WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

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WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-10-05 07:25pm

a quick snippet; the galactic map on pages 30-31 indicates a Cobra Destroyer in the service of the Death Spectre chapter has a crew of 5 Space Marines and 150 serfs. No indication of the number of servitors.

However, the map itself, despite showing the locations of dozens of chapter homeworlds, manages to get them wrong - at least, the planets shown on both this map and the map in the 40K 5th edition rulebook on pages 116-117, are in different places. Specifically, Terra, Baal, Fenris and Ultramar are all shifted - and not all in the same way. Most egregiously, they've somehow placed Armageddon to the north-west of the Eye of Terror! :roll:

(regarding Armageddon, it says " Current projections indicate operations will extend well into M42 or beyond". Not particularly surprising, but still.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-10-05 07:27pm

Argh. Meant to say; there's a planet listed on the map, well into the halo on the south-west, in the path of Hive Fleet Behemoth, called Repentance. It's an artificial world, home of the "Nameless" chapter.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Todeswind » 2008-10-05 08:23pm

Good grief would it kill GW to have SOME sort of continuity.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Todeswind » 2008-10-05 08:27pm

And while I'm at it how is a ship that's roughly 1500 meters long function with a crew of 150? ISD's ( a ship of comparable size) require crews of thousands to run, let alone function in battle conditions. There must be an ungodly number of mono-tasked servitors.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Zablorg » 2008-10-05 08:32pm

Todeswind wrote:Good grief would it kill GW to have SOME sort of continuity.
Actually, this is just about the first major inconsistency I've ever seen, barring some authors of course. What are some other examples?
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Todeswind » 2008-10-05 08:49pm

Gw maps are wildly inconsistent with one another in the 40k universe, I've been playing the game for about ten years now and I love it to bits but I'll be buggered if they ever bother do do much more than take a casual glance at other materials before writing the ruddy maps.

They've gotten better about this over time but as a whole they used to royally suck at this.

Of course my primary method of illustrating this is offline.
http://www.darkmillennia.net/galaxyMap.htm

or

http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html

And lets be honest if we were to read every bit of fluff as cannon all armies in 40k are conquering each other on a d6 roll of a 1+ as of last tuesday for the second time.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Todeswind » 2008-10-05 08:53pm

It's also worth mentioning that GW has yet to put earth on even close to the right part of the milky way.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Lancer » 2008-10-05 09:21pm

Todeswind wrote:And while I'm at it how is a ship that's roughly 1500 meters long function with a crew of 150? ISD's ( a ship of comparable size) require crews of thousands to run, let alone function in battle conditions. There must be an ungodly number of mono-tasked servitors.
Servitors aren't typically counted under crew, but are able to perform the same tasks. There are even Servitors who are able to oversee and coordinate other servitors, directing them to complete complex tasks. The only issue arises during boarding actions, as Servitors aren't very combat-effective. However, Space Marine chapters also typically use their ships in an assault-transport role, so even with a crew of 5 marines and 150 chapter serfs, there will likely be a few squads and attatched support personnel aboard who aren't counted as part of the normal crew compliment.

The only major exceptions I can think of are the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels, both of which maintain a significant fleet presence around their respective domains. However, the Ultramarines run a little paradise version of the Imperium complete with Imperial Guard and Navy analogues and a chain of command that ends in the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, while the Dark Angels and descendants maintain a massive cordon around the ruins of Caliban.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Todeswind » 2008-10-05 09:26pm

I love how the Ultramarines basically created the codex laws and then decided that the rules about things like having a private army and navy don't apply to them.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Venator » 2008-10-05 09:42pm

Given how the new book pretty much butchers Codex organization, I don't think it's surprising for there to be a bunch of other failings in terms of consistency (or logic).

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-10-06 01:55am

Didn't you forget the bit about the Space Marine Chapter that Kamikazie'd into the Necron Death Star...I mean World Machine (?) after it BDZ'd three planets? Or Captain Sicarius kicking seven shades of shit out of the Tau, then having some Deus Ex come in to save the Otaku honeytrap from 40k reality?
I love how the Ultramarines basically created the codex laws and then decided that the rules about things like having a private army and navy don't apply to them.
Now, they were just being proactive. Alice Cooper sized doses of GRIMDARK/TIME OF ENDING! have made SM Chapter Masters the governors of systems, sub-sectors and sectors by the order of the 13. Didn't you know that the Tyranids have eaten 12 Galaxies and the Golden Throne's broke and the AM can't fix it?

Facepalm. Anyway.

