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Connor MacLeod
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Cykeisme wrote:The damage effect tables for Tyranid ship-creatures in Battlefleet Gothic actually provide a couple of clues toward this, actually.

The Critical Hit tables have an effect for "Discharge vents wounded". whereby it simply states that one of the "biological valves" that manoevre the ship is crippled due to enemy attack.
Based on the effect of the damage, these vents appear to be more for effecting changes in orientation, rather than thrusting for acceleration. Plus we still haven't the slightest clue as to the nature of what exactly is being vented, anyway.
Its still moe than we have for any other evidence. I could believe warp wank reactionless drive, but I can't think of anything (other than some repulsor analogue which may not work away from planets.) So reaction thrusters it probably is.

Knowing the Tyranids they probably have some anal sphincters that shoot out relatavistic streams of gasses or some oter solid. (yes I know what I'm suggesting, but its 40K and you can figure they have relatavistic sphincters.)
Meanwhile, on the Catastrophic Damage table, there's a possibility that the carcass of the ship may experience a "Bio-plasma detonation".
Plasma is a bit of an over-used sci-fi term, to the point where we have no choice but to assume the fictional universe defines the term differently, especially since "bio-plasma" would in any other case refer to inert solvent fluids in a creature's body or somesuch.
Yes, but looking at that table, they rather obviously hint at "bio plasma" being some form of blood stuff, or some technobabble plasma (as I recall this stuff works like the super-soaker "plasma" guns.) I mean hell, it mentions muscle contractions, bleeding wounds, etc. The "bio plasma" stuff mentions its arteries rupturing.

I figure th ebio plasma is just more technobabble 40K warpwank for the tYranids, rather than being th e"plasma" we know of usually.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

This next installment comes from the 2005 Tyranids Codex.

Page 3
"Now!" shouted Facruthriel, and a hundred times a hundred razor-edge shruiken scythed into the chitinous bodies of their pursuers.
Eldar grav bikes (1 squad, minus at least one) firing on Eldar grav bikes, and gives an indication of rate of fire.

PAge 6
The Planet Tyran was an ADeptus Mechanicus way-station studying the virtually unknown sectors at the edge of the galaxy. Because of its isolation, the base was well protected and boasted an Astropathic choir for communication with Holy Terra, over 60,000 light years away.
Gives range of an AdMech astropathic choir.

Page 6
In ancient surveys, these particular planets had been logged as supporting life, but more recent Explorator scans and expeditions reported them to be barren airless rocks.

...

As time passed the Technomagi found that even worlds that were known to have thriving ecosystems had been transformed into barren planetoids.

...

The planets in question had supported no sentient life forms and lay thousands of light years from the nearest human-colonised systems.
Planets attacked by Tyranids are left "barren, airless" rocks

Page 6
Inquisitor Kryptman received word of the last message from Tyran months after the attack. By the time his ship reached the Tyran system almost a year had passed and at first he could not equate the dead, barren planet he found to ocean-bound Tyran.
The "message" from Tyran is received "months" after the last attack, and it takes a "year" nearly for him to arrive. Depending on where the message went (thousands or tens of thousands of light years) the atropathic mesage traveