Small Feral Ork question

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Zablorg
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Small Feral Ork question

Post by Zablorg » 2008-09-13 01:48am

I was reading about feral orks just now, and a theme that (naturally) keeps popping up is their aversion to technology, and primitive speech and such. What generates this apparent lack of intelligence that kultured ork tribes do not have? Is it because the non-existent Waaagh field means that the innate Ork abilities are "underfueled"? Would that indicate that all Ork tribes begin feral at an early stage?
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2008-09-13 01:58am

Presumably it's a significant evolutionary (or de-evolutionary) advancement. It's all genetics, so the lack of Mekboyz is just a genetic anomaly. Without Mekboyz, there's no real technological development with an Ork community.
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Post by Cykeisme » 2008-09-13 04:04am

It may have something to do with numbers as well.

It's known that the appearance of specialized Ork types don't appear until the population on a world gets large enough.
Considering how both fluff and game rules always emphasises that a greater number of Orks in one place makes each individual Ork more powerful, it would make sense that small communities have less access to social and tech organization and abilities (and are therefore "feral").

Left unchecked, as a feral Ork community's population grows, so does its technological ability, until it rises to the "advanced" Ork level.
Incidentally they start to fragment into different tribes and fight with each other as well, getting bigger and more aggressive in the process.

Even the smallest Ork infestations eventually culminate in in a Waagh, given sufficient time without external interference.

Conversely, the spore concentrations left behind by Ghazghkull's Waaagh ended up spawning initial-level feral Ork infestations on Armageddom Prime.

On another note, I posit that Mekboy instinctive technological aptitude isn't simply genetically encoded knowledge, but Mekboys have the genetic ability to tap into the warp (the Waaagh bit) to download Orky teknolojikal know-wots.
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-09-13 07:44am

So it depends on the number of orks for the mekboyz to get their act together?

Speaking of, isn't the whole point of ork technology kind of redundant anyway? If the weapons effectiveness is based on the orks perception of the weapon (how big n meen it lookz), is there really much advancement of technology in the sense of the word? Why, you might as well paint all their guns red and add spikes to them and it would probably have a similar effect to making the gun hit harder.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-09-13 09:42am

Zablorg wrote: Speaking of, isn't the whole point of ork technology kind of redundant anyway? If the weapons effectiveness is based on the orks perception of the weapon (how big n meen it lookz), is there really much advancement of technology in the sense of the word?
As far as the Orks are concerned, "advancement" is synonymous with "bigga." There's not a whole lot of difference between on Boyz' slugga and another's, but the bigger it gets, the more powerful it gets, and more importantly, the more powerful the Boyz think it is.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2008-09-13 10:38am

but Mekboys have the genetic ability to tap into the warp (the Waaagh bit) to download Orky teknolojikal know-wots.
The orkish Gestalt is supposed to allow for the fast spread of ideas throughout orkish populations according to the background, so it could be a combination of the ideas, but with the feral ork populations, there are few or no higher tech Meks to download from.

Like a game of spore where no-one has all the parts
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Post by Stormbringer » 2008-09-13 09:32pm

Zablorg wrote:So it depends on the number of orks for the mekboyz to get their act together?

Speaking of, isn't the whole point of ork technology kind of redundant anyway? If the weapons effectiveness is based on the orks perception of the weapon (how big n meen it lookz), is there really much advancement of technology in the sense of the word? Why, you might as well paint all their guns red and add spikes to them and it would probably have a similar effect to making the gun hit harder.
As much as people here talk about the effect of the orkish gestalt, it's not the only thing driving ork technology and it's effectiveness is often overstated by some board members. It's far more of an enhancement, a bit more oomph and a bit more reliable as it were, than the only thing keeping them working.

Incidentally, an extremely good example of this is Death or Glory in which human guerillas and refugees make extended use of orkish vehicles. They're ramshackle and often rather dangerous but they will work. The tech-priests are a bit surprised they work in the condition but they're far from "these can't be working."

So no, advancement is not an impossible concept to orks. For that matter, they have (or did as of the last addition) things like zap-guns and other stuff that's higher tech than just stock bolter tech.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2008-09-14 10:04am

Orks have some really quite cool forcefield tech, although it can be more a case of implementation than it being more advanced than say, the Imperium.

