Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

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Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-01 01:50pm

Well, after a long hiatus from the Ghosts series I'm back to it. And I kick it off with myy favorite Ghost novel, Necropolis. Alot of folk say that Abnett writes his Ghosts novels very much like Bernard Cornwell's Richard Sharpe series. I happen to believe it too, and Necropolis is one of those books that makes you think it (another being Honour Guard and Sabbat Martyr.) I won't be going past Sabbat Martyr, simply because I am going to wait for an omnibus (I have the first two, and I plan to rread these much like I plan to reread the cain novels at some point. I'm saving much of th e"best for last" in other words.)

Necropolis has everything I think makes for a good Ghosts book: plenty of action, multiple storylines (though some do serve no apparent purpose - but they're minor ones.) difficulties to overcome, tension, and a definite and fabulous climax that gives Gaunt a eral chance to Shine.

Necropolis makrs the first of several novels up to Sabbat Martyr that also feature a fair bit of tank combat - this being the Narmenian armor - which also means we'll be seeing some Tank analysis.

Necropolis is also my favorite book because it marks the end of what I think of as the "Old Ghosts" type style of writing, at least in a technical sense. In the earlier novels Abnett seemed alot "freer" about certain aspects - lasguns seemd to behave more like thermal beam weapons, hotshot packs (like Larkins) were still multi-shot, the Ghosts used other weapons (meltaguns, heavy missile launchers chucking melta missiles, etc. - tho mainly Bragg was using the heavy stuff admittedly.)

Startting with Honur Guard and the introducin of the Verghast, their equipment becomes standardized more - flamers, autocannon/stubbers, and tread-fethers are the standard eqiupment for the Ghosts. Lasguns tend to behave more like projectile weapons (which isn't to say they can't, but the way Abnett writes them in many of the later novels, frankly, is downright bizarre - as if he thought they really WERE bullet weapons.) and of course hotshot rounds become single use. We do get alot of other technical tidbits that are interesting and become more comonplace, but I'll leave those for the later novels. Sufficed to say, the novels tend to change in more than one way (Writing, technical aspects, and characters.) and they continue this way by and large.

Anyhow, onto the first installment. This will be a fairly lengthy

Page 14
To the Magnificat's porrt side, the stone stilts of the Hass Viaduct, two hundred metres tall, cast long, cold shadows across the water.[
- Hass Viaduct is stated to be 200 metres tall.

Page 16

- Vervunhive mines extend over a mile into the ground. Note that its quite possible to argue that an Exterimantus would require melting the planetary crust to this depth (much like a BDZ).

Page 16
Five hundred thousand troops all told, plus another 70,000 auxiliaries and armour crews, a mighty force that manned the Curtain Wall and the wall forts of Vervunhive.

..

When foundings were ordered for the Imperial Guard, Vervunhive raised them from its forty billion-plus population.
Vervunhive has 500,000 troopers plus 70,000 auxiliaries and armour crews. Vervunhive's total population is "forty billion-plus" and the usual source of Regiments in tithing rather than the PDF forces. The PDF forces are considered lifelong careers.

Thee seems to be some confusion here. now it states 40 billion for the city, and later it says 40 million. 570,000 troops + auxilliaries out of 40 billion tends to suggest that 1:70,000 trooper/civilian ratio, while out of 4 million its roughly 1:70. The former may seem low, but it may be considered conservative (later, Zoica was noted to have 1/3 the population but producing far more troops the last time.) Also, the fact they dont use the PDF as Guard fodder also tends to suggest it might not be considered a "serious" force, its more of a holdover (a concept which does hold with the entire context of the PDF throughout the book, I might add, especially WRT Zoica and the discussions of the Last Trade War. Vervunhive arrogantly thinks they'll be able to handle Zoica again despite indications that things were different, and they get screwed as a result.)

Anyhow, the above ratios can be useful (though conservative) to estimating average PDF force sizes fora Hive City, from which we can likewise draw PDF tithes for the Guard.

Page 17]

- The Vervun Primary in this scene are being issued (or carry) autopistols and autoguns, rather than using lasguns.

Page 19

- Vervunhive has access to standard Leman Russ tanks. Their armoured regiments (or at least the First PRimary armoured depicted here) contains three huundred tanks.

Page 20

- Vervunhive has its own Commissariat, the Vervun Primary Hive Commissariat, or VPHC. It seems to be independent of the Administratum, but in the pocket of the ruling house (the Imperial Commander, for all intents and purposes) and behaves more liek a secret police force than as a disciplinary arm of the army.


Page 21
"Zoica mobilizes against us, High One! A new Trade War is upon us! Oribtal scans show this to be true!"
- Mention of "orbital scans" by a VErvunhive military leader - presumably either satellites, orbital defenses, starships, or possibly the latter-mentioned colonies. (or all of the above.)

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Post by Setzer » 2008-09-02 09:47am

I'm entirely certain the 40 billion figure is a typo. If Zoica had one third of 40 billion, they'd have brought even more then (IIRC) 6 million troops to the battle. 40 billion might be an acceptable figure for the entire hive world, but not a single Hive city.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-09-02 04:47pm

Setzer wrote:I'm entirely certain the 40 billion figure is a typo. If Zoica had one third of 40 billion, they'd have brought even more then (IIRC) 6 million troops to the battle. 40 billion might be an acceptable figure for the entire hive world, but not a single Hive city.
Forty million is also consistent with civilian casualty figures mentioned elsewhere in the novel, e.g. one and a half million people killed when the Zoicans assault the northern shore, millions of people flocking in from the outhabs, etc.

Personally, I would find it preposterous that a city with forty billion people living in it could only field an army of a half a million men and three hundred tanks. The police forces and hive-gangs for a city that size could probably outnumber and overpower the Vervun Primary if that were the case.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-06 02:35pm

As I recall the Zoican troops weren't totally quantified, but they


The real problem with the 40 billion figure is that that's the whole population of some hive worlds (Hydraphur) and that's just for one hive. More to the point, the damn place is still habitable outside the hives (As much of the fighting proves) without gasmasks or anything. THere aren't any ash wastes or anything like that really numerous and old Hives (like Necromunda or Armageddon) have. I dont think that you could sustain tens of billions of people per hive and still have a habitable enviroment regardless of advanced tech (40K DOES have means of making dead worlds habitable - cf Tallarn and Krieg and Valhalla, but it wouldnt look li - hell the Existsnece of Hives is proof of that) - but all the known "Hive Worlds" (as of 5th ed) are past the 100+ billion mark I believe (as with 3rd ed) and are distinctly uninhabitable outside the hives - which would make VErvunhive an aberration.

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-09-06 02:38pm

The 40 billion is a typo. Every other mention of numbers in the book contradicts it. Zoico's hive entire able bodied population, for example, is in their military, then there is the size of Vervunhive's military, the state the planet is in, etcetera etcetera.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-06 03:23pm

I'll also note that Vervunhive's military seems to be dramatically "under-militarized" given what Zoica managed (both in the last war and now) so that helps to give us bechnmarks for estimating PDF numbers (as well as potential guard tithes from PDF forces.)

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-09 12:18am

Second installment - more calcy than the first! Nods to Lost Soal who did one of the original calcs mainly, and thereby saved me some work.

