Tau and Comandeered Imperial Warships

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Tau and Comandeered Imperial Warships

Post by Zor » 2008-08-28 11:54pm

A fairly simple question.

The Tau Empire has engaged in various naval conflicts with the Imperial Navy and considering the amount of boarding that happens in WH40k i figure that at least a few may have been captured, especially during the Damocles Crusade.

Now here is the Question, has there ever been any mentioned of the Kor'vattra fielding former Imperial Warships to serve the Greater Good, especially ones upgraded with Tau Weaponry?

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Post by Stormbringer » 2008-08-29 12:29am

I can't be entirely certain but I highly doubt the Tau captured many Imperial ships period.

The Tau simply don't have the outsize crews that the Imperium does. They're pretty heavily automated compared to Imperial model ships. Boarding and capturing a vessel is a lot less common a tactic for that reason and some others relating to Tau ship design.

On top of that is of course the fact that the Tau tech advantage is going to count for a lot less in such a close action. So they're a lot less likely to succeed if they try it.

So in short, there doesn't seem to be any real likelihood of seeing Tau fielding Imperial warships.
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Re: Tau and Comandeered Imperial Warships

Post by Peptuck » 2008-08-29 01:36am

Zor wrote:A fairly simple question.

The Tau Empire has engaged in various naval conflicts with the Imperial Navy and considering the amount of boarding that happens in WH40k i figure that at least a few may have been captured, especially during the Damocles Crusade.

Now here is the Question, has there ever been any mentioned of the Kor'vattra fielding former Imperial Warships to serve the Greater Good, especially ones upgraded with Tau Weaponry?

Zor
Nope.

Its worth noting that the Tau are not that good at boarding operations; in Battlefleet Gothic, they get a penalty to boarding attacks, both on offense and defense.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-08-29 01:47am

Ghetto edit: Batlefleet Gothic does, however, mention an Imperial warship whose crew defected to the Tau. It doesn't mention what happened to the crew and ship afterward, but it does show them mutinying and joining with the Tau while their captain is meeting with an Etheral.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-29 02:20am

Probably nothing more than local defense fleet. I don't see any reason why an Imperial Navy ship couldn't, though it woudl be hard. The Imperium tends to put an awful lot of safeguards in place to prevent mutinies, and there's also the fact that divergent organizations exist (what the fuck will the Mutineers do if the AdMech don't play ball? I doubt the Coggies want to go over to the Tau.)

Also, while hte Tau do have some technical advantages over the Imperium (its not uniform though, the Imperium has advantages too) I generally believe the Imperium (As yet) still have superior warsships (not just bigger ones.)

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-08-29 03:20am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Probably nothing more than local defense fleet. I don't see any reason why an Imperial Navy ship couldn't, though it woudl be hard. The Imperium tends to put an awful lot of safeguards in place to prevent mutinies,
The scene in question specfically says that it was an Imperial Navy ship. Apparently, they had been in a battle with the Tau, and a boarding action is implied to have taken place where a number of sailors were taken prisoner by the Tau - despite the Tau's relative weakness in boaridng actions.
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Post by loomer » 2008-08-29 04:16am

Connor MacLeod wrote: (what the fuck will the Mutineers do if the AdMech don't play ball? I doubt the Coggies want to go over to the Tau.)
Are you kidding? The coggies would probably love being able to have free reign with their science, and to be able to dissect Xenos tech without an inquisitor incinerating them.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-08-29 05:50am

loomer wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: (what the fuck will the Mutineers do if the AdMech don't play ball? I doubt the Coggies want to go over to the Tau.)
Are you kidding? The coggies would probably love being able to have free reign with their science, and to be able to dissect Xenos tech without an inquisitor incinerating them.
The vast majority of the AdMech are firm believers in their own 'religion' for lack of a better word. They are NOT all brutally suppressed scientsits just waiting for a chance to leap back to the Scientific Method or play with Xenos tech.

Or for that matter, properly equipped mentally to be able to DEAL with Xenos tech. I recall all those AdMech cogboys in 'Caves of Ice' who walked down to the Necron tomb. They all apparently started to chant and do their usual thing to glorify the mighty machines...and the Necron guardians of course casually leveled their Gauss Flayers and opened fire as the Flayed Ones stomped forward...

