Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

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Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by wrigglybear » 2008-11-02 03:22pm

Here is a scenario:

The Imperium's physical opponent's all vanish in some sort of crazy warp storm (Chaos is still alive and well, being such an integral part of the Imperium, however chaos space marines are gone) which also serves to open a wormhole into the Galactic Empire's galaxy.

Spotting what he thinks is a galaxy ripe for conquering, Emporer Palpatine orders the Empire attack the Imperium of man. The Wormhole is located where the Eye of Terror is/was. Note that Palpatine, while wanting to destroy the Imperium, does not want a galaxy that has been completely burnt and destroyed; the Empire does intend to occupy enough to make such an endeavour worthwhile.

How would the Empire defeat the Imperium? How would they overcome Chaos? How would they conquer this new galaxy? Or would the Empire's forces be violently repulsed by the horror that is the 40k universe?

All these questions and more in the following thread... :lol:

(Sorry if this is done elsewhere, if so, please point me in the right direction... thanks.)

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-11-02 03:49pm

Perhaps you missed the STICKY at the top of this forum...

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123079
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-02 06:20pm

Assuming Palpatine orders his most competent subordinates to spearhead the conquest of the Imperium, that means Chaos gets a VERY palatable selection of converts. For example, Thrawn will probably come to Tzeentch's service, under the mistaken impression he can manipulate Chaos to further his goals, even as Tzeentch manipulates him to Chaos' own designs. Vader will undoubtably be tempted by the powers the Chaos gods offer; he might serve Khorne (after all, he has quite a temper), Tzeentch, Nurgle (Vader's injuries basically transformed him into a walking corpse), Slaanesh (he turned to the Dark Side for the sake of a woman he loved/lusted for), or all four as a Champion of Chaos Undivided.

I'm assuming Palpatine will remain in the 'Star Wars' galaxy and remain in control of the Empire, which means by the time Vader and/or one of the grand admirals receive the Chaos gods' blessings and return from the Eye of Terror, it's too late; other threads have shown that while 'Star Wars' technology give the Jedi and Sith war-winning advantages in speed, communications, industrial capacity, firepower, and shields, a high-level psyker can ass-rape any lone Jedi or Sith master. Vader will use the Chaos gods' powers to deal with the greater threat (Palpatine, whose soul will be his lunch), and then deal with the Imperium at his leisure.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-02 06:25pm

Sidewinder wrote:Thrawn will probably come to Tzeentch's service, under the mistaken impression he can manipulate Chaos to further his goals
Err... Why? Why would he just not see the amount of eating babies involved, and order his soldiers to open fire?

Chaos corruption ain't magi- well, it is magic, but it's not unlimited or perfect. Plenty of ambitious men have avoided turning to Chaos.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Samuel » 2008-11-02 06:58pm

And Thrawn has shown that he is more than willing to blow things up if he can't understand them.

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Eleventh Century Remnant » 2008-11-02 08:02pm

More to the point, I have a real problem with the concept
The Imperium's physical opponent's all vanish
.

Do they not, in fact, form part of the Imperium's strategic defence in a situation like this? A protective layer of unpredictable madness and random violence, pretty much guaranteed to allow Murphy free rein with an invader's battle plan?
Also, consider the problems of administering the conquered territory, still under threat from xenos, loonies and chaos madmen- after destroying the existing power structure and removing every lever the Imperium uses to control it's own people.

That and there now exists a full, detailed map of a sector, thanks to Dark Heresy, which in connection with that little gem in the Battlefleet Gothic rules about the size of an average sector fleet scares the crap out of me. I suppose that's what you get after building away for ten millennia, but we have a hundred and fifty-ish world sector being protected by a fifty to seventy-five ship battlefleet.

I've heard both versions, that that fifty to seventy five figure includes frigates and destroyers and that it does not, but assuming that it does- as it seems to by BFG- then we're looking at an IoM sector fleet containing maybe twenty cruisers and battlecruisers, five to seven battleships and grand cruisers, and twelve to eighteen three to four ship escort squadrons.

Considering that the difference in combat effectiveness between a Firestorm frigate and Emperor battleship is about an order of magnitude, not the five or six that separate the lethality of an ISD from it's own smaller escorts. At best, the sixteen hundred combat unit Imperial Starfleet sector fleet is spread over about 51,000 systems- and how many of those ships are no more than pirate hunters, with LTL or a handful of MTL at most, and how many real ships of force?

Even with the oft- quoted million words tagline (and another thing the Calixis sector does is indicate that the IoM can expand at a respectable generational pace, it could be a lot larger) then that's still numerical parity at least in ships in the planet- killing range, and superiority in effective mid- range smaller craft.

If the IoM is as large as some of the wilder pronouncements, the invading Imperial Starfleet could be outnumbered hundreds to one.

That and I am not convinced about the disparity in skill. In equipment, yes, in operational analysis maybe, but when you get right down to it the Imperial Starfleet is short of enemies. Rebels and pirates aren't a serious military threat, and the Clone Wars were about it.
The IoM has a lot more enemies and its forces are committed to battle a lot more often, even those that have no personal experience have a greater institutional memory of combat.
They won't be structured about it, but they will figure the odds in their own way, recognise their own advantages and try to make use of them.

