Challenging Spocktard to a debate

[PainRack]

Also, please point out how that armor is chewed off by measly .50 machine gun fire, and a squad of space marines would be capable of probably chewing through to internals with auto-fire.

See HERE for Tanksharp of the Leman Russ, in all it's glory. It's got Inertial Dampners on a tank famed for how BASIC it is. It's got the equivalent of over a meter of RHA on it's front and apparently, sides are almost as good. Old shepy was a little conservative with his estimates here.

For god sake, will that .50 calibre finally just die? that brainbug is even fucking worse than Rvalencia Yavin Forest fire crap.
We had a SINGLE .50 calibre description based on a Machine Gun JEEP. All other MGs as described in the fluff are 20-30mm autocannons.

[Azazal]

Also, please point out how that armor is chewed off by measly .50 machine gun fire, and a squad of space marines would be capable of probably chewing through to internals with auto-fire.

See HERE for Tanksharp of the Leman Russ, in all it's glory. It's got Inertial Dampners on a tank famed for how BASIC it is. It's got the equivalent of over a meter of RHA on it's front and apparently, sides are almost as good. Old shepy was a little conservative with his estimates here.

For god sake, will that .50 calibre finally just die? that brainbug is even fucking worse than Rvalencia Yavin Forest fire crap.
We had a SINGLE .50 calibre description based on a Machine Gun JEEP. All other MGs as described in the fluff are 20-30mm autocannons.

hey hey, so can this be brought up in the debate, please.

We can safe assume that BT MG is roughly on par with a heavy bolter in 40K, both are meant as anti-infantry/light vehicle weapons. In BT, th MG and small laser do roughly the same amount of damage, yes there is goignt o be a difference in the mechanics of damage, but in the grand scheme they are pretty parallel, correct? But by Spocktard's "math" the land raider, which can laugh off shots from a heavy bolter, is in serious danger from a BT small laser.... huh?

Also, where did he get 2 GJ for a lascannon shot, I know it was from his ass, but does he show any evidence anywhere?

[loomer]

From Imperial Armour Volume 3, I present the following. I'm no good with calcs, so maybe Connor can help there.

These are against the Tau, the most BT-ish foe available for these.

...The lead Hammerhead was immediately hit by lascannon fire and exploded in a blossoming orange fireball...

...A Krak missile destroyed a Broadside battlesuit...

A hammerhead has an unknown amount of 'nano-crystalline alloy' armour, weighs 24 tonnes, with Length/Width/Height of 8.25m, 6.8m, 4.1m.

A Broadside suit has an unknown amount of 'nano-crystalline alloy' armour, and weighs 3.8 tonnes, with a height of 2.8m, length of 1.7 m and width of 1.9m.

...He was quickly joined by two of his comrades. Igis activated the his melta-bombs (5 max) and slapped the magnetic disk to the turret... as the others placed their charges and rolled away...

...a triple explosion that turned the hydra turret into an inferno. Molten metal sprayed the compartment within, killing the remaining crew before igniting the ammunition store. Fragments of the gun turret were thrown into the air as it was ripped apart from the inside.

Destruction of a Hydra flak turret by Meltabombs. Turret has 100MM (min, this is if pulled off of a vehicle rather than integrated) of unspecified armour, and contains 900 rounds (again, if unfired and pulled off a vehicle) of ammuniton - 600 autocannon, 300 heavy bolter.


I'll put up some more after sleep.

[PainRack]

hey hey, so can this be brought up in the debate, please.

We can safe assume that BT MG is roughly on par with a heavy bolter in 40K, both are meant as anti-infantry/light vehicle weapons.

The Heavy bolter has better AP capabilities since it can reliably penetrate SM armour.
However, the ROF simply isn't comparable.

This ploy failed, and in the central marketplace of the city of Edo the crowd actually attempted to seize control of two vehicles, prompting the crew to open fire. In less than a minute the tanks killed nearly five hundred people, escalating the situation to the extent that the Jaguar commander declared the situation insoluble and razed the city from orbit.

TRO 3060, Indra. A single Indra has 4 MGs.
Using game mechanics, the MG can kill up to 24 people every ten seconds, and max burst suggest an ROF of 4800 rounds per second.(Using the AMS+ MG game mechanic).

