Cadia in the Stargateverse

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Cadia in the Stargateverse

Post by Zor » 2008-09-17 01:16am

One day in the forty-first Milenium, Q decides to be a dick and scoops up Cadia (as well as a Daedalus-Class Cruiser and three Cobra class destroyers) in the Stargateverse as of the begining of Season 8, with everyone on the planet being given a vision of the Emperor telling them that they have been sent to an alertnate Dimention as an unavoidable side-effect of closing the Eye of Terror. They are deposited in a star system which has another habitable planet in it, which has a generic Goa'uld Bronze Age mining civilization (and a fair deal of Naquedah still on it) on it and a working gate.

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-17 01:17am

The lunatic warhammer fundamentalists conquer all galaxies we know about with almost effortless ease.

And then the friggin necrons on Cadia come out to play.

Seriously. What made you think there was any vague fairness here?
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Post by Lord Revan » 2008-09-17 01:31am

isn't Cadia the most fortified system in the imperium after the Sol system (aka Holy Terra and Mars)?
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Post by darthbob88 » 2008-09-17 01:51am

NecronLord wrote:The lunatic warhammer fundamentalists conquer all galaxies we know about with almost effortless ease.

And then the friggin necrons on Cadia come out to play.

Seriously. What made you think there was any vague fairness here?
The fact that, while it is Warhammer vs. Stargate, it's one planet and a few ships versus the galaxy? I must agree with you, though, this would be a curb-stomp.

At their kindest, the Cadians would convert the galaxy much like the Ori would have, in order to create another Imperium.

Although, without either an Emperor to serve, or Chaos to combat, what would Imperial citizens do? Get on with their lives? Return to a less martial existence?
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Post by Teleros » 2008-09-17 05:24am

It might be interesting to see what those Cadians do whilst curbstomping everyone...

- Ancients = daemons? I mean, the Ori get power from believers which isn't so far from what the Chaos gods do. And just look at Anubis...
- Stargates = Eldar webway portals? Bring along the demo charges or actually use the Starget network? Depends on who finds it first I guess.
- Goa'uld slaves etc given the choice between worshipping the Emperor or death... or worshipping the Goa'uld or death (of course the Cadians have bigger guns on their side so I know what I'd do, but your typical bronze age types don't).
- War with the Asgard? They certainly don't look human to me, and Cadia has a lot of Inquisitors on it.

However, how will the Cadians deal with all the magitech, time travel and such in the SG-verse? All it takes is for the Asgard to pop them in a bubble of slow time or whatever they tried on the Replicators, and you'd at least have contained the threat (well... Warp drives might let you get out, but that's still much easier to handle than the whole planet).

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Post by dragon » 2008-09-17 06:14am

The advantage the SG verse would have is better drives for hyperspace, better comms, and some decent planet busters. So they could hyper into the atmosphere with a few mark 9's. But even messing up the planet most likely won't stop the Cadians.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-17 06:18am

dragon wrote:The advantage the SG verse would have is better drives for hyperspace, better comms,
Unfortunately, stargate tech is readily adapted by modern Earth. The Mechanicus would have no problem just taking those technologies for themselves, and they've far more power to pump into them.
and some decent planet busters. So they could hyper into the atmosphere with a few mark 9's. But even messing up the planet most likely won't stop the Cadians.
Except only the Tau'ri do that kind of thing. And if they did, it would end badly for them... Especially as they only have one ship at this point, and it'd be effortlessly shot out of the sky.

And canonically, if you smack Cadia enough, the Necrons proceed to jump out of their tombs and aid the locals...
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Post by harbringer » 2008-09-17 06:26am

Necronlord i'm not saying your wrong but when have the necron's aided anyone but themselves or their C'tan. Metal life hating skeletons with absurd tech is all bad in the 41st millenium let alone stargate.
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Post by dragon » 2008-09-17 06:50am

NecronLord wrote:
dragon wrote:The advantage the SG verse would have is better drives for hyperspace, better comms,
Unfortunately, stargate tech is readily adapted by modern Earth. The Mechanicus would have no problem just taking those technologies for themselves, and they've far more power to pump into them.
and some decent planet busters. So they could hyper into the atmosphere with a few mark 9's. But even messing up the planet most likely won't stop the Cadians.
Except only the Tau'ri do that kind of thing. And if they did, it would end badly for them... Especially as they only have one ship at this point, and it'd be effortlessly shot out of the sky.

