[WH 40K] Significance of the Gene Seed?

[Cykeisme]

To Connor, regarding the lack of security surrounding Hydra Cordatus:

Fact is, the facility was very poorly defended and exposed.
Now, perhaps the problem isn't with the effect the loss would have on the Imperium, but there's still the problem about the massive military boost that Chaos would get from capturing it. It's practically a one-stop shop for any aspiring Daemon Prince-to-be. This is exactly what happened.

Admittedly the traitor stopped the Telepathica Astropaths from sending out a proper distress message, whereupon assistance might have arrived in time, but even then it would still too easy for the Iron Warriors. We can paint circumtance as being on the Iron Warriors' side, but what if the Imperial Fist strike cruiser didn't just happen to be passing by the system?

Fortunately most of the captured gene it was destroyed later on, but this doesn't excuse how easily it was captured. It would have been far more expedient to put the facility on a better defended world in the first place.
Even when considering the need for secrecy, the facility could easily have been built on an uninhabited world in a star system well within Segmentum Solar, instead of on the Dark Gods' doorstep.


Falkenhayn, there was in fact a Chapter created by the Adeptus Mechanicus without the approval of the Administratum, probably to "test the waters" so to speak.
Needless to say, the Inquisition found out about it, and there would have been hell to pay for the AdMech faction responsible for it, but ultimately after Inquisitorial review the Chapter was allowed to continue its service as a normal sanctioned Space Marine Chapter.
I actually read about it on Lexicanum rather than the primary source, but iirc the article was properly referenced. I just can't remember the name of the Chapter :p

[Falkenhayn]

The Mechanics of the Daemonculaba are found on pg 246-7 of Dead Sky, Black Sun.

Mention is made of the Geneseed from Hydra Cordatus, page 13 makes a reference to "stable gene seed without mutation", which is quite a commodity in the Eye. It's not a necessity, but its like the difference between Heavy Crude and Light Sweet in terms of the quality of the product the Daemonculaba produce, and the amount of waste in terms of hopelessly mutated psychotic adolescents vs useable aspirants.

Fresh, crushed corpses are force fed to the daemonculaba and their "children" in order to sustain them, including dead Iron Warriors. No mention is made of weather their geneseed is harvested before processing. The Daemonculaba clone Uriel during the process of creating one of their aspirants, and he had been only briefly stitched up inside one as a means of execution (he would be purposely over-mutated). So they've got some pretty effective means of absorbing genetic material, and it may have been a function of Uriel's "stable" geneseed.

[Falkenhayn]

Falkenhayn, there was in fact a Chapter created by the Adeptus Mechanicus without the approval of the Administratum, probably to "test the waters" so to speak.
Needless to say, the Inquisition found out about it, and there would have been hell to pay for the AdMech faction responsible for it, but ultimately after Inquisitorial review the Chapter was allowed to continue its service as a normal sanctioned Space Marine Chapter.
I actually read about it on Lexicanum rather than the primary source, but iirc the article was properly referenced. I just can't remember the name of the Chapter :p

Well bugger me, I'd never read about it. Can you dig it up?

[Karrick]

How many books are there dealing with Honsou and his Iron Warriors? I read Storm of Iron, but I don't recall anything about this daemonculaba business. Is that an unrelated book?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

How many books are there dealing with Honsou and his Iron Warriors? I read Storm of Iron, but I don't recall anything about this daemonculaba business. Is that an unrelated book?

The third Ultramarine book involving Uriel Ventris deals with Honsou and the destruction of his fortress, along with most of his forces. You could find it in the Ultramarines Omnibus. I'm not sure if the 4th book also involves him, because I have yet to read it as well (It's still in hardcover, and I would rather either wait for the paperback or the next Omnibus.)

[Bedlam]

Beyond the need for new Space Marines, I remember reading that Perturabo sacrificed 400 Imperial Fists' gene seed for his ascension to Daemon Prince. Then I remember reading that Housou of the Iron Hands gave some of the captured gene seed to Abaddon as a kind of peace offering. Is there a significance beyond the use of gene seed to make new space marines? I don't get why the sacrifice of that much gene seed would warrant an ascension, unless gene seed is an incredibly nice dish to the Chaos Gods.