There are SOME exceptions to this, but its generally only the most senior ranks, not people you would expect to see on an Imperium warship. THEY are more likely then not to want to protect the Machine Spirit of the ship from the foul Xenos heresy.

Hell, I can just see the Cogboys, when an Earth Cast tech walks over to a console and plugs in a removable HDD to download data without lighting an incense stick, drawing their laspistols...
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-08-29 08:49am

Chris OFarrell wrote:Or for that matter, properly equipped mentally to be able to DEAL with Xenos tech. I recall all those AdMech cogboys in 'Caves of Ice' who walked down to the Necron tomb. They all apparently started to chant and do their usual thing to glorify the mighty machines...and the Necron guardians of course casually leveled their Gauss Flayers and opened fire as the Flayed Ones stomped forward...

Well, Necron-tech is WAY more advanced than Tau tech. Tau tech would be a mild curiosity for the Cogboys, but the Necron stuff is, like, techno-Lovecraftian shit in all its paleo-techno-cyclopean awe. I really can't blame the AdMech for going gaga over the Necron stuff, cause the Necrons are bloody unholy machines.

Personally, I think the AdMech can match the Tau with their secret technologies. I mean, aren't their private armies considerably more advanced than the bog standard Imperial stuff?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-08-29 01:56pm

Intelligent, independent machines are vilest heresy according to the Adeptus Mechanicus and while a lot of that is purely superstition, there actually are good reasons for that (warp possession, Dark Age of Technology rebellions). Furthermore, the Adeptus Mechanicus involved in maintaining the starship will be devoted to its machine spirit. The idea of betraying the machine spirit and delivering it into the hands of xenos-heretic technosorcerers will be anathema to them.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2008-08-29 07:22pm

I can't imagine any Imperial warship captured actually being deployed unless there was some sort of crisis.

Its much more likely that it'd get towed off to an earth caste shipyard and ripped apart for all its cool stuff.
Personally, I think the AdMech can match the Tau with their secret technologies. I mean, aren't their private armies considerably more advanced than the bog standard Imperial stuff?
Absolutely, high end Imperial technology is still superior to anything the Tau produce.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-08-29 07:31pm

white_rabbit wrote:
Personally, I think the AdMech can match the Tau with their secret technologies. I mean, aren't their private armies considerably more advanced than the bog standard Imperial stuff?
Absolutely, high end Imperial technology is still superior to anything the Tau produce.
True enough. Its a common misconception among the fandom that the Tau beat out the Imperium in all regards, when they just beat out the bog-standard Imperial Guard gear, and even then the Guard carry superior tech in some regards. A Leman Russ is a decent match against a Hammerhead, even if the Hammerhead has ZOMG HOVERZ!!1
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-08-29 07:51pm

It's been said before, but it's worth saying again. Tau ships blow. Their escorts don't have their own FTL and their battleship is a great big carrier with glass for shields and light cruiser firepower that will get brutally raped to death by an Imperial battlecruiser or grand cruiser, let alone a true battleship or battlebarge.

Tau tech looks good because they're all in a comparatively tiny star cluster and equipped with the best their civilization can produce with no worries about their supply lines. The IG is spread throughout the galaxy, is often far removed the developed worlds that manufacture its gear, and are organized very much along the lines of being able to fight and win a protracted struggle with limited resupply. The Tau trade territory for time and maneuvering room. The IG can recharge its lasweapons by plugging them into their vehicles or throwing them into a campfire. What happens to the Tau when they run out of rail gun ammo, smart missiles, or their drone supply runs low because their rapid war of maneuver and giving ground has separated them from their supply lines? They're fucked.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2008-08-29 08:18pm

Their escorts don't have their own FTL
Which on reflection, is a little weird given that Mantas have one capable of jumping several light years.

