40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

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Connor MacLeod
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40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-08-26 02:32am

This one will probably end up being bigge,r cuz I have alot more 1st/2nd edition stuff and back then the fluff was much more prevalent.

To kick it off.. just a few sourecs from the Rogute Trader books.

Page 185
Ork space comprises a large compact area to the west of the galactic pole. In all it probably numbers as many as ten thousand habitable solar systems

Its doubful that the Orks really only encompass 10,000 systems anymore, t hey're supposed to be alot bigger/dangerous than that, and they're all over the system. But its a fun glimpse back as a lower limit. One interpreation is that its a n upperl imit on teh size of a practical Ork Empire.


(Rogue Trader: Various pages 277-283
Flak armour -
Flak armour combines energy-absorbent material with pneumatic padding anda good layer of impact-reactive plastic (a material which is normally soft and pliable but which goes rock hard if sturck by a high impact blow.) Orks can make this stuff themselves, but mostly they steal it from humans and modify it to fit.
As I mentioend in the Munitorum manual, this seems to be a very early reference to flak armour as being more protective./sophisticated than later incarnations (many of these features transferring to mesh armour.) Nonetheless, ,we can conclude that since flak can vary in quality and form, this probably does constitute a valid form (and that Cadians employ it.)

Oddly though, this is flak the orks are wearing. I imagine there are cases where Orks still use flak (just like they can use bolters) but its no longe rquite as uniform.
Helmet - the [Space]Marine helmet is part of his powered suit, and incorporates the following items. Auto-senses are special sensors that bypass the normal senses, relaying information directly to the brain. This makes it impossible to blind, deafen or otherwise damage the wearer's own senses. A Communicator allows Marines to talk to each other at all times. It has a range of 50 miles and can also be used to try and contact other communicators. Respirators are built directly into the helmet, permitting the wearer to breathe good clean air, irrespective of local conditions.
Description and features of Space Marine helmets. Of particular note is the communicator, which has a range of around 80 kilometers.
Plasma pistol[/i]. This is a very powerful weapon indeed - it fires a ball of super-heated plasma (ionised matter at incredible temperature - the stuff of which stars are composed.) Its range is not very great, and it is difficult to use except at close range, but most targets are instantly vapourised!


The only calcable "non-novel" example I have ever come across for plasma weapons (or at least an easily calcable one.) It is not sure what "most tagets" comprises, but we can take it to mean human sized at least, which indicates that a humanoid target hit by a plasma pistol would be vaporised. This can be taken to mean (an dreinforce) the "hundreds of megajoules per shot" estimates from other examples, though of course the exact output of a plasma weapon will depend on its setting. Note that vaporizing an ork (As would happen here, as its Space Marine vs Orks) would require at least svevral times the energy needed to vaporize a human (very high triple digit MJ to low single, perhaps double digit GJ, depending upon ork size)

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Ford Prefect » 2008-08-26 03:09am

You are just a boundless, endless source of analysis threads, Connor. :D
Connor MacLeod wrote: Ork space comprises a large compact area to the west of the galactic pole. In all it probably numbers as many as ten thousand habitable solar systems
Have you ever seen the fairly recent map which indicates Ork population density across the galaxy? I'll have to dig out at some point and do a little maths to actually total out how many planets they inhabit. The density can get as high as a hundred worlds per lightyear, and the entire galaxy is at least stained a little green.
The only calcable "non-novel" example I have ever come across for plasma weapons (or at least an easily calcable one.) It is not sure what "most tagets" comprises, but we can take it to mean human sized at least, which indicates that a humanoid target hit by a plasma pistol would be vaporised. This can be taken to mean (an dreinforce) the "hundreds of megajoules per shot" estimates from other examples, though of course the exact output of a plasma weapon will depend on its setting. Note that vaporizing an ork (As would happen here, as its Space Marine vs Orks) would require at least svevral times the energy needed to vaporize a human (very high triple digit MJ to low single, perhaps double digit GJ, depending upon ork size)
It is probably unfortunate that plasma weapons are more effective at relatively short range, because I wouldn't want to be standing too close to whatever it was I was shooting. :lol:
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Teleros » 2008-08-30 06:13pm

Ford Prefect wrote:Have you ever seen the fairly recent map which indicates Ork population density across the galaxy? I'll have to dig out at some point and do a little maths to actually total out how many planets they inhabit. The density can get as high as a hundred worlds per lightyear, and the entire galaxy is at least stained a little green.
IIRC the new rulebook has just such a map of the galaxy. No scanner around here though so I can't post it :( .

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-13 01:58am

Yes.. in keeping with the Ork themeed analysis on the fluff side, I've delved into 1st edition ork stuff too. Presenting.. WAAAGH! the Orks!

Page 7
THe epidermal algae endows the surface of the Orks' skin with a natural polymer (plastic). This gives the skin a strong, waxy texture similar to the rubbery leaves on some tropical plants, and endoews it with great properties of strength and resilience. As the Ork grows older, the algae grows thicker and rougher, giving older Orks their characteristic scabby and gnarled appearance.

Ork blood is part of their digestive system. It flows around the body beneath the skin, which is too thick to reflect the colour beneath. Most Orks have two hearts, though one of them doubles as a digestive organ. Food is digested and broken down by a series of outer stomachs (which is why Orks can eat so many apparently indedibel things) Nutrients pass into the blood in the heart-stomach. The thickness and colour of the blood constnatly varies according to what and when the Ork last ate, changing from black, to purple, and dark red.
Previously its been described that Orks as having leathery skin rather than "plastic" or leathery, but this may suggest one reason why orks are supposed to be so durable (a sort of natural armor)

As for the digestive system setup.. dunno how accurate that is. But given how highly psychic orks are, it doesnt really matter cuz you can point and say "it iz majikal". Or perhaps it has some basis in the fact we know they're an engineered species - perhaps Orks aren't entirely organic (they merely seem to be. Maybe their blood is some nanowank analogue.)

Page 6
Ork civilisation is now faced with a major problem: the maintenance of technology. The Orks have found the obvious solution in their use of slaves. Apart from the Mekboyz, who are Orks with a residual, innate talent for technology, orks rely on enslaved Humans and other aliens in their workshops and factories. More importantly, they rely on tribute exacted from vassal alien communities. This tribute is paid in the form of armaments and technology. Sometimes whole communities and planets are occupied by Ork warriors, enslaved, and put to work making armaments.

AFter several viscious and destructive wars, many alien communities willingly manufacture equipment for the Orks as bribes to keep them away, or as tribute to provide protection.
In addition to "looting" and salvaging, Orks rely on conquered populations/slaves for construction and manufacturing purposes (as tribute.), though this either is done under the direction of Meks or in parallel (the meks provide more specialist designs while the Slaves provide the basics.)

Also, while its possible to Bribe orks, its never a permanant solution, which is what makes such an option dangerous - you do it once you'll always do it (and probably just arm them to conquer you anyhow.)


Page 8
Orks live on innumerable worlds.
This would presumably fit with the "galaxy is Green" map so often mentoned to me or cited (and yes, I've seen it.) We can conclude they have at least as many planets as the Imperium, probably more (given the differences in population dentisies.)

Page 8
Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra, its mission to reach the utmost limit of the uiverse. The Techpriests who built it hoped that it would someday return to its place of origin after circunavigating the universe. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and its uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who monitor the incessant battery of incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that wherever they travel in space, there's a good chance that the Orks will either have been there first or won't be long in arriving too.[
This will probably get recycled a number of times in materials, but its been mentioned in later editions at least several times I can recall. Not only is it interesting for the fact hat Orks are in other galaxies, but it also suggests that the Imperium is still listening to the probe (and is able to receive/decipher signals from thousands of light years away)

Page 9
Over the millenia, Orks have tried to direct or even plan their journeys. In doing so, they employ the talents of their shamans, the Ork Psykers known as Weirdboyz. The Weirdboyz navigate as best they can using whatever scraps of lore and mythology that have been handed down to them about space currents. Tribes do manage to direct htemselves to specific places from tiem to time (more by chance than by design), but uncertainty of desitnation remains a perpetual hazard.
In this context Weirdboyz seem to serve the purpose of Navigators, but apparently with little to no success. In theory at least it shoudl be possible - Weirdboyz are just a sort of "outlet " for the Orkish psychic gestalt (and presumably potential vessels for Gork and Mork's actions) so it should be possible for them to be guided by a higher power (if it wanted to, which given Gork and mork, probably doesnt care unless the situation is important.)

Page 25
Mass production of identical items is not a strong point of Ork culture - they lack the application and the technical expertise. Most mass production is performed as tribute by subservient races. The tradition of original craftsmanship is known among the Orks as kustom. Everyhting in Ork society is kustom-built.

...


When Orks want precision engineering, sophisticated design, and high technology, they demand it as tribute from races that have the appropriate skills.
Again we see how Orkish industry breaks down - mass produced items (presumably the bulk of their gear) comes from tribute from other races or from their slaves, while Ork tech is basically all specialized/customized (or "Kustom") stuff, though later sources do indicate that some Ork designs are also mass produced by slaves (buggis and whatnot.)

we may also infer from this that earlier editions of Orks using bolters may be tracecd back to the "slave production or tribute" angle

Page 63
There is no predilection ofr Chaos among the Orks; indeed, Orks are much less likely to turn to Chaos than Humans or other races. This is due to the fact tha tthe Ork race is relatively stable and content. There is little psychic stress or angst among the Orks, which leaves virutally no avenue through which Chaos can invade their minds. Some races confuse orks as being evil and thus snyonymous with Chaos. This is a misunderstanding on their part, however.

Orks are not inherently evil; neither is Chaos. Likewise, Orks do not naturally or consistently affiiliate with the forces of Chaos. Orks simply live by the crude survival-of-the fittest principles that pervade the universe. Warlike civilisations, such as that of the Orks, simply reflect these survivalist principles all the more. By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe. Thus, predatory powers of Chaos, be they deities or daemons, e xist because living things generate these emotions.
A reflection upon Orks, Chaos, and Evil. It is interesting from the context that they're less evil and more survivalist bastards. Though given later codexes, I think its safe to say Chaos is indeed more evil (or at least is put to more evil purposes).