Page 24
A Vervune tank a hundred meres away exploded and sent shockwaves of whickering shrapnel in all directions.

One shard grazed Kowle's temple and dropped him.
A 'Russ tank (Vervun Primary) blows up and sends dangerous/lethal shrapnel out to 100 metres away (but no significant blast wave or thermal effects.), which means a blast wave of about 100 m in radius. Measuring how nasty that is will take some time to figure out, but I'd guess its no more equal to say hundreds or thousands of kilos of TNT (of course that depends alot on what the tank is equipped with - fuel and propellant won't be as violent exploding as a high explosive shell neccearily. And as a rule, most Russes observed tend nto to blow up as catastrophically as this which tends to suggest fuel and propellant aren't a major contributor to the actual explosive effect.)

Page 25
...The first shells fell, unexpected, hurled by long-range guns beyond the horizon.

...

Dug-in Zoica armour and artillery, ,hidden out in the burning grasslands, found their range. Shells began to drop into the hive itself.
Artillery from beyond the horizon. On the map given the distance scaling this infers at least many tens of km range, although Lost Soal long ago analyzed the scene and came up with a range of 70+ km, given that the walls are at least 200 meters high.

What's even more telling is that while Lost Soal admits they may not be earthshakers, it doesn't really matter. We know that "armour" and "artillery" are both engaging, and both have similar rane. This should include self propelled guns, and even the non-Basilisk weapons typcially are considered equal to or inferior than the Guard types (Think fo the Urdeshi tanks used by the Blood Pact, and how ones like the Reaver are regarded as inferior.)

Note that while "armour" may infer tanks doing this, this doesn't neccesarily mean 40K tanks will ever engage each other from tens of km away. Fixed targets are a bit different than mobile targets, and aside from accuracy there are always issues of penetration. What it hints more at is a "multi-role" nature, as in tanks also being able to double as artillery (and vice versa) - or assault guns, or whatnot. Its not an unprecedented concept - Exterminator variants have been pressed into anti-aircraft roles despite being designed primarily as an antipersonnel vehicle, for example.

(Of course, if the tank was lobbing shaped charge munitions, they could in theory paste other tanks at range, although accuracy is still up for debate there.)

Page 25
A gigantic salvo hit the railhead at Veyveyr Gate and set it ablaze. Several more bracketed the Vervun Primary barracks and atomised over a thousand troopers waiting for deployment.
[/quote]

"Atomised" could reference vaporization, or it could simply just mean they were very finely pulverized To annihilate 1000 troopers that way would require hundreds of kilos of TNT equivalent (if comparing to the "botler firepwoer" thread needing more than a stick of TNT to effectively blow someone apart, which isn't strictly speaking going to fit "atomize."

If we infer vaporization, this could require hundreds of gigajoules. (1000 men, 70 kg per man, ~2.5 MJ per kg ot vaporize - humans being mostly water, remember.)

Page 28
Volleys of shells and long-range missiles pounded into the southern face of the Main Spine.
We learn here that the bombardment from "Beyond the horizon" includes shells as well as missiles/rockets. So not only do the artillery guns (and tanks/armour) have that range, but the missile/rocket platforms as well. Arguably, given the Basilisk/Manticore example, the rockets/missiles shoudl still be far longer ranged than the guns.

Page 29
Three shells hit Hass West Fort in a series. The first ignited the battery munitions. The second vaporised Corporal Bendace and sixteen other troopers. The third, a crippling shockwave, splintered the tower top and caused a vast chunk of rampart to slump away in a torrent of stone, dust and fire.
A single shell vaporizes seventeen men. 3-4 Gigajoules at least (17 men, say 60-70 kg, same vape energy as per above for the 1000 men figure.)

Page 30-31
"thousands of shells and missiles burst against it [Vervunhive's shield] evey minute, dimpling the cloudy energy and making it ripple and wobble like green gelatine.
Rate of bombardment of Vervunhive's energy shield, as well as an indication how much abuse (in a minute) it takes, especialyl given above the probable magnitude of the explosives used. Given the output estimates above, we can infer that the shield could absorb hundreds if not thousands of tons of TNT-equivalent munitions at a low end. (recall as well that this doesn't neccesarily mean "energy handling" per se - explosives are more complicated than an energy weapon.)

Page 31

- the population of the southern out"habs" (habitation zones) was stated to be nine million. Presumably the other habs are of similar magnitude (30-40 million "out hab".) This would tend to reinforce the idea that the "forty billion" figure is an error.

Page 32
One group of hab officials psent tow hours trying to find the correct rune code to let them into their assigned shelter and they were incinerated by a rocket before they could get the vault door open.
Multiple individuals incinerated by a rocket. Cremation level energies require multiple gigajoules minimum - hell, it could require gigajoules per person.

Page 32-33
Most cowered in the stinking slime under the dock wall, wailing plaintively up at the soldiers two hundred meters above them on the wall top, men who could do nothing to help them.
Part of the shield wall north of Hass West Fort, known as the Dock Wall, is stated to be two hundred meters tall. Useful because it reinforces Lost Soal's artillery calcs (as does the prior mention of 200 meters height)


Page 36

- the armoued column that departed to engage the Zoicans earlier (the First Armoured, presumably) was mentioned to be over 450 tanks here.

Page 44
The first shot blew Menx's spine out and he was flung face first into the cart, which broke under him and shattered. Troor turned and the decanter in his hand was shattered by the second shot. The third exploded his face, and he dorpped backwards onto the cart wreckage.
- needler has at least 3 shots in it. Curiously this weapon, unlike other examplers of needlers, seems to rely on kinetic/impact effects rather than toxins or lasers to do damage. Both kinds may work on similar principles. It may even be a variation on the time when the Imperium supposeldy had acceess to shuriken weapons (inquisition war and certain very old short stories)

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-09-09 12:33am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Page 30-31
"thousands of shells and missiles burst against it [Vervunhive's shield] evey minute, dimpling the cloudy energy and making it ripple and wobble like green gelatine.
Rate of bombardment of Vervunhive's energy shield, as well as an indication how much abuse (in a minute) it takes, especialyl given above the probable magnitude of the explosives used. Given the output estimates above, we can infer that the shield could absorb hundreds if not thousands of tons of TNT-equivalent munitions at a low end. (recall as well that this doesn't neccesarily mean "energy handling" per se - explosives are more complicated than an energy weapon.)

It should also be worth noting that Zoica does have access to nuclear weapons, but held off on using them on Vervunhive itself. This is most likely due to the Shield and Wall's sheer defensive ability. As you've shown, the Shield has the capacity to hold of multi-megaton yields constantly and without difficulty, and the Wall, despite not being as durable, survives some pretty intense bombardments as well.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-09-09 12:34am

Ghetto edit: gah, forgot the endquote tag :/
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Post by Swindle1984 » 2008-09-13 05:52pm

Peptuck wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: Page 30-31
"thousands of shells and missiles burst against it [Vervunhive's shield] evey minute, dimpling the cloudy energy and making it ripple and wobble like green gelatine.
Rate of bombardment of Vervunhive's energy shield, as well as an indication how much abuse (in a minute) it takes, especialyl given above the probable magnitude of the explosives used. Given the output estimates above, we can infer that the shield could absorb hundreds if not thousands of tons of TNT-equivalent munitions at a low end. (recall as well that this doesn't neccesarily mean "energy handling" per se - explosives are more complicated than an energy weapon.)

