The efficiency of melee in Warhammer 40K

[white_rabbit]

We have, as I recall, actually seen a power fist make someone explode.

Yeah, an Avenging Hearts apothecary hits a chaos marine, resulting in a giant flash of light, and a mild rain of armour fragments.

[SylasGaunt]

I don't know. Like, use a gun? You know, sorta like how he took out the Harlequin? It would had saved him a few seconds of being fried like a bug.

I'd like to add that the Marines did try and shoot the farseer when they were charging in. They were being stopped by some kind of shield.

[Maxentius]

I don't know. Like, use a gun? You know, sorta like how he took out the Harlequin? It would had saved him a few seconds of being fried like a bug.

I'd like to add that the Marines did try and shoot the farseer when they were charging in. They were being stopped by some kind of shield.

We know that wraithbone is psykicly active; it's possible that a Farseer's Rune Armor works by somehow projecting a shield around the Farseer in response to psykic energies. Alternatively, it could merely be a personal shield or a manifestation of another psionic power.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Because that is my gripe?Did you read the earlier thread, where someone actually said he support the Chainsword weilding marine in a trench? Your bolt pistol would be able to take on and kill more people faster and more efficiently, why the hell would you want to limit yourself?

And a Marine would probably use his bolt pistol while killing using a chainsword or power sword? It's not like he'd use only his chain sword alone?

You mean that the Space Marine is now so gimped that he's unable to use the well-refined, durable bolter to actually kill someone with a meelee attack? Or his combat knife which is similarly mono-edged and can hurt someone just as badly? He has to GIMP himself with a heavy chainsword/power fist and limit the firepower he can weild just so that when he runs out of ammo and needs to reload, despite his speed and reflexes at loading, despite his ability to carry prodigious amount of weight and thus ammunition clips, despite his training in where he can simply GRAB any other weapon in range including from the enemy, despite his training and skills in hand to hand, despite his tactical acumen where he won't get himself stuck in situations where he would be running into battle without ammunition?
Geez, I don't know. Since when were Space Marines supposed to be idiots?

Space Marines have been consistently entrusted with missions that ordinary guardsmen cannot handle, and often they are caught in situations, such as that in the beginning of the Ultramarine omnibus, where they nearly ran out of ammo, have no support due to faulty overhead intelligence, and of course, enemy counter reconnaissance. You can be sure it would have been a knife fight if it came to it.

What's more, in that fight, they were using their ranged weapons as much as possible. (though the initial bits was a slightly more stealthy move with killing the traitor PDF as quietly as possible with knives) The sole assault marine squad was used as far as I know, to help blow up the bridge.

And since when did chainswords had a good chance of penetrating a dreadnought armour? In novel mind you, not ingame.

I meant power sword. Those things have a way of messing with the molecular structure of armour a bit more intrinsically. I have stated this before, but a PDF wielding a power fist actually disabled a Leman Russ before. You won't see a bolter doing that, although typically a Space Marine squad would use a missile, unless they were out of it, or there was need to screw the enemy up with some hit and run raid.

Geez. Running out of ammo doesn't count as having no choice? Or that Space Marines are somehow so vulnerable to contaigion that they won't be able to use Chaos pistols? This despite the fact that we have seen Space Marines use chaos enhanced meelee weapons in one of the novels(I can't remember the name, its just one of those SM which had seen a genetic mutation and they're trying to stop a chaos infiltration. He lost his warp enhanced weapon, grabbed the enemy's instead and stomped him.)

You might like to remember that the Primarch Fulgrim himself was corrupted by a tainted weapon. Yeah, weapons like that will screw anyone. If he decides to pick up a chaos weapon, he's taking a fair bit of risk that he won't be affected by it.

Which all makes infinitely better sense than deliberately OUTFITTING yourself so that you would put yourself at more risk and carry less firepower.

So why the fuck do you think the Marines make sure they are equipped to handle any situation, even when forced to fight hand to hand when they don't want to?

So, in order to counteract that, you're going to gimp their firepower and killing abilities instead?

You mean a bolt pistol is useless?

Face it. Neither is your conventional meelee weapons going to be that effective in that situation. Being swarmed under in meelee attacks is WORSE than being swarmed under when you have a gun. At least you can take out more of them shooting than you can where multiple meelee opponents means your attacks are less effective.

So you are saying that the Space Marine should parry with his bare hand or his pistol? (and power swords and chain swords are hardly conventional, compared to a knife)

Since Imperial Assasins can do that and we know Space Marines have something called godlike reflexes, are you saying they can't?

Like how? Doesn't change the fact that he is out of a weapon for a good number of seconds, enough for someone to kill him?

[PainRack]

And a Marine would probably use his bolt pistol while killing using a chainsword or power sword? It's not like he'd use only his chain sword alone?

Which changes the basis of my gripe........ how?

Space Marines have been consistently entrusted with missions that ordinary guardsmen cannot handle, and often they are caught in situations, such as that in the beginning of the Ultramarine omnibus, where they nearly ran out of ammo, have no support due to faulty overhead intelligence, and of course, enemy counter reconnaissance. You can be sure it would have been a knife fight if it came to it.