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 02:37am

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:Do they not, in fact, form part of the Imperium's strategic defence in a situation like this? A protective layer of unpredictable madness and random violence, pretty much guaranteed to allow Murphy free rein with an invader's battle plan?
This is basically to stop the Deceiver toddling up to Coruscant, walking into Palpatine's office like Yoda, and punching the Emperor's face through the back of his head, then impersonating him. This is pretty much what he has done to the Imperium, save that there's no one figure who's comparable to the Emperor in importance (save the Emperor, and impersonating him would be troublesome) to assume the identity of, so he lurks in the background on Mars somewhere.
Also, consider the problems of administering the conquered territory, still under threat from xenos, loonies and chaos madmen- after destroying the existing power structure and removing every lever the Imperium uses to control it's own people.
It doesn't need to. Planetary governors would defect in droves: "More trade, better FTL transport and communications, better protection than the Imperium can offer in a month of Sundays (can we say 'planetary shields') better medical treatment... where do I sign?"

Hell, they even have a Sacrifical God Man - Emperor too ("The attempt on my life has left me scarred, and deformed, but my resolve has never been stronger!") with which you could even justify persecuring witches if you wanted. Though I doubt anyone would want to stress the difference to the common pious folk...
That and there now exists a full, detailed map of a sector, thanks to Dark Heresy, which in connection with that little gem in the Battlefleet Gothic rules about the size of an average sector fleet scares the crap out of me. I suppose that's what you get after building away for ten millennia, but we have a hundred and fifty-ish world sector being protected by a fifty to seventy-five ship battlefleet.

I've heard both versions, that that fifty to seventy five figure includes frigates and destroyers and that it does not, but assuming that it does- as it seems to by BFG- then we're looking at an IoM sector fleet containing maybe twenty cruisers and battlecruisers, five to seven battleships and grand cruisers, and twelve to eighteen three to four ship escort squadrons.
This isn't so bad...

Compare to: "The Empire's standard Sector Group strength was only twenty-four Star Destroyers. They were able to exercise control over an entire system with a single Imperial-class ship. They were able to overwhelm anything up to a Class Four planetary defense with one-third of a Sector Group."

To control an area consisting of thirty six full member worlds, and 40,000 settled dependancies.

Yeah, it's not as if 40k's unique in that kind of minimalism.

Also, Calixis is far from typical. Notice how it's choc-a-bloc with Inquisitors?
Considering that the difference in combat effectiveness between a Firestorm frigate and Emperor battleship is about an order of magnitude, not the five or six that separate the lethality of an ISD from it's own smaller escorts. At best, the sixteen hundred combat unit Imperial Starfleet sector fleet is spread over about 51,000 systems- and how many of those ships are no more than pirate hunters, with LTL or a handful of MTL at most, and how many real ships of force?
Oh, I see. They have craploads, let's be honest. And Galactic Empire ships are just flat-out-better in many ways.
Even with the oft- quoted million words tagline (and another thing the Calixis sector does is indicate that the IoM can expand at a respectable generational pace, it could be a lot larger) then that's still numerical parity at least in ships in the planet- killing range, and superiority in effective mid- range smaller craft.
It could also be about a million worlds. While I'm sympathetic to maximalism and all, one million worlds has been a pretty constant line in warhammer 40,000 from first to fifth edition.
If the IoM is as large as some of the wilder pronouncements, the invading Imperial Starfleet could be outnumbered hundreds to one.
Bollocks.
That and I am not convinced about the disparity in skill. In equipment, yes, in operational analysis maybe, but when you get right down to it the Imperial Starfleet is short of enemies. Rebels and pirates aren't a serious military threat, and the Clone Wars were about it.
The IoM has a lot more enemies and its forces are committed to battle a lot more often, even those that have no personal experience have a greater institutional memory of combat.
That combat is radically different, and far less dangerous. For a start, hyperdrive is vastly faster, and more accurate. A hyperdrive equipped ship can plop into place anywhere in a system. A warp drive ship can do that, if you want to risk your soul, but normally has to re-enter realspace at least a day's travel from the primary.
They won't be structured about it, but they will figure the odds in their own way, recognise their own advantages and try to make use of them.
By defecting to the guys who can give them ships not requiring the same hordes of 'human fuel' and FTL drives that go through hell?

Seriously, they defect to the Tau on a regular enough basis. This is the same. But bigger. And much much stronger and more impressive. And more culturally acceptable.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-11-03 03:41am

Chris OFarrell wrote:Perhaps you missed the STICKY at the top of this forum...

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123079
Has there not been new information since, though? Connor spoke in an earlier thread of vastly larger numbers for 40k than had been reckoned earlier.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-11-03 03:51am

Sidewinder wrote:I'm assuming Palpatine will remain in the 'Star Wars' galaxy and remain in control of the Empire, which means by the time Vader and/or one of the grand admirals receive the Chaos gods' blessings and return from the Eye of Terror, it's too late; other threads have shown that while 'Star Wars' technology give the Jedi and Sith war-winning advantages in speed, communications, industrial capacity, firepower, and shields, a high-level psyker can ass-rape any lone Jedi or Sith master. Vader will use the Chaos gods' powers to deal with the greater threat (Palpatine, whose soul will be his lunch), and then deal with the Imperium at his leisure.
What kind of Psyker do you need to take on someone of Palpatine's magnitude? As far as I recall, even the Apex Twins have no demonstrated capabilities in excess of his teleporting over lightyears, destroying fleets with energy storms/wormholes, siphoning energy off entire worlds, &c. Leaving out gods, high-end Daemons and the God-Emperor, peace be with him, Palpatine is pretty powerful even on a 40k scale. Even ordinary Jedi have shown pretty impressive feats (shoving Star Destroyers over lightminutes - we do not see this terribly often in 40k either); granted, those were special circumstances, but Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Master ever and has both high-level acolytes and hordes of lesser disciples to call upon to augment his powers. They could drop a Thought Bomb on him if it should come to that.