Bubble-chukkas for example, erect a forcefield around enemy vehicles, then the orks laugh hysterically as the enemy fire and get destroyed by their own point blank weapons fire or something similar. Deathrays, shield ignoring disintigrators in the vein of gauss flayers, the large gun on a Megagargant actually uses a traktor beam to propel its rounds and maintain a high rate of fire.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-09-14 11:43am

The Ork Shokk Attack Gun even generates tunnels through the warp - similar to Webway tunnels, I'd imagine, only shorter-ranged and -lived, and slightly more porous.

It's probably no longer the case, but originally Orks used more teleprter technologies than the Imperium simply because the Orks' physiology could survive the experience. The original rules for the Shokk Attack Gun emtnoined that Orks could "walk in and out of teleport beams that would shred a human". It's the same reason why only Terminators teleported.

Knowing GW, they've retconned that now. :(
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-09-14 03:12pm

andrewgpaul wrote: It's probably no longer the case, but originally Orks used more teleprter technologies than the Imperium simply because the Orks' physiology could survive the experience. The original rules for the Shokk Attack Gun emtnoined that Orks could "walk in and out of teleport beams that would shred a human". It's the same reason why only Terminators teleported.

Knowing GW, they've retconned that now. :(
It was never than Terminators were the only humans capable of being teleported, although they were (and maybe still are, don't follow the wargame that closely) the only unit the had teleport homing equipment as standard. Teleportation has an element of danger and can be quite stressful on the body. High grade teleportation homers (which Terminators have) and superhumanly tough bodies greatly reduce those risks.
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Post by Jaevric » 2008-09-14 05:49pm

The fact that the Orks really aren't going to be terribly concerned if a teleport goes horribly wrong and kills the people teleporting probably helps.

Hell, if the Orks invaded an area the hard way that a previous group of Orks had teleported into, and found them all buried up to their necks in the floors, they'd probably think it was funny.

Orkish technology would probably be a lot less effective for Orks if they actually considered something backfiring and killing the users to be a disadvantage.

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-09-14 06:17pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:
andrewgpaul wrote: It's probably no longer the case, but originally Orks used more teleprter technologies than the Imperium simply because the Orks' physiology could survive the experience. The original rules for the Shokk Attack Gun emtnoined that Orks could "walk in and out of teleport beams that would shred a human". It's the same reason why only Terminators teleported.

Knowing GW, they've retconned that now. :(
It was never than Terminators were the only humans capable of being teleported, although they were (and maybe still are, don't follow the wargame that closely) the only unit the had teleport homing equipment as standard. Teleportation has an element of danger and can be quite stressful on the body. High grade teleportation homers (which Terminators have) and superhumanly tough bodies greatly reduce those risks.
The quote I was thinking of is
on page 104, 'Ere We Go wrote:Even with heavy shielding and complex suppressing systems, a Human or Eldar can only withstand low levels of exposure. However Orks are remarkably resilient creatures who feel very little pain and whose powers of recuperation are quite phenomenal. They can walk safely into and out of teleporter beams which would tear the nervous system of a human to shreds
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-09-15 02:01am

Speaking of Orky technological prowess, in Caves of Ice, a Gargant was able to ruin the shit of several Necron Monoliths. So, yeah.
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-09-15 04:14am

Gots me a quote from Ork Codex:
...Many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think they should work - the strong telekenetic abilities of the Ork subconcience somehow ensure they function as desired
Would this be an exageration on the part of "Genetor Lukas Anzion"? Or has the fourth edition codex been overruled by the almost just as recent 5th edition?
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Post by Zablorg » 2008-09-15 04:50am

And sorry for double post, but is the idea that a tribe begins as Feral orks and then once it becomes big enough becomes kultured? Or are there other factors involved?
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Post by Archaic` » 2008-09-15 10:58am