So, outfitting yourself purposely so that you would go into meelee, sacrificing ranged firepower is worth it because your side may occasionally screw up?

What's more, in that fight, they were using their ranged weapons as much as possible. (though the initial bits was a slightly more stealthy move with killing the traitor PDF as quietly as possible with knives) The sole assault marine squad was used as far as I know, to help blow up the bridge.

Errr, guess what? I know. My contention is NOT the existence and purpose of assault squads. Its the fan obession with meelee and its supposed validity and usefulness, as already exhibited by yourself. And to a certain extent, the game itself and image protrayl.

So why the fuck do you think the Marines make sure they are equipped to handle any situation, even when forced to fight hand to hand when they don't want to?

That's what the knife, their skills and training are for. GIMPING　their firepower just so you can have increased meelee capabilities is NOT a wise tactical decision!

You mean a bolt pistol is useless?

No. The CHAINSWORD is. MEELEE weapons.

So you are saying that the Space Marine should parry with his bare hand or his pistol? (and power swords and chain swords are hardly conventional, compared to a knife)

He's in freaking power armour. And given his skills and reflexes, given that Ragnar is on par with a freaking Imperial Assasin, he's certainly not as vulnerable to meelee attacks as you suggest. Give him a pistol or a bolter for CC and he's done.

Like how? Doesn't change the fact that he is out of a weapon for a good number of seconds, enough for someone to kill him?

So the fact that he's on an ammunition reliant weapon means you're going to let him place himself at greater risk by going into meelee combat? Its not as if their opponents are weaker at meelee than they are. The Space Marines routinely go into battle with opponents who are more powerful at meelee than range, from Goff Orks to Tyrannids. To make things worse, they're usually outnumbered by opponents who excel in meelee. To go into HTH against such opponents as a matter of choice is insane. There simply isn't anything in the universe, both ingame and in universe to suggest that being outnumbered in meelee isn't going to screw you over badly.

Err. Power Fists are, much like terminator weapons (hey, surprise surprise, they are) actually able to kill things that a bolter most certainly can't.

I was under the impression that their ability to damage tanks only exist when weilded by Termies? If so, then I'm partially wrong.

[Shadowtraveler]

I'm pretty sure there's no difference in caliber between a boltgun and a bolt pistol, and there's highly unlikely to be a difference in range based on how bolter's work.

[Imperial Overlord]

On the list of things that get deadlier in melee, add Space Marines. Superhumanly fast, strong, tough, highly skilled and far better equipped than most foes they'll meet. Most chapters do prefer to just shoot people to death, entering close combat only when necessary.

There's an initial launching charge with many bolt weapons so bolt pistols don't have the range of rifles.

Ordinary humans can kill tanks with power fists.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Which changes the basis of my gripe........ how?

Your gripe is based on the idea that melee weapons are useless? Whereas it actually grants him tactical flexibility?

So, outfitting yourself purposely so that you would go into meelee, sacrificing ranged firepower is worth it because your side may occasionally screw up?

You do know there's such a thing as a weapon sheath which the melee weapon can be stuffed in while the Marine uses a heavy bolter which commanders generally do? So how does that screw him up? Have you read any damn book where a commander asks his normal squad to throw away all his weapons and charge into the enemy with only his damn sword?

Errr, guess what? I know. My contention is NOT the existence and purpose of assault squads. Its the fan obession with meelee and its supposed validity and usefulness, as already exhibited by yourself. And to a certain extent, the game itself and image protrayl.

Game portrayal and image portrayal again do swat with canon? So did Game/image Portrayal suddenly trump canon?

Let's see now, as others have said, melee weapons have in numerous occasions proven more effective than ranged weapons. Then the enemy who soaked up your ranged weapons almost effortlessly, comes charging at you and your weapon is ineffective, and so is the damn knife, what then do you suggest? Flee?

That's what the knife, their skills and training are for. GIMPING　their firepower just so you can have increased meelee capabilities is NOT a wise tactical decision!

Wow, it's a wise tactical decision to use a knife against an Orc axe. Wow. Like laws of momentum suddenly flew out of the window. Has it occurred to you one of the main reasons the Imperial Guards don't fair too well against Orcs is because they are darn weak against melee?

No. The CHAINSWORD is. MEELEE weapons.

I'm sorry, but if my other arm can kill something while the other shoots, I don't see the problem.

He's in freaking power armour. And given his skills and reflexes, given that Ragnar is on par with a freaking Imperial Assasin, he's certainly not as vulnerable to meelee attacks as you suggest. Give him a pistol or a bolter for CC and he's done.

Wow, like, the enemy doesn't have comparable skills to avoid the bolter and slice the bolter off before slicing Ragnar's head off. I have at least seen one Space Marine employ the use of both hands to fight in such a fashion.