Page 68
In addition to exploiting Gretchin, who are the most numerous element of Ork society and who bear the burdeen of keeping it functioning, Orks also exploit the talents of Humans, Squats, ,and other races through enslavement. The Orks have vast numbers of slaves. These include hordes of Gretchins and Snotlings, and a fair number of captive alien races. Among the slaves are Humans taken in Ork slave raids of isolated Imperium Outposts. They also include Humans taken from lost or remote settlements discovered by the Orks, but not yet rediscovered by the Impeirum.
This seems to imply the Gretchin/Grots are more numerous than Snotlings as well. Orks also rely heavily on their slaves to keep their society functioning (A combination of capturd slaves, gretchin, and snotlings.)

Page 68
The Orks need a regular supply of armaments and equipment if they are to be the equals of their enemies. Some of this equipment must be technologically sophisticated, but above all it must be reliable. The Ork mekboyz do a good job, but its not good enough on its own. The only solution is to enslave industrial communities and specialist workers. Following an Ork conquest of an area the Orks force the locals to manufacture armaments for them.

Often, a Warlord demands as tribute the construction of a relatively small spaceship (the Biggest ships would be beyond the means of many worlds, so Orks refurbish space hulks to use as really big spaceships.)
A bit more elabroation on the "slave races build our stuff" idea. This basically seems to confirm that the bulk of their technology comes from other races, while hte Meks provide rarer or more specialized stuff.

They also do seem to rely on slave races to build some starships of small size (Escorts?) while space hulks serve as their major warships. (Which can be good, bad or terrifying depending on the hulk.)

Page 90
There are countless Ork settlements of every conceivable kind scattered on planets throughout the universe. In addition, there are settlements of Ork tribes that perpetually drift through space aboard space hulks, as well as war bands that are in occupation of alien worlds.
Not all Ork tribes are planet-bound, apparently.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-19 11:50pm

More 1st/2nd edition stuff.. I just realized I have fluff from Rogue Trader I never posted, so this stuff is 1st edition, from the Rogue Trader core rules/manual. mainly the weapons and equipment descriptions:

Rogue Trader,

page 70
An auto-gun is comparable to a twentieth century automatic rifle in appearance and operation - although it uses caseless, small calibre ammunition and has a rate of fire far outweighing tha ancient weapon. Its main advantage is that it has a long effective range.
old style autogun description. We should note that "Automatic rifle" doesnt neccearily mean an "assault rifle", though that may be a possioble interpreation. We could take it to also mean Autoguns can comprise carbines, assault rifles, ,battle rifles (like na M-14), as well as certain kinds of light machine guns and (perhaps) large SMGs.

The bit about caseless ammo is itneresting, as it suggests they can design some pretty sophisticated guns, even if merely chem propelled. That, coupled with the higher ROF (suggesteD) indicates at least some autoguns have larger ammo supplies (like a HK MP-7 or the old G-11) Note that over the intervening years newer sourcees have diversified this - some sourcees still mentionc aseless weapons, while others (like IA5) use caesd, and use ammo that is larger and more powerful (although still suggesting great sophistication for their weapons technology.

Page 70
The Bolt gun, also known as the bolter or blaster, fires small bolts or shells having explosive or armour piercing tips.
Early definition of bolt guns. Note that they have "explosive or armor piercing" tips, but not necceariyl both. And not neccesarily rocket propelled. It probably goes without saying this is retconned (autoguns and stubbers can use explosive ammo)


Page 73
Needlers propel small slivers of poisoned chemical. These dissolve almost instantly on contact, slaying or paralysing the target. The propulsion unit is a small laser.
Needlers didnt change much from the RT era. Note the peculiar "laser propulsion" - I suppose it COULD be propelled by a laser, but I'd be hard pressed to guage the effectiveness or how it would work. (some sort of reaction effect triggered by laser vaporizing? That would be hard to control, methinks.)

Regardless, thsi method does tell us that they're propelled by methods different from conventional chemical propellants, indicating "alternate" means of projectile cannon tech exists.

page 75
Auto-pistols are rapid-firing automatic pistols similar to twentieht century sub-machine guns, but more compact. Still occasionally built on human frontier worlds, ,and carried by less sophisticated aliens, these are deadly weapons at short range,
Presuambly SMGs include single handed SMGs (like an Uzi) but not large SMGs like the MP-5 or the Thompson SMG. Suggests alot of power in a smaller package, t hough, regardless.

Page 78
The Jokaero make digital versions of the needle pistol, laspistol, and hand flamer. Each has exactly the same effects as the larger counterpart.
Digital weapons, which are fairly common in the 40K novels, seem to be comparable in power to a laspistol, simply a single shot. This is something to remember in later analysis.

Page 80
Stub gun: THis weapon, also known as a slug gun or hand gun, is similar to a twentieth century automatic. Stubs are adaptable, easily repaired, and ammo is relatively easy to make.
Context-wise, we can take this to mean non "fully automatic" weapons (some batlte rifles, assault rifles, etc.) but include revolvers, semiautomatic handguns, bolt action rifles, etc.

Page 82
Conversion beam projector. These are also known as beamers. They can only be fired if the operator is stationary - the weapon will not work on baord a moving vehicle. In order to assure stability, troops using beamers are often equipped with special stabilising boots and ground claws.

The weapon functions by converting matter into energy, creating an energy field to its front. The energy field increases in intensity as the beam extends further. Initially, the field builds up very slowly - so that troops in the path of the beam can avoid it fairly easily. AT its maximum extent the matter/energy conversion becomes so powerful so as to cause a violent explosion. Normally this would be at a range of 80 meters. However, any solid object which is in the path of th ebeam will feed the energy field causing a premature explosion, - and a good deal of damage.
Indicator of the Imperium having varied forms of "matter ot energy" conversion technology (as well as using antimatter, and other forms) They can presumably work this into some form of reactor as well as an explosive (or at least the AdMech can - this weapon may be alot "rarer" in current 40K so as to be virtually unheard of outside of higher circles.)

I believe its been revived as a limited use weapon as of 5th edition as well.

Page 82
The foundries of the Adeptus Mechancius on Earth comprise by far the largest of these weapon-shops, supplying the needs of over half the fleet and a quarter of the army.

....

The weapon smiths of the Adeptus Mechanicus are highly skilled individuals, fully versed not only in ballistic, energy, impact, and mechanical lore, but also in the secret auspices, rune divination, and mystic rites associated with the manufacture of armaments.
I'm not sure whether this implies the AdMech as a whole (which suggests other factories, perhaps allied to or leased from the Admech) or it implies that Mars alone supplies that much (which it could.. as I recall Mars is supposed to be pretty insane as far as production capability.)

Page 82
While the basic design [of items or weapons] is a matter of stricutre, individual weapon-smiths are free to introduce modifications and ornamentation into each batch of weapons. Weaponry is often further modiefied once it reaches the armies and fleets.

...

Each army and every naval supply base has its own weapon-smiths and foundires although on a lesser scale than those on the Imperial Planet.
While there may be standardized basic designs, thre can be alot of variation and mofidication of weapons both at the plant and after issue. It also seems that (although this is obviousyl before Forge Wrolds were introduced) that many planets (at least those with a significant Imperial military presence) have at leat limited production facilities


PAge 83
The distortion cannon, also known as the displacer cannon, displacer, D-cannon, warp cannon or warper, uses the same principle as a spacecraft's warpspace drives. The target is "warped" slightly into hyperspace, and then back again. This occurs in an uncontrollable fashion, exposing the target either to the deadly cold of interstellar vacuum or the inferno of the heart of a sun.
These I believe are largely the province of the Eldar alone now, though warp based munitions are possessed by the Imperium. Note as well the dated terminology,

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-11-20 12:46pm

With regards to the D-cannon and "hyperspace", RT implied there were other alternate dimensions, in the description of the teleporter (further mentioned in one of the Realms of Chaos books, IIRC).
"So you want to live on a planet?"
"No. I think I'd find it a bit small and wierd."
"Aren't they dangerous? Don't they get hit by stuff?"

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by DocHorror » 2008-11-20 02:01pm

I thought the old description of a Needler was essentially that the laser made a hole in armour for the poisoned needles to get through. Not that a laser propelled the needles themselves.
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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Bedlam » 2008-11-20 02:41pm

DocHorror wrote:I thought the old description of a Needler was essentially that the laser made a hole in armour for the poisoned needles to get through. Not that a laser propelled the needles themselves.
Thats one version I've read, another is that the laser propells the Needle by vaporising the back of it

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-20 03:13pm

Latter sources (Like the 2nd Edition Wargear book and Battle Manual preceding it) and the 2nd edition Guard Codex described needlers (more specifically, the needle sniper rifle) as using the laser to make a hole in the armour and allow the poisoned needle to slip through.

Example: This is from the wargear book, which si virtually identical to the Battle Manual IIRC

Page 17
The needle pistol or needler is a smaller less poweful but no less deadly, version of the sniper needle rifle. The weapon is based on the same design as the laspistol and fires bursts of laser energy which propel tiny toxic darts into the target. When the target is hit the laser blasts a hole and the needles slam home, delivering their toxin into the target's flesh.

...

The weapon may be used against any target, including vehicles, robots, and buildings, in which case it is the laser rather than the toxin which does the damage

Page 27, same source. Note text is identical to what is also in the 2nd IG codex, near as I can tell.
The rifle [needle sniper rifle] fires small darts made from a deadly neuro-toxin chemical. The liquid chemical is frozen into a dart or sliver by the gun before it is fired.

Unerring accuracy is afforded by a low power beam of invisible laser light which drives and guides the chemical dart to its target. If the target is armoued the beam automatically pulses when the rifle is fired, punching a tiny hole which allows the toxic dart to penetrate.