Zablorg wrote:Gots me a quote from Ork Codex:
...Many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think they should work - the strong telekenetic abilities of the Ork subconcience somehow ensure they function as desired
Would this be an exageration on the part of "Genetor Lukas Anzion"? Or has the fourth edition codex been overruled by the almost just as recent 5th edition?
I'd imagine that once removed from Orks for long enough, or being taken far enough from Orks, the psychic gestalt that allows them to work from belief isn't able to sustain them anymore. So Imp. Guard in the field who pick up an Ork gun and start shooting at them aren't going to have problems, but the Tech Priest on Mars examining those same guns later won't be able to get them to work. If Cain's group used Ork tech during...was it the 4th novel?...rather than just scavenged Imp. tech, that might be evidence that it could be enough to simply be on the same planet as an Ork infestation of sufficient size to get that tech to work.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-09-15 11:01am

You've overanalyzing it. Why the hell does an Orky trukk need magic warp fields to work? Arent combustion engines and wheels enough? Cain's crew weren't using Orky weapons that tellyported gretchins as projectiles, they used guns and slugthrowers. You don't need warp magic gestalt crap to make a gun work via hammer and propellants and recoil mechanisms and shit.

They had trukks with machineguns, mang.
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Post by Tanasinn » 2008-09-15 11:43am

I was under the impression that the whole "Orkz THINK it working" thing was a fallacy made up by the AdMech to explain why Orkz had functioning technology without machine spirits.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-09-15 01:32pm

Nah, there's an element of truth to it. It just gets overexaggerated, that's all. Plenty of Ork stuff just works, with no funny business required. Perhaps the Ork psychic field makes some of it work better (red wunz do go fasta, after all), or helps some of the wierder contraptions, such as Shokk Attak Guns and Zap Guns work, but it's not the root of all Ork engineering.
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Post by Covenant » 2008-09-15 02:22pm

Stuff like the red-painted stuff moving faster is only a very small improvement too--so it's not hard to imagine a very bizzare piece of Ork technology only functioning when some small part of it is being influenced, or for a mundane and very basic machinegun to work maybe a little better than it should when in Orky hands. The vast majority of their crap is fully functional technology whose blueprints seem to have been printed right into their genes. It's quite possible that anytime someone picks up an Ork device that doesn't work in their hands that they're simply using it wrong. Maybe they pull the trigger and it doesn't seem to fire, but they're not Orky enough to know you need to squeeze the front of the gun too, or something, or it requires a greater deal of strength, or maybe it just doesn't do anything at all, even in Ork hands, and the Orkz are just a little too dumb to realize it. You never know what some guardsman might interpert a piece of Ork Bitz to be.

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-09-15 02:29pm

Corect me if I'm wrong, but don't Armaggedon's Ork Hunters use autoguns on the basis that because the autoguns are louder and look and sound more powerful than lasguns, they actually do more damage to Orks, because they think they do more damage?

I could swear I saw that metioned here at SDN at some point.
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Post by Dark Hellion » 2008-09-15 03:40pm

It's from the second Last Chancers book, but it probably has more to do with Orkish psychology than psychics. An Ork injured by an autogun will probably think of itself as more injured, perhaps not fighting hard to stay alive til a doc can come along, or perhaps dropping its weapon to a hit in the arm that isn't actually damaging enough to make it incapable of holding its weapon.

Orkish Gestalt is a lot more like people who own old cars/computers than supermagicpsychic tech. You gotta hit the junk in the right way, hold it right (like cov said) and call it Betsy softly to make it work right.
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Post by Vendetta » 2008-09-15 04:28pm

Dark Hellion wrote: Orkish Gestalt is a lot more like people who own old cars/computers than supermagicpsychic tech. You gotta hit the junk in the right way, hold it right (like cov said) and call it Betsy softly to make it work right.
On the other hand, if you paint it red, it will go faster.

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Post by weemadando » 2008-09-15 04:33pm

And lets not forget Blood Ork camouflage that somehow works.

If an Ork thinks it should work it will. It's why no one else can use Ork weapons (reliably at least).

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Post by Vendetta » 2008-09-15 04:44pm

It's not wise to try and rationalise 40k. It runs on the Rule of Cool and unlimited Grimdark. It is not Serious Business, nor should it be treated as such. Especially when Orks are involved.

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