There are also the matters of precog and conventional defences/surveillance methods (Palpatine did not fill the Navy with spies and Commissars in order to see them all turn to Chaos without prior warning). Palpatine will know if his fleet has switched allegiance when it comes back.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-11-03 03:55am

NecronLord wrote:This is basically to stop the Deceiver toddling up to Coruscant, walking into Palpatine's office like Yoda, and punching the Emperor's face through the back of his head, then impersonating him. This is pretty much what he has done to the Imperium, save that there's no one figure who's comparable to the Emperor in importance (save the Emperor, and impersonating him would be troublesome) to assume the identity of, so he lurks in the background on Mars somewhere.
I am not too up to date on the Necron fluff; what are C'tan capabilities as they stand? (I know they were insanely powerful in the Lost Aeons of Whenever, but does all that apply in the modern setting?)
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 04:55am

Darth Hoth wrote:What kind of Psyker do you need to take on someone of Palpatine's magnitude? As far as I recall, even the Apex Twins have no demonstrated capabilities in excess of his teleporting over lightyears,
Err? What? The closest I recall to that is the projection technique he taught Luke, which was hardly the same as teleporting.

There are, incidentally, non-sapient species of pseudo-crocodile in 40K that can teleport like that. As well as various other creatures. I don't recall human psykers doing it, though.
destroying fleets with energy storms/wormholes,
Not that I'm aware of. But psychic weapons that one-shot imperial cruisers have been seen.
siphoning energy off entire worlds,
Unquantified.
&c. Leaving out gods, high-end Daemons and the God-Emperor, peace be with him, Palpatine is pretty powerful even on a 40k scale. Even ordinary Jedi have shown pretty impressive feats (shoving Star Destroyers over lightminutes - we do not see this terribly often in 40k either); granted, those were special circumstances, but Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Master ever and has both high-level acolytes and hordes of lesser disciples to call upon to augment his powers. They could drop a Thought Bomb on him if it should come to that.
The Thought Bomb was a lost technique, as far as I'm aware. None but Lord Kaan ever used it.

And it's not terribly powerful anyway. No more so than a nuke. It is notable because a thousand years later, it was an awesome source of power for Jerec, not because it was in itself a war-winning weapon.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 04:58am

Darth Hoth wrote:I am not too up to date on the Necron fluff; what are C'tan capabilities as they stand? (I know they were insanely powerful in the Lost Aeons of Whenever, but does all that apply in the modern setting?)
Vast and undefined. However, given that they're as physically threatening as the likes of wraithlords, they'd crush him. Sorry, but even DE Wankatine¹ isn't really that formidable. He's fast, but that's about it. He is still not lightsaber proof.

¹ Indeed, when I actually got around to reading DE, I was gratified to see how well done the lightsaber duel at the end was. Much more believable realistic than some of the absurd things they get up to in the prequels.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 05:16am

For more clarity, there's three textual examples of the Deceiver in combat (which is, amusingly, more than the Nightbringer) in two, he's essentially very agile - as fast as a blur, and similar hyperbole, and able to leap across a hundred meters in a single bound, as well as strong (being able to make noticable dents in meter thick titan-grade armour) and able to burn through the same, Forbidden Planet style (of course, we now know he could also phase through such a barrier, but as he says in the same story, he considers melodrama a high art) and able to rip high end military servitors to bits with his bare hands. He can survive a high-end laspistol shot to the face with no real issues.

Beyond that, one's left with interpreting things from the game, and comparative power. From those, he has considerable mental powers, can fly, phase shift, function as a phase sword, drain the life from his enemies (according to some accounts, destroying souls in the process, though it'd be entirely author fiat as to whether that effect would work on Palpatine anyway).

The Nightbringer has some different abilities, of course, but there's no indication whether the Deciever does not do similar things (telekinesis, 'lightning' attacks) due to taste, or is simply unable.

However, the key things are similar speed to Palpatine at his DE peak, possibly somewhat less, possibly more, considerable resistance to lasers (and a phase-shifting ability) and an ability to generate similar door-cutting heat to a Lightsaber.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Eleventh Century Remnant » 2008-11-03 05:23am

Planetary governors would defect in droves: "More trade, better FTL transport and communications, better protection than the Imperium can offer in a month of Sundays (can we say 'planetary shields') better medical treatment... where do I sign?"
I'd like to believe this, I'd like to have that much faith in the essential rationality of the human race, but I think the ecclesiarchy, who certainly will be stressing the difference to the common pious folk, and the AdMech whose monopoly and power base are directly threatened, have their claws in too deep- and so many of the Galactic Empire's political class were cartoon characters, some literally but you know what I mean.

We're basically talking about an unquantifiable here anyway, yes? The level of real loyalty/devotional stupidity, delete as appropriate, in the IoM system. Which is certainly going to vary from place to place anyway. I can see a patchwork response, some digging their heels in, some throwing themselves into the arms of the invader, a lot more hedging their bets.

Anyway, even after that, the newly administered military district still has to be protected from counterattack, weeded out of diehards, and those promises have to be made good on. Logistically, it's going to be relatively easy, biggest headache being what to do with this mass of dead, obsolete IoM technology, but psychologically, re-education will be a massive problem. Financially, how long is it likely to take before these conquered territories give a worthwhile return on investment?