..

The weapon may be used against any target, including vehicles, robots and buildings, in which case it is the laser rather htan the toxin which does the damage.
The laser seems to serve a damaging, targeting/guidance function as well as propulsion (Integrated into the scope, perhaps? Integrated laser sight?)

Nearest guess I can make at "laser propulsion" would be some sort of variation on an Electrothermal gun tech (ET guns are similar to electrothermal chemical guns, a tech being considered as an alternative to railguns for certain vechiles like tanks. The principle behind ETC and ET guns is basically that you use an electrical charge to generate higher chamber pressures with propellant gases, increasing the speed of the gun. The difference is that ETC guns use already existing chem propellant, while an ET gun would use something else and thus require most of the energy provided by a battery or something similar.) Given insane 40K gun performance, its quite possible they do use this (I have speculated the Guard had alterante "technologies" developed which may be why they don't use railguns like the Tau do.)

You'll also note, curiously, that it describes needlers as being quite similar to lasguns (indeed the rifle can function basically as a lasgun against inorganic targets.) and it does seem to be highly armour-piercing due to this capability.

Dark heresy features needlers as well, though in that source its mentioned as being driven by an "impeller" which suggests some railgun-like capability.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-07 02:31pm

More Rogue Trader text concerning weaponry.

Page 84
Grenade launcher: A light tubular launcher that is capable of firing any grenades. There are many designs, but the principle shape is universal. Many of these launchers are designed to fire from a modified automatically-fed backpack. Grenade launchers perform a similar role to mortars in twentieth century warfare in that they can fire indirectly, and don't need a visible target.
Early incarnation of grenade launchers. Backpack mountings seem to be one possible modification here, though its not known who carries that (Terminators? Marines?)

Its also interesting in that in this incarnation they are likened to mortars with an indirect fire capability, which would tend to imply they have similar capabilities/ranges, (or at least longer range than modern grenade launchers) but this isn't definite.

Page 85
Heavy stubs are clumsy just like the twentieth century heavy machine guns they resemble. Their use is mostly confined to yokel miliia units.
Heavy stubbers and ther likening to HMGs (Ma Deuces and the like.) Jokingly (or disturbingly) they're considered weapons used by "colonial" or "backwoods" militias, though "yokels" makes me think its a redneck weapon (think of southerners with a Ma Deuce.)

more sophisticated/"modern" units presumably use man portable autocannon or heavy bolters.
Missile Launcher. This weapon is similar in appearance to the grenade launcher but is larger, and is fired direct - usually off the shoulder. They fire any of the missile shots listed under Grenades and missiles.
Oddly missile launchers are direct fire unlike grenades, which suggests they have shorter ranges.

Page 86
The las-cannon, laser cannon, or blazooga, is a weighty tubular weapon usually fired off the shoulder, or from a mount of some kind. It is frequently mounted on vehicles as their main armament.
Heh. "Blazooga" is a silly name, but this confirms that lascannon come in shoulder-fired as well as mounted types (includinv vehicles.) This tends to hint that the "portable" versions are of similar magnitude to the vehicle ones (or at least certain kinds)
The multi-laser is a rapid-firing combination laser chamber designed to slice its way through compact bodies of troops. In operation this makes it comparable to a twentieht century quadrupedally mounted bofors gun - delivering a hail of fire against its target. It is a weighty device and usually vehicle mounted.
Multi-lasers. "usually" vehicle mounted suggests that other mountings may exist (man portable possibly even, at least mounted on some sorrt tof carriage.) Which isnt surprising considering lascannon.
Like the multi-laser, this is a combination weapon that has a number of melta-barrels. It is a viscous and effective weapon, if rather short-ranged. Targets are just melted away - turning creatures into pools of steaming protoplasm, and vehicles into so much twisted goo.
Multi-meltas. Vehciels into "twisted goo" may mean melting.

Page 87
Defence lasers are very large weapons indeed, with a laser chamber over 15 metres long, and an overall weight of many tons. They are usually set inside permanent and immovable concrete silos. The power drain of these weapons is enormous, and speical generators are integral to their design. They can be built into vehicles, assuming you can find one big enough, but this is not usual. Their main purpose is to fire off planet, into the upper atmosphere against incoming missiles and spacecraft. Positioned on top of high buildings they can be used against ground targets, and are ideal for siege warfare. Their range is limited only by the curvature of the planet. This factor limits their usefulness against gorund targets - giving a pracitcal range of under a mile at ground height.
Various details on defense lasers:

- They weigh "many tons" and have laser chambers 15 meters long (setting minimums on their dimensions.)

- They require special, ,dedicated generators due to power drain. (Which suggests that it is not common to have them powered by other means.) Though this may depend on version

- Defence lasers can be vehicle mounted but this isnt common (one presumes this refers to Titan grade defencee lasers)

- They are both anti ship and point defense - one presumes these are different kinds of armament unless they mean particularily large missiles.

- Defence lasers (or at least certain kinds) can be employed in defense against ground targets, with their only limiting factor being line of sight (a mile at ground level) There's implication that they are used frequently in siege warfare (Cf siege of Vraks)
Macro-cannon are the largest and heaviest versions of the auto cannon. They fire explosive shells of considerable size and potency. A macro-cannon can be mounted on a large vehicle but they are more commonly used in emplacements and for static defence. They can be used for indirect fire. maximum range is about 40 kilometres.
Macro cannon are considered a "variant" of auto-cannon. They fire explosive shells (like autocanon.) Like defence lasers they can be vehicle mounted (like titans) but more used as emplacements. They are indirect fire weapons with a max range of about 40 km - a range that would match the size and power of the largest WW2 battleship guns (sixteen and eighteen inch guns.) Its worth noting that in some of Abnett's earlier novels Macro-cannon are noted for flinging multi-ton shells, which woudl also mesh with the whole "battleship scale" firepower.

Page 90
Blast grenades and missiles have an actual physical effect - they explode!
Presumablyt "blast" grenades refer to frag weapons, but it might also mean concussion.

Page 90
Field-effect weapons produce a short lived energy field on detonation. The effects of the field vary according to the weapon.
Not sure what would qualify as a "field effect" weapon. Melta munitions maybe. Plasma weapons might. I presume these are the 40K equivalent of Thermal detonatros./

Page 91
Crack - these shells and grenades are designed for "cracking" open armour. Accordingly, they need to be placed more carefully than most grenades and their throwing range is half normal. As well as the normal crack shell, there is also a special crack missile which is more powerful - this is only available in missile form and must be fired from a missile launcher.
Armour penetrating rounds. They're not explicitly mentioned as shaped charge or "concentrated" yield, but this is basically their purpose as we know from later roles. Note the "half range" value.

Page 91
Frag. These are standard anti-personnel grenades- they explode scatetring fragments of casing over an area.
Given this, Frag grenades are different than blast grernades.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-12-07 06:56pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:More Rogue Trader text concerning weaponry.

Page 84
Grenade launcher: A light tubular launcher that is capable of firing any grenades. There are many designs, but the principle shape is universal. Many of these launchers are designed to fire from a modified automatically-fed backpack. Grenade launchers perform a similar role to mortars in twentieth century warfare in that they can fire indirectly, and don't need a visible target.
Early incarnation of grenade launchers. Backpack mountings seem to be one possible modification here, though its not known who carries that (Terminators? Marines?)
Eldar Harlequins, although that particular version had its own rules, as I recall. Terminators could get a grenade rack built into their armour, but again, it was a distinct item of equipment, different from the 'grenade launcher' presented here.
"So you want to live on a planet?"
"No. I think I'd find it a bit small and wierd."
"Aren't they dangerous? Don't they get hit by stuff?"

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-08 02:48am

That's right. although this is "Rogue Trader" era where alot of the weapons and tech were alot more generalized - you could have Guardsmen fielding Land Raiders and LAnd Speeder's still, and bolters could be wielded by more than just the Astartes (and you had Orks in flak with bolters and plasma weapons and so on and os forth.)

oh and human shuriken weapons :P

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-21 04:08am

More Rogue Trader... This stuff is interesting because some of the latter stuff also deals with implied capital ship weapons and has (in my mind) some really impressive capabilities implied.. and despite it being "old" material I'd say alot of it carries through.

Page 92
Haywire. When haywire shells/grenades detonate they release a massive burst of electro-magnetic energy . This is sufficeint to cause damage to living tissue, but it is really aimed at electrically operated machinery.

Equipment inside vehicles deirves a certain amount of protection from the armour and vehicle-shell.

...

A vehicle's engines, power-supply, etc. Can be affected.

...

It is not always obvious which items are affected by haywire - especially low tech items which may or may not have electrically driven components. Obviously, clubs, swords, ,and similar wepaons have no moving parts or electrical components and couldn't be affected. Antique firearms and stub-guns are purely mechanical and cannot be harmed.
Basically an EMP grenade in practice, though the fact it can cause physical damage is interesting as well.

Page 93
A plasma shell releases a cloud of flesh-boiling plasma over its effect area. The effect area remains until it disperes
Note that the "range" of the plasma is noted to be betwene 4-8" IF we were to use game mechanics (1 inch = 2 meters as stated in the scales part of the intro) means a radius of 8-16 meters. Referencing SWTC's explosions page and assuming a roughly 10 m diameter fireball, w e can figure around 100-150 MJ or so (maybe hundreds of megajoules) for the plasma grenade.
When Psyk-out shells detonate they release fine dust particles which are heavily impregnated with negative psychic energy. This form of psychic energy is extremely rare - in the whole of human space it can be obtained only as a by-product of the Emperor's unique metabolism. Using this material to make anti-psychic weapons is considered by many to be a great waste, and their issue and use is strictly controlled.
anti-psyker weapons (at least of a certain kind) I don't want to guess as to the "by-product"
Radiation shells release dangerous radioactivity from their landing point.
Radiation weapons seem to be a fairly well developed technology for 40K (and they're ruthless enough to use them)

Page 94
A stasis shell detonates creating a stasis field within which time is distorted and virtually ceases to exist. A field is unaffected by all events around it, it cannot be fired into or through.
One presumes these are rarer in "modern" 40K than they may have been in 1st edition. STasis tech is still used in some forms but I'm not sure just how "common" I'd call it.