So the fact that he's on an ammunition reliant weapon means you're going to let him place himself at greater risk by going into meelee combat? Its not as if their opponents are weaker at meelee than they are. The Space Marines routinely go into battle with opponents who are more powerful at meelee than range, from Goff Orks to Tyrannids. To make things worse, they're usually outnumbered by opponents who excel in meelee. To go into HTH against such opponents as a matter of choice is insane. There simply isn't anything in the universe, both ingame and in universe to suggest that being outnumbered in meelee isn't going to screw you over badly.

I'm sorry, but apparently, you have a problem with reading comprehension when I mentioned time and time again, that unless there's no bloody choice, they wouldn't go into melee, or even 100% melee. Against the Tyranids they have time and time again tried to avoid close quarter, but lo and behold, before the Tyranids landed on a planet the Ultramarines ensured the local PDF was given enough physical fitness training just so that they can deal with the Tyranids when tehy finally hit the battleline.

I was under the impression that their ability to damage tanks only exist when weilded by Termies? If so, then I'm partially wrong.

I have fucking said it before, but in the same Ultramarine book you claimed to have read, the local PDF actually disabled a Leman Russ tank with his fucking power fist.

[Ford Prefect]

So, in effect melee is good in WH40K because of "fun-based" game mechanics (similar to those in Battletech that demand the use of mechs) and not because of any logic. In real life even relatively inefficient firearms like bolt action rifles are superior to any conceivable melee weapon, because they allow you to inflict casualties and damage morale from a great distance away, to make use of suppressive fire, and even in a CQB situation they have a powerful mechanical advantage (the effort of pulling a trigger compared to rushing with a knife).

This is basically the case - close combat is a lot less prevalent in the novels, and as I mentioned in the other thread, the iconic image of a Space Marine is actually of firing his bolter at unseen enemies. However, there seems to be some sort of bizarre misunderstanding here about how melee combat actually occurs in 40k, especially when it comes to Space Marines. Yes, Assault Marines exist, but this does not somehow erase the existence of Tactical Marines, who make up the core of a Space Marine force. Even the goddamn Black Templars and Blood Angels primarily field Astartes armed with bolters. Even Saint Sabbat herself was carrying demolition charges along with her magic sword.

It doesn't make any sense at all in real life to give your soldiers a chainsaw and a jetpack and send them rocketing around the place like killy human meteors. Case in point, real life isn't awesome enough for that.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sarevok pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Additionally, if a chainsword cuts through armour like butter, and another chainsword can block a strike from the first chainsword without suffering significant structural damage, then why don't they use the stuff they make chainswords out of as armour?

Err. It does suffer damage. What made you think it doesn't? Bits go everywhere, and the things get dinged all to hell.

It was my understanding that they were functionally equivalent to a sword and that, consequently, they wouldn't get bent out of shape all that easily when you banged two of them together. My mistake.

What's more, the stuff they make chainsword teeth out of (generally described as 'ceramite') is used as armour, but it's expensive, and only the elite can get a whole suit of armour (the same way an ordinary soldier could afford an axe or some arrows, but not a suit of plate, in the middle ages).

Well, that makes sense. On the other hand, chainswords seem to me to be rather common weapons. Not as common as, say, a lasgun, of course, but if they're issued to all the sergeants and officers, then even if we discount the various shock troops, such as Rough Riders and exclusively melee specialist regiments (and the 4th-ed Codex would seem to indicate that they do indeed exist,) about one in ten Imperial Guardsmen have one. That's quite a bit of ceramite.

Is it also used in 'carapace' armour?

But by that standard, then bronze armour would protect against bronze weapons indefinately. It doesn't work that way.

Exactly where did I state that ceramite armour would protect against ceramite melee weapons indefinitely?

[Pablo Sanchez]

Yes, Assault Marines exist, but this does not somehow erase the existence of Tactical Marines, who make up the core of a Space Marine force.

But logically speaking any number of soldiers relegated to a primarily melee role will be less than useless, because they still have to be protected and supplied but are incapable of playing any effective battlefield role. The issue is probably that, as I understand it, WH40K was originally an adaptation of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, a wargame designed to simulate fantasy medieval combat, so that the design was heavily weighted to melee combat.

Even the goddamn Black Templars and Blood Angels primarily field Astartes armed with bolters. Even Saint Sabbat herself was carrying demolition charges along with her magic sword.

Oh, like carrying demolition charges extends a soldier's range by a significant amount.

[Imperial Overlord]

Actually the earliest version of the game, which was derived from Warhammer Fantasy Battle, was very melee unfriendly. Assault Marines were cool because you could advance them quickly and mow down hordes of people, including expensive heavy weapon troopers, at close range with dual bolt pistol action. The game mechanics have changed to make getting into melee a more practical option.

40K is melee friendly by intent because it's a space fantasy like Star Wars. Psychic powers, power fields, super nasty chainsaw swords, power blades, daemonic invulnerability, super nasty genesteeler claws, good personal body armour, etcetera all help preserve SoD in regards to this fetish. The fluff has more shooting and less HTH than the table top game, which has mechanics that allow HTH centered armies to be competitive.