What GE agencies actually exist to do all this? if it's COMPNOR and the ISB, who are not really known for their light- handed, masterfully dextrous approach to anything, then that could be counterproductive, breeding rebels and resisters.
To control an area consisting of thirty six full member worlds, and 40,000 settled dependancies.

Yeah, it's not as if 40k's unique in that kind of minimalism.

Also, Calixis is far from typical. Notice how it's choc-a-bloc with Inquisitors?
Chommell sector, though, is atypical; thirty-six member worlds is a very low slice of the supposed million full member states of the Republic- which may be multi- world in themselves, and the forty thousand dependencies all have to be monitored and protected.

I think the force density's different- a hundred and fifty worlds, seventy-five ships, versus forty thousand worlds, four hundred ships (Carrack and larger) because the fundamental tactic is different;
the Imperial Starfleet's biggest threat is rogue elements of itself, logistically speaking it could be a lot larger and the limiting factor on the number of ships is, I think, the number of reliable men available to command them. At that, it still goes wrong sometimes- the fleet still has it's Ozzels and Zaarins.
They can afford to depend on rapid response, having the sensor coverage of their own turf and the speed to go to wherever they're needed.

The Imperial Navy of the IoM has a lot more real enemies, and can't react that fast. They need much higher force density to protect their territory, and at that it still doesn't work too well.

As for the inquisitors, that's the point I'm trying to make. (Militarily they're irrelevant, it's not as if they all brought their own black ships or anything.) Calixis is frontier space, relatively well developed for all that, and it has more than it's share of wierd problems, social kinks and dangerous aliens that the Inquisition are there to deal with.
The morning after the invasion, all those problems drop into the lap of the Imperial military governor.
Bollocks.
Which are precisely what I was trying to cover, by going with the million worlds estimate as a first approximation which the numbers are based off, and mentioning that some people, to wit Connor, think there could be much more of it than that. I think he mentioned "Could be many more, possibly into the billions".

Some of the ships in that sixteen hundred figure for the Imperial sector group are glorified patrol boats; Corellian Corvettes are not ships of force by any stretch, and there are a lot of similar marginals. Until someobody- probably me- goes through the Imperial Sourcebook and works out what ships fit into what formation where, and adds it all up, this isn't going to be any more than a rough estimate, but I reckon that at least a half of the Imperial Starfleet sector group are basically picket boats.

Galactic Empire ships are flat out better in many, many ways- in terms of raw firepower I reckon an Imperator is more or less a battleship, but refined firepower, after working in differences in gun pointing technology, sensors and ECM? The disparity in effectiveness should be very high. This could start to look like quality vs. quantity.

Defections? Yes, there'll be some.

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 05:33am

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote: I'd like to believe this, I'd like to have that much faith in the essential rationality of the human race, but I think the ecclesiarchy, who certainly will be stressing the difference to the common pious folk, and the AdMech whose monopoly and power base are directly threatened, have their claws in too deep- and so many of the Galactic Empire's political class were cartoon characters, some literally but you know what I mean.
Planetary governors and starship crews in the Tau region are known to defect. To a more offensive society (aliens on top, mysterious ruling caste, vs humans on top, loveable Emperor), with less to offer. It's logical to assume that more people will do so to a more ideologically correct society with far more to offer
We're basically talking about an unquantifiable here anyway, yes? The level of real loyalty/devotional stupidity, delete as appropriate, in the IoM system. Which is certainly going to vary from place to place anyway. I can see a patchwork response, some digging their heels in, some throwing themselves into the arms of the invader, a lot more hedging their bets.
Quite. And when the Empire provides planetary shields for those that defect, others will begin to consider it... And so on.
Anyway, even after that, the newly administered military district still has to be protected from counterattack, weeded out of diehards, and those promises have to be made good on. Logistically, it's going to be relatively easy, biggest headache being what to do with this mass of dead, obsolete IoM technology
Roll in CIS style self-replicating production centres, and replace it completely.
, but psychologically, re-education will be a massive problem. Financially, how long is it likely to take before these conquered territories give a worthwhile return on investment?
Some time; on the other hand, that applies with any invasion.
What GE agencies actually exist to do all this? if it's COMPNOR and the ISB, who are not really known for their light- handed, masterfully dextrous approach to anything, then that could be counterproductive, breeding rebels and resisters.
COMPNOR runs children's groups and such. It's certainly got a nicer face than we see.

And frankly, they're both bunnies and kittens compared to the Adeptus Arbities and the like.
Chommell sector, though, is atypical; thirty-six member worlds is a very low slice of the supposed million full member states of the Republic- which may be multi- world in themselves, and the forty thousand dependencies all have to be monitored and protected.
Well, yes. It is supposedly somewhat sparse, IIRC.
I think the force density's different- a hundred and fifty worlds, seventy-five ships, versus forty thousand worlds, four hundred ships (Carrack and larger) because the fundamental tactic is different;
the Imperial Starfleet's biggest threat is rogue elements of itself, logistically speaking it could be a lot larger and the limiting factor on the number of ships is, I think, the number of reliable men available to command them. At that, it still goes wrong sometimes- the fleet still has it's Ozzels and Zaarins.
They can afford to depend on rapid response, having the sensor coverage of their own turf and the speed to go to wherever they're needed.

The Imperial Navy of the IoM has a lot more real enemies, and can't react that fast. They need much higher force density to protect their territory, and at that it still doesn't work too well.