There are perhaps some other reasons for the significance of Gene Seed, and that largely stems from continuity. I believe that each Marine's Gene Seed incorporates elements of his own DNA, so that in essence part of the Space Marine himself survives in the Gene Seed (presumably the good qualities.) and these (I think) get passed on to successive generations. So geneseed taken from a fallen Space Marine is prboably considered more "experiencecd" or better "quality" than something grown from scratch (as it were.)

The other aspect stems from the above - recall that many people (including the Astartes themseles) tend to view that "continuity" with near-religious significance - much the same way they view their equipment such as power armour in fact (veteran power armour suits, even if rebuilt, are conisdered sacred or important.) The same is probably true of Gene Seed. Thus, the gene seed of someone important (Say, Commander Dante if he falls) would probably be considered very important, and its recovery especially significant (or its loss particularily telling.)

]The second part is probably the far liklier of the two, as it can be true even if the gene seed does not confer any "experienced based" benefits from absorbing the host's genetics.

While I'd think it would make sense for each marine to have a certain lineage through the gene seed I cant think of any instance when this has been mentioned by a Marine and I'd think it would be a big pride thing if any of the marine's DNA was carried on through the gene seed i.e. Marines would be introducing themselves as Brother Mathias, Scion of Comander Thull and through him Bother Bob, Sargent Joe, etc, etc.

[[R_H]]

To Connor, regarding the lack of security surrounding Hydra Cordatus:

Fact is, the facility was very poorly defended and exposed.
Now, perhaps the problem isn't with the effect the loss would have on the Imperium, but there's still the problem about the massive military boost that Chaos would get from capturing it. It's practically a one-stop shop for any aspiring Daemon Prince-to-be. This is exactly what happened.

Admittedly the traitor stopped the Telepathica Astropaths from sending out a proper distress message, whereupon assistance might have arrived in time, but even then it would still too easy for the Iron Warriors. We can paint circumtance as being on the Iron Warriors' side, but what if the Imperial Fist strike cruiser didn't just happen to be passing by the system?

And the IG regiment was also slowly being poisoned by the "medication" they were taking. In Dead Sky, Black Sun one of the surviving IG (an officer) was dying of cancer caused by the pills he, and the rest of the troops, had been taking on Hydra Cordatus.

[Zablorg]

Five percent of all geneseed is tithed to Mars, where the Mechanicus implant it in surgically crippled people who are used as hosts to grow more geneseed. This guarantees getting two more geneseed from every host, meaning the Mechanicus have a stockpile of geneseed with which to found new chapters or assist the recovery of decimated ones.

Is five percent meaning a small chunk of each seed, or five percent of all seeds?

Because if it was the former that would indicate to me that they could be divided up to 20 at most, and that would make functional space marines. Or like, retarded ones.

[Black Admiral]

On the setup of the geneseed facility from SToI; it will be a lot easier to understand if you look at it from a different perspective.

That perspective being that the Adeptus Mechanicus are a bunch of lunatic spanner jockeys. They don't do things because they make sense, they do them because they can; as I recall they virus-bombed Hydra Cordatus for the express purpose of creating an uninhabited planet to stick their geneseed storage facility (when finding one would've probably been easier).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

On the setup of the geneseed facility from SToI; it will be a lot easier to understand if you look at it from a different perspective.

That perspective being that the Adeptus Mechanicus are a bunch of lunatic spanner jockeys. They don't do things because they make sense, they do them because they can; as I recall they virus-bombed Hydra Cordatus for the express purpose of creating an uninhabited planet to stick their geneseed storage facility (when finding one would've probably been easier).

They like to play with fate, do they? So do heads roll from this? Or will they continue their usual yabbering?

[Black Admiral]

They like to play with fate, do they?

Nothing quite that deep; the coggies just like to screw about with stuff that they really ought to leave alone, or go in for intrigue and scheming just for the hell of it.

So do heads roll from this? Or will they continue their usual yabbering?

Since they destroyed all the evidence and the one survivor (Gdsmn Hawke) had no clue about the existence of the geneseed labs, the coggies get off scot-free for that one.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

They like to play with fate, do they?

Nothing quite that deep; the coggies just like to screw about with stuff that they really ought to leave alone, or go in for intrigue and scheming just for the hell of it.

So do heads roll from this? Or will they continue their usual yabbering?

Since they destroyed all the evidence and the one survivor (Gdsmn Hawke) had no clue about the existence of the geneseed labs, the coggies get off scot-free for that one.

You mean even the Inquisition didn't smell anything of this? What happens when Uriel Ventris (if he does return) gets back with that lengthy report?