[Ford Prefect]

But logically speaking any number of soldiers relegated to a primarily melee role will be less than useless, because they still have to be protected and supplied but are incapable of playing any effective battlefield role. The issue is probably that, as I understand it, WH40K was originally an adaptation of Warhammer Fantasy Battle, a wargame designed to simulate fantasy medieval combat, so that the design was heavily weighted to melee combat.

I honestly do not wish to get involved in some sort of debate in regards to this, simply because debating the 'pro-melee' side is an exercise in futility, because logically it doesn't make sense. My statement relates to this strange notion that it's all rar rar hack and slash with swords, which is total nonsense.

Oh, like carrying demolition charges extends a soldier's range by a significant amount.

That wasn't the point I was making. I initially used the example of Assault Marines carrying around melta bombs and demolition charages as an example that the role they serve is not just cutting people to ribbons, but I felt that an example which had what was basically an angel carrying around explosives was more amusing.

[PainRack]

Your gripe is based on the idea that melee weapons are useless? Whereas it actually grants him tactical flexibility?

What tactical flexibility? Tactical Marines can fight meelee without the Chainsword. You're sacrificing range and forcing yourself to get in close, where you can be more easily swarmed under and in essence, sacrificing a bit of maneveur options because unlike your bolt pistols and bolters, you need to get in close.

You do know there's such a thing as a weapon sheath which the melee weapon can be stuffed in while the Marine uses a heavy bolter which commanders generally do? So how does that screw him up? Have you read any damn book where a commander asks his normal squad to throw away all his weapons and charge into the enemy with only his damn sword?

No. Have you? And of course, the sword and etc is not going to weigh anything, its not going to interfere with agility and weight balance because its.......... oh wait, it does.

Game portrayal and image portrayal again do swat with canon? So did Game/image Portrayal suddenly trump canon?

Guess what? I'm SAYING the canon does not support the view that meelee weapons are tactically superior to range, and thus the fans support of meelee, as you are doing right now that it is tactically advantageous is WRONG. Its simply a choice the Imperium use.

Let's see now, as others have said, melee weapons have in numerous occasions proven more effective than ranged weapons. Then the enemy who soaked up your ranged weapons almost effortlessly, comes charging at you and your weapon is ineffective, and so is the damn knife, what then do you suggest? Flee?

Get a bigger gun. Its not as if Assault Marines role are meant to fight in a stand up fight anyway. Their tactical role are raiders.
Actually, scrap that. Space Marines aren't supposed to be fighting in a stand up fight anyway.

Wow, it's a wise tactical decision to use a knife against an Orc axe. Wow. Like laws of momentum suddenly flew out of the window. Has it occurred to you one of the main reasons the Imperial Guards don't fair too well against Orcs is because they are darn weak against melee?

Has it occured to you that Space Marines are more agile and faster than Orks? So now one off situations means meelee weapons are tactically advantageous?

I'm sorry, but if my other arm can kill something while the other shoots, I don't see the problem.

Only if you're up close, opening yourself up to attacks from the rear and flank, increased threat and requiring superior skill to get out of.

Wow, like, the enemy doesn't have comparable skills to avoid the bolter and slice the bolter off before slicing Ragnar's head off. I have at least seen one Space Marine employ the use of both hands to fight in such a fashion.

So............. your point being? If he has comparable skills to avoid your bolter, he's also going to have comparable skills to avoiding your sword swing.

I'm sorry, but apparently, you have a problem with reading comprehension when I mentioned time and time again, that unless there's no bloody choice, they wouldn't go into melee, or even 100% melee.

Guess what, apparently you have a memory problem since I in nowhere, and infact, repeatedly stated that the gripe is NOT against the Space Marines having to fight meelee. Its the outfitting of them with meelee weapons and the fan protrayl of this as tactically advantageous when this is NOT seen in the canon.

[Lancer]

What tactical flexibility? Tactical Marines can fight meelee without the Chainsword. You're sacrificing range and forcing yourself to get in close, where you can be more easily swarmed under and in essence, sacrificing a bit of maneveur options because unlike your bolt pistols and bolters, you need to get in close.

Unless you're the Black Templar or Blood Angels, that's not whats happening. The reason why you will be getting into melee combat is because you're facing opponents that will be able to quickly close into melee range with you unless your entire army is mounted on Land Speeders or is firing at them from orbit.

No. Have you? And of course, the sword and etc is not going to weigh anything, its not going to interfere with agility and weight balance because its.......... oh wait, it does.

How seriously do you think the weight of the chainsword will impact balance and weigh distribution on a power-armored individual like a Space Marine, when they have already demonstrated the ability to carry around such weapons in addition to their ranged weapons with no impact on their ranged performance?

Guess what? I'm SAYING the canon does not support the view that meelee weapons are tactically superior to range, and thus the fans support of meelee, as you are doing right now that it is tactically advantageous is WRONG. Its simply a choice the Imperium use.