Page 94
Virus shells are germ warfare weapons, perfected to a reasonably safe and controlled degree. The types of virus used can and do, ,vary a grerat deal, and it owuld be theoretically possible to manufacture species discriminating types. However the rate of mutation is such that that it would be impossible to guarantee this, so the weapons are rarely used for stragetic decimation.

...

The virus is genetically programmed to mutate into a harmless form once the killing spree has stopped. Note - although considered instnatnaoues, a virus would normally spread no faster than half a mile from teh detonation point during a single game turn. Also, although the effects of the virus are assumed to last only one turn, in fact in 1% of all uses it will break out again at a random moment within the next 10 years.
Virus weaponry. One presumes these are related to the virus bombs known to be employed in Exterminatus (or at least a kind of such virus weapons) If so this would indicate that the level of devastation such viruses inflict is more scalable (and thus only does Exterminatus in large quantities.) This is borne out by examples in 13th Legion as well as the Armageddon Ork Wars (Von STrab having virus warheads stockpiled.) Thought he novel "Angles of Darkness" had a more viruelnt form of virus weapon IIRC.

Page 96
A vortex shell creates a small disruption in the space/time fabric, a spinning whirlpool of destruction like a tiny black hole. The disruption is called a vortex field. You cannot see or fire through a vortex field. All buildings, scneery and models caught in the area are destroyed automatically - a vortex destroys all matter and energy.

...

Vortex fields are actually spherical in shape, leaving a crater where they have been, a moving field cuts a trench. The probelm with these weapons is that they are unpredictable (They are also very well and extortionately expensive.
We know Vortex weapons can be scaled up to missiles (like Deathstrikes or Titan missiles ) as well as down to grenades, so that Vortex "shells" existed should be no surprise. Note that I do not take "destroys matter and energy" literally, since that is scientificaly impossible. What it must mean is that it dumps mass/energy into the warp, where it is "effectively" destroyed.

page 97
Mines are comparable in effect to grenades and shells. In fact, all of the grenade type weapons can be adapted to mine form by the use of a simple pressure, ,temprueature or proximity fuse or similar device.
Similariities between mine and shell weapons. One can infer that yields/effects between such weapons could be broadly similar.
All off-table support weapons are large. They may be fired from silos many miles away, or from orbiting spacecraft or overflying aircaft. Some of the larger missiles can be laucnehd from the edge of a solar system towards planets many millions of miles away.
Note the interesting implied weapons range and targeting capabilities of some weapons (at least missiles and presumably torpedoes.) They can target and hit planets, but in context this means they can hit tarrgets ON planets from the edge of a system (or millions of miles away, ,depending on how you want ot take the context.) This implies fairly high level of precise targeting ability as well as long weapons ranges (either many light seconds by the "millions of miles" reference or many hundreds of millions/billions of km based on the "edge of the system" interpretation.)

More than a few sources (such as the Lightnener Space Wolf novels and the Blood Angel novels) have hinted at such ranges.
A barrage bomb is a long range tactical missile designed to be used primarily against cities or emplacements. range is practically unlimited. A barrage bomb can be fitted with drives, enabling it to be launched from the edge of a solar system at a target on a distant planet. Before striking its target the missile divides into 6 fragments.
Barrage bombs seem to be basically MIRVs, with presumably nuclear-grade weapons. Again, note the whole "edge of a solar system" range bit, and that it does indeed clarify it can target individual objects ON the planet.

PAge 98
Disruptor beacon. These are missile launched devices. They serve a tactical role on the battlefield, making communication difficult. A disruptor beacon emits a constant signal that dampens all other radio signals emanating from within 100". All communication beocmes impossible whislt the beacon is intact.
munition-deployed Electronic warfare/jamming devices, in other words. We know they're used in BFG as well, so we can infer that some forms of jamming/EW do exist in 40K despite not being explicitly mentioned. These may be a counterpart or variation to "Blind" grenades (which block targeting.)

Page 98
Homing beacon. A homing beacon emits a constant signal that can be tracked using a communicator or other receiver. Addiional off=-table supporrt weapons can be fired onto the position of a beacon an dwill home in on the signal - negating any chance of deviation.
commonly in 40K beacons are used as an effective means of allowing precision fire on targets via orbital bombardment, such as in Storm of Iron (but other examples exist in the literature.)

Page 98
Mine missile: This is a large parent missile which shatters above its target, scattering an area 12" raidus with thousands of tiny, coin-sized micro-mines.
Simply a delivery vehicle for mines, although the mines here are extremly small (and presumably nasty.) Though this may be more of a restricted technology in the Imperium in "modern" 40K/


Page 98
In theory there is no reason why any of the grenade and missile types shouldn't be available in larger support versions. It would be possible to manufacture a missile of any size: from a weapon little larger than a normal launcher shell, to one capable of wiping out a city, province or continent.

..

Effects are the same as the grenade equivalent.


This is interesting because it includes plasma and melta weapons, implying that such munitions (which also exist as torpedoes) could in theory create city or continent scale destruction, ,whcih would require yields well into the gigaton and teraton range or even greater (tens or hundreds of teratons for continents easily.)

Page 98
Nightlight: These are relatively small missiles, usually around 2-3 metres long. They are fired into the sky where they fully illuminate the area of the game for 2d3 turns.
A flare, basically.

Page 98
A plasma bomb is a large missile typically used by or against spacecraft. They are also used for planetary sieges. The missile energises at launch, converting into a mass of seething plasma - each missile becomes a ball of boiling energy sufficient to melt a city-block. As it converts to plasma, the missile divides into 6 fragments, this enables the plasma to spread out and saturate its target. A target under plasma attack becomes a blazing inferno which only the very fortunate survive.

Range is practically unlimited. A plasma bomb can be fitted with drives enabling it to be launched from the edges of a solar system agianst a target on a distant planet. A powered missile of this kind is sometimes known as a plasma torpedo, or plasma lance.
Description of the operation of a "plasma bomb" (or plasma missile) Like barrage bombs, it seems to be a MIRV type weapon, and also like barrage bombs it has an "edge of the solar system" range as well (against targets). The interesting thing here is that it implies that these weapons can also be employed as anti-ship weapons, suggesting possibly that missile duels (At least) can be conducted over very long ranges.

Note that "melting a city block" can take alot less than gigaton/TT energies implied by the earlier quote I addressed, as most city blocks in modern times rarely get into kilometers square (what you'd need to achieve gigaton range outputs), it is possible in 40K given the types of planets avaialble (Hive and Forge worlds, in particular.) Not to mention that 40K material supersciene is basically as magical as anything in SW, so its not really easy to calc the yield based on that except in a conservative manner.
scatter missile: This missile breaks up before impact, scattering 6 standard type grenades.
A more generalized sortt of MIRV weapon.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-12 12:52am

Next update - protective devices and other technologies...

Page 114
Carapace body armour. Carapace armour comrpises especially thick plates of flexible plastic reinforced by synthetic fibre or ceramic. Each plate is moulded to fit a part of the body. It gives good protection, but is cumbersome.
...

It is not practical to combine carapace with other sorts of physical armour due to its bulk. The main advantage of this form of protection is that it is air-sealed, offering protection from gas weapons when worn with a respirator.
1st edition carapace. Interestingly enough its self-contained, like stormtrooper armor. No doubt examples of this type exist (or with other variations or capabilities) but others are much more "open".

Page 114
Conversion field. This is an energy field, and exceept when actually taking effect it is invisible. The field converts all energy to light, including combat and shooting damage. A successful save causes a flash to illuminate a circular area with a radius equal to the strenght of the attacker/weapon in inches. Within this area troops will be blinded on the d6 throw of a 4, 5, or 6 unless wearing some kind of eye protection A converision field will protect the wearer's eyes so that no ill effects are suffered from his own light blas.
The interesting bit about this is that you might be able to estimate the dissipation rate if you knew the surface area of the shield vs the brightness it caused.

Page 114
Displacer field. This is an all-enclosing energy field, but is quite invisible unitl it takes effect. The field responds to any combat or shooting damage by activating a tiny warp drive mechanism contained in a belt pouch. On a successful save the target is instantly transported d6 inches in a totally random direction. A safety mechanism prevents the model transporrting into a wlal or other solid object. This is accompanied by a flash of light which although not harmful will expose hidden troops in the same way as shooting.
Displacer field, much like the techniology witnessed in use by Amberley in "For the Emperor".

Page 115
Mesh armour is made from teh same plastic material used in the lining of flak armour. This material is formed into very small shapes, usually hexagons or octagons about 2mm across,. These are fastened together, or meshed with further material to produce a felxible fabric. This gives the appearance of reptile scales, or old-fashioned mail armour.

..

Mesh can be worn in conjunction with flak..
Mesh armour. In practice it seems like Mesh is just a more densely fabricated, more compact version of flak (same materials, just constructed better.) We might (broadly) infer that the two aren't dramatically different in terms of capability or protection level.

PAge 115-116
Powered armour consists of an all-enclosing protective suit, life-support system, and many technically advanced featuers. The natural weight and cumbersomeness of the armour is overcome by a system of electrically motivated fibre-bundles which replicate in every way the muscular movements of the wearer. So, although heavy, the wearer is free to move without penalty. auto-senses and communicator are included, together with respriators which enable the suit to be used in any atmosphere or har vaccuum. Controls are minimal, most of the suit functions are automatic. Control message and hazard warnings can be given by the suit either audibly or visually, and the suit's built-in computer will respond to vocal commands.
Power armour as we know and love. Its worth noting that the mass of power armour is likely more than what the person could possibly carry (hundreds of kilos perhaps.) We can probably conclude that most Sororitas, Astartes and perhaps some inquisition armour falls into this category, though we know some high end Arbites/Guard leaders, Rogue Traders, wealthy elite (Necromunda) and bounty hunters (Lucius Worna from Ravenor) can possess some form of powered armor (presumably of a lower grade than what the others get.)