And canonically, if you smack Cadia enough, the Necrons proceed to jump out of their tombs and aid the locals...
Fine SGC people just blow up the sun then which they've done before.
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Post by Black Admiral » 2008-09-17 06:53am

harbringer wrote:Necronlord i'm not saying your wrong but when have the necron's aided anyone but themselves or their C'tan.
Its not direct aid, but during the 13th Black Crusade the Necrons helped out the forces of good by laying into a Chaos fleet & Blackstone Fortress over Cadia.
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Post by Lancer » 2008-09-17 11:01am

Almost all of Cadia's production is devoted to the manufacture of weapons and military equipment, to the point that pretty much the entirety of the Cadian Gate exists either to reinforce Cadia or provide it with supplies.

The Cadians pretty much have to go on a binge of conquest, or they'll starve to death.

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-17 02:48pm

harbringer wrote:Necronlord i'm not saying your wrong but when have the necron's aided anyone but themselves or their C'tan. Metal life hating skeletons with absurd tech is all bad in the 41st millenium let alone stargate.
Specifically, they came to the aid of guardsmen defending the pylons of Cadia from chaos attack during the 13th Black Crusade. While they dislike meatbags, and will at best accept their grovelling submission, they hate the warp, and the specific necrons on Cadia are there to keep the pylons on the surface intact. Whether they'll realise that those pylons aren't doing anything in this scenario is unknown, but under normal circumstances, mounting a large scale attack on the surface of Cadia sets them off.
dragon wrote:Fine SGC people just blow up the sun then which they've done before.
Something which requires them again to put their one and only capable starship in harm's way, and pray no Imperial ships survive to come ravage Earth and turn the United States into a massive smoking crater. That's exactly the kind of thing they do all the time with no preamble... oh, wait.

By the time the Tau'ri hear of them, as of season eight, they'll be eager to make friends with this powerful group of humano-centrics who're slapping the Goa'uld all over the shop with consummate ease.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-17 03:02pm

Lancer wrote:Almost all of Cadia's production is devoted to the manufacture of weapons and military equipment, to the point that pretty much the entirety of the Cadian Gate exists either to reinforce Cadia or provide it with supplies.

The Cadians pretty much have to go on a binge of conquest, or they'll starve to death.
Cadia's population is actually quite small - two hundred and fifty million. It's not a hive world; it's a garisson world there's plenty of (barely) arable land on Cadia, and the knowledge to bring it under cultivation. There are also many years of supplies for seiges in the Kasrs.

They can quite happily assign people to food production, and they'll have a strong AdMech contingent to provide the necessary knowledge (some agri worlds have truly miniscule populations).

Of course, they're much more likely to go on a binge of conquest and make the local dirtfarmers heed the omniprophets of the Mechanicus in reforming their food production and lifestyle, while putting all their alien enslavers up against walls and shooting them, anyway. Because it's within their power.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-09-17 03:43pm

NecronLord wrote:
Lancer wrote:Almost all of Cadia's production is devoted to the manufacture of weapons and military equipment, to the point that pretty much the entirety of the Cadian Gate exists either to reinforce Cadia or provide it with supplies.

The Cadians pretty much have to go on a binge of conquest, or they'll starve to death.
Cadia's population is actually quite small - two hundred and fifty million. It's not a hive world; it's a garisson world there's plenty of (barely) arable land on Cadia, and the knowledge to bring it under cultivation. There are also many years of supplies for seiges in the Kasrs.

They can quite happily assign people to food production, and they'll have a strong AdMech contingent to provide the necessary knowledge (some agri worlds have truly miniscule populations).

Of course, they're much more likely to go on a binge of conquest and make the local dirtfarmers heed the omniprophets of the Mechanicus in reforming their food production and lifestyle, while putting all their alien enslavers up against walls and shooting them, anyway. Because it's within their power.
Are Imperium worlds at all dependent on space trade for things such as basic foodstuffs? Given their relatively poor FTL and limited commerce, should that not be a huge problem if that were so? I would imagine that all planets would be self-sufficient, at least in basic necessities; Agriworld goods would probably be mostly luxury items. Or is this contradicted somewhere? I know 40k reasonably well, but I am by no means an expert.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-17 03:55pm

Darth Hoth wrote: Are Imperium worlds at all dependent on space trade for things such as basic foodstuffs? Given their relatively poor FTL and limited commerce, should that not be a huge problem if that were so? I would imagine that all planets would be self-sufficient, at least in basic necessities; Agriworld goods would probably be mostly luxury items. Or is this contradicted somewhere? I know 40k reasonably well, but I am by no means an expert.
As a rule, Hive Worlds are. And it's worth noting that on an intra-sector level, the space-travel is quite reliable. You can reliably make four light year jumps even without a navigator, and this is what a lot of the lesser trading ships do.

The Imperium's crisis response times suck, but if you send a ship full of corn to the hive every month without fail, so long as noone sets out to stop it, as a rule, the supply will be good and solid.

There are some agri-domes in many hives, too, and even gardens. But there's many, many references to food and other necessities being shipped around.
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Post by Adrian Laguna » 2008-09-17 04:25pm

Did they transport the planet Cadia, or the sytem Cadia? Because the Cadian system consists of the planet Cadia itself, one or two forgeworlds, and I think another inhabited planet. If Q transports the system to the Stargate 'verse, they'll eventually start fucking even with the Asguard, since the forgeworlds can likely be modified for starship production.
NecronLord wrote:Cadia's population is actually quite small - two hundred and fifty million.
Out of that 250 million, 179 million are under arms at any given time.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-17 04:53pm

The dependency thing tends to be variable depending on the source you cite, but generally I've seen it as being thus:

- the member worlds of the Imperium are depednent upon trade and one another inasmuch as it applies to maintaining the status quo (keeping up current population and industrial rates, fuelling various war efforts or meeting tithes, etc.)

And even here, it largely depends on the world in question - only the "specialized" world will have some depednency (IE forge worlds and hive worlds need food and resources from mining and agri worlds to sustain themselves, while agri worlds and mining worlds might need the manufactured goods from hive and forge worlds.)

By and large though, most "civilized" worlds (to which I'd add the smaller hives that still have a habitable atmosphere, industrial worlds, some feral/feudal worlds, ,etc.) can more or less fend for themselves and basic needs without extensive imporrting (though you might get luxury items or key technologies this way still.)

Hell, as already noted, the "dependency" rule isn't even hard and fast for places like Hive Worlds. Necromunda, for example, has a thriving underhive ecology that manages to feed its teeming population (which matches or exceceds anything in the upper hives) without much problem. And Hives and Forge Worlds both tend to be extremely good at recycling and reusing existing resources - organic matter may be reconstituted into food (yes, even dead human bodies will be in some Hives), and the lower and uninhabited levels of the Hive itself may be plundered for vital resources (this too happens at Necromunda, but I do believe as well they still have mining going on too.) If a Hive world suddenly stopped getting food shipments, you'd probably see people dying off in job lots (the population decreasing) but so long as the hives themselves were maintained, ,the planet would still probably exist with a sizable (but significantly reduced) population (and as a result a reduced industrial or military capacity.)

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-17 05:22pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:Out of that 250 million, 179 million are under arms at any given time.
Hey, I never said it wasn't militarised. I was saying that there's no reason to think that Cadia, a mostly-healthy human world, lacks space for farming should it be isolated.