As for the inquisitors, that's the point I'm trying to make. (Militarily they're irrelevant, it's not as if they all brought their own black ships or anything.) Calixis is frontier space, relatively well developed for all that, and it has more than it's share of wierd problems, social kinks and dangerous aliens that the Inquisition are there to deal with.
The morning after the invasion, all those problems drop into the lap of the Imperial military governor.
The Galactic Empire has similar agencies, for what it's worth, though they're less experienced. However, having decent communications and travel times will work wonders for a lot of the Imperium's problems. (Also, I now have an urge to run a Dark Heresy campaign where you work for Inquisitor Jerec in a post-conquest galaxy.)
Some of the ships in that sixteen hundred figure for the Imperial sector group are glorified patrol boats; Corellian Corvettes are not ships of force by any stretch, and there are a lot of similar marginals. Until someobody- probably me- goes through the Imperial Sourcebook and works out what ships fit into what formation where, and adds it all up, this isn't going to be any more than a rough estimate, but I reckon that at least a half of the Imperial Starfleet sector group are basically picket boats.
I wouldn't call the Imperial Sourcebook the be-all and end-all, mind.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-11-03 06:20am

Here's a question.

Chaos has most of its support base cut out, which means there are now WAY less people feeding emotional power into the Warp and them directly, that they might be able to use to sustain themselves.

Doesn't that mean that the Emperor now may well have the opportunity to nuke them? The loyal Imperiums citizens souls are supposedly protected by the Emperor and power HIM to an extent, but with the EOT populations apparently gone as well as huge chunks elsewhere, won't that dramatically weaken the Chaos Gods?
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 06:31am

Chris OFarrell wrote: Doesn't that mean that the Emperor now may well have the opportunity to nuke them? The loyal Imperiums citizens souls are supposedly protected by the Emperor
Almost certainly a comforting lie. The Eldar think human souls go straight to chaos and dissolve. While ressurections have been observed, that's not necesserily possible for the ordinary loyal joe.
and power HIM to an extent, but with the EOT populations apparently gone as well as huge chunks elsewhere, won't that dramatically weaken the Chaos Gods?
Yes. He'll probably reach into them and tear their rectums out of their mouths.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-11-03 06:40am

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:What kind of Psyker do you need to take on someone of Palpatine's magnitude? As far as I recall, even the Apex Twins have no demonstrated capabilities in excess of his teleporting over lightyears,
Err? What? The closest I recall to that is the projection technique he taught Luke, which was hardly the same as teleporting.

There are, incidentally, non-sapient species of pseudo-crocodile in 40K that can teleport like that. As well as various other creatures. I don't recall human psykers doing it, though.
Assuming that I recall correctly, the wormhole that swallowed up Luke in the first Dark Empire issue landed him in a starship not too far from Byss, in the Deep Core.
destroying fleets with energy storms/wormholes,
Not that I'm aware of. But psychic weapons that one-shot imperial cruisers have been seen.
Hm, that would be at least comparable, possibly more powerful in sheer destructiveness (I seem to recall Connor making a rather good case for 40k ships being more durable than SW equivalents). Are they commonplace, or oneshot superweapons/lost relics/whatever?
siphoning energy off entire worlds,
Unquantified.
Well, all right.
&c. Leaving out gods, high-end Daemons and the God-Emperor, peace be with him, Palpatine is pretty powerful even on a 40k scale. Even ordinary Jedi have shown pretty impressive feats (shoving Star Destroyers over lightminutes - we do not see this terribly often in 40k either); granted, those were special circumstances, but Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Master ever and has both high-level acolytes and hordes of lesser disciples to call upon to augment his powers. They could drop a Thought Bomb on him if it should come to that.
The Thought Bomb was a lost technique, as far as I'm aware. None but Lord Kaan ever used it.

And it's not terribly powerful anyway. No more so than a nuke. It is notable because a thousand years later, it was an awesome source of power for Jerec, not because it was in itself a war-winning weapon.
Is there not a DESB line floating around out there saying that Palpatine had mastered all the ancient Force techniques? If so, that would include the Thought Bomb. And the point of the weapon was not it being physically destructive, but that its psychic component could not be defended against by Force means; it struck at some deeper level, trapping the souls in that cocoon-like silvery thing (or at least that was how I recalled it; it was a while since I last read the appropriate Dark Forces chapter/Jedi vs Sith comic). I find it unlikely it would not be effective against Vader, Chaos-amped or no, when it could claim the lives of thousands of Dark Jedi before him, including a dozen or so Dark Lords, whose combined power was enough to grant absolute omnipotence.