It should also be worth noting that Zoica does have access to nuclear weapons, but held off on using them on Vervunhive itself. This is most likely due to the Shield and Wall's sheer defensive ability. As you've shown, the Shield has the capacity to hold of multi-megaton yields constantly and without difficulty, and the Wall, despite not being as durable, survives some pretty intense bombardments as well.
If they can survive multiple hits with nukes, then why hit them with conventional artillery?
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Post by MKSheppard » 2008-09-13 06:22pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:A 'Russ tank (Vervun Primary) blows up and sends dangerous/lethal shrapnel out to 100 metres away (but no significant blast wave or thermal effects.), which means a blast wave of about 100 m in radius.
It doesn't take quite a lot of explosives to toss shrapnel to a lethal distance. There's a reason that the safe distance for a 100-250 pound bomb is quite large.
of course that depends alot on what the tank is equipped with - fuel and propellant won't be as violent exploding as a high explosive shell neccearily
Propellant explosions are very dangerous and highly energetic; they're what causes the initial explosion when a tank is hit, and contribute along with the diesel fuel to the burning pyre of a tank. High explosive rounds don't explode until a tank has been burning long enough for the explosives inside the shells stored in ammunition racks to reach ignition temperature.
What it hints more at is a "multi-role" nature, as in tanks also being able to double as artillery (and vice versa) - or assault guns, or whatnot.
And? What's so special about this? All US tanks up to the M1 Abrams had a elevation indicator inside their turrets; so they could be used as impromptu self-propelled artillery -- I have a picture somewhere of a M4 Sherman completely covered in a huge pile of expended shell casings in the role of an artillery piece.



Page 29
Three shells hit Hass West Fort in a series. The first ignited the battery munitions. The second vaporised Corporal Bendace and sixteen other troopers. The third, a crippling shockwave, splintered the tower top and caused a vast chunk of rampart to slump away in a torrent of stone, dust and fire.
A single shell vaporizes seventeen men.
So that's about equivalent to a heavy naval shell; probabably above ten inches in caliber. A twelve inch round landing in the middle of a platoon of infantry is not going to leave anything larger than a few bits and bobs of pieces like ears on a tree 50 feet away.
Multiple individuals incinerated by a rocket. Cremation level energies require multiple gigajoules minimum - hell, it could require gigajoules per person.
Or they could just be inciendary weapons; like Napalm -- or just the flash effect of a heavy shell -- there's a reason that crew on World War I and World War II ships had to wear heavy cotton anti-flash clothing. They still do to this day in the USN.
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Post by Thanatos » 2008-09-13 06:30pm

All US tanks up to the M1 Abrams had a elevation indicator inside their turrets
That's news to me.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-22 02:50pm

MKSheppard wrote: It doesn't take quite a lot of explosives to toss shrapnel to a lethal distance. There's a reason that the safe distance for a 100-250 pound bomb is quite large.
And how much does it take to shred a 60 tank INTO the aforementioned shrapnel? I daresay that's quite a bit more than a single grenade (and that isn't even factoring in a tank isn't designed for ideal fragmentation the way a grenade is.)
of course that depends alot on what the tank is equipped with - fuel and propellant won't be as violent exploding as a high explosive shell neccearily
Propellant explosions are very dangerous and highly energetic; they're what causes the initial explosion when a tank is hit, and contribute along with the diesel fuel to the burning pyre of a tank. High explosive rounds don't explode until a tank has been burning long enough for the explosives inside the shells stored in ammunition racks to reach ignition temperature. [/quote]

What part of ""fuel and propellant won't be as violent exploding as a high explosive shell?" A high explosive will detonate - neither fuel nor propellant (especially the latter) will detonate hence the "as violently" part.
And? What's so special about this? All US tanks up to the M1 Abrams had a elevation indicator inside their turrets; so they could be used as impromptu self-propelled artillery -- I have a picture somewhere of a M4 Sherman completely covered in a huge pile of expended shell casings in the role of an artillery piece.
There's a difference between "impromptu" artillery and a definite "multi role" usage. What are the parameters for this supposed "impromptu" indirect fire capacity? Range? maximum elevation? etc? From the incident, we see that the armour appears to be functioning as well as the artillery (or at least are functionally indistinguishable - similar range, broadly similar accuracy, etc.)
Or they could just be inciendary weapons; like Napalm -- or just the flash effect of a heavy shell -- there's a reason that crew on World War I and World War II ships had to wear heavy cotton anti-flash clothing. They still do to this day in the USN.
A rocket is later noted to specifically cremate a person, hence my usage of the term "cremate" (which is what incineration means, in fact.)

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-09-22 02:52pm

Ran across a few other quotes I missed the first time around, so this is more of an update than a continuation per se

Page 28
Captain Daur traversed his guns and looked for an enemy. The grasslands were blank. Long range weapons were reaching them, utterly beyond their power to resist.

If they even had the authority.

"Captain Daur to Marshal Gnide!" Give us permission to arm! Give the order! Marshal, I'm begging you!"[/quote]

The currently-available weapons on the walls of the hive are far outranged by the armour and artillery in the grasslands. Its worth noting that at this point they have not gotten their heavy guns working yet.

Page 30
Dusk came early at the end of the frist day.
This is largely to establish that all events up to page 30 have taken place over a single day, with night falling now.

Page 30
"He had forty-two tanks left out of the column of more than four hundred and fifty that had left Sondar Gate that afternoon"
Vervun tanks took from afternoon to night time to reach the Zoican army out in the grasslands and to battle.

Page 31
Unprotected, they [habs] were raked mercilessly by long-range artillery, siege mortars, and incendiary rockets.
The kinds of weaponry the Zoicans are employing in their long range bombardment.

PAge 31
The population of the southern outer habs was in the order of nine million, plus another six million workers who dwelt in the main hive but travelled out to work the industrial district and the mines.
At least fifteen million in the Hive.

Page 35-36
The tank roared and bounced over the trampled grass hillocks, heading nortth at full throttle, its turret reversed to spit shells into the firefields behind it, into the invisible enemy at its heels.

...

The night sky was ablaze. Scorching trails of rockets and shrieking shells tore overhead, heading for the hive.

...

They were facing an ochre wave out there on the grass-flats, a stupendous Zoica armoured front, pushing in through three salients.

...

Shells rained down amongst the retreating Vervun tanks. At least two blew out as munitions ignited, sending tank hulls end-over-end-in fireballs, spraying track segments out like shattered teeth.

..

Vervunhive was in sight now, the great luminous blister of green energy flickering on the skyline like a giant mushroom cloud, glowing in the night. Kowle grabbed his scope and saw the blackened, burning mass of the outer habs fast approaching. A persistent rain of explosives was stilld ropping into them.

A number of facts established here:

1.) Vervun tanks can fire on the move. The fact they are firing on an "invisible" enemy may suggest that they are over the horizon (a fact supportted by the fact the Zoicans are still not in visual range of the Hive, yet the returning Vervun tanks shortly are), but other reasons cannot be excluded. If the enemy is over the horizon, the range would be on the order of at least 7-8 km (given the approximate height of a Russ)

2.) Its night time.