The Rulebook is a lot of fun. Beside establishing that the IoM has a human population at least in the single digit quadrillions (p.115. 154 Billion per Hive world x 3.238x10^4 Hive Worlds), 35 of the IoM's planets are provide an absolute minimum of 650 million Guardsmen per year (p.135). Of course, Krieg is nowhere to be found on the map of notable Guard Planets. Hive world garrisons not in warzones tend to hover around 10 million soldiers (making Canada look like Sparta), so that gives us...323 Billion Hive World PDF assuming I carried all the zeros correctly.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by NecronLord » 2008-10-06 01:57am

Todeswind wrote:I love how the Ultramarines basically created the codex laws and then decided that the rules about things like having a private army and navy don't apply to them.
There are no such rules. Just like the codex astartes actually allows a chapter to reach infinite size, thanks to the number in the tenth company being unlimited.

Also, the necron death star is called The World Engine, and I'd really say it's much more likely to be a tomb-world, mobilised. Not least because there's no way a mere thousand marines could do enough damage to a true constructed vessel the size of a planet to incapacitate it. It does, incidentally, confirm planet-killer proof necron planetary shields (from Planetkill) and t hat sufficient cyclonics can blow a planet up. Not to mention, a full on planet-sized craft would surely be able to do more than simply destroy the surface of a planet. Also, a planet with an inertialess drive is much more Lensman than a planet-sized death star.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Zablorg » 2008-10-06 02:45am

NecronLord wrote:
Todeswind wrote:I love how the Ultramarines basically created the codex laws and then decided that the rules about things like having a private army and navy don't apply to them.
There are no such rules. Just like the codex astartes actually allows a chapter to reach infinite size, thanks to the number in the tenth company being unlimited.

Also, the necron death star is called The World Engine, and I'd really say it's much more likely to be a tomb-world, mobilised. Not least because there's no way a mere thousand marines could do enough damage to a true constructed vessel the size of a planet to incapacitate it. It does, incidentally, confirm planet-killer proof necron planetary shields (from Planetkill) and t hat sufficient cyclonics can blow a planet up. Not to mention, a full on planet-sized craft would surely be able to do more than simply destroy the surface of a planet. Also, a planet with an inertialess drive is much more Lensman than a planet-sized death star.
It does have a vent right?

It would be pretty cool if the Imperium's survival depended on their use of the Achilles vent and they refused because that's not the way things are done in a blessed Imperium.

Incidentally, why would they want to blow up or otherwise wipe out all life on a planet? I thought their goal was to harvest stuff?
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by NecronLord » 2008-10-06 03:26am

Zablorg wrote:It does have a vent right?

It would be pretty cool if the Imperium's survival depended on their use of the Achilles vent and they refused because that's not the way things are done in a blessed Imperium.
Nah. They rammed a battle barge through its shields while it was distracted by a fleet attack, and then an entire chapter went on a big rampage that ended up almost exterminating them to a man, but bringing the shield down. At which point a massive fleet bombardment followed.
Incidentally, why would they want to blow up or otherwise wipe out all life on a planet? I thought their goal was to harvest stuff?
These are fifth ed interesting necrons. Chances are it was a necron lord deciding 'what'd be awesome, is if we made the planet fly around destroying meatbags...'
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Zablorg » 2008-10-06 05:03am

I hear the Eldar are getting their asses kicked again as a testament to the Marine's might.

Christ, how many Eldar are there after the fall that they can afford to be bitchslapped like this? I mean (Daemon Codex spoilers- quote to see) [size=0]they had an entire fucking craftworld taken down by the shenanigans of a Tzeenchian daemon one time.[/size] :lol:
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Teleros » 2008-10-06 06:47am

Zablorg wrote:Christ, how many Eldar are there after the fall that they can afford to be bitchslapped like this?
I wonder this every time I play Dawn of War and the AI controls some Eldar...
NecronLord wrote:Not to mention, a full on planet-sized craft would surely be able to do more than simply destroy the surface of a planet.
Although keeping the planet intact (bar the surface) would make sense if you want to use it again.
Also, a planet with an inertialess drive is much more Lensman than a planet-sized death star.
Difference being the Galactic Patrol used them as armed & shielded missiles :lol: . Why 40k has never used this (especially with orks and necrons around) I have no idea.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by NecronLord » 2008-10-06 07:05am

Well, presumably that loss of a craftworld occured shortly after the Fall, when many supposedly didn't make it to become aspect-warrior-weilding, farseer-run, hives of industry and bastions of civilization.
Teleros wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Not to mention, a full on planet-sized craft would surely be able to do more than simply destroy the surface of a planet.
Although keeping the planet intact (bar the surface) would make sense if you want to use it again.
Humm. Though I don't think there's any implication that they want to.
Also, a planet with an inertialess drive is much more Lensman than a planet-sized death star.
Difference being the Galactic Patrol used them as armed & shielded missiles :lol: . Why 40k has never used this (especially with orks and necrons around) I have no idea.
Only the necrons have the power to do so reliably (chaos can, but it requires all sorts of funky rituals, and it's hardly the same as cruising about realspace). And who knows, they might look a lot like the GP if they're making war seriously. Inertialess drive exo-suits and planet-smashing left right and centre.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by SAMAS » 2008-10-09 12:08pm

Zablorg wrote:I hear the Eldar are getting their asses kicked again as a testament to the Marine's might.