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 07:12am

Darth Hoth wrote:Assuming that I recall correctly, the wormhole that swallowed up Luke in the first Dark Empire issue landed him in a starship not too far from Byss, in the Deep Core.
It physically picked him up and deposited him on a dungeon ship "The storm funneled us into some kind of hyperspace vehicle, Artoo", which then travelled ('it looks like we've arrived') to Byss. It's not clear how far away that was from Coruscant initially. It's possible the ship was merely in orbit of Coruscant (the Imperial Civil War was still on, it's quite possible for such a ship to be in orbit of Coruscant) An interesting question would be was Palpatine still on Byss when he did that? Presumably so, but that would give his force storms vast range, which seems a bit odd, given that he didn't use them more often, though that could simply be because they were draining.
Hm, that would be at least comparable, possibly more powerful in sheer destructiveness (I seem to recall Connor making a rather good case for 40k ships being more durable than SW equivalents). Are they commonplace, or oneshot superweapons/lost relics/whatever?
It was a construct built by the Word Bearers to re-arrange a planet's surface catacylsmically. As something of an afterthought, it could annihalate Imperial ships that tried to attack it.
Well, all right.
To clarify, as far as we know, he just made everyone on Byss loose some of thier vitality, rather than eating their souls like that KotOR II villain did (AFAIK). And empowered himself somehow, by doing that.
Is there not a DESB line floating around out there saying that Palpatine had mastered all the ancient Force techniques?
That sounds a lot like Hyperbole. For a start, that would include ones for which there was no record... I think it more likely that he mastered everything in Sith (and possibly Jedi) records and holocrons. Which would, mind you, probably include at least theoretical details of the Thought Bomb, as it was supposedly in Revan's (destroyed) Holocron (*Mutter-grumble*) accessed by Darth Bane and thus presumably in Darth Bane's own, which Palpatine presumably had, as Darth Bane's heir.
If so, that would include the Thought Bomb. And the point of the weapon was not it being physically destructive, but that its psychic component could not be defended against by Force means; it struck at some deeper level, trapping the souls in that cocoon-like silvery thing (or at least that was how I recalled it; it was a while since I last read the appropriate Dark Forces chapter/Jedi vs Sith comic). I find it unlikely it would not be effective against Vader, Chaos-amped or no, when it could claim the lives of thousands of Dark Jedi before him, including a dozen or so Dark Lords, whose combined power was enough to grant absolute omnipotence.
Mmm. Probably. But remember, Lord Kaan needed a whole army to stabilise (the contributors not only gave him power, but also did mental work in shaping it, according to the DF:Jedi Knight book) and create a thought bomb. Palpatine's dark-siders are deceptively numerous, but there don't seem to be hundreds of them. And as far as we know, the creator has to be within its lethal radius...

But yes, of course Palpatine could kill Vader, any number of ways. On the other hand, I doubt Vader would fall easily - the only things I imagine are likely to turn him to serve another would be restoration of himself or Padme, and Chaos wouldn't grant the former, and cannot grant the latter.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-11-03 07:17am

NecronLord wrote:
, but psychologically, re-education will be a massive problem. Financially, how long is it likely to take before these conquered territories give a worthwhile return on investment?
Some time; on the other hand, that applies with any invasion.
Any occupation of 40k space will probably be a major economic loss; the defence/policing expenditures will be murderous, even disregarding the conquest itself. Of course, 40k does have certain technology the Empire might want to get its hands on, but overall integrating their economy would be a massive drain. The German reunification might give some hint, only the Imperium is essentially mediaeval in its power/social structure.
What GE agencies actually exist to do all this? if it's COMPNOR and the ISB, who are not really known for their light- handed, masterfully dextrous approach to anything, then that could be counterproductive, breeding rebels and resisters.
COMPNOR runs children's groups and such. It's certainly got a nicer face than we see.

And frankly, they're both bunnies and kittens compared to the Adeptus Arbities and the like.
This guy must be kidding; the ISB will look heavy-handed compared to the Arbites/Inquisition/whatever? They are basically your bog-standard late 20th century Communist secret police, per the MfS; Imperium standards are a combination of the worst features of Judge Dredd and Nineteen Eighty-Four. . . on a nice planet.

COMPNOR is the vote-winner/corporatist part of the NEW Order, shamelessly ripped off from our world's National Socialist German Reich. The majority of its functions are Gleischchaltung-like, such as coordinating education and the arts and heading up the "grassroot" movement (youth corps, big flag-flapping rallies, monthly journals, &c). They have only very limited domestic intelligence duties, certainly not direct enforcement (which is left to Intelligence, ISB et al).
Chommell sector, though, is atypical; thirty-six member worlds is a very low slice of the supposed million full member states of the Republic- which may be multi- world in themselves, and the forty thousand dependencies all have to be monitored and protected.
Well, yes. It is supposedly somewhat sparse, IIRC.
Exact AOTC: ICS quote was "lightly populated", I believe.
I think the force density's different- a hundred and fifty worlds, seventy-five ships, versus forty thousand worlds, four hundred ships (Carrack and larger) because the fundamental tactic is different;
the Imperial Starfleet's biggest threat is rogue elements of itself, logistically speaking it could be a lot larger and the limiting factor on the number of ships is, I think, the number of reliable men available to command them. At that, it still goes wrong sometimes- the fleet still has it's Ozzels and Zaarins.
They can afford to depend on rapid response, having the sensor coverage of their own turf and the speed to go to wherever they're needed.

The Imperial Navy of the IoM has a lot more real enemies, and can't react that fast. They need much higher force density to protect their territory, and at that it still doesn't work too well.