I put that down to Forgeworld having a tremendous and irritating chubby for the Tau, and just plain ignoring any logic when it comes to them. hence the stealth carriers infiltrating Tau troops into an Imperial Navy training world

:roll:
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Post by Black Admiral » 2008-08-29 08:22pm

white_rabbit wrote:I put that down to Forgeworld having a tremendous and irritating chubby for the Tau, and just plain ignoring any logic when it comes to them. hence the stealth carriers infiltrating Tau troops into an Imperial Navy training world

:roll:
Where the hell did this happen? Even by the standards of the more absurdist Tau-wank that's silly.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2008-08-29 08:27pm

Black Admiral wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:I put that down to Forgeworld having a tremendous and irritating chubby for the Tau, and just plain ignoring any logic when it comes to them. hence the stealth carriers infiltrating Tau troops into an Imperial Navy training world

:roll:
Where the hell did this happen? Even by the standards of the more absurdist Tau-wank that's silly.
Thats the basis for the Aeronautica Imperialis campaign, in a nutshell.

And yes, the Tau win.
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Post by Slacker » 2008-08-30 02:37am

I'd kill for a decent Tau capital ship in Gothic. I have an entire fleet and have yet to win a game with them. They've been chucked to the back of the gaming closet and the sweet, delicious Imperial cruisers have come out.

I'm under the impression the ship that defected was fairly large, though.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-08-30 02:57am

white_rabbit wrote:
Black Admiral wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:I put that down to Forgeworld having a tremendous and irritating chubby for the Tau, and just plain ignoring any logic when it comes to them. hence the stealth carriers infiltrating Tau troops into an Imperial Navy training world

:roll:
Where the hell did this happen? Even by the standards of the more absurdist Tau-wank that's silly.
Thats the basis for the Aeronautica Imperialis campaign, in a nutshell.

And yes, the Tau win.
Fucking Tau. They're eclipsing the Necrons as the Mary Sue species in 40k. I mean, shit, they're a goddamn single star cluster that's barely a footnote compared with every single other power in the galaxy, and their tech is on the same level as the Imperium's. I still don't understand why they matter enough to even be mentioned as one of the players in the 40k setting.
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-08-30 05:46am

Chris OFarrell wrote:The vast majority of the AdMech are firm believers in their own 'religion' for lack of a better word. They are NOT all brutally suppressed scientsits just waiting for a chance to leap back to the Scientific Method or play with Xenos tech.
It is a misnomer to believe that the Adeptus Mechanicus are without science. Just because they are religiously devout and somewhat terrified of progress does not mean they are without progress, or without the scientific method. On one hand, it took them almost a century to accept the Space Wolve's modification of the Predator, yet at the same time, they had no problems with adapting Arkhan Land's weapons designs (and Land was considered extremely weird even by Coggie standards).

They are conservative and, by our standards, extremely weird, but they are more than capable of scientific investigation, and in fact they do it all the time. They investigate technology, make mathematical inferences based upon testing or obersvation and so on. The entire basis of their religion is called the Quest for Knowledge, and actively requires an Adept to explore, unearth and investigate science and technology. Just because they have sacred ungents, mystical runes and rote memorised methods of placating the Machine Spirit when it's angry doesn't necessarily make them stupid; those are methods of maintence, which doesn't exactly require innovation (how much of it is actually necessary and how much is totally superfluous is difficult to judge). We know they've tried to fathom out the workings of Necron technology through observation, we know they have a massive curiousity when it comes to the biology of aliens, we know that they have entire fleets who exist purely for the purpose of seeking out and capturing ancient or alien technology.

You are correct however in the fact that no Adept is likely to help an alien pull apart their sacred and ancient charge. The Chief Enginseer of the vessel is likely going to end up with his resplendant robes of sillicon coated in Tau blood before they finally kill him and his subordinates.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-08-30 05:57am

Oh, since there are unholy technologies like man-eating tanks that shoot demons out of its cannons, there AdMech's religious beliefs probably have sound basis.

Does anyone mock Chaos cultists for worshipping Blood Gods when said cultists have transmogrified into paleodeformagrotesquetitudes with cloven hooves, bat wings, and the capacity to breathe unholy fire?

How can anyone say that the Emperor is not mighty, when we've got lucky bastards like Ciaphas Cain who inadvertently became regarded as a prophet by Space Mohammedians after he killed one of those said deformagrotesquetitudes?