3.) The Zoicans are still out in the grasslands, and are still bombarding the hive from out there.

4.) Vervunhive and its shield are just in sight shortly after they began fleeing the Zoicans. Given a height of at least a kilometre, if not several kilometers, its possible to establish the current distance of the Vervun tanks from the hive (and thus the rough distance they must cross.) Further, this gives us another indicator of the range of the Wall heavy guns and Zoican armour/artillery bombardment.

Page 36
He tried the vox again, but the enemy was jamming all bands.
Tank comms are jammed.

I dont have time now but I'll try to do calcs later.

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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-10-01 01:47pm

More calcy stuff and the last update before the Ghosts make their official appearance.


Page 46
The bombardment continued, both day and night, for two and a half weeks. By the close of the twelfth day day and night were barely distinguishable, so great was the atmospheric smoke-haze hanging around Vervunhive. The Shield held firm, but the southern outhabs and manufactories became a fire-blown wasteland, fifty kilometres square. Some shelling had also been deliberately ranged over the Shield, catastrophically wounding the unprotected northern districts and large sections of the Hass docklands.
- At this point the bombardment has been occuring for two and a half weeks straight. Some shelling deliberately ranged 'over' the Vervunhive Shield to damage/destroy the Northern districts and the Hass docks. Given the "thousands of Shells a minute' estimate from earlier, we can estimate they've endured bombardment of tens or hundreds of millions of shells all equal to hundreds if not thousands of kilos of TNT apiece.

It also gives us an indication of the military capabilities of small hives.

(I'm also going to take a note to point out here that I'm expressing this in TNT equivalent rather than raw energy because it IS probably closer to conventional explosives in effects than nuclear weapons in terms of yield and effects. The nuke part will be covered later tho.)

Page 47

- Marshal Croe here is described as 'well over two metres tall" (most people in Abnett novels seem to be over two metres tall, it seems.) z

Page 48
"I have seldom seen a military force of such scale. Eighty or ninety thousand armoured vehicles, thousands of gun batteries and an infantry force behind them of several million."

...

During the Trade War, ninety years before, Vervunhive had faced a Zoican army of 900,000 and barely survived.

...

"But I am sure, by disposition alone, that at least five million troops were embarked in file behind the armour advance. And those were the only ones I could see."

...

"Vervunhive supports over forty million inhabs and from that we raise half a million troops! Zoica is a third our size! How could they conceivably field five or more million troops?"
- Zoica is a third the size of Vervun hive (and was stated before to have raised 900,000 troops in the last war.) Vervunhive has 40 million "in-hab" civilians (as opposed to out-hab".) Note that fielding "five million or more" troops for Zoica was considered unbelievable. This is rather peculiar, since earlier its mentioend that Vervunhive had "forty billion"

There is also the eighty or ninety thousand armoured vehicles.

Assuming the size of the hive hasn't changed dramatically, Zoica (Being 1/3 the size of Vervunhive) would have 13-14 million "in-hab".. their PDF force would be 6-7% of the overall population. (Which tends to suggest Vervunhive's grreatly under-militarized.)

On the other hand, it seems that "5 or more million" is the upper limit for Zoica's PDF, so we can safely assume most Hive-baed PDFs are less than 1/3rd the population.


Page 48
Croe had requested orbital pictures prior ot the meeting, pictures he had hoped would confirm or deny these outlandish claims. But the smoke patterns from the continued bombardment were blanketing the continet and nothing was discernable.
And again, mention is made of orbital pictures (smoke was so thick though it was blanketing the enitre continent,however.)

Page 49
At first alarm, the rampart defenses had been manned and raised, but more potent heavy guns, dormant since hte Trade War, were still muzzled in deployment silos in the Curtain Wall itself.

..

The hive's main firepower would be ready in two more days and at last the city would have long range artillery to answer the bombardment.
- the city's wall heavy guns (and missiles) are indicated to have range similar to the Zoican artillery. Also note that these weren't active in the initial attack and required several weeks of preparation.


Page 49
"Ten regiments of auxiliaries are moving south to us from the Northern Foundary collectives as we speak. Vannick Hive has promised us nine regiments within a week."
These regiments presumably include armoured vehicles. Given that the NorthCol forces do indeed have armour later, its likely that Vannick Hive's forcees do as well.

Page 50

- Mention of "six Guard Infantry regiments" and three "armour groups" being deployed to assist Vervunhive. They are nine days away in another system.

Page 50
The Vervunhive wall Artillery began firing just before noon on the eigth day. The massive silos opened their ceramite shuters and volleyed shells back into the salt-grass hinterland where the enemy forcecs were massing. The salvos were answered with redoubled bombardment form the still-unseen foe.
Again mention of the hive's wall artillery weapons demonstrating similar ranges to their Zoican counterparts and indirect-fire capability.

Page 51
On the morning of the Eleventh day, troop convoys began to thread down the motor routes noth of the Hass. Twenty thousand men and nearly five thousand war machines sent out from the Norrthern Collectives...

....

Kicking dust, the troop carriers and tanks rumbled through the bombed outer habs and damaged manufactories, braving the bombardment that still fell across the river from far away.

- NortthCol reinforcements take 5 days to reach Vervunhive. Its worth noting here (as mentione before) the Northcol 10 regiments consist of both vehicles/tanks and troops. ITs likely that Vannick hive's forces likewise did.

Page 51
So far, nothing had been heard of the promised reinforcements from Vannick Hive, the great reinfery collective three thousand kilometers away to the east.
- Vannick hive never arrives, but is stated to be three thousand kilometers away. Given that it was mentioned they would arrive "within the week" they would require fewer than 7 days to arrive. Assuming they spent half a day driving and the other half resting, camping, maintenance or whatever, you could expect an average travel speed of 40 km/hr. Its unsure whether this would be on road or off road, but could be a mix of both. And it IS a lower limit.

This also gives us an idea of possible rate of advances in certain situations that PDFs (and thus the GuarD) could achieve in war, and an indicaton of a regiment's operational range. Its not specified whether or not this was done all in one go (without resupply vehicles or tankers, or whether support elements were included) but none were mentioned and given the regimental setup of most PDFs/Guard forces its eems unlikely.

Page 52-53
At Dawn on the fourteenth day, lights were seen in the upper atmosphere.
..

Flaring their braking jets, Imperial Guard dropships descended, diverted to the main lift-port at Kannak in the Norrthern Collective Hives. With the shield erected, Vervunhive's central landing field could accept no ships.

The Imperial Guard disembarked at Kannak and then marched south on the tail of the NorthCol forces.

..

The Royal Volpone 1st, 2nd, and 4th deployed south from Kannak Port swiftly, using the rail link to bring themselves deep into the hive.
...

The 5th and 7th rgiments of the Roane Deepers, under General Nash, arrived by rail later that afternoon...

...

The Tanith First-and-Only, arrived by road, almost unnoticed, two nights later.
The dropships deploying the regiments couldn't land through the shield, and the shield could'nt be lowered on any side to accept them (either its not sectional, which seems likely given how it deploys, or the Zoican bombardment was such that no facing was "safe" from attack.