Melee combat is not really a decision on part of the Imperium as much as it is determined by the nature of the opposition.

Let's see now, as others have said, melee weapons have in numerous occasions proven more effective than ranged weapons. Then the enemy who soaked up your ranged weapons almost effortlessly, comes charging at you and your weapon is ineffective, and so is the damn knife, what then do you suggest? Flee?

Get a bigger gun. Its not as if Assault Marines role are meant to fight in a stand up fight anyway. Their tactical role are raiders.
Actually, scrap that. Space Marines aren't supposed to be fighting in a stand up fight anyway.

Bolt pistols already use the same ammunition as a bolter. Getting a bigger gun would involve either exotic ammunition or far greater expense. Simply switching to special weapons doesn't work either, as they come with some sort of tradeoff. Heavy bolters require a specialized backpack ammo feed to sustain their rate of fire, making them wholly incompatible with jump packs. Meltaguns have very short ranges and very low rates of fire. Multimeltas and lascannons require a backpack power feed in a manner similar to the Heavy Bolter. Plasma weapons cannot sustain high rates of fire without overheating. Missile launchers need to be reloaded after each shot and carry even less ammunitition.

Wow, it's a wise tactical decision to use a knife against an Orc axe. Wow. Like laws of momentum suddenly flew out of the window. Has it occurred to you one of the main reasons the Imperial Guards don't fair too well against Orcs is because they are darn weak against melee?

Has it occured to you that Space Marines are more agile and faster than Orks? So now one off situations means meelee weapons are tactically advantageous?[/quote]

What are the opponents a Space Marine will reasonably be expected to face? In pretty much every instance, it will be to deal with an opponent that the Imperial Guard (which does represent the massed firepower approach) could not handle. Against opponents such as Orks or Tyranids, if the Imperial Guard was unable to deal with it, then it's likely that the opposing force has the numbers to get into melee combat even in the face of what should be overwhelming fire. Other opponents, for example Traitor Marines, are sufficiently resilent and well-armored that they can make it into melee combat despite incomming fire. Then you have the batshit-insane Dark Eldar. These supposed one-off situations would in all likelyhood happen fairly frequently, since if simple massed firepower was capable of dealing with the situation, there would be no need for an Astartes response.

I'm sorry, but if my other arm can kill something while the other shoots, I don't see the problem.

Only if you're up close, opening yourself up to attacks from the rear and flank, increased threat and requiring superior skill to get out of.[/quote]

Your being up close with the enemy isn't usually as much of a choice as a given. You can either be up close with just a bolter, or up close with a bolter and chainsword.

Wow, like, the enemy doesn't have comparable skills to avoid the bolter and slice the bolter off before slicing Ragnar's head off. I have at least seen one Space Marine employ the use of both hands to fight in such a fashion.

So............. your point being? If he has comparable skills to avoid your bolter, he's also going to have comparable skills to avoiding your sword swing.

...at melee range, avoiding a gun should be far easier than avoiding a blade, simply because you only need to stay out of the way of the end of the barrel instead of the entire length of the weapon.

I'm sorry, but apparently, you have a problem with reading comprehension when I mentioned time and time again, that unless there's no bloody choice, they wouldn't go into melee, or even 100% melee.

Guess what, apparently you have a memory problem since I in nowhere, and infact, repeatedly stated that the gripe is NOT against the Space Marines having to fight meelee. Its the outfitting of them with meelee weapons and the fan protrayl of this as tactically advantageous when this is NOT seen in the canon.

How is issuing a Space Marine a melee weapon in addition to his bolter and standard kit not tactically advantageous? It's not replacing anything, it's just expanding his options when faced with the very likely possibility of getting forced into melee combat despite posessing superior firepower.

Space Wolves series: Chainswords and other "standard" melee weapons wielded by a Marine or something of equivalent/greater strength are able to cut through carapace and power armor fairly quickly, whereas bolt-rounds are stopped by the same armors. This applies to both Loyalist and Traitor Marines.
Iron Snakes: Despite forming a gunline and firing into a horde of orks until their magazines are dry, the Iron Snakes still end up in melee combat with the Orks.
Xenos (Eisenhorn series): A battle-brother of the Deathwatch takes several bolt-rounds to his chestplate and is knocked aside by force of the impacts (but they don't penetrate his armor). He then gets up and proceeds to fight his opponent (an Emperors Children Chaos Marine) in hand-to-hand before finally killing the Chaos Marine by shooting him in the head at point-blank range.
The Traitor's Hand (Ciaphas Cain series): In two separate instances in the novel, Cain is able to keep a World Eater Chaos Space Marine busy in melee combat long enough for his aid Jurgen to get a clear line of fire and a killshot with a meltagun.
Kill Team (Last Chancers): A Deathwatch Space Marine is able to advance into sustained burst cannon fire from no less than three battlesuits. He is able to destroy one with six shots from his bolter (fired one-handed), disables the burst cannon of another, then rapidly closes the distance and rips it apart with two strokes of his power sword.