(To be fair, it was a bunch of guys armed with laser cannons that killed the deformagrotesquetitude, but hey! Frak this!)
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Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-08-30 06:05am

The simple fact of the matter is that regarding Imperial technology with some form of superstition is probably not sound in 100% of cases, but in other cases it is perfectly reasonable. A lasgun doesn't have an actual 'Machien Spirit', but a Land Raider does, and it is actually capable of getting angry, and thusly performing spectacles of asskickery on its own. Titans are even more 'alive' than that, to the point where they practically develop their own personalities, after a fashion.

And just to expand for a moment here on something which Shroomy has mentioned, technology can actually be possessed and subsequently corrupted by daemonic influences. Obviously the most glaring examples are those which are owned by Chaos, but I'm not about to stop a Coggie from consecrating my tank's engine when there is an actual possibility, extremely remote though it is, of that engine suddenly sprouting tentacles so it can feed the crew into the fanged maw of its fuel tank.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-08-30 06:23am

Speaking of Titans, Inquisitor Eisenhorn actually thought it was plausible to defeat one of the giant warmachines by destroying its machine spirit with an anti-psyker. It didn't work, as the Titan's soul was too powerful, and the anti-psyker was reduced to a comatose wreck.

Oh, and sanctified bullets do kill demons. I mean, fuck it, they were able to kick a daemonhost's ass by inscribing runes into shotgun buckshot! (Admittedly, this falls into the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiarchy rather than the AdMech - but still!)

And that daemonhost was capable of destroying the aforementioned warmachines! So, yeah, sanctified shotgun slugs (and Kasrkin) for the win!

This is a universe in which faster-than-light travel carries the risk of eternal damnation at the hands of unimaginable horrors, Emperor's sake. The only thing stopping demons from tearing peoples' soul apart in warp travel, incidentally, happens to be the knick knacks and gizmos of the AdMech.

If anything, the Tau are the ones who are shitheads for being utterly clueless and ignorant about the true mysteries of the universe.

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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-08-30 07:02am

Ford Prefect wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote:The vast majority of the AdMech are firm believers in their own 'religion' for lack of a better word. They are NOT all brutally suppressed scientsits just waiting for a chance to leap back to the Scientific Method or play with Xenos tech.
It is a misnomer to believe that the Adeptus Mechanicus are without science. Just because they are religiously devout and somewhat terrified of progress does not mean they are without progress, or without the scientific method. On one hand, it took them almost a century to accept the Space Wolve's modification of the Predator, yet at the same time, they had no problems with adapting Arkhan Land's weapons designs (and Land was considered extremely weird even by Coggie standards).
I never said they were WITHOUT science, just that the scientific method is far more absent at the lower levels where the members of the AdaptMech are taught by route THIS IS HOW IT IS. Light the inscence stick, pray to the machine spirit, push this button, incant the following thing and you can then activate the fire supression system to put out your clothes on fire.

Now when you start to reach HIGHER levels in the Adeptus Mechanicus, you increasingly start to see people who ARE willing to push aside this to greater degrees, actually showing some sense of the scientific method, investigating, performing analysis and improving and so on.

But THAT is at the higher levels, at least at the level of Magos or so. The VAST majority of Tech Preists and so on are dogmatically trained in a very rigid and structured way.

I'm not saying they DON'T at all look to the scientific method, just that its only a very small number of people in comparision to the total size of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-08-30 07:06am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Speaking of Titans, Inquisitor Eisenhorn actually thought it was plausible to defeat one of the giant warmachines by destroying its machine spirit with an anti-psyker. It didn't work, as the Titan's soul was too powerful, and the anti-psyker was reduced to a comatose wreck.
Actually, I think the Titan was REALLY possessed by Chaos, all Chaos Titans when corrupted generally have a Daemon in the drivers seat. Hence why Eisenhorn was using an untouchable to try and kill it. Its just that the Daemon was too powerful and it blasted her to hell.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-08-30 08:04am

The Titan was in the possession of some cultist shmuck, but I don't think it had been corrupted to some great extent. It was still in the process of being refurbished and stuff, and I don't think the text mentioned perversions or anything.

Eisenhorn's rationale to do that anti-psyker trick was not because of any daemonic possession, but because he knew that the Titans had their own rudimentary 'souls' or 'minds'.

I think. I can go re-read it, if you want me to, to make sure.
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