Frankly, the only MGs that's used in an anti-mech role other than Solaris is the Piranha. And that's secondary, using hit and run tactics. The Heavy Bolter has superior AP and depending on how you play with Btech canon, superior range(as per novels>>> Game rules for Wh40k). The only advantage is that the BT MG has a higher max ROF, which isn't used tactically.[/u]

[Ender]

Wow, I forgot how those guys try to substitute words for intelligence.

[Connor MacLeod]

Guess I should send him the Inferno diagram of a Russ that show the speeds as 70 kph road and 55 fro field. And where does he get the turn slow crap from?

Really? I'd like to see that.

[Azazal]

Guess I should send him the Inferno diagram of a Russ that show the speeds as 70 kph road and 55 fro field. And where does he get the turn slow crap from?

Really? I'd like to see that.

No prob, I'll try to get scan up later tonight

[Connor MacLeod]

Guess I should send him the Inferno diagram of a Russ that show the speeds as 70 kph road and 55 fro field. And where does he get the turn slow crap from?

Really? I'd like to see that.

No prob, I'll try to get scan up later tonight

Sweet. That'd help with the other evidence I have that a Russ can move faster. I'll say more later

edit: sufficed to say, its worth noting Thanatos had a theory he mentioned to me long ago that Russes were probably heavily governed so that their top speed was drastically reduced. That diagram would in fact suggest it is true.

(The only other diagram I've seen for a russ is in Chapter Approved, and it had a 29 kph top speed, which again suggests it can vary.)

[Peptuck]

Really? I'd like to see that.

No prob, I'll try to get scan up later tonight

Sweet. That'd help with the other evidence I have that a Russ can move faster. I'll say more later

edit: sufficed to say, its worth noting Thanatos had a theory he mentioned to me long ago that Russes were probably heavily governed so that their top speed was drastically reduced. That diagram would in fact suggest it is true.

(The only other diagram I've seen for a russ is in Chapter Approved, and it had a 29 kph top speed, which again suggests it can vary.)

Remember, Russ speed may also depend on whatever they're using to fuel it. I suspect we'd get different top speeds with Russes that are gassed up by nuclear reactor fuel as opposed to ones being powered by wood.

[consequences]

Also, please point out how that armor is chewed off by measly .50 machine gun fire, and a squad of space marines would be capable of probably chewing through to internals with auto-fire.

For god sake, will that .50 calibre finally just die? that brainbug is even fucking worse than Rvalencia Yavin Forest fire crap.
We had a SINGLE .50 calibre description based on a Machine Gun JEEP. All other MGs as described in the fluff are 20-30mm autocannons.

Three. There's also the unnamed VTOL which mounts a 12.7 mm gatling, and Shin Yodama's P-hawk in Lethal Heritage.

[Azazal]

Sweet. That'd help with the other evidence I have that a Russ can move faster. I'll say more later

edit: sufficed to say, its worth noting Thanatos had a theory he mentioned to me long ago that Russes were probably heavily governed so that their top speed was drastically reduced. That diagram would in fact suggest it is true.

(The only other diagram I've seen for a russ is in Chapter Approved, and it had a 29 kph top speed, which again suggests it can vary.)

OK, found my stuff and 2 thing make me say damnit, 1st, scanner took a dump so I took pics with the camera, not the greatest, but they should work. 2nd, was thinking Russ for the speeds, but the numbers were for the Chimera, see pics.

[PainRack]

Three. There's also the unnamed VTOL which mounts a 12.7 mm gatling, and Shin Yodama's P-hawk in Lethal Heritage.

I did forget about the P-Hawk, however, the VTOL was using a door mounted MG, something that no conventional vehicle has. Again, suggesting this is the portable MG from infantry weapons, not mech based.

The only other game fluff evidence for MGs being .50 calibre or smaller is the Elemental SMG/MG.

[Tasoth]

If you really want to skew the numbers in your favor, site the event that happened in one of the novels. I can't remember which one it was from, but Connor analyzed it. It was actually a scene where two characters have fallen into some considerable body of water and shot at each other with laspistols while submerged over a short distance. From what I remember, the resulting energy output was horrifically high in order to allow for that effect.