Page 116
Refractor field. This is an all-enclosing energy field powered from a small pack. When it is turned on, the wearer is surrounded by a hazy band of light. This gives away hidden troops in teh same way as weapons fire. WEapon and hand-to-hand combat damage is partially refracted around the field, dampening it seffects.
Refractor fields, though in principle more like reflector fields.
Stasis field. This is an all-enclosing energy field. It works on a similar principle to warp drives as used on spacecraft. The field can be turned on at the beginnin g of the players turn and remains active until the beginning of his next turn - approximately 10 seconds of real time. The effect is to generate a complete statsi around the wearer. The user becomes ethereal, and cnanot be harmed in any way at all: he appears transparent and hazy.
Stasis technology.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-20 03:19am

Page 121

Auto-sense. These are a combination of different artificial sensory organs that relay information directly into the brain, bypassing the creature's own natural sensory organs altogether. Characters wearing dreadnought suits receive information this way. Autosesne cna be fitted into helmets, vehicles or almost any item of equipemnt, and have safety mechanisms that prevent extrems of sensory stimulation. This means that weapons designed to blind (such as photon grenades) will have no effect. Auto-senses are not normally capable of infra-veision, but can be modified with suitable visors.
Description of auto senses, a common feature in Space Marine armor and certain other (I think) Power armors.

Page 121
Auto-systems are simply robotic systems that negate the need for a huuman operator. They can be fitted to vehicles in the guise of auto-drive (replacing the need for a driver) auto-aim (taking the place of a weapon crewman) and auto-fac (which operates all other facilities - radios, doors, etc.) Auto-systems can be fitted to any equipment no matter how small or large. automatic robotic defence guns featuring auto-aim are commonly used to defend all sorts of installations as well as public buildings, jails, etc. Auto-systems have no technical level because they are independently functioning machines, they require no operator as such.
"Auto systems" didnt carry past the 2nd edition, but in later sourcecs we ould assume a "machine spirit" in the vehicle. Technically only really sophisticaetd ones are meant to have machien spirits (like Land Raiders) but we may infer that some older vehicles could have them .

Page 121
A bio-scnaner detects living matter of any kidn within 4" of a nominated point but not more than 10" away from the user. REadings will indicate abnormal concentrations of tissue, such as large creatures or close groups. The scanner can differentiate between animals nad vegetation, ,and can read through rock or metal up to 5 metres thick.
Bio scanners like energy scanners can generally (under most sources save perhaps Inquisitor) be lumped under auspex.
Cameleoline is a substance that can be woven in to the structure of most fabrics. It is unusual in that it offers chameloen-like protection - appearing to merge into the backgorund. The material is fashioned into cloaks, coverings, ponchos and canoples of all kinds.
Cameleoline can be worked into more than just cloaks and capes....
An energy-scanner detects energy emissions within 4" of a nominated point not more than 10" away frorm the user. This will indicate the position of functioning equipment, vehicles, robots, weapons, etc. It will not detect ordinary life functions, but psychic activity will show up as an extremely high reading. Radiation sources will not show up as d istinct from other emissions.
Again, this probably can be lumped under the general purpose "auspex" category.

Page 122
A flight pack is worn on the back. It can be controlled either by manual control (which requires a free hand) or by direct mind-impulse link. the pack enables the wearer to fly, using a small thrust jet combined with suspensors.
Flight packs seem to be reserved mainly for Assault Marines in modern times, but it isnt impossible for others (IE the guard) to use them still.
Frenzon is used extensively amongst the penal legions; army units consisting entirely of convicted criminals, debtors, liberals and other social transgriessors.
Fairly comon combat drug, although we note these are used mainly among the "cannon fodder" regiments. Note that this being the "parody" age of 40K rather than "Grimdark", the thing about "liberals" is rather amusing (though I'm sure it would be taken to extremes in modern 40K)

Page 122
A gravity chute is a pack-sized suspensor that allows a character to flaot safely to the ground from anyy height. Such devices can be used to drop troops onto a battlefield, either from a low flying aircraft or from the upper atmosphere.
Grav chutes have remained essentially unchanged and highly commonplace. It never fails to amaze me that it can be believed the Imperium has nearly "lost" gravtech and yet have this simple device.

Page 122
Immune is a broad spectrum immunisation that offers some protection against viral attacks, as well as from general disease and ill health. A single dose remains effective for about 100 days
This has existed in some form or another (I remember mention of it in various books, including the Ghosts novels I believe.) It is a rather interesting implication for their abilities, given the scope of the Imperium and the sheer variety of diseases they would have to protect against, nevermind viral attacks.
Infra-vision. This is a form of enhanced vision - it enables creatures to see heat, and to see through most ofrms of soft cover as if it weren't there. This means that an enemy can oaften be targeted even if it is otherwise hiding. Infra-vision enables a creature to see in the dark as if it were normal daylight. engine exhausts, fires and other heat sources will all be blatantly visible.

- Infra-vision surgery is used to graft artifiically cultured heat-sensitive itssue on or in the recipient's eyes.

- Infra-vision visors can be fitted to all forms of headgear (including those with auto senses) or worn as goggles.

- Infra-vision contact lenses are colourless and cannot normally be seen.
[/quote]

elements of this still exist in most forms (visors do, they can even be fitted to scopes.) and the "surgical" bit can either be tied to augmetics or general AdMech surgery (we know of Guardsmen who are surgically modified in various ways for various purposes. Gland Warriors are a notable example, as are a regiment of Elysiasn modified for hostile atmospheres in Imperial armour 4, and the third Ravenor novel had Guard troopers modified with psy blockers.)

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by andrewgpaul » 2009-01-20 06:09pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Page 121
Page 122
A flight pack is worn on the back. It can be controlled either by manual control (which requires a free hand) or by direct mind-impulse link. the pack enables the wearer to fly, using a small thrust jet combined with suspensors.
Flight packs seem to be reserved mainly for Assault Marines in modern times, but it isnt impossible for others (IE the guard) to use them still.

Page 122
A gravity chute is a pack-sized suspensor that allows a character to flaot safely to the ground from anyy height. Such devices can be used to drop troops onto a battlefield, either from a low flying aircraft or from the upper atmosphere.
Grav chutes have remained essentially unchanged and highly commonplace. It never fails to amaze me that it can be believed the Imperium has nearly "lost" gravtech and yet have this simple device.
I think Flight Packs are different to the Jump packs worn by Assault Marines - allowing sustained flight rather than long leaps.

As for Grav Chutes, as well as being standard equipment for Elysian Drop Trooper regiments, these can be found in the Underhive areas of Necromunda. So much for "rare and irreplaceable". :)
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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Shadowtraveler » 2009-01-21 01:50am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Grav chutes have remained essentially unchanged and highly commonplace. It never fails to amaze me that it can be believed the Imperium has nearly "lost" gravtech and yet have this simple device.
Well, compare the technology of the Imperium at large with that used regularly in the Guard. The Guard, at least to me, seems to favor robustness and ease of maintenance over sophistication. That's why you don't see hovertanks but do see hovercars and crazy implants that let you shrug off acid rain.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Andras » 2009-01-21 08:55pm

Rad grenades were pretty brutal the first time you use one, then everyone buys Radsuits and they get ignored. I dropped a Virus bomb on a battle against Orks one night, and that was the end of the game.

Stasis grenades could also end a game really quick since there was no counter. At least one Ork flyer got stasised in mid-air.

Missiles can't be used indirectly because they have a higher velocity and don't arch down if fired at a high angle.

The original auto-cannon fired a single explosive shell instead of a burst of solid shells.

The scatter missiles would drop 6 submunitions equal to grenades around a single impact point.

At least one game was over on the first turn because someone spent all their points on a large radii Vortex support missile.

One could wear Flak armor over Power Armor and get a better armor save at a cost in movement.

Displacer fields were the best because it could get you out of a HTH in which the opponent went first. 3+ save on the first hit = Get out of Dodge.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-02-06 03:15am

Last update for the "equipment" porrttion of RT. I remember separating this parrticular stuff into specific entries because it was so huge.. I'll have to check if I left any weapons or stuff out. heh.


Page 122
A jump pack permits its wearer to make a long, powered jump instead of a normal move. Unlike a lfight pack, a model using a jump pack does not remain airborne but takes off, jumps, and then lands all as part of its movement.
The difference between jump and lfight packs seems to have been lost in later editions, but I assume its largely a difference of scale/application/power, rather than different technologies.

Page 123
A las-cutter is an industrial tool used to cut through solid metal, rock, etc.
An example of laser technology that is pretty formidable, even if short ranegd, evne though the common "in joke" is that lasguns are little more than flashlights. (A focused enough laser could be nasty, such as a cutting beam, and we know they can be made into cutting/slashing beams.)

Page 123
Phase field generator. This useful tool was originally developed for use in the mining industry, being another technical spin-off from the warp drives employed on spacecraft. THe machine projects a small area into warp space, and holds it there for a short period - possibly several minutes. Living cratures caught in the affected area will be killed. solid objects literally disappear, opening up a gap or hole through which troops can move. Once the machine has stabilised the field, creatures or objects can move into the affected area without being affected themselves. The only problem with the device is that material can only be held in warp space for a limited amount of time. The unpredictability of the machine is a major drawback - individuals caught in the area during a sudden and unexpected materiliasation of the warped material are killed instantly.
This little technology has remained in various novels in one form or another (mentioned in the battlefleet gothic novels, for example.) The mecahnics behind its operation are interesting, similar to other "warp" technologies (related to displacement defenses, warp missiles, ,and the like.) and presumably has a relationship to the webway and the Ork "Shokk attack gun."

