B5 Tech Question

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Balrog
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B5 Tech Question

Post by Balrog »

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Is it ever explained the kind of sensors Earth was using when it fought against the Minbari? Was there something that they could've done to defeat Minbar Stealth (i.e. LIDAR) but just didn't have/use?
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Post by Ender »

They could have used telescopes or IR as good passive sensors. I suppose they might have needed active targeting to hit them, but I can't imagine why.
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Post by Balrog »

Ender wrote:They could have used telescopes or IR as good passive sensors. I suppose they might have needed active targeting to hit them, but I can't imagine why.
I believe JMS does say that EF ships were able to hit the Minbari with visual targeting, but my question was directed more at the active sensors that they used.
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Post by Ted C »

There aren't any real specifics on EarthForce sensors, but they're hardly the only ones stymied by Minbari stealth technology. Lennier flew a Minbari fighter right up to a Centauri warcruiser, clamped onto its hull, and siphoned air out of it without being detected.

Basically, you could look at them through a simple optical sight and try to hit them, but B5 ship battles actually do frequently take place at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers. At those distances, with both ships maneuvering, manual targeting will have a crappy success rate. EarthForce did what damage it could by getting to point-blank range, something they didn't manage too often against the superior firepower of the Minbari.
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Post by Ender »

Ted C wrote:There aren't any real specifics on EarthForce sensors, but they're hardly the only ones stymied by Minbari stealth technology. Lennier flew a Minbari fighter right up to a Centauri warcruiser, clamped onto its hull, and siphoned air out of it without being detected.

Basically, you could look at them through a simple optical sight and try to hit them, but B5 ship battles actually do frequently take place at ranges of hundreds or thousands of kilometers. At those distances, with both ships maneuvering, manual targeting will have a crappy success rate. EarthForce did what damage it could by getting to point-blank range, something they didn't manage too often against the superior firepower of the Minbari.
You can have automated targeting with passive sensors though. heat seeking missiles and HARMs for example.
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Post by Ted C »

Ender wrote:You can have automated targeting with passive sensors though. heat seeking missiles and HARMs for example.
I don't pretend to understand how Minbari stealth technology works, but it apparently copes with those kinds of guidance systems pretty easily.
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Post by Skylon »

Ted C wrote:There aren't any real specifics on EarthForce sensors, but they're hardly the only ones stymied by Minbari stealth technology. Lennier flew a Minbari fighter right up to a Centauri warcruiser, clamped onto its hull, and siphoned air out of it without being detected.
I'd totally forgotten that. You'd think someone would have noticed the pressure drop considering how long Lennier was clamped on.

I always imagined Minbari stealth to be some kind of electronic jamming or interference to the enemy sensors. It evidently is a system that can be switched on and off (not something physical in the hull design), as one episode's plot hinged on the fact that for some reason B5 was able to track Minbari fighters without a problem (the Minbari wanted to be tracked and destroyed).
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Post by Ted C »

Skylon wrote:I always imagined Minbari stealth to be some kind of electronic jamming or interference to the enemy sensors. It evidently is a system that can be switched on and off (not something physical in the hull design), as one episode's plot hinged on the fact that for some reason B5 was able to track Minbari fighters without a problem (the Minbari wanted to be tracked and destroyed).
I figure it's a combination of materials/configuration and active interference, since the effect varies depending on the circumstances. When Lennier engaged "full stealth" mode, he was able to sneak up on Centauri ships without a problem. On other occasions, sensors would pick up silhouettes, and in the big CF of "In the Beginning", they could plainly see the Minbari fleet and that its gunports were open.

So it seems that active systems play a role, and those can be adjusted anywhere from "this is empty space: move along" to "look at all these guns!"
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

It may not just be the sensors, but it could also be the tracking systems tied to the heavy weapons. Remember that Minbari sensors and stuff tended to disrupt EA equipment physically (the electronics I think).

Furthermore, we've seen that alot of the EA heavy weapons tended to be either large bulky turrets or fixed axis weapons (The beams at least) and that's going to hamper targeting rather severely (they'll be harder to track than smaller/more mobile weapons.) And the big pulse weapons probably dont have the range to hit. And smaller guns, while they probably could track or hit better, may not inflict enough raw damage to threaten the Minbari before big ships are destroyed.

Moreover, the effect of energy weaponry tends to degrade over range (numerous examples, such as LEgend of the Rangers) which is yet AGAIN likely to favor the Minbari.

To be quite blunt, the problem has never been that EA can't DETECT the Minbari (They can, even ITB showed this with the "stealth" stuff activated) - they just had no ability to actually HIT them in a way to cause damage unless they were close up.
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Post by andrewgpaul »

I think In the Beginning implied that the Minbari jammer effect was tied to their sensor arrays; their sensors seemed to use much more energy than anyone else, which interfered with the EA computers. The screen you saw on the bridge of the ship which encountered the Grey Council's fleet turned to static during the time they were scanned, and the energy interfered with the jump engines. IIRC, the Lexington was firing 'blind' (i.e. at a predicted location of the Minbari based on their previous sensor contacts).

The Lexington didn't seem to have any problems damaging the Minbari cruiser (a larger-than-normal version, at that) with the few shots that hit.

It looked more like active interference of the EA electronics rather than invisibility to sensors. I'm not sure how this ties in with Lennier piggy-backing a Vorchan in S5, right enough. Perhaps hyperspace does funny things to Centauri sensors?
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Post by NecronLord »

Skylon wrote:I'd totally forgotten that. You'd think someone would have noticed the pressure drop considering how long Lennier was clamped on.
What pressure drop? His own ship had air, no? Wouldn't he just suck air out of their ship, and pass useless air into it in return?

Presumably there may have been a drop to notice after he'd disconnected; but by the time they worked out it wasn't a micrometeroid, he'd be gone.
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Post by Batman »

Even if he DIDN'T pass his unbreathable air back into the Centauri cruiser, given the volume difference between his Nial and the cruiser there's not going to be all that much of a pressure drop to begin with. :D
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Post by Balrog »

andrewgpaul wrote:I think In the Beginning implied that the Minbari jammer effect was tied to their sensor arrays; their sensors seemed to use much more energy than anyone else, which interfered with the EA computers.
No, Minbari sensors knocked out their jump engines, but everything else seemed to be working. As others have pointed out the Minbari stealth is an active system; in Points of Departure they turn it off so B5's targeting computers can lock on to their ships.
Connor MacLeod wrote: Furthermore, we've seen that alot of the EA heavy weapons tended to be either large bulky turrets or fixed axis weapons (The beams at least) and that's going to hamper targeting rather severely (they'll be harder to track than smaller/more mobile weapons.) And the big pulse weapons probably dont have the range to hit. And smaller guns, while they probably could track or hit better, may not inflict enough raw damage to threaten the Minbari before big ships are destroyed.
We've seen that their beams are able to fire off-axis though, so I don't think that'll impact it too much, and even the large pulse weapons have been used to devastating effect on fighters in No Surrender, No Retreat.
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Post by Coalition »

Skylon wrote:
Ted C wrote:There aren't any real specifics on EarthForce sensors, but they're hardly the only ones stymied by Minbari stealth technology. Lennier flew a Minbari fighter right up to a Centauri warcruiser, clamped onto its hull, and siphoned air out of it without being detected.
I'd totally forgotten that. You'd think someone would have noticed the pressure drop considering how long Lennier was clamped on.
Assuming there was anyone on board, quite likely. Otherwise, the fighter just pumps out more CO2 into the ship, and takes on board fresh O2. I'd wonder about the power supplies though, to maintain that level of atmosphere exchange for the time required.
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Post by Darksider »

weren't the Centauri ships used to raid shipping lanes being controlled by shadow tech pod thingies?

Maybe they don't monitor atmosphere, since they don't need it.
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Post by Skylon »

Darksider wrote:weren't the Centauri ships used to raid shipping lanes being controlled by shadow tech pod thingies?

Maybe they don't monitor atmosphere, since they don't need it.
Fair point. There probably wasn't anyone aboard.
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Post by Ted C »

Skylon wrote:
Darksider wrote:weren't the Centauri ships used to raid shipping lanes being controlled by shadow tech pod thingies?

Maybe they don't monitor atmosphere, since they don't need it.
Fair point. There probably wasn't anyone aboard.
Lennier couldn't have known that, though, and he still didn't seem to be concerned about the possibility of drawing attention to himself. Besides that, the very fact that Minbari fighters are equipped to clamp onto the hulls of ships and siphon air tells us that stealing air from the enemy without being detected is a design feature.
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Post by Jade Falcon »

andrewgpaul wrote:The Lexington didn't seem to have any problems damaging the Minbari cruiser (a larger-than-normal version, at that) with the few shots that hit.

It looked more like active interference of the EA electronics rather than invisibility to sensors. I'm not sure how this ties in with Lennier piggy-backing a Vorchan in S5, right enough. Perhaps hyperspace does funny things to Centauri sensors?
Wasn't that the Prometheus that did that, the Lexington was the vessel where Sheridan was XO and it didn't get a chance to fire at the Black Star.
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Post by Anguirus »

I think the Minbari are supposed to have both stealth technology (perhaps a sort of pseudo-cloaking device that distorts emissions and deflects active scanning?) along with their uber-sensors. AFAIK they are not the same technology.

So Dukhat's ship wasn't "stealthed" but they accidentally fried the Prometheus' scanners, and they just fired at the Minbari's last known position. But, they weren't able to replicate that feat later because the Minbari would have stealth systems on and be maneuvering in order to not get hit. It seems like the Earthers only had any success in visual-range fighter combat with Starfuries, including suicide runs.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

They didn't just jam the Prometheus scanners, they disabled the jump drives too.
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Post by Jade Falcon »

Uraniun235 wrote:They didn't just jam the Prometheus scanners, they disabled the jump drives too.
I get the feeling that wasn't an intentional effect, more of an unfortunate side effect.
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Post by Ted C »

When the Prometheus ran into the Grey Council's fleet, the Minbari stealth systems had to be off. The Minbari opened their gunports specifically so that the human fleet would be able to see them; it would make no sense to open the gunports to show off the weapons if you're also using stealth technology to hide your ship from scans.

As for the interference with the jump engines, the probably was unintentional. The Minbari were probably actively scanning the Earth fleet as intensely as possible, trying to find out what they could, and didn't realize how their active scans would affect the EarthForce systems.
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