[legio mortis]

If you really want to skew the numbers in your favor, site the event that happened in one of the novels. I can't remember which one it was from, but Connor analyzed it. It was actually a scene where two characters have fallen into some considerable body of water and shot at each other with laspistols while submerged over a short distance. From what I remember, the resulting energy output was horrifically high in order to allow for that effect.

I actually think that it was a scene from the first or the second Ghosts book where troops are accidentally dropped in an ocean.

[Connor MacLeod]

If you really want to skew the numbers in your favor, site the event that happened in one of the novels. I can't remember which one it was from, but Connor analyzed it. It was actually a scene where two characters have fallen into some considerable body of water and shot at each other with laspistols while submerged over a short distance. From what I remember, the resulting energy output was horrifically high in order to allow for that effect.

ghostmaker. Caffran's short story, when he fell into the ocean. There's also the metla demon in First and only that got melted by short-term lasgun fire, and the ocean vaporizing/fish detonation by a civilian laspistol in Eye of Terror.

I can think of alot of them.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay.. Azazel thanks for the scans, those are beautiful.

I've also gotten ahold of a copy of the 5th ed. rules so I may look through that eventually (if I ever get time) but I have to say there are things about that that make me giggle.

The real fun thing is the Plasma guns in the sponsons. The "power outputs" rating lists the Plasma generator as 4.2 kilotherms.

A therm is a (non-SI) unit of power equivalent to 100,000 BTU. A BTU is about 1.06 kilojoules, so you're getting about 106 MJ per therm.

4200 Therms comes out to ~445 gigajoules.

Conservatively, we might assume thats' total energy capacity. But even assuming say, 100 shots per gun, you're getting several GJ per shot for the plasma gun, which is bloody insane.

Now, the generous and literal way to interpret that is that that is "per shot" not total energy, and that the demolishers sponsons are chucking out triple digit gigajoule bursts. Hencec, teh giggling.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh, and while I may sound ungrateful, could you explain what the text above "Targeting and warning systems" says? I can see parts of the text ("revolutions, full charrge and hours, good for") and it sounds vaugely quantitative.

I also like the plasma guns having a range of 1500 meters, the lascannon having a range of 2 km, and the Demolisher having a 1 km range (makes sense, its a close up combat tank and it probably is direct-fire range)

The fact that tanks have laser rangefinders and night sights is also interesting (as is the "laser warning system")

Oh, and demolishers have an autoloader/shell ejection system.


Mind as wlel that these Demolishers are quite heavier than a standard russ (70 tons as opposed to 60)

[loomer]

Make sure you specify what world the Guardsmen are from, and what specific chapters the Marines are hailing from.

IA1:

Earthshakers mounted on platforms are sometimes issued with charges 6 and 7, in an attempt to increase this range.

Again, IA3.

...hypersonic passage of each round heated the air so it seemed to fizz and crackle. The speed was such that infantry men stood too close would find the air sucked from their lungs as it passed overhead...

...With void shields flaring against railgun hits...

(After the shields are overloaded by a missile barrage)
...With devastating power two hypersonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel... (The Warhound Titan was destroyed by these two rounds.)

Some detail on Railgun shots - How fast is the minimum speed to attain temperature to heat the air to 'fizzing' point, or create enough of a pressure difference to suck the air out of men's lungs?

Also proof that the void shields are capable of taking at least more damage than the actual hull and armour plating.


IA5:

...They captured an entrance to a personnel shelter and, after a melta gun had blasted the steel door into molten metal...

Melta gun 'blasts' a bunker's steel door, probably several centimetres thick.

Autogun of of an 'Agripinaa pattern, Type III' specified. Single/Semi/full automatic modes, long 8.25 caliber round (I assume it means 8.25mm looking at the illustration and considering the sheer size of an 8.25 inch round.), full auto firing rate of 650RPM. Muzzle velocity is 820 metres/ps. 20/30 round magazine, anti-recoil measures (weight at the front of the grip to prevent the force raising the barrel as far)..

It's basically an FN FAL, both in the drawing's appearance and in the performance statistics. We can assume a longer accurate range in wind due to the heavier caliber, but with less total range due to bullet drop. Since some Guard regiments use autoguns, this might be useful.

...The leading tank (presumably a Leman Russ, possibly a Chimera. Man-portable Lascannon (From a space marine) erupted into flames as a well aimed lascannon shot tore through its front armour...