It took most of the guard regiments less than a day to deploy by rail, but the Tanith took several days by truck.

Page 52-53

- the guard regiments listed as arriving are the "Royal Volpone 1st, 2nd, and 4th.", the 5th and 7th Regiments of the Roane Deepers, the Tanith first (naturally), and 3 Narmenian armoured regiments. The Narmenian armoured regiments, it is implied, took roughly a day (no more than two) to reach the hive. The Guard regiments had arrived in and deployed from the NorthCol Hives.

Note it took the ghosts at least 2-3 days to reach the hive in troop trucks. The Volpone and Roane regiments arrived by rail within the same day (afternoon) (IE by train.) The Norrthcol vehicles therefore were roughly 1/2 the speed of troop trucks, and 1/5 the speed of a train.

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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-10-08 01:13am

More from Necropolis. Here comes the Imperial Guard (well the rest of the Guard is already there, but here come the Ghosts!) And lots more calcy goodness.

Page 54
From the tiny runes glowing on the setting dial, Milo noticed it was fixed to heat-see.
Larkin's sniper scope seems to be a bit more complicated than just an electronic sight (such as mono-sights or infra-sights mentioned in earlier game fluff) in that it has multiple settings.

In "heat-see" it picks out the hive as red, the shield as yellow. Note there is an absence of any sighting beam like we saw in Ghostmaker (which furthers the notion of multiple settings)

Its also notable that here the settings seem to be manual, though in later novels Larkin's scope (and other snipers) seem to have some automatic elements to them.

Page 59
The Magnificat was in mid-stream when the eastern sky lit up brightly. There was a sucking shudder, like a wind-rush over the water. The easter horizon blazed with a midnight sun.

...

Gaunt raised a hand to shield his eyes from the glare as a heat-wash rolled down the river. He knew the blast-effects of a nuclear detonation when he saw it.
The nuclear destruction of the Northcol Hives. If we knew the size/yield of the explosion (or could guess at it) we might be able to estimate the distance of the Hive from Vervunhive. We dont have much to go on for yield (other than it didn't last a noticably long time), but given a hive of several ten+ kiloeters in diameter it probably would need to be at least in the double digit megaton range (possibly low gigaton, given comparable events and what we know of even small hives.)

Page 61
"Zoica has levelled it. We have no idea how. They got inside the Shield somehow and used a nuclear device-"
Confirmation of the use of nuclear weapons. Note that we don't know either way if these nukes were something Zoica has always possessed, or whether they might have been brought from off-planet by Chaos.

Its also interesting they had to sneak it in under the shield rather than bombard the shield directly, suggesting that the hive shields are capable of shrugging of nuclear detonations (at least one, possibly several.)

Page 63
Can there be anyn other explanation for a nuclear event?"

"Suicide," Grizmund said. "Overrun, overwhlemed, perhaps a last act of desperation in the face of a victorious foe. A detonation of hte hive's power plant."
- Its implied that the hive's power plant is nuclear, but that it could be deliberately detonated/self destructed in the fashion of a nuke. Being able to deliberately detonate the plant like a nuke would suggest it is NOT nuclear however, in which case the comparison may be construed as simply being "comparable" to a nuclear detonation.

In the latter case its probably a plasma reactor, as we know plasma reactors can go up like that (Titan reactors, as well as the fortress from 13th Legion)

Page 64
Verunhive can raise half a million from forty million population. Zoica can only be raising millions from a population a third the size.. if the entire population itself is being used.”
Once again "half a million from forty million" PDF/population ratio, and that raising "millions" from a mere 13-14 million is considered insane. Meaning that there is 1 PDF per 80 civilians, but much less than one in seven.

Page 67

- Corbec notes he has never seen a shield effect as big as Vervunhive's before.

- Corbec is also 25 centimeters taller than the VPHC commissar. Corbec's size was established in earlier novels as being "Taller than Gaunt" but not sure by how much. This means that the commissar is at least 2 metres or so tall, or nearly that height.

Page 75

- Heironymo Sondar reached an age of 120 years before he was assassinated, apparently not needing the nutrient tank Salvador Sondar did. And no indication he would die immediately. Juvenat tech at work again


Page 79 - suspensor chair

Page 82 -
Despite the shelling, they had also raised a three hundred metre bulwark of earth, filled an advance ditch with iron stakes and railing sections, and sandbagged three stubbers and two flamers into positions along the Highway.
Makeshift defensive position in the hive. We're not sure whether "three hundred metre" refers to width or height (presumably the former, though)

Page 84
"A wave of las-fire peppered the entire defencee line of the outhabs, like the flashes of a billion firecrackers. The sheer scale of the salvoes was bewildering. Nine of Fencer's troops died instantly. Three more, all workers, fled, utterly unprepared for the Fury of a land assault."

- the Zoicans advance on Fencer's position, and begin opening fire with lasguns, rockets, and grenades (presumably from launchers, given the range mentioned earlier.

Page 84
"He'd ordered them all to set weapons for single fire to preserve ammunition and power cells. Even the stubbers had been ordered to fire if they had a target. In response to the Zoican assault, their return seemed meagre and frail."
Multiple settings for weapons, both las and projectile.

Page 85
Fencer got up to the nest top and raised his lasgun. Five hundred metres ahead, through the smoke and the rubble, he saw the first shapes of the enemy, troopers in heavy, ochre-coloured battledress, advancing in steady ranks.

Fencer began firing. Below Kolea opened up too.
Fencer is a PDF officer, Kolea (at this point) is a civilian. They open fire on the Zoicans from at least 500 metres out. As noted before, they're firing on single shot to conserve ammo and "if they have a target", indicating they're not just "spraying randomly" - they are within ranged for aimed fire.

Page 85
Rockets flailed into the bulwark and blew a fifteen-metre section out.
rocket blows a 15 metre crater in the bulwark. We dont know if this is a man portable rocket or from a vehicle (we know the Zoicans have armour support here), but conservatism dictates the latter. If we assume the barrier to be somewhere between silicon and ice (the density of Earth can, depending on circumstances, be somewhat less than pure silicon but alot more then ice) the yield would be between .2 and .6 tons of TNT. This is, of course, a high explosive charge.

Page 85
A las-round from one of the dying Zoican assault troops impaled on the stakes took the back of his head off.
Las round seems to partly blow apart a Vervunhiver's head.

Page 85

- an "armoured vehicle" was taken out with armor piercing stub rounds. (though it doesnt say what kind of vehicle.)

Page 85
Calie kept firing, feeding her own gun until a tank round blew her, her stub gun and twenty metres of the defence bulwark into the sky.
Tank round blasts a twenty metre diameter section of the bulwark apart. Given that they're firing on personnel rather than a tank its probably a high explosive round rather than an anti-tank shell. Going by the similar assumptions for the rocket above (somewhere between ice and rock in density) the yield is going to be between .4 and 1.4 tons of TNT.

Like with the Basilisk in Storm of Iron, this implies that the explosives used in their shells is considerably better than modern - even assuming the actual yield were merely 1/10th or 1/20th what I estimated above, it would still require explosive severla times better than TNT (which is as good or better than what we've come up with.. the most powerful explosives I know of being 2-3x that of TNT.)