[Ryan Thunder]

Space Wolves series: Chainswords and other "standard" melee weapons wielded by a Marine or something of equivalent/greater strength are able to cut through carapace and power armor fairly quickly, whereas bolt-rounds are stopped by the same armors. This applies to both Loyalist and Traitor Marines.

I swear boltguns penetrate power armour. Hell, either the Index Astartes or the 3rd edition rulebook even had a line about how they were designed to penetrate power armour (and that was fluff, not rules, by the way.)

Iron Snakes: Despite forming a gunline and firing into a horde of orks until their magazines are dry, the Iron Snakes still end up in melee combat with the Orks.

This sounds more like a massive testament to the staggering stupidity of Orks more than anything else.

Xenos (Eisenhorn series): A battle-brother of the Deathwatch takes several bolt-rounds to his chestplate and is knocked aside by force of the impacts (but they don't penetrate his armor). He then gets up and proceeds to fight his opponent (an Emperors Children Chaos Marine) in hand-to-hand before finally killing the Chaos Marine by shooting him in the head at point-blank range.

So let me get this straight; he was generally unharmed after being shot with a weapon that tossed him around like a ragdoll, and then proceeded to defeat his opponent in a fistfight!?

I sense some inconsistencies here...

The Traitor's Hand (Ciaphas Cain series): In two separate instances in the novel, Cain is able to keep a World Eater Chaos Space Marine busy in melee combat long enough for his aid Jurgen to get a clear line of fire and a killshot with a meltagun.

Why not simply shoot the bastard to begin with and save Cain the trouble?

Kill Team (Last Chancers): A Deathwatch Space Marine is able to advance into sustained burst cannon fire from no less than three battlesuits. He is able to destroy one with six shots from his bolter (fired one-handed), disables the burst cannon of another, then rapidly closes the distance and rips it apart with two strokes of his power sword.

I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that... A Crisis suit on its own is (supposedly) bigger, tougher, and fields heavier weapons than a Space Marine. Hell, those burst cannons are supposed to be comparable to heavy bolters in terms of destructiveness.

I guess I can't throw it out, because its fluff, but goddamn, that sort of stuff pisses me off...

[Ford Prefect]

I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that... A Crisis suit on its own is (supposedly) bigger, tougher, and fields heavier weapons than a Space Marine. Hell, those burst cannons are supposed to be comparable to heavy bolters in terms of destructiveness.

I guess I can't throw it out, because its fluff, but goddamn, that sort of stuff pisses me off...

I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read this post. Yes, Crisis Suits are bigger (barely), but they are not actually tougher. The Tau look more advanced, but this does not actually mean they are technologically more sophisticated; the Imperium's materials science is phenomenally superior. And guess what, the Tau do not actually have superior weapon systems either.You can cry all you like, but we have seen a Space Marine protect a person from assault cannon fire by holding themselves in the way. Space Marine Power Armour offers some of the best personal protection in the entire goddamn Milky Way; there is not a lot which matches it and there is even less which exceeds it.

It amuses me to no end that it annoys you that the Tau as actually portrayed are not massively superior. Undoubtedly, this comes from some absurd style over substance nonsense (which is hilarious given the universe, which is all style over substance ).

[Peptuck]

This sounds more like a massive testament to the staggering stupidity of Orks more than anything else.

Uh, hi. Welcome to 40k. Orks stupidly charging into massed enemy fire is a kinda-sorta well-known thing they do.

Why not simply shoot the bastard to begin with and save Cain the trouble?

Because Cain was already in melee with the World Eater. The World Eater in question quite literally leapt at Cain from about a dozen meters away, faster than anyone else could get a bead on it with anything except lasguns, and started hacking away at him. At that point Jurgen couldn't fire until Cain had managed to disengage.

[Academia Nut]

This is really the issue here, in that a lot of creatures in 40k are really fucking fast according to the fluff. While it doesn't show up on the table top, Space Marines are supposed to be able to sustain sprints of 60kph if I remember correctly. And the Eldar are faster, as are a lot of the 'Nids. So you have a lot of forces that are often man to horse sized targets moving at vehicular speeds while possessing armour capable of shrugging off most man portable weapons unless you hit them in the weak points a lot. That's got to be a bitch to aim at, thus improving the chances of moving to melee range where such creatures can use their superior strength and speed to devastating effect. True, it would probably be smarter to simply keep moving while at range and firing, but generally the act of sprinting prevents them from aiming properly as well.

Although if you could shoot into melee in the tabletop the game would probably get significantly more shooty.

[YOURLIVER]

Greetings, first post, woohoo.

Now, while a space marine may have the powerful bolter, wouldn't the blade and hammers wielded by leaders have EXTREME results? (ripping in two, exploding enemies)

And if that isn't enough, when rival marines come to blows (chaos) I've noted mentions in codex's and books that bolters aren't damaging enough, so they take it upon themselves to rip each other apart with their hands and swords.