And the OP to me seems to suggest just the planet...
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Post by Zor » 2008-09-17 06:47pm

NecronLord wrote:And the OP to me seems to suggest just the planet...
Correct.

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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-09-18 11:19am

NecronLord wrote:As a rule, Hive Worlds are. And it's worth noting that on an intra-sector level, the space-travel is quite reliable. You can reliably make four light year jumps even without a navigator, and this is what a lot of the lesser trading ships do.
That does make it easier, I suppose. Still, with interstellar travel being as rare and expensive as the setting supposes, it is hard to see how shipping foodstuffs can be profitable compared to growing them locally, even in relatively hostile environments. To my layman's knowledge of economics, that does not appear very realistic.

Ah, well; if it is in the canon, that is so. My thanks for your reply.
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Post by Lord Revan » 2008-09-18 11:51am

well you're forgetting why warp travel is so rare and expensive, it's because ships tend to get lost in the warp sometimes, however the main threats in the warp tend be attracted to souls (especially souls of psykers) and food transport would have less of those souls then say a warship or a passenger liner.

also a food transport could have less crew then warship of same size as it's not intended to engage in combat.

ofc all these won't remove the threat of the Warp but could reduce it enough
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-09-18 12:08pm

Given that, assuming that I recall this correctly, your average planet can only build a single warship at a time, I would think that is not the whole explanation. Ship construction appears rather difficult and expensive. And unless 40k ships are powered by one hundred percent magic-wankery and completely flaunt conservation of energy (that is, even worse than space epics usually do), the fuel cost alone should easily outstrip the value of the volume of produce it could reasonably ship. "Plasma reactors" is a bit vague, but any fuel that can provide power for FTL and the weapons outputs 40k casually throws around should be stupendously exotic; think Hypermatter.
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Post by Solauren » 2008-09-18 01:47pm

The only in-universe ways I've seen to deal with this problem.

#1- Asguard Time Dilation field, set to 1 second for them = really long time from us (Whatever the maximum setting is)

#2 - Fly in with a Stargate (under cloak), dial a Stargate near a black hole, and toss it at Cardia's sun.

#3 - Naqadria Bomb + remote disabling of enemy Stargate. Hopefully, the Naqadria bomb will convert all the Naqadah on the planet into Naqadria and blow the planet to hell

#4 - Modified Replicator Disruptor Weapons, programed to affect Carbon molecular bonds (organics) / The Dakara Superweapon.

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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-18 06:18pm

Darth Hoth wrote:the fuel cost alone should easily outstrip the value of the volume of produce it could reasonably ship.
Sublight fuel costs appear negligable. Just one comparatively small small fuel pumping installation produced gigatons of potential energy in one shipment (Caves of Ice) of its space-petrol. Travelling through the warp has an unknown energy requirement, and is certainly magic.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-09-18 06:22pm

Solauren wrote:The only in-universe ways I've seen to deal with this problem.

#1- Asguard Time Dilation field, set to 1 second for them = really long time from us (Whatever the maximum setting is)

#2 - Fly in with a Stargate (under cloak), dial a Stargate near a black hole, and toss it at Cardia's sun.

#3 - Naqadria Bomb + remote disabling of enemy Stargate. Hopefully, the Naqadria bomb will convert all the Naqadah on the planet into Naqadria and blow the planet to hell

#4 - Modified Replicator Disruptor Weapons, programed to affect Carbon molecular bonds (organics) / The Dakara Superweapon.
All these require the Cadians to all be sitting at home waiting to die. Even one cobra could, after getting a hyperdrive (and remember, modern earthers can do that; the mechanicus may be rote-obsessed, but they're also cybernetic geniuses), happily exterminate the civilization that did so. The Asgard would be much better off staying the fuck out of their way; same with the Tau'ri - The Cadians aren't going to brutalise a knockoff of Holy Terra unless they're given cause to.

And this is the beginning season eight. No one (save possibly the Asurans) has the knowhow to make chon-disruptor weapons.
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