Christ, how many Eldar are there after the fall that they can afford to be bitchslapped like this? I mean (Daemon Codex spoilers- quote to see) [size=0]they had an entire fucking craftworld taken down by the shenanigans of a Tzeenchian daemon one time.[/size] :lol:
In the codex, a minor chapter wiped out a minor Craftworld, then got their asses kicked by Biel-Tan in response.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by white_rabbit » 2008-10-10 06:54am

The 5th edition rulebook seems to indicate that at the moment, the general Imperium policy is not to engage in a war of annihilation with the eldar, since its like sticking your dick in a meat-grinder to remove a wart.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Ryan Thunder » 2008-10-10 09:03pm

Falkenhayn wrote:Or Captain Sicarius kicking seven shades of shit out of the Tau, then having some Deus Ex come in to save the Otaku honeytrap from 40k reality?
Yes, yes, the same reality where they expect me to simultaneously accept that not only is fucking melee combat a possibility with regular human-equivalent troops under these conditions, but that a bayonet charge is as effective as a close-range firefight involving semi- and fully automatic laser rifles that blow football sized holes in people. :wtf:
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-10-11 11:47am

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Yes, yes, the same reality where they expect me to simultaneously accept that not only is fucking melee combat a possibility with regular human-equivalent troops under these conditions, but that a bayonet charge is as effective as a close-range firefight involving semi- and fully automatic laser rifles that blow football sized holes in people. :wtf:
What are you talking about?
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Zablorg » 2008-10-11 08:43pm

Falkenhayn wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Yes, yes, the same reality where they expect me to simultaneously accept that not only is fucking melee combat a possibility with regular human-equivalent troops under these conditions, but that a bayonet charge is as effective as a close-range firefight involving semi- and fully automatic laser rifles that blow football sized holes in people. :wtf:
What are you talking about?
He's saying that logic shouldn't apply that much in the same setting that military folk consider melee combat a perfectly viable strategy over blowing holes in people with laser beams.

Duh.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-10-11 09:43pm

Zablorg wrote:
Falkenhayn wrote: He's saying that logic shouldn't apply that much in the same setting that military folk consider melee combat a perfectly viable strategy over blowing holes in people with laser beams.

Duh.
Ok. My post, for everybody that knows how to read, is a criticism of GW Fiat and Uber GRIMDARK. So is he trying to criticize me by agreeing with me? Maybe he ought to speak for himself? See that looked kind of like a call-out on something, and I'd like the author to explain exactly what he's calling me out on.

And if he is in fact making the case that too much logic is applied to 40k, I'd like to know 'where' and 'how' and what things in 40k have no logical explanation. If you want to raise that standard, by all means, do so.
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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Feil » 2008-10-12 01:48am

Didn't you watch We Were Soldiers? Bayonette charges slow down the world and play music and aliens* die!

*brown people

I suppose one could attempt to justify bayonet charges working by assuming that they're not actually using the bayonets so much as shooting them at point blank range while occasionally using the bayonet or butt while appropriate. And to be fair, a bayonet charge in the tabletop game is strictly LESS effective than shooting at them, because no matter how crappy their stats are, Guardsmen still get the same number of attacks with a higher chance of killing the enemy in ranged combat, and don't stand to lose some of their own during their own turn. The only reason any sane player would put guardsmen in melee in either tabletop or the Dawn of War is to slow the enemy down.

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Re: WH40K: 5th edition Codex: Space Marines

Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-10-12 02:22am

Feil wrote:Didn't you watch We Were Soldiers? Bayonette charges slow down the world and play music and aliens* die!

*brown people

I suppose one could attempt to justify bayonet charges working by assuming that they're not actually using the bayonets so much as shooting them at point blank range while occasionally using the bayonet or butt while appropriate. And to be fair, a bayonet charge in the tabletop game is strictly LESS effective than shooting at them, because no matter how crappy their stats are, Guardsmen still get the same number of attacks with a higher chance of killing the enemy in ranged combat, and don't stand to lose some of their own during their own turn. The only reason any sane player would put guardsmen in melee in either tabletop or the Dawn of War is to slow the enemy down.
Why should we try to justify them? We've got friggin' stacks of books on the Guard, where the hell are all these bayonet charges?
Many thanks! These darned computers always screw me up. I calculated my first death-toll using a hand-cranked adding machine (we actually calculated the average mortality in each city block individually). Ah, those were the days.
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