As for the inquisitors, that's the point I'm trying to make. (Militarily they're irrelevant, it's not as if they all brought their own black ships or anything.) Calixis is frontier space, relatively well developed for all that, and it has more than it's share of wierd problems, social kinks and dangerous aliens that the Inquisition are there to deal with.
The morning after the invasion, all those problems drop into the lap of the Imperial military governor.
The Galactic Empire has similar agencies, for what it's worth, though they're less experienced. However, having decent communications and travel times will work wonders for a lot of the Imperium's problems.
The Empire has a virtual menagerie of secret intelligence/security agencies, of which a sample includes Imperial Intelligence, the ISB, the Prophets of the Dark Side, the Secret Order of the Emperor, and the Inquisitorius (essentially a weaker, nicer version of the 40k Inquisition). With their advantages (working communications, somewhat more manageable bureaucracies {yes, there are turf wars, but those of the Imperium make them look trivial} and actual systematic use of science and scientific methods) they should easily be able to replicate the work of the Inquisition. The one thing they would have difficulties with would be Psykers/Chaos influence and assorted weird shit, and they could adapt to that, especially as it grows much less troublesome without an Eye of Terror.
(Also, I now have an urge to run a Dark Heresy campaign where you work for Inquisitor Jerec in a post-conquest galaxy.)
Sounds interesting. . .
Some of the ships in that sixteen hundred figure for the Imperial sector group are glorified patrol boats; Corellian Corvettes are not ships of force by any stretch, and there are a lot of similar marginals. Until someobody- probably me- goes through the Imperial Sourcebook and works out what ships fit into what formation where, and adds it all up, this isn't going to be any more than a rough estimate, but I reckon that at least a half of the Imperial Starfleet sector group are basically picket boats.
I wouldn't call the Imperial Sourcebook the be-all and end-all, mind.
The Imperial Sourcebook was ostensibly written by Major Arhul Hextrophon of the Rebel Alliance, a propagandist and not too credible a source, who used Imperial documents of dubious quality in his research; Publius likes to remark how the garrisoning of one peaceful planet took the equivalent of what Hextrophon reported as the total ground forces of a much larger area. The book's numbers are to be treated with caution at best.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-11-03 07:33am

Darth Hoth wrote:The Empire has a virtual menagerie of secret intelligence/security agencies, of which a sample includes Imperial Intelligence, the ISB, the Prophets of the Dark Side, the Secret Order of the Emperor, and the Inquisitorius (essentially a weaker, nicer version of the 40k Inquisition). With their advantages (working communications, somewhat more manageable bureaucracies {yes, there are turf wars, but those of the Imperium make them look trivial} and actual systematic use of science and scientific methods) they should easily be able to replicate the work of the Inquisition. The one thing they would have difficulties with would be Psykers/Chaos influence and assorted weird shit, and they could adapt to that, especially as it grows much less troublesome without an Eye of Terror.
For an added bonus, there's an entire faction (Recongregators) in the Imperial Inquisition who know the Imperium is a failed state, and want to start over with something new. If they didn't outright defect, you can be sure some of them would forward pertinent information about chaos and such to the invasion forces.

Though thinking of the 'Inquisitorious' Jerec is just about the last person who'd get to go to another galaxy full of strange stuff. Between being probably the most educated of Palpatine's non-Sith darksiders, and a completely disloyal megalomaniac, that would likely end badly.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Teleros » 2008-11-03 09:32am

[quote]However, the key things are similar speed to Palpatine at his DE peak, possibly somewhat less, possibly more, considerable resistance to lasers (and a phase-shifting ability) and an ability to generate similar door-cutting heat to a Lightsaber.[/quote[
You're forgetting the whole "nearly invulnerable" thing too ;) . Between re-building the necrodermis, phase shifting to avoid lightsabre beams (and Force attacks?), and really being a magical energy being (well, sort of :P ), a C'Tan is pretty damn hard to kill. There's also the fact that Palpatine may be killed by the necrodermis exploding should he win in combat - remember Khaine's fight against the Nightbringer...

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-11-03 10:12am

NecronLord wrote:It physically picked him up and deposited him on a dungeon ship "The storm funneled us into some kind of hyperspace vehicle, Artoo", which then travelled ('it looks like we've arrived') to Byss. It's not clear how far away that was from Coruscant initially. It's possible the ship was merely in orbit of Coruscant (the Imperial Civil War was still on, it's quite possible for such a ship to be in orbit of Coruscant)
Are the quotes from the audiobook? They do not look familiar at first glance. But, granted, we cannot know for certain where the ship was waiting.
An interesting question would be was Palpatine still on Byss when he did that? Presumably so, but that would give his force storms vast range, which seems a bit odd, given that he didn't use them more often, though that could simply be because they were draining.
Perhaps he was afraid of losing control of them, given how dangerous they could be even to him? I do believe, though, that the DESB mentions that his acolytes are trained in sdirecting them once he conjures them up, so that would appear to indicate that he has used them before, only not on the battlefield.
It was a construct built by the Word Bearers to re-arrange a planet's surface catacylsmically. As something of an afterthought, it could annihalate Imperial ships that tried to attack it.
Ah. So it was pretty rare, then, and not a natural ability - a "superweapon" perhaps comparable to the Eclipse (rearranging surfaces sounds rather close to what its onboard superlaser does)?
To clarify, as far as we know, he just made everyone on Byss loose some of thier vitality, rather than eating their souls like that KotOR II villain did (AFAIK). And empowered himself somehow, by doing that.
As I understood it, he was using a weaker version of that same power to drain them over time without depleting them completely - milking the cow as opposed to butchering it, I suppose. This is, admittedly, partly conjecture on my part.
That sounds a lot like Hyperbole. For a start, that would include ones for which there was no record... I think it more likely that he mastered everything in Sith (and possibly Jedi) records and holocrons. Which would, mind you, probably include at least theoretical details of the Thought Bomb, as it was supposedly in Revan's (destroyed) Holocron (*Mutter-grumble*) accessed by Darth Bane and thus presumably in Darth Bane's own, which Palpatine presumably had, as Darth Bane's heir.
I hunted down the quote; it was actually the Dark Side Sourcebook, not the DESB:
Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.
This to be combined with the DESB's substantial accounts of his in-depth studies of obscure Force disciplines. It does not mention any power outright, of course, but the Thought Bomb was "known" and, as noted, documented.
Mmm. Probably. But remember, Lord Kaan needed a whole army to stabilise (the contributors not only gave him power, but also did mental work in shaping it, according to the DF:Jedi Knight book) and create a thought bomb. Palpatine's dark-siders are deceptively numerous, but there don't seem to be hundreds of them. And as far as we know, the creator has to be within its lethal radius...
Is that strictly necessary? I thought Kaan was going mad by then, trapped in the cave as he was, and just wanted to go out with a bang. As for the participation, I shall have to re-read that story.