Also, these men are powerful and tactical warrioirs, but lets no forget they are religious nutjobs to the extreme. Would more "honour" or "glory" come to a close combat squabble?

[Lancer]

Space Wolves series: Chainswords and other "standard" melee weapons wielded by a Marine or something of equivalent/greater strength are able to cut through carapace and power armor fairly quickly, whereas bolt-rounds are stopped by the same armors. This applies to both Loyalist and Traitor Marines.

I swear boltguns penetrate power armour. Hell, either the Index Astartes or the 3rd edition rulebook even had a line about how they were designed to penetrate power armour (and that was fluff, not rules, by the way.)

Boltguns penetrate power armor in much the same fashion that a longlas penetrate tank armor. It's been known to happen if you're extremely lucky, the guy on the other end is extremely unlucky, or you fire a lot of rounds and hope you hit something vital, but it's not something you can rely upon.

Iron Snakes: Despite forming a gunline and firing into a horde of orks until their magazines are dry, the Iron Snakes still end up in melee combat with the Orks.

This sounds more like a massive testament to the staggering stupidity of Orks more than anything else.

It's a valid tactic for the Orks. Even as it was, the Iron Snakes were barely keeping themselves from being overrun, despite blazing away until they needed to reload.

Xenos (Eisenhorn series): A battle-brother of the Deathwatch takes several bolt-rounds to his chestplate and is knocked aside by force of the impacts (but they don't penetrate his armor). He then gets up and proceeds to fight his opponent (an Emperors Children Chaos Marine) in hand-to-hand before finally killing the Chaos Marine by shooting him in the head at point-blank range.

So let me get this straight; he was generally unharmed after being shot with a weapon that tossed him around like a ragdoll, and then proceeded to defeat his opponent in a fistfight!?

I sense some inconsistencies here...

Huge difference between getting knocked aside and getting tossed around like a ragdoll. To wit, I could hit you with a sledgehammer (or something as mundane as a bag of frozen french fries) and simply knock you aside, or I could hit you with a wrecking ball swung from a crane, which most likely would toss you like a ragdoll. But I digress, the two Marines, loyalist and traitor, inflicted more damage on eachother through a brief period of hand-to-hand combat than they did by shooting at eachother.

The Traitor's Hand (Ciaphas Cain series): In two separate instances in the novel, Cain is able to keep a World Eater Chaos Space Marine busy in melee combat long enough for his aid Jurgen to get a clear line of fire and a killshot with a meltagun.

Why not simply shoot the bastard to begin with and save Cain the trouble?[/quote]

Because the guy was impervious to everything they carried save for Jurgen's Melta, and he didn't really have a lot of warning to switch from his lasgun to his melta.

Kill Team (Last Chancers): A Deathwatch Space Marine is able to advance into sustained burst cannon fire from no less than three battlesuits. He is able to destroy one with six shots from his bolter (fired one-handed), disables the burst cannon of another, then rapidly closes the distance and rips it apart with two strokes of his power sword.

I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that... A Crisis suit on its own is (supposedly) bigger, tougher, and fields heavier weapons than a Space Marine. Hell, those burst cannons are supposed to be comparable to heavy bolters in terms of destructiveness.

I guess I can't throw it out, because its fluff, but goddamn, that sort of stuff pisses me off...

The Tau are far less impressive than their 40kTT statline reflects. Pulse rifles aren't much better than Hellguns, Firewarrior armor is inferior to Imperial carapace, weapons drones are outperformed by servo-skulls, railguns won't actually shoot clean through any Imperial vehicle, etc. Most of the in-universe references to supposed absolute Tau technological superiority are pretty clear-cut examples of hearsay.

[Ford Prefect]

wouldn't the blade and hammers wielded by leaders have EXTREME results? (ripping in two, exploding enemies)

This is true of basically any higher-end melee weapon in the hands of just about anyone. If you gave me a power sword, I could use it to carve chunks out of a tank. Mind you, being torn in two is probably what will happen to a person hit with a four-round burst from a Space Marine Boltgun, assuming the bolts penetrate. Regardless, there are few weapons of that weight which are going to penetrate armour as well as a power blade. They are basically lightsabers.

[Ryan Thunder]

I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that... A Crisis suit on its own is (supposedly) bigger, tougher, and fields heavier weapons than a Space Marine. Hell, those burst cannons are supposed to be comparable to heavy bolters in terms of destructiveness.

I guess I can't throw it out, because its fluff, but goddamn, that sort of stuff pisses me off...

I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read this post.

Haha, very funny.

Yes, Crisis Suits are bigger (barely), but they are not actually tougher. The Tau look more advanced, but this does not actually mean they are technologically more sophisticated; the Imperium's materials science is phenomenally superior.

Hey, just for shits and giggles, why don't you point out where I actually said that I thought the Tau were more technologically advanced, or that they had better materials science?

And guess what, the Tau do not actually have superior weapon systems either.

While they might not have some of the more exotic technologies that the Imperium does, they make better use of what they do have. It remains that they are able to fit a weapons system capable of rapidly turning a Predator Annihilator into a useless wreck from well outside its effective range onto a faster antigrav gunship with comparable armour and none of the same terrain restrictions.