Page 86
A las-round punctured Captain Olin Fencer's body at the hip and exited through his opposite shoulder. As he fell, weeping, he clicked his lasgun to autofire and sprayed his massing killers with laser rounds.

His hand was still squeezing the trigger when the pack ran out.

By then, he was already dead.
The implication here is that he probably died in seconds, tops, and empties the rest of the pack in that time. We dont know how much power is left in the pack, but if he starrted out full and a 50 shot pack (fairly common), expended about 2/3 of his shots (20 shots or so remaining) and took 2-3 seconds to "die", the effective rate of fire would be around 400-600 Rpm - 2-3x higher what the Uplifting primer gave for lasgun ROF.

Incidentally, ,vaporizing/incinerating (something we know lasweapons will do along the path of the beam) a 2-3 cm path through the body from hip to shoulder diagnolly, ought to vaporize/incinerate between 1/3 of a kilogram to 2/3 of a kilo of flesh (ignoring bone and such), which should yield between 850 kilojoules and 1.83 MJ per shot at least (ignoring inefficiencies, cauterization, ,and overpenetration.)

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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-10-16 02:09am

Next update.. more fighting.. more calcs...

Page 87 - reference to the Curtain wall having three missile launchers. So they have missiles as well as artillery (and with range simialr to what the Zoican mobile stuff has.)

Page 88-89
"This is ground assault from closer range - armour moving through the outer habitations and facotries."

"Are you certain?" asked Gaunt.
"You can see the flashes of tank cannons as they fire. Four, five kilometres out, in the very skirts of the outer habs. Their weapons are on full elevation for maximum range, so the muzzle-flashes are high and exposed.
- Grizamund seems to suggest the rocket and mortar batteries are all mobile as well as the tanks and such. Note the tank range of 4-5 kilometers.. this might be a lower limit, given the low quality of the Zoican tanks.

Page 90
"If you watch the armour flashes as General Grizmund has suggested, ,they form a rough line, like a contour. Compare that to the fall of shells. The edge of the shortest falling shells - you can see that from the explosions and from the smoke fires - approximately matches that line, with a break of perhaps a kilometre and a half between armour and line of fire. That is the space we might expect the infantry, advancing before the armour, to occupy.

...

..that shows us a clear belt of infantrty advance. Even single line abreast, I'd say we were welcoming over half a million down there. Double the line, double the figure. Tripel it-"
There's a 1.5 km gap between the armour and the bombardment, giving us a rough idea of engagement ranges when they actually attack the wall.

Page 90
"At least a million," Said Mkoll suddenly.

..

"Behnd the imapcts, a higher note, like a creaking, like the wind."

..

"
Lasguns, sir. So many lasguns firing over each other that their individual sounds have become one shrieking note. You'd need a... a feth of alot of lasguns to kae that sound."
Small arms fire. This woudl also indirectly hint at the ranges above (one assumes they are engaging the enemy which is being subjected to artilelry barrage, and thus being roughly 1-1.5 km away or so)

Page 91

- Daur notes that the "fifth division of his Regiment" is guarding the spoil - twenty thousand men. At least 5 divisions, assuming they hav ethe same number, implies 100,000 men per regiment. This is of course PDF and not Guard, but still interesting to note regardless.

Page 94
"The remaining Zoican bastard switched to full auto and swung wild. His withering close-range shots punched right through a flak board wall partition and blew the guts and thighs out of Machinesmith Vidor, who had been waiting to spring out from behind it.
Full auto burst takes out the entire lower body of a human ("guts" and thighs") Not sure how many shots it would require (a few seconds) but arguably megajoule range from the sheer volume affected (20cm x 20cm x20 cm - at least 6-7 kg of flesh.. say maybe a couple kg more for the thighs..).. at least 2-3 MJ worth of damage by boiling alone (flesh to boiling piont, severe burning).. say 9-10 MJ for cauterization (300-400 degrees C) We know its at least two shots, possibly three.. possibly more than that, but no more than a few seconds worth - fewer than a dozen shots all told.


Page 101
Despite fierce pockets of guerilla resistance, the Zoican forces pushed up through the ruins in spaced phalanxes of infantry and columns of armour - thousands of them - grinding ever norht through the confusion.

The first of them were now just a kilometre from the Curtain Wall.
Note the range of the Zoicans from the wall. Shortly to become relevant.

Page 103
The gate itself, seventy metres wide and a hundred high, had been blockaded with wreckage, alot of it burned-out rolling stock from the railhead. But there were o grgeat blast doors to seal it like at the other main Wall gates.
- Veyveyr Gate, the railway south of Vervunhive, is stated to be seventy metres wide and a hundred high.

Page 103
Bulwar at least was a combat veteran who had seen action during the years of rebellion wars in the NorthCol colonies on Verghast's main satellite moon. He wasa thickset man who wore the same regular, evergreen flak armour and fatigues as his men, thoguh the braided cap and crackling power claw marked him out instnatly as a command officer.
Guard officer with apower claw.. a rare weapon, esp for PDF troops.

Its also worth noting they have Lunar colonies for individual hives.

Page 104

- The total numbers of troops are stated to be "nearly three quarters of a million". including the Guard. this means roughly 180,000-250,000 troops outside the hive. Minus NorthCol's 20,000 the Guard contributed 160,000 to 230,000 The Ghosts of course make up a minor fraction of this, and the armour regiments won't contribute mor than a few extra thousand. This means the bulk of the other troops are the Roane Deepers and the Volpone... averageing some 15,000-45,000 men. Odds are though, the Volpone regiments (as heavy infantry) make up the bulk of the troops

Page 105
On the twenty-ninth day, spotters on the Wall near Sondar Gate spotted a msall group of Zoican tanks moving along a transit track adjacent to the Southern Highway, two kilometres out. With hurried permission from House Command in the Main Spine, they addressed six missile batteris and a trio of earthshaker guns and opened fire.

..

The engagement lasted twelve minutes. No fire was returned form the enemy.
Earthshaker and missile enagement over 2 km.. note that this establsihes a rough range for the tanks again and is consistent with the earlier references on range and positioning.

Note also that the Wall guns are earthshaker cannon, so the aformentioned long ranges would logically applie to earthshaker guns of a similar type.

Page 106 -
Its herald was a simultaneous salvo from thousands of tanks and self-propelled guns prowling forward through the outer-hab wastes less than a kilometre from the Wall. The roar shook the hive and the explosive display lit the night sky. For the first time, the enemy was firing up at the Curtain Wall, point-blank in armour terms, hitting wall-top ramparts and fracturing them apart. Precision mortar bombardments were landing on the wall-top itself, finding the vulnerable slit between Wall and Shield. Other fericous rains of explosive force hammered at the gates or chipped and flaked ceramite armour off the Wall's face.

The defenders reeled, stunned. Hundreds were already dead or seriously injured and the ramparts were significantly damaged in dozens of places. Officers rallied the dazed soldiery and the reply began. With its rocket towers, heavy guns, support-weapon emplacements, mortars and the thousands of individual troopers on the ramparts, the reply was monumental. Once they began to fight, a gleeful fury seized the men of Vervunhive. To address the enemy at last. To fire in anger. It felt good after all the warning. It was absolving.