I dont know for certain wheter or not in "modern" 40K this qualifies as "lost" tech, since I can't remember all the examples in the novels. If it remained in operation on some worlds as an existing technology it would be interesting, to say the least.

Page 124
A power canopy is a field generated screen that can be used to seal off a vehicle from the atmoshpere - especially open-topped vehicles.
An interesting application of forcefield technology.


Page 124
Power field generator. This is a devicec which creates a barrier of pure energy around itself. The resultant field can be any size, depending on the amount of power fed into it. It is invisible, and takes the form of a spherical bubble centered on the generator. Any objecte ncountering the field will feel a slight shock; this is usually sufficient to discourage animals. Any object or creature trying to force a way through the shield will be stopped, whether originating from within or without the enclosed area. It is impossible to destroy a barrier exceept by overloading its power sourcee. Power sourcese are graded according to the radius of bubble they can maintain. However a bubble may be many miles in radius and encompass a considerable area.
Power fields. Note the "Warning" effect as well as the repulsive properties. Also note that power fields can be quite large (multi-mile radii.) implying some theatre-shield like qualities.

Page 124
A rad-suit is an all-enclosing sealed suit which will protect the wearer against all damage from radiation. It is loose fitting, and can be worn over armour or other clothing.

...

Sealed suits are simply self-sustaining life s upport suits. They are usually flimsy and transparent, and always include repsirators. Such a suit isolates the weare from all gases and harmful atmospheres. A sealed suit is very loose fitting and can be worn over armour or other clothing.
NBC protection. Rather curious that you'd wear it OVER armour, since having the suit penetrated would be rather lethal.

Page 124
Suspensors are small antigravity generators, similar to those used in hover vehicles, flight packs, power-boards, etc. They are quite small, usually no more than 10cm across, and are usually round and flat like a yo-yo.

..

Each suspensor cancels out the equivvalent to 10 kilos. An item under suspension will float freely and will move around if pulled or pushed.
Suspensors, and their "carrying" capacity Note that this is rather interesting to compare to uses of suspensors later on (implying they help to counter weight but not let it float) - possibly differences in sophistication for the tech.

Page 124
Targeter: These devices combine various optical and electronic sights, togehter with a guidance system in the case of missiles.
Description of targeters, implying they exist for missiles as well as guns (And both are distinct.)

Page 125-126
A teleporter is al arge piece of equipment and must be built into a spacecraft or building. It comprises a set of central controls and a teleport chamber. Objects more than twice man-height can never be teleported, and any attempt ot do sol will always cause a malfunction. Teleporters will transport cargoes from ship to ship, ship to planet or vice versa. They cannot be used to move objects from one part of a planet to another. Teleport beams can pentrate only a limited amount of solid matter (about 5 metres) but always travle in stralight lines. This is why planet to planet transport is not possible- the curvature of the planet imposes a significant blocking thickness.

Up ot 6 man-sized objects or creatures can be teleproted from the teleport chamber at once. A teleporter will rarely place its cargo 100% accuralte, although safety features do prevent materialisation inside another object.

The maximum range of a teleporter is 100 kilometres. Teleportation is the standard method of moving fighting men onto a planet's surface quickly and with the lest danger/

Teleporters, their capabil ites, and t heir limitations. Nite that the ability to "penetrate solid matter" does imply intersting things about h ull thicknesses on 40K ships.

note also that they are line of sight, limited to high atmosphere/low orbit (At least this manner is) and that it is/was considered a "standard method" of deploying troops on-planet. back then.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-02-11 04:53am

Next update. A fast forward a bit in time to the second edition rulebook. Oddly among the rulebooks, I didnt really pull a great deal of data from this one (at least quantifiable anyhow) - much of that seemed to crop up in other sources (Wargear, Codex Imperialis, etc.) Still, there are a few things to bring up, though it will comprise a single update.

Anyways, as always, enjoy...

Page 33
For example, if an Imperial Guardsmen wearing flak armour were hit by a relatively low-powered laspistol there'd be a good chance that his armour would absorb the damage and leave him unharmed. On the other hand, if he were hit by the blast of the larger and more poweful lascannon then his armour would be vapourised instantly!
Flak armor should be at least capable of stopping laser pistol shots. Presumably this is the "soft" flak rather than the hardshell stuff. This suggests flak can absorb/dissipate energy in the double/triple digit KJ range up to single digit MJ

Also, ,lascannon shots vaporize flak armor (and probably the wearer underneath.) Suggesting triple digit (or so) energy outputs (If it vaporizes the torso of the person under the armor.. I'm not evne counting hte armor itself)

Page 38
Most weapons can fire only once during the shooting phase, though this may in fact represent the wepaon firinga short burst of fire. A few special weapons are not restricted to one shot but can fire several bursts at one or more targets. This is called sustained fire.

...

These are weapons which fire a lengthy burst, often using a motor to force round after round into the firing chambers, spewing out a hail of bullets or devastating energy blasts.
desccription/clarification of sustained fire weapons (at least in rules).

Page 48
The indomitable Space Marines of the Imperium are legendary for their incredible bravey. Even in the face of devastating casualties and hopeless odds they will hold out to the last and only grudgingly withdraw while there is a chance of victory. However, this does not mean that they will hurl themselves at the enemy regardless of danger - Space Marines are quite aware of their own worth and will not throw away their lives in displays of futile bravo.
Despite being described as fearless and even psychopathic, they are not stupid (At least in certain respects.)


PAge 73
I counted twenty thousand souls bound for sevice.

...

They would serve with their lives. The remainder woudl serve in their own way. Their powers would be trained to provide the Emperor's Psykers, Astropaths, and thousands of other functions.
On board a black ship. 20,000 psykers (At least in this one), many of whom serve in diferent functions (including sanctioned psykers, astropaths, and "thousands of other" functions)

Page 77
Throughout the galaxy, on the Forge Worlds of the Tech Priests, their weapon shops labour night and day to produce the armaments that the Imperium depends upon for its suvival. Oribtal factories build spacecraft as massive as cities, ornate with engine spires and elaborate gargoyles to ward away the evil spirits of warp space. Assembly lines stretch for mile upon mile over the steel shod plains of the Forge Worlds...

..

Entire fleets sail from the Forge Worlds, cargocraft carrying in their swollen bellies innumerable fighting vheicles and millions of deadly machines for the Emperor's Wars. Though most worlds produce weapons, and the Space Marine Chapters maintain their own forges, only the Forge Worlds of the TEch Priests can produce the billions of weapons expended by the millions strong armies of the Imperial guard. Only the Adeptus Mechanicus hold all the secrets of runically engineered warp engines , of stacked crystal drives, and the dangerously unpredictable warp-coil technology.
Descriptions of the AdMech and Forge Worlds. Note the "orbital factories" building ships as big as cities. The numbers ar eprobably artitrary (billions) of weapons for "millions strong armies" and "millions" of machines.

Page 84
The warrior's flak jacket and uniform were scorched with mottled sulphur splashes. His right cheek was a livid mass of burned flesh, black and purple where the chemical flame had touched it. He staggered into the bunker, gazed around uncertainly and immediately fell to the floor where he lay drawing his breath in great wheezing gasps. Hands reached down to help the stricken man, and a medic cradled the injured warrior's head as he affixed a pain-blocking neuro transmitter.
The man dies shortly later, but provides at least some protection from flamethrower/incendiary weapons. Note also the "pain blocking neuro-transmitter" - some medics do uise some fairly sophisticated tech even on field.

Page 84
"He's gone commander," the medic announced. His rune-remote flashed briefly as it recorded a diagnostic.

"Exhaustion, loss of blood, shock."
The "transmitter" presumably also has diagnostic functions. Also note that "exhuastion" and "loss of blood" (and the shock following it would seem) account for his death rather than the burns.

Page 84
The Commander pored over the holographic battle array, glow lights dimmed along the line as regiments failed to answer their call sign. Green arcs of Ork controlled territory thrust deep into the Imperial lines, while blue and white lines of defence broke into indistinct fragments.
Holographic battle map. The implication here seems to be that it is receiving data fed from other sources (the regiments involved, as well as the Orks) suggesting some sort of observation/surveillance of both sides. Real time battle data, perhaps?

Page 88
On the other hand, the hive worlds of the Imperium are so densely urbanised that some are completely covered by structures, teh entire planetary surface sheathed in a man-made cocooon of metal and plascrete.
Some of the Hive worlds (at least the major ones) are distinctly Coruscant-like and "desnely urbanised" - this implies that they either have continent-spanning sturctures, or either that the planest have no oceans.

Assuming a population density of 100 or so per square km (not that "dense" really) and assume only 10% of the surface is inhabited, you're still (arguably) getting hundreds of tirllions - quadrillions of individuals for an Earthlike planet.

Page 91
Generally speaking, buildings in the Imeprium are made of solid timber, stone, concrete or plascrete, depending on local conditions. Administratum and other official buildings are made of steel, plasteel or rockcrete. Only bunkers and other purpose-built fortifications are constructed from armaplas, ceramite, or adamantium.[
A commentary on Imperium construction techniques and the materials used. Note that bunkers and "purpose built" fortifications tend to use what we may consider "durable" armor-like materials.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-03-16 02:57am

Skipping ahead to 2nd edition again.. the sisters of Battle Codex. We hear so very little about them officially that its worth commenting on this simply to get some ideas and details out there (and there are other relevant details I'd like to share, anyhow)

Page 4
The secrets of the Vault of Origins are imparted only to the most high-ranking officials of the Ecclesiarchy. Even the Inquisition are denied access to the burial chamber of history, lest they destroy the Ministorum's glorious past in their quest for knowledge and truth.
Even the Ministorum can, in some ways, deny the authority of the Inquisition (just as the Space Marines, Navigators, and AdMech can sometimes do so.)