[[R_H]]

Is five percent meaning a small chunk of each seed, or five percent of all seeds?

Because if it was the former that would indicate to me that they could be divided up to 20 at most, and that would make functional space marines. Or like, retarded ones.

Five percent of all seeds. I doubt a gene-seed is like a liver and can regenerate. How does the tithe work, do some marines just get one of the progeneoid glands removed and sent to the storage facility?

[Lord Revan]

It pretty much so IIRC and part that stored seed, gets sent to Mars.

by the way correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't (to a analogy) the gene seed be like a really slowly maturing plant that bears fruit only when fully mature and those "fruits" are the new marines?

[Lancer]

You mean even the Inquisition didn't smell anything of this? What happens when Uriel Ventris (if he does return) gets back with that lengthy report?

How would Ventris know where the Geneseed came from? He's not telepathic, and Honsou didn't exactly stand there and outline the history of his grand plan like some Bond villain for him.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You mean even the Inquisition didn't smell anything of this? What happens when Uriel Ventris (if he does return) gets back with that lengthy report?

How would Ventris know where the Geneseed came from? He's not telepathic, and Honsou didn't exactly stand there and outline the history of his grand plan like some Bond villain for him.

Erm, there happened to be 2 Imperial Guardsmen if I am not wrong, who survived the destruction of the fortress who ended up as slaves on the Iron Warrior world in the Eye of Terror.

[[R_H]]

A quick question about Iron Warriors, which of the Chaos gods do they worship, or do they worship Chaos Undivided? In Storm of Iron, Honsou states that Kroeger and his merry band are becoming beserkers, but what about the rest of the Iron Warriors?

[white_rabbit]

A quick question about Iron Warriors, which of the Chaos gods do they worship, or do they worship Chaos Undivided? In Storm of Iron, Honsou states that Kroeger and his merry band are becoming beserkers, but what about the rest of the Iron Warriors?

Traditionally, Iron Warriors were associated with Khorne, Khornate "engineers" and cultists produce the most varied and powerful daemon-engines, siege guns etcs. Epic had the Iron warriors being fond of the Cannons of khorne as I recall.

They were never a purely khornate legion, ala the World Eaters, and as it stands now, they are in the same situation as most legions, broken up into lots of seperate warbands and armies, loosely affiliated, occasionally united to a greater or lesser extent, with various individuals going their own way.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Traditionally, Iron Warriors were associated with Khorne, Khornate "engineers" and cultists produce the most varied and powerful daemon-engines, siege guns etcs. Epic had the Iron warriors being fond of the Cannons of khorne as I recall.

I remember those cannons being mentioned in the Ultramarines novel. Do they just fire huge chunks of chaos energised rocks or chaos energy?

[[R_H]]

Traditionally, Iron Warriors were associated with Khorne, Khornate "engineers" and cultists produce the most varied and powerful daemon-engines, siege guns etcs. Epic had the Iron warriors being fond of the Cannons of khorne as I recall.

I remember those cannons being mentioned in the Ultramarines novel. Do they just fire huge chunks of chaos energised rocks or chaos energy?

In Storm of Iron, the daemon possessed cannons fire explosive shells, no mention if the shells are out of the ordinary.

ON THE MORNING of the eleventh day of the siege, Forrix's batteries were complete and the giant guns of the Iron Warriors
were either dragged forwards by gangs of sweating slaves or rumbled along under their own diabolical power. Within minutes of the observers on the walls of Tor Christo spotting the movement of the giant artillery pieces, the Imperial Basilisks began firing, the endless barrage of shells turning the ground before the fortress into a hell of fire and shrapnel.
But the deepened and widened trenches were proof against all but direct hits, and only two machines were destroyed, their crews and those manhandling them shredded by lethal steel splinters. One massive gun, an ornate long-barrelled howitzer, was struck a glancing impact by a shell bursting directly overhead. Imbued with the bound energy of a daemon from the warp, the war machine screamed in lunatic fury, breaking free of its sorcerous bindings and running amok in the communication trench, crushing the four score slaves who pulled it and the guards who watched over it.
It took the combined efforts of Jharek Kelmaur, seven of his cabal sorcerers and the souls of a hundred slaves to placate the daemon, but soon, the gun was in its prepared position before the walls of Tor Christo.
The gunners on the walls attempted to shift their fire to the two batteries, realising that the chances of damaging the war machines traversing the trenches were slim, but Forrix had placed his batteries well and the Basilisks could not land their shells so close to the promontory.
It took another three deafening hours before Forrix was happy with the placement of his guns and the slaves shackled the daemonic war machines to the steel plates laid on the floor of the batteries.
At last, several hours after the sun had passed its zenith, Forrix gave the order to fire.
THE FIRST SHELLS smashed into the south-eastern face of Kane bastion, throwing the men stationed on its walls to the ground. The rockcrete cracked under the impact, fist-sized chunks of grey rubble blasted skyward in a cloud of choking dust. It was followed seconds later by a volley from the second battery, smashing into the opposite face of the bastion.
This second volley was aimed high, blasting the top of the firing step clear in a storm of stone fragments that scythed men down by the dozen.
.
.
.
The noise was unbelievable. Major Tedeski knew that he would never forget the sheer, skull-pounding volume of the enemy bombardment. Each battery took it in turns to fire, the massive guns hurling explosive projectiles at his walls with incredible force.

[white_rabbit]

I remember those cannons being mentioned in the Ultramarines novel. Do they just fire huge chunks of chaos energised rocks or chaos energy?

The original cannon of khorne model is basically a giant bombard plucked out of earths history, but made out of "magic" brass and steel/whatever, which fires horrible gouts of daemonic energy.

This was basically the MO of most of the Khornate daemon engines, they fire giant sprays of molten metal, daemon ichor, or explosive shells with massive shrapnel bursts etc. There was one that was essentially a superheavy tank with four huge mortars, one that was a Bloodthirster of khorne rendered in metal, on two giant wheels, etc.

Index Astartes notes that despite the vast amounts of hardware the IW haul around, they are rarely short of ammo, and simply looking at the models and imagery of most of these things means that they are unlikely to use conventional ammo, if they do need ammo at all.

Defilers certainly have no provision for ammo storage or reloads, and probably just magic it into existence, its probably one of the chief benefits of binding a daemon into a war engine, you don't have to bother with an engine, fuel or whatever, just make sure you throw some slaves in front of its wheels, or feed them to it every now and again.

[Cykeisme]

A quick question about Iron Warriors, which of the Chaos gods do they worship, or do they worship Chaos Undivided? In Storm of Iron, Honsou states that Kroeger and his merry band are becoming beserkers, but what about the rest of the Iron Warriors?

Traditionally, Iron Warriors were associated with Khorne, Khornate "engineers" and cultists produce the most varied and powerful daemon-engines, siege guns etcs. Epic had the Iron warriors being fond of the Cannons of khorne as I recall.

They were never a purely khornate legion, ala the World Eaters, and as it stands now, they are in the same situation as most legions, broken up into lots of seperate warbands and armies, loosely affiliated, occasionally united to a greater or lesser extent, with various individuals going their own way.

Unlike many other legions (particularly the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Death Guard), the Iron Warriors don't really worship Chaos per se; it's oft stated that they view Chaos simply as another tool to be used in their endless campaign of vengeance against the Imperium for the Emperor's perceived wrongs against them. Of course, since their goals are in line with those of the Ruinous Powers, they get along famously anyway.

That said, as White Rabbit explained, it's mainly Khornate daemons that they use, seeing as how their possessed war engines are all killy machines of bloody death-dealing.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I never fully understood why and how the Iron Warriors would hate Rogal Dorn and did what they did during and before the Horus Heresy. All this vengeance against the abandonment of the God Emperor never made much sense.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I'm not sure if the 4th book also involves him,

Nope. No Honsou in it at all.

[darthbob88]

I never fully understood why and how the Iron Warriors would hate Rogal Dorn and did what they did during and before the Horus Heresy. All this vengeance against the abandonment of the God Emperor never made much sense.

Dorn, apparently, had bragged about the quality of the fortifications on Holy Terra, to the effect that not even Perturabo and his Iron Warriors could break it. Perturabo's a proud bastard, and he did not take this challenge/slight well. Between that, the blood and sweat that come with siege warfare, and the Iron Warriors getting ground down for garrisons, Perturabo was not in the best spirits when his homeworld revolted. After he finished putting it down, 5 million people were dead, and the rest were sold into slavery. When he came to his senses afterwards, he realized the Emperor would never forgive him his errors, and between that and the daemon weapon Horus had given him, he sided with Horus.

Lexicanum