On numbers, there does not appear to be any hard data; Wookiee says that the total number exceeded six hundred, but that clause is unsourced and most likely fanon. On a maximalist note, I debated a guy who claimed they must number in the millions, as the Official Encyclopedia said Palpatine intended for them to replace the planetary governors; given the canon, this might mean literally billions if that statement is true and to be taken at face value. However, that would go against more or less the entire implied scope of Force-sensitivity in the rest of the EU. Anyone with access to the Encyclopedia who could check?
But yes, of course Palpatine could kill Vader, any number of ways. On the other hand, I doubt Vader would fall easily - the only things I imagine are likely to turn him to serve another would be restoration of himself or Padme, and Chaos wouldn't grant the former, and cannot grant the latter.
Oh, I would think that they could clone or shapeshift in some version of Padmé for him; the issue would be whether he could tell it was a fake, and if so whether he could do so straight away. Of course, they could also just make him empty promises; it is not like Palpatine's story in Ep III did have anything substantial to qualify it, and Anakin/Vader is notoriously gullible at times.
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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by Sidewinder » 2008-11-03 02:24pm

NecronLord wrote:On the other hand, I doubt Vader would fall easily - the only things I imagine are likely to turn him to serve another would be restoration of himself or Padme, and Chaos wouldn't grant the former, and cannot grant the latter.
Vader is repeatedly portrayed as plotting to overthrow Palpatine and rule the Empire himself. All a Chaos god needs to do is say, "I'll give you powers beyond the pittance you now have, powers you may use to overthrow your master and rule two galaxies yourself," and Vader will begin negotiations.

As for restoration, I believe one of the stories in 'Let the Galaxy Burn' describes a Chaos Space Marine having a hand replaced by one made of crystal. Chaos gods should have the ability to give Vader new lungs, new arms and legs, but they won't be human lungs, arms and legs, they'll be... gills... tentacles... birdlike talons or something, along with "bonuses" like wings and extra heads.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: Galactic Empire Vs Imperium of Man (Vs Chaos)

Post by wrigglybear » 2008-11-03 02:59pm

The goal of removing all the Imperium's enemies in this particular scenario is to allow it focus on one goal (in this case The Empire).

Certain Psykers have the ability to teleport (shorter distances, however, although that is probably down to game balance), open holes to the warp (which is pretty much death to all it touches; I'm sure that the more powerful Alpha Psykers would be able to employ such an ability in space...) among other things.

The Imperium of Man, when it comes to it's military, is not as backward as it's planets and method of governing would have you believe. The Cyclonic torpedoes have the ability to literally tear apart planet sized (or bigger with more missiles) bodies, as demonstrated in their use against the Necron world engine. The Imperium also puts a much larger focus on sheer armour and durability, and as a result, Imperial ships are arguably tougher (compared to Empire ships of comparable size) (see Conor's post).

How long would it take for Hyperdrive to be used effectively? Does it not require meticulous planning of an area to avoid smashing into things? The fact that most Imperial planets do not have accurate maps of their areas, it would take the Empire some time before they were able to use their FTL travel well. Perhaps enough time for the Imperium to mobilize. Forge Worlds are huge planet factories, and should all the Forge Worlds and planets with manufacturing capabilities shift their production to Warp-capable warships as opposed to ground forces (as this war is likely to be decided in space, and the Empire has little hope on the ground) then production of ships would increase exponentially.

Each planet has a PDF ranging from a couple of million to considerably more (especially around the Eye of Terror). These are generally considerably harder warriors than storm troopers due to their upbringing (especially on hive worlds) and would make for a hard fight, especially in the dense hives or in terrain they are familiar with (as demonstrated by modern day Afghanistan, and the PDF would be better equipped and tougher). The people itself are unlikely to bow give in on a world of any significance. The religious indoctrination of the population, as well as the fact that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better for a people who have just been violently invaded is going to result in huge uprisings and resistance. I cannot see an Empire force ever successfully occupying a Hive World, ever.

Chaos draws it's power from humanity. Chaos Space marines do not form the source of their power; emotions do. It was pointed out that in the Warhammer 40,000 galaxy, humans have actually be implanted with a psykic gene by the old ones. Humans from the GE do not have this, and so are far less vulnerable to possession than Humans in the IoM. Note that they still have a presence in the warp, and so are still vulnerable to attacks from it; it's just that they are not going to be pskyers. Imperial vehicles are very vulnerable to possession; as they have not been protected or blessed against such an attack. Not only this, but unlike Imperial machines, they lack a soul / machine spirit.

How many ships does the GE have? Imperator or bigger.

It would be a slog... the Imperium of Man and the Galactic Empire would probably grind eachother to a standstill. Hmm... who knows...

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