The Curtain Wall firepower decimated the Zoican forces now advancing towards the Wall-foot outside. Vervunhive laid down a killing field four hundred metres deep outside their wall and obliterated tanks and men as they churned forward. It was later estimated that 40-50,000 Zoican troops and upwards of 6,000 fighting vhiecles were lost to Vervunhive fire in the first hour of attack.
the Zoican assault begins "less than a kilometre" from the wall, including firing on troopers with lasguns and autoguns from that distance, and managed to lay down a killing field "four hundred metres deep.".. giving us a good idea of effective ranges (600 meters to a kilometer in this case, not including the height of the Wall added, which is 200 metres. Admittedly it wouldnt add alot, but it would add a little.)

Also, a kilometre is considered "point blank" in tank combat terms.

Page 107
"You could fire a lasgun on full auto from the wall-top" wrote General Xance of the NorthCol forces later, "and kill dozens, only to see the hole you'd made in their ranks close in the time it took to change power cells.
This implies that a lasgun will empty its power pack very rapidly.. seconds even.

Page 109 -
The flamers drenched the top of the Wall with liquid fire, ,swivelling to rake the defences back and forth. Forty Vervun Primary troopers and nine Ghosts were incinerated as they fled back from the engine.
heavy flamers (twin) on Zoican siege engines incinerate Forty VErvun Primary troops and nine Ghosts.. double digit Gigajoules total, but we can't establish rate due to lack of precise information (how long it took, how many flamers, how much fuel was expended.)

Page 110
Another reached the Curtain wall intact but positioned itself in front of an Earthshaker battery in the Wall side. The massive, long-range cannons blew it apart point-blank though the crews were fried by the flaming backwash fthat rushed into their silos.
More reference to Eartthshaker platforms in VErvunhive's defense.

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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Peptuck » 2008-10-16 03:06am

As an aside, all the defense towers at Vervunhive have their own void shield generators, according to The Guns of Tanith.
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Re:

Post by Ryan Thunder » 2008-10-21 07:45pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
MKSheppard wrote: It doesn't take quite a lot of explosives to toss shrapnel to a lethal distance. There's a reason that the safe distance for a 100-250 pound bomb is quite large.
And how much does it take to shred a 60 tank INTO the aforementioned shrapnel? I daresay that's quite a bit more than a single grenade (and that isn't even factoring in a tank isn't designed for ideal fragmentation the way a grenade is.)
Well, according to Military Analysis Network, around 30% of the energy released by the explosive detonation of a shell goes into shattering the shell casing and components, and imparting kinetic energy to the resulting fragments.

So, if we assume that its a Ryza-pattern Leman Russ, then it should weight 60-tons. We'll treat it like an explosive shell, for the sake of simplicity. A fragment of shrapnel is considered by the MAN to be hazardous if it has kinetic energy in excess of 79 Joules. We'll use that for a conservative estimate.

So, assuming that the entire mass of the vehicle has been accelerated to the point where it has an average kinetic energy of 79 J/kg (think that should get us what we're looking for), the explosive would have transferred a total of 4.74 MJ. If that's 30% of the explosion's energy, then we're looking at 15.8 MJ.

Seems a little low-end to me, but I'm not sure what sort of number it would be reasonable expect, either.
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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Ryan Thunder » 2008-10-21 07:47pm

Goddamn it. Hit post instead of preview. Sorry for the horrendous grammar.
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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Ryan Thunder » 2008-10-21 08:30pm

Oh, and that math above is also not accounting for the energy that went into shredding the tank itself in any way, shape, or form, so it's incredibly low-ended.

Lower limit, I guess. I can't think of any way it could be less than that number, anyways.
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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-10-22 12:47am

Your calc won't account for range, since shrapnel will lose energy as it passes through the atmosphere. Plus 79 J/kg is probably far too much mass. A modern US hand grenade masses about a pound and about half that will be the explosive itself. I imagine that 79 J is also per "fragment", which is going to be a tiny fraction of that mass (you'll need high velocity imparted to get any range with shrapnel, esp in the tens of meters range) And there's still also the inefficiencies

Its probably conservative by at least an order of magnitude.

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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-10-29 03:16am

Page 112

- Zoican "flat-crab" siege tanks, mentioned to be the size of "four or five" tanks together.

Page 112
Then it was the turn of the spiders, the largest and most fearsome of the Zoican siege weapons. A hundred metres from nose to tail and propelled by eight vast, clawed cartwheels set on cantilever arms extendign from the main bodies of their armoured structures, the spiders ground out of the smoke and rumbled towards the wall. Gun and rocket batteries on their backs blazed up at the defences of VErvunhive.
Generally speaking, being 100 metres long and wide enough to block the Vervunhive gates (later) suggests these things are almost certianly Titan grade constructs, and thus must mass manyy thousands of tons. ITs insane to consider what this suggests about Zoica's industrial capabilities.

Page 113
One was stopped by the VPHC Comissioner Vokane, who got his troops to roll munitions from the launcher dumps to the Wall head and tip them over onto the rising beast, charges set for short fuse. The spider was blown off the wall and fell backwards, crushing hundreds of Zoican troops under it. It lay on its back and burned. Vokane and fifty-seven of his men didn't live to cheer. The explosive backwash of the spider's death engulfed them and burned them to bone scraps.
This suggests again that the Imperium has possession of some some pretty insane explosives (incineration would require double digit GJs to do all that. That would almost be a side effect of a high explosive, and damn impressive for man-portable munitions. Hell, the explosive force to blast a Titan sized object off the wall is bound to be insane.)

PAge 113
It [a spider] settled sideways on its exploded wheels, half-blocking the entrance. [to Verveyr Gate].

The remaining spider clawed its way over the Curtain Wall west of Hass West Fort. General Grizmund was waiting for it. As it scattered and burned the wall defenders to the left and right, Grizmund's Narmenian tanks, assembled in the open placecs of the House Anko chem works, elevated and fired, ,blasting the vast thing backwards off the Curtain Wall. The force of the salvo took part of the inner wall down too, but it was considered worthwhile. The spider was destroyed.
As I noted before, the Spiders must be quite large (ttian grade) given the dimensions (and the bility to "half block" the gate (30-40 meters or so)./ Even assuming a height of only 5 metres (not much higher than a Russ, in other wordS) and a density of water and that they are 50% empty space on top fo that, each spider would mass 7,500 tons.

We know later that there are about 100-200 Narmenian tanks, which is roughly consistent with what a Tank regiment in the Guard should compose of. We dont know if all fo the m fired on the Spider, but conservatively ssume they did.