Then we have other stuff, like putting stabilizers in their pulse rifles so their troops can shoot further, issuing blacksun filters so they can see further than their enemies in the dark, markerlights to call in fire support and increase the effectiveness of their heavier weapons systems, handing out carapace armour like candy, mounting them in fast-moving APCs that aren't restricted by rough terrain, etc.

Sure, the Imperium might be able to do all that, and then some, but the fact of the matter is that, in the vast majority of cases, they don't, for any number of bizarre reasons.

You can cry all you like, but we have seen a Space Marine protect a person from assault cannon fire by holding themselves in the way.

I could swear those things have killed Imperial tanks before.

Are you seriously willing to believe that a Space Marine is better armoured than a tank at his size?

Space Marine Power Armour offers some of the best personal protection in the entire goddamn Milky Way; there is not a lot which matches it and there is even less which exceeds it.

Yeah, its so good, in fact, that it leaves one wondering why most of their armoured vehicles are such useless paper-mache deathtraps by comparison.

It amuses me to no end that it annoys you that the Tau as actually portrayed are not massively superior.

I love how you took "The combined firepower of three heavily armed and armoured, (not to mention, flying) weapons platforms piloted by a high-ranking Fire Warrior and his two veteran bodyguards should be enough to kill a lone Deathwatch Space Marine on foot and armed with a power sword," and turned it into "The Tau Empire should be massively superior to the Imperium."

The Tau aren't vastly superior, but they certainly aren't helpless, either.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is this the Eisenhorn Xenos incident that is being referred to? I was just going to post this. I'll deal with Ryan's idiocy later.

..looked down the silver path in time to see Guilar jerk backwards as multiple bolter rounds struck his chest plate. With a cry of rage rather than pain, he went over, off the path, into the bubbling water of the tank behind us and vanished.
Thrusting the heretic foot soldiers out of the way, his killer came down the pathway towards us.
'Oh no!' Bequin cried. 'Please-by-the-Golden-Throne-no!'
Another of the Emperor's Children, the brother if not the twin of foul Mandragore. His scintillating cloak blew out behind him, and his steel-shod hooves shook the path. He was bellowing like a bull auroch. His bolter spat and the Gudrunite beside me burst apart.
The Children of the Emperor, shadowy sponsors of this entire enterprise, were here to protect their investment. Had they come, unbidden, after Mandragore's death? Had Dazzo or Locke summoned them?
I fired the bolter at him, joining the fusillade of desperate weapons blasts that Purge Two levelled in a frantic attempt to slow him down. Fear made the men forget the best of their training, and many of the shots were wild. He didn't seem to feel those few that struck his armour.
'Purge Two! This is Purge Two! The Children of the Emperor are here!' I yelled into my vox. I knew I would be dead in an instant. It was imperative that Fleet Command knew of this dire development.
A black shape burst up from the dark water, cascading froth and ooze in all directions. Brother Guilar slammed into the Chaos Marine, wrenching him over, and they both fell thrashing into the adjacent tank. Something, probably the heretic's bolter, fired repeatedly underwater and the side of the tank below the floating path splintered out in a rash of liquid. The soupy water flooded out, draining away into the gullies between the garden structures. As the fluid level dropped, the titanic combatants emerged, blackened with mire, wrestling and trading inhuman blows among the tangled roots and feeder tubes of the tank's murky bottom.
Ceramite-cased fists pounded into armour plates. Chips of plasteel flew from the impacts. The Chaos Marine's vast paws clawed at Guilar, tearing at his visor and shoulder guards. Guilar drove him backwards, his feet churning in the shallow, thick water. They slammed in the bole of a cycad. The enemy grappled, getting a better grip, stabbing a jagged gauntlet spike
through the armpit seal of the Deathwatch's imperator armour. Guilar staggered, and as he fell back, a massive backhanded slap knocked him over and tore his helmet off.
The Chaos Marine landed on the sprawling Guilar, tearing at his throat, driving fists like boulders into his face.
There was a bang of weapon discharge and a flash. His face destroyed and his collapsed skull burning from the inside, the Chaos filth fell back into the swamp water.
Guilar rose, unsteady, his storm bolter in his hand, blood pouring from the wounds in his face and neck.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, its so good, in fact, that it leaves one wondering why most of their armoured vehicles are such useless paper-mache deathtraps by comparison.

COST.

How many times need this be explained?

A Russ can just be stamped out of whatever's on hand. There will be Leman Russes in service that are made out of pig iron. Space Marine armour is made out of ceramite and other super materials. It is always made ouf of these, manufactured at a universally high quality. So, also, are space marine tanks.

Note that broadside battlesuits have never been seen to fight Space Marine tanks (that I'm aware of) and certainly not defeat them as effortlessly as they defeat the tanks that the second-line troops they attack in expanding their empire (most of these examples are Tau annexing human worlds, remember) use.