Leman Russ's armour plating is 200MM for the turret, 180 superstructure, 150 hull, 100 gun mantlet. Total weight is 60 tonnes, with a height/width/length of 7.08/4.86/4.42 M. At a lowest limit, we also have to consider that the Russ was not destroyed completely (with the crew remaining alive long enough to get out and run around screaming as fire slowly burnt them alive), and may have had 40 battle cannon rounds and 600 heavy bolter rounds.

...the impacts of an assault cannon sent arkos staggering backwards...

Space Marine power armour (unspecified, presumably standard/artificer) is not penetrated by repeated shots from an assault cannon. From IA4, the assault cannon fires a 'fixed cartridge round with a dense metallic core covered in a non metallic sheath with a diamantine tip for armour penetration.' The cartridge is small but accurate at short ranges.

[Dark Hellion]

IIRC From the old Compendium from Rogue Trader days Assault Cannons also fire hundreds of rounds per second, and is primarily designed for destroying vehicular targets. I believe this passage has been carried over, but I don't know/remember where. White Dwarf maybe? From when they made the AssCan the best gun in the game.

[loomer]

I remember that as well, and according to IA5 - 'Driven by an internal motor, the assault cannon pour out thousands of shells'. A specific timeframe isn't specified, but if we were to assume a similar ROF to a moden version (M134 maximum), 100-200 rounds per second would be quite reasonable.

Eve assuming 50% miss rates, a second's fire would be anywhere from 50-100 armour piercing rounds, bouncing off of a suit of regular power armour (confirmed later in the book.)

[white_rabbit]

Oh yay, you've found the Logan Lubera cross sections!

Awesome, go find the Basilisk one!

[Peptuck]

As an aside, I just noticed the Chimeras can be equipped with blocks of reactive armor. That'll go a ways toward settling an argument that popped up on /tg/ some time back on whether the Imperium used that or not.

[consequences]

Three. There's also the unnamed VTOL which mounts a 12.7 mm gatling, and Shin Yodama's P-hawk in Lethal Heritage.

I did forget about the P-Hawk, however, the VTOL was using a door mounted MG, something that no conventional vehicle has. Again, suggesting this is the portable MG from infantry weapons, not mech based.

The only other game fluff evidence for MGs being .50 calibre or smaller is the Elemental SMG/MG.

It's a 12.7mm gatling on the vtol man. There's no way in hell one of those is even remotely portable on the infantry level, and calling even a normal .50 cal a portable infantry weapon is fairly ridiculous.

You might be able to get away with calling it a vehicle/mech LMG, but even that's pushing it.

[loomer]

From Codex: Orks (4E)

...The hunched metal giant stooped over them. There was a high pitched whine followed by a tremendous roar as plasma erupted from its fist. Ushbek watched entranced as it turned the remaining Evil Sunz into steam...

Unknown, 80 foot titan turns an unknown number of orks to steam, presumably by boiling the liquids contained within them.

Codex: CSM (4E)

...With a blinding blast Kharn fired his pistol, its incandescent shot smashing a hole through Thiron's chest and hurling him backwards onto the cathedral steps...

...Bolts from Horkal's pistol sparked from the Betrayer's armour, leaving small craters in the blood red ceramite

Plasma pistol's blast is initially 'blindingly' bright and incandescent, and can punch through a fully armoured CSM. Kharn's Power armour is some protection against bolt pistols.

...a Land Raider ground forwards, pulverising the corpses of both sides beneath its tracks. Its red and black livery was scored with damage from lascannon blasts and shell holes, but the metallic beast advanced without difficulty.

Proof a Land Raider can survive multiple lascannon shots.

[Azazal]

Oh, and while I may sound ungrateful, could you explain what the text above "Targeting and warning systems" says? I can see parts of the text ("revolutions, full charrge and hours, good for") and it sounds vaugely quantitative.

No prob, going from memeory and let me confirm this tonight after work as we can now see that my memory is for poop. It goes something like the las-cannon battery can be charged from totally dead to battle ready in 2 hours and that it provides an hour's worth of usage under normal battle conditions.

Oh yay, you've found the Logan Lubera cross sections!

Awesome, go find the Basilisk one!

Alas these are the only 2 I have.