ASsuming all 200 tanks hit, ignoring the damage to the wall done.. and assuming the Spider was only knocked off at a mere .5 to 1 m/s (a rather slow speed ofr osmething that large.. whereas the effect is implied to blast the thing physically off, rather than tipping it off, and thus implying a greater velocity) this yields an output of around 18,000 to 38,000 kg*m/s worth of momentum impartted per tank. This is many times the momentum of a modern tank gun using a saboted round, of course (5-7 kg penetrator at around 1700 m/s, IIRC) and thus this is an indciator of just how powerufl Imperial Guard tnak guns are in comparison to modern tanks (Bearing in mind the inefficiencies, the situation, and the fact I am drastically under-representing these calcs)

Page 120
His hold was an expert move, just a millimetre or two of pressure away from clamping the cartoid arteries, just a centimetre away from dislocating the neck. Only a brilliant medic or an Imperial assassin could be that precise.
Dorden disables an attacker, it appears that Imperial assassins (supposedly) would have similar knowledge to a Guard medical doctor.

page 122
"I.. I was wonderign why they had gunshot wounds?"

..

"small calibre, maybe a needle gun. Easy to mistake it for shrapnel wounding."

"It says 'glass lacerations' here.

..

"I know a needle-gun wound when I see it. And I'm seeing over a dozen shared between the two of them. They wer shot at close range. I checked the records. Twelve others were brought in from the same site with identical wounds. But they were all dead on arrival."
Needle guns are "small calibre" bullets, but they can be mistkane for "Shrpanel" wounding, which tells us something about their damage profile.

Page 126-127

: House Chass is known for producing Servitors, cogitators and its mechanical development (working machines.) His hobby seems to be maintaining his "cybernetic garden" - mechanical vegetation that seems to mimic living plants (and that Chass allows to grow freely.) This carries interesting implications for Imperium computers and machines (not exactly AI, but not unintelligent or unsophisticated either, and fairly adaptable.)

Page 131

- visibility is stated to be "a few hundred metres" in the rain.

Page 132

- the Ghosts are dug in close to Verveyr Gate, over by the engine sheds. Given the above, that probably gives us an upper limit on the engagement to come.

Page 133
The "thing" he referred to was the gigantic wreck of the spider siege engine which the NorthCol batteries had brought down during the First Storm three days before. Its massive bulk, slumped across the gatemouth barricades, half blocked the entrance and had proved impossible to shift, ,despite the efforts of pioneer teams and sappers with dozers and heavy liftsers
.
- again it is mentioned that the spider-machine that attacked Verveyr gate "half blocked" the entrance. It also proved impossible to shift despie acceess to dozers and heavy lifters. Enemy infantry, though, could worm around the bulk, ,though.

Page 133
He had eleven heavy weapon teams tied in here at intervals behind flakboards and bagging. Six heavy stubbers on tripod mounts, two autoguns on bipods with ammof eeders sprawled on their bellies next to the gunners, and three missile launchers.
Page 132 mentione sthat Corbec had around 200 ghosts, so we're probably talking at leat a company or so,a nd the above represents the numbers and distribution of heavy weapons (not including special weapons) that means slightly more than 1 heavy weapons team per squad.


Page 134

- Corbec notes that the gatehouse (which admittedly is damaged badly at this point) is "a hundred metres up." This is interesting insofar as it impacts earlier height estimates for the Wall (and the effects on artillery bombardment.

Page 134
- multiple, "fifty tonne" pieces of "rolling stock" rail forming a barricade of the Verveyr gate, are pulverized and turned into "whit hot' shrapnel by the initial barrages. (no idea of the weapons involved though)

Page 135

- in less than 10 minutes, flat crabs and other heavy artillery siege-crackers brought down the gate barricade and destroyed the Spider corpse blocking the gate.

The Flat-crab could also crush a chimaera under its tracks.

Page 136

- The Ghosts begin opening fire as Zoican troops starrt pouring through the hole that the flat-crabs opened in the gate. It seems that most did not exit the gate yet, since Milo only sees a few ochre shapes emerging from the gate mouth, at least initilaly. (howver, on the next page, someone DOES throw a grenade, so the range might not be as great by this point, and only the remainign troops were pouring out of the gate mouth.)

page 137
A las-round entered his skull through his nose-bone, blowing out the back of his head.
zoican las-round , blowing out (part?) of a Ghost's head.

Page 137-138

- a trooper (ghost?) is cut in two by Zoican fire. Not sure if its single trooper or multiple

PAge 139

- a VErvun Primary officer carrying 3 satchels of mines and grenades (light enough that he can run with it) is killed, but the explosives go off under the tank, and flip the flat-crab up and over onto its rear end. An armour anti-tank round sets off the crab's magazine and the resulting explosion vaporises the super tank. Flat Crabs would arguably be superheavies (300~ tons) meaning that severla terajoules would be needed to vaporize, assuming iron composition.

Page 139
He had sixteen men with him, including Larkin and Trooper Genx, who carried a bipod autocannon.

..

Genx opened fire and his heavy cannon made a distinctive "whuk-whuk-whuk" in the closed space.
Man portable autocannon, not sure if this is a squad weapon or a heavy weapon or what.

Page 139
Fire walloped back at them and Corbec marvelled at the way the las-rounds kissed and followed the stone walls. Trooper Fanck dropped, his chest gone. Trooper Manik was hit in the groin and his screams echoed around them.
It could imply bolter rounds, but the incident seems to be describing lasfire, suggesting that Fanck had most of his chest blasted out by a las-bolt. Assuming roughly a 15 cm wide, 10 cm deep hole (which could be "most of the chest" we could assume 3-5 kg at least.... which would translate (roughly) to 3-5 MJ assuming cauterization....no idea of a single shot or multiple shots.

Page 139
An enemy round took off his and at the wrist and Corbec scooped up the autocannon and fired it himself. Genx, his stump instantly cauterised by hte las-fire, got up without comment and began to feed his colonel's weapon.
the heavy weapons trooper has his wrist severed by las fire. Assuming a 10 cm section affected (diameter and lenth) you could assume about .6 kg affected.. we could figure at least 500-600 kilojoules for the las round.

Page 140
Larkin took his targets as they came, blowing off heads or blowing out chests with the powerful kick of his sniper gun. The las-fire of the normal weapons was superhot but lacked stopping power. Larkin blanched as men beside him hit enemy troops who kept going despite precise hits which had passed through them cleanly. Only Larkin's sniper gun and Corbec's autocannon were actually dropping the foe first time so they wouldn't get up again.
Effects and differences between LArkin's long-las with hotshots and regular las weapons. Again blasting apart heads or chests would e roughly the same mass (4-5 kg or so) and would be single digit MJ (As mentione dbefore) but that's a lower limit and probably single shot (this would mean Fanck, kiled earlier, either was by a bolt round or took multiple hits)

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Teleros
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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Teleros » 2008-10-29 09:23am

The Flat-crab could also crush a chimaera under its tracks.
Do we have any more information for this? Given what the Imperium has in terms of materials, my gut feeling is that it'd take more than something massing more than a few Leman Russes (or whatever) to crush...

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Lancer
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Re: Gaunts Ghosts 3 - Necropolis Analysis & Discussion threa

Post by Lancer » 2008-10-29 10:56am

Teleros wrote:
The Flat-crab could also crush a chimaera under its tracks.
Do we have any more information for this? Given what the Imperium has in terms of materials, my gut feeling is that it'd take more than something massing more than a few Leman Russes (or whatever) to crush...
We are talking about something that's very easily a superheavy vehicle on the scale of a Capitol Imperialis or Leviathan, and the Chimera isn't particularly heavily armored on its topside.

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