Page 5
At the venerable age of 120, Faticus died
I believe it was indicated that the dude in question had not had rejuvenation or any life-extending tech, so we can conclude it IS technically possible for people to live to a very old age naturally (but most people don't, and hence rely on rejuventation.) Maybe its warp magic. :P

PAge 5
The Adeptus Ministorum split the Imperium into areas called dioceses, each led by a Cardinal who controlled the Missionaries and Preachers of hundreds of worlds.
Dioceses are roughly (in scope) the size of a Sector or so (though sectors can vary in size from as few as fifty to many hundreds.) Dark HEresy notes there are "hundreds of thousands" of Dioceses in the Imperium, which together is suggestive of tens of millions of worlds in the Imperium. Presumably the bulk of those are minor worlds/outpusts or coloniesm rather than all of them being major/significant worlds (IE lesser hive worlds, industrial worlds, etc.)

On the other hand, the book later mentions there being "Several thousand" Cardinals, which would suggest that each diocese controls maybe 500 or so worlds assuming the "million world" Imperium. How one rationalizes the Dark Heresy stuff (or other references to "large millions" of worlds) is a matter of personal opinion of course, ,but I'm still stickign with what I said above. Since this is also 2nd edition, we may infer that there were fewer Cardinals and worlds back in that era (and chronologically this occured some time in the past prior to the "current" millenium)

(And just so we forestall the arguments.. I am not denying that a million "proper" Imperial worlds exist, any more than I deny that a "million world" Empire exists. Its just that if all those other planets do exist, they probably don't acknowledge them as important for various reasoms. And that goes for both Empires, the same logics apply both ways.)

Page 8
Separated from the Administratum, the Ecclesiarchy began to form its own fleet of interstellar ships and armies. The Frateris Templars, as these forces came to be known, numbered many commercial transports and warships, and dozens of fighting armies each of which rivaled an Imperial Guard regiment in strength.
The Minisotum prior to Vandire's rule had a significant combined-arms force, including its own space fleet (military and commercial) as well as groupd troops. If there were turly only "dozens" of armies and they were of only regimental strength, this means that the forces of the Ecclesarichy would have been rather small (Tens or hundrds of thousands at low end, ,maybe low millions at best.) so its likely not a precise estimate (any more than the esitmate of their being "billions" of Guardsmen in the IG)

Page 10
Using the orbital batteries of Jhanna to melt the planet's ice caps, drowning nearly four billion people in the resultant floods.
Assumign the planet is roughly earthlike going by wikipedia and here we can estimate by area/volume that there is probably (if my math is right) around 8e19 kg of ice on EArth. I'm presuming that he's not using "icec caps" literally, but to refer to all the polar ice on the planet.

from SD.net (the old asteroid calcs) the specific heat of ice is 2.1 kj/(kg*K), melting point is 273K, and latent heat of fushion is 335 kj/kg. Going by average temperatures (averaging also between summe rand winter) in Antarctica (a value of 235K) we can figure it takes about 420 kilojoules per kilogram to melt the ice. The total energgy input from the orbital batteries would be 3e25 joules. Unfortunately we dont know how many defense guns or how long it took (other than presumably a short time and didnt include torpedoes) but it gives us a broad benchmark for the kinds of firepower they can unleash (and that ship to ship engagements involve), particularily since inefficiencies will increase the number.

PAge 10
..Vandire ordered a ship to prepare immediately...

...

With an entourage of nearly a hundred thousand servants and soldiers...
Vandire had a ship that can carry 100,000 folks as a personal vessel. Not unknown to exist, as we know trasport vessels exist that can carry tens of thousands of guardsmen.



PAge 11
Whole swathes of the population were eradicated by genetically attuned viruses which picked out particular traits which did not conform to the Divine Army's image of a human being.
The Divine ARmy was a sect that gained control on the Hive World of Lastrati. Its interesting to note they have control/access to such weaponry, ,as other sources (such as Tactica Imperialis) have mentioned such virus weaponry before. This would suggest its not too terribly "exotic" or "rare" by Imperial standards.

Page 11
However, Vandire's insantiy was ever directed outwards, and though distant planets boasted mile-high spires and cathedrals, the Terran palace itself was allowed ot fall into decay once more.
Mile high constructions are not unusual on Imperial worlds. At least the importtnat buildings, one assumes.

Also note some sourcese do indicate that starships are as big as cathedrals, so this gives us a useful benchmark on vessel sizes.

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-03-25 02:57am

More from the Sisters of Battle Codex (2nd edition, I believe)

Page 16
each of the dioceses was broken down into smaller areas.

..

Each Cardinal had less personal power and controlled fewer worlds and resources.
Much like other Arms of the Imperium, the Ecclessiarchy was downsized while its numbers/s cope expanded to reduce the possibility of future revolt (though, as this indicates, they can still command significant resources and worlds.)

Page 29
There are millions of Preachers throughout the Imperium.
"millions" is probably an understatement, but its a good lower limit and maybe could establish ratios (IE 1 preacher per 1000 maybe lol)

Page 33
Each diocese contains a number of Schola Progenium habitats where the orphans are gathered together. Headed by an abbot, the Preachers of the habitat educate the young in a variety of studies, including religious education.

By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone a pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations.
As we know, the Schola Progenum produce Sororitas, Commisars, Inquisitors, Assassins, Storm troopers, Naval officers, as well as Administratum employees. This not only produces (presumably) much more highly educated people in the Imperium (A g ood many) it also creates a fairly sizable pool of individuals highly loyal ot the Imperium (more loyal than to their home planet) which can be a nice way to help ensure the loyalty of individual worlds, particularily since many of those invididuals would hold imporrtant positions in the Imperium or planetary governments.

Page 34
There are several thousand Cardinals, each one responsible for a separate diocese in the Imperium.[//quote]

As I noted beofre, there are "hundreds" of worlds in a diocese, and that in this instance tis implies that there are hundreds of thousands of worlds if we conservativley estimated it. OF course canonically There is supposed to be a million worlds, so we can automatically rase that to say, 400-500 worlds per Dicoese. Higher numbers would suggest more than a million (which is hinted at by other sources) but probably not the really high ones of Dark Heresy or Ragnar's Claw or other sources.

That said, this assumes you take the "million world" figure completely and absolutely literally, which is problematic, because the figure gets repeated constnatly in every novel in every timeframe/era - there's no possible way the Imperium could LITERALLY maintain a million worlds consistently - it would flucutuate between higher and lower numbers as time went on - just as populations, armies, ,and whatnot would.

Of course, fluctuation does not prove the higher numbers would be automatically correct either (IE tens of millions) but its worth noting the higher figures are harder to reconcile with lower ones, than fitting the lower ones in with the higher ones is. Its a kludge either way, but some kludges work beter than others.

Page 35
There are three other major Orders of the Adepta Sororitas [aside from the Orders Militant] and many others numbering perhaps only a hundred or so individuals each.
There are three major Orders aside from the Sisters of Battle and other less numerous minor orders (presumably highly specialized ones.)
I don't recall them being named, but they probably are the Famulous, the Dialogus, and the hospitallers. Assuming, of course, they didnt retcon it and increase the number of orders (They've done that I believe)

Page 35
When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command.

...

With recruits passing through the hands of the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grgew to over 10,000 fighters..

...

And the Convent buildings were extended to accomdodate almost 15,000 warriors each.

In recent years the number of the Militant ORders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as SEraphim.

...

The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of hte Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed.
Various commentaries on the size and numbers of the Sororitas, and that they (likely like all arms of the Imperium's military) flucutate with time. Thousands to tens of thousands seems common, given above, probably closer to 100,000.

The ratio between Seraphim and regular battle sisters is interesting, suggesting between 1 and 4 and one in eight are Seraphim, assuming that held constant (it probably doesn't.)

Another good question is whether or not there are Sororitas who are part of the ORders Militant who perhaps don't wear power armour. We've seen Sororitias who fight and are armed but don't wear power armour, ,so its possible. (Its also possible that all Sororitias to some degree or another are trained to fight, and may form some sorrt of "reserve" or "militia" in crucial times.)

There's also the possibility the number of the Orders militant is grossly underestimated. Given the roles the Sororitas are used for you seem to expect to get at least couple dozen to a couple hundred scattered over a sector (individual squads deployed to protect important shrines, or at Sector bases like the ones servicing the Navy, or Ministorum worlds, or whatever.) nevermidn thsoe assigned to escort duty, fighting in wars, or whatever. And, as we learn later, serving at the whim of the Ordo Hereticus (meaning you'd want at least some per Sector) Which suggests the numbers should probably be closer to higher tens or even hundreds of thousands, putting them closer in numbers to the Astartes. It may even be possible (with multi-million number of planets at least) that they match or exceed the Astartes (which would go ot offset the qualitative inferiority and complenent the AStartes own limited numbers.)

Hell we know in "Cain's Last Stand" that the Schola there had severeal suits of power armour for training purposes alone, nevermind actual combat, and even after its liberation I don't remember Perlia being considered a vital/important world in the scope of things (And given the shadowlight they wouldn't want it to be would they/)

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-04-05 09:07pm

Time to finish up SoB... here we go...

Page 35
The Orders Hospitaller accompany the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy to provide nursing and medical support.
...

Not only do the Orders Hospitaller provide surgeons, physicians and nurses, they also provide other types of care and perform deeds of deep compassion.

...

The Orders Hospitaller aid the poor and under-priveleged, founding hostels and shelters for the needy.

...

The Orders Hospitaller work closely with the Missionarus Galaxia to provide clinics and hospitals on newly discovered worlds...
The ORders Hospitaller and their various duties/activities. Note that this doesn't *sound* all that primtiive or grimdark or brutal, but then again you had nurses and medical supporrt in the 1800-1900s too. At least its not middle ages style cures depicted in some cases But there is a chairt yorganization and clinics and hospitals of some kind at least - knowing hte Imperium the tech levels probably vary from world to world.

This also promotes and reinforcecs the importancec and power of the Ministorum, as they have a big hand in keeping people healthy (or not.)

Also the Missionarus Galaxia (gee wonder where they pulled that from - I'm being rhetorical so you dont have to answer, I know its from Dune)

Page 36
Speech and Language are the specialty of the Orders Dialogus.

..

While there are branches of the Adeptus Terra dedicated to the study of all languages, the ORders Dialogus use their talents in a practical fashion.

...

When a Missioanry finds a new civilisation, a Sister from the Dialogus will be assigned to help him learn the native language and communicate with the newly discovered people. The Dialogus accompany the Navy and Imperial Guard, tranlating the orders of the high command into the patois and languages of the common soldiers. The Orders Dialogus are also skilled negotiators and often work within the Adeptus Terra to aid discussion between organisation and individuals.
The Orders Dialogus. Not only are they useful and loyal, but their loyalty to the Ministorum means they can learn of things (and to a degree limit or censor the information people get - the Sororitas are very loyal after all) and thus it serves an important intel function as well.

Page 36
Members of the Order Famulous are dedicated to the organisation of households. THey serve the nobles and Imperial Commanders of the Imperium as advisors and chatelaines. They run the noble families' affairs and direct their businesses. In this way, the Ecclesiarchy maintains a fiarly tight control over the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. The Famulous maintain their own strict lifestyle and strive to control the excesses of those they are assigned to. They arrange marriages and agreements betwene the noble families, quelling long-term fueds and disputes and settling matters tha tmight otherwise jeopardise the stability of the area.
Again, they serve an important (for the well off) function in Imperial society, but their position also gives them (and thus the Ministorum and the Imperium as a whole) a great deal of power and influence - which is directly stated here. In extreme cases (The novel Crossfiire) they even will actually overthrow a noble or leader who represents a danger ot the Imperial Cult or the Imperium itself.

Page 36
With members in envery aspect of society, the Sisterhood can maintain a close eye on the affairs of the Imperium. The Orders Famulous report on the activities of the Noble Houses, the Orders Dialogus can inform their seniors of the deals and agreements binding the Imperium together and the Orders Hospitaller witness many things unseen outside their wards. All of this makes the Adepta Sorirtas a useful political as well as social tool, and with the armed might of the Orders Militant, the Sisterhood as the protection and power it needs to operate succesfully.
Again, we see that the Sororitas serve both an intel and a security function for the Imperium (and more particularily the Ministorum).

Page 36
The Frateris militia have no formal connection to the Ecclesiarchy other than they follow the Imperial Creed and thus do not break the provisions of the Decree Passive. Frateris Militia can be formed in a variety of ways and for varying lengths of time.

...

In desperate situations, the Deacons, Deans and other functionaries may even be armed from the secret vaults in the Imperial Shrines.

....

The strength of their faith is laudable, but the vast seething masses are hard to control and many innocents are slain when the Frateris Militia storm a rebel citadel or assault a heretic cult. If the official armies of the War on Faith are defeated and scattered, the Militia loses its focus and usually rapidly disbands into a collection of roving hordes, pillaging and wantonly slaughtering hte locals. The Frateris clergy is wary of raising a Frateris Militia and do so only in times of great need.
Despite not being allowed to formally have a military of men, this does allow the Ministorum to have a military of a sorts if need be (even if a low quality one, but by and large its probably no worse than what Chaos throws at them.) And they aren't controlled easily (so they can easily turn to looters) but in an emergency they probably can greatly bolster a planetary defense force.with the stockpiled weapons. In the greater scheme of things its unlikely that other branches of the Imperium are unaware of this fact, but allow it to pass because it doesnt threaten the status quo (greatly) and it provides useful cannon fodder in times of crisis.

Page 37
Sin comes in many forms [for Redemptionists]: drinking, gambling, lying, cheating, ,profanity, lechery, fornication (especially thinking about fornication) and interfering with the good work of the Redemptionists.
Ah, the Redemptionists. From their humble days in Necromunda to the versions showing up in Dark Heresy.
I found this part particularily funny and a good parody.

Page 40
and [Fenris's populace] made to cut down the huge trees of Fenris' forests to provide fuel for fires and the versatile engines of the Imperial Guard tanks..
Not sure if this is the "Fenris" of the Space Wolves or not, but probably not. That isn't why I quoted it, its the bit of "firewood for Imperial Guard" tanks - our friend the "vegetative processor" strikes again - you really CAN run the thing on anything. Its probably safe to say you could run it on electric (if they have power cells for multi-Gj lasguns, metlas, and whatever, they can run a tank), if you had enough batteries, nevermind any other kinds.

Page 41
Finally, Methalor, the closest system to Gathalamor fell, its principal hive destroyed by a raging inferno started by the inhnabitants overloading its geo-thermal power grid.
I'm wondienrg how they might have accomplished it. It might provide an idea as to calcing if it did.,

Page 42
It was a speech from him that had so incensed the population of Resto Primis they overloaded the geo-thermal power network, cracking apart the planet's continents with a wave of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes.
Again, I'm wondering how they did that. I'm not even sure that thats what would happen if you "overloaded" a network. Then again I suppose it depends entirely on how it works. It would suggest fairly high power outputs though (high TT/low Petaton at least) What they use that power for.. no clue. Defense and maybe construction.

Page 45
Before a battle, members of the Ecclesiarchy perform various ceremonies for the soldiers, asking for the Emperor's guidance and protection. They lead the faifhtul in prayer, dedicating their souls to the undying emperor. By means of these special ceremonies they can instill their followers with an unshakable faith in the Emperor, driving them on to even higher acts of bravery or determination and strenghtening people's minds against the perils of enemy psykers.
This is an interesting passage for several reasons. On one hand it suggests some sorrt of visualization/self hypnosis kind of effect, "augmenting" abilities. The bit about strengthening the minds against psyskers is also an itneresting one, as it can suggest that people's minds can be trained (to a degree) to resist psychic influences without psychic ability. Inquisitiors had various means to do this of course, ,and the AStartes do as well, b ut the common man was never believed to before.

On the other hand its also possible this has some connection or result from the latent psychic capability of humanity and its inherent connection to the Warp. As I've postulated before, its quite likely that the whole "Imperial Cult" thing is a subtler, weaker version of the Ork "WAAAGH" effect - that manyy so called "Miracles" (minor ones at least) are due to some sort of individual or collective unconscious psychic feat. Its possible this amy be more directly influenced or utilized through other foci (say relics, or a particularily charismatic leader, like Saint Sabbat - we see this phenomenon more than once in the Ghosts series, anyhow) as well as prayer. While out of universe we know alot of the whole "religious" stuff (especially all the litanies and stuff either promulgated by the ministorum or the AdMech) is deliberately meant to be humorous and a parody, in-universe it may have some tangible effect. Its not neccesarily a reliable, or consistent, or even major effect, but it coudl still be there.

It also probably bolsters/feeds power directly to the Emperor, via belief (the same way Ork belief strengthens thier gods, and the Chaos gods are strengthened by the belief/worship of their followers.)

Page 46
Investigating [a factory] more closely, they discovered old databanks dating back to the Dark Age of Technology.

...

In return for the material support of Mars, ,the Ministorum would turn over the factory to the FAbricator General's investigators. In addition, the Ministorum laid exclusive claim to any new technologies that were discovered by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

This contract has proved invaluable to the Adeptus Ministorum over the millenia, providing them with supplies of weaponry and allowing them to arm and armour the Adepta Sororitas to the highest standards. The only new designs to be culled from the ancient factory were some half-complete files detailing a flame-thrower ank.
More examplkes of the politics and dealmakings of the Imperium. This particular one seems to be an explanation of how Sisters of Battle have Power armor and bolters.

Page 46
Later on, the ADeptus Mechanicus also developed the more sophisticated [than the Immolator] Imperial Guard hellhound from its [factory's] finds but the source of its design has been kept secret frrom the Ecclesiarchy.
I quoted this because it was amusing to think that Imperial Guard tech might be considered "more" sophisitcated than someone else (Even though in my mind a Chimera is better than a Rhino).

Its also worth noting the AdMech DO modify or adapt stuff from their so called "holy designs" to other vehicles for enhanceement or producing new vehicles (another being the Macharius tank, the counterfeit baneblades, the second generation vanquishers) so long as they are the ones allowed to do it. (Witness how they've reacted ot other chapters of AStartes, ,for example, designing their own vehicles or making variants without AdMech oversight or approval.) Also we get further confirmation about how underhanded the AdMech is (They'll keep to contracts only as far as they need to)


Page 47
The Immoaltor opened fire and gouts of flame poured over the wall, lapping round the shattered windows to engulf the whole squad.

The Immoaltor rolled onwards, crushing the charred bodies of the Eldar beneath its steel tracks.
Single blast of an immolator tank leaves "charred bodies" of eldar - a whole suqad. At a gues sprobably triple digit MJ at least (say 40-50 MJ per body, and 10 bodies.. 400-500 mj)

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by andrewgpaul » 2009-04-06 03:28pm

Regarding the "geothermal energy network", Necromunda's hives are powered by hundred-metre-wide pipes running stright down the centre of the hive into the mantle of the planet.
"So you want to live on a planet?"
"No. I think I'd find it a bit small and wierd."
"Aren't they dangerous? Don't they get hit by stuff?"

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Re: 40K 1st/2nd edition misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-04-07 03:53am

Runnign some rough calcs It might be what they did was overload whatever capacitors or energy-storage medium they use (suck up alot of energy from the mantle and then blow them violently.)

Running a rough calc (most of the mantle is iron, nd it makes up well over half the planet's mass, and an average temp of the aforementioned mantle) there *could* be enough energy to do it. Though I wouldnt want to rely solely on geothermal power for offensive/defensive purposes (total energy in the e30 joule range for an Earthlike planet...)

If the capacitors or whatever the storag emedium is were also buried, then it probably could cause massive cratering/fracturing (earthquakes) as if it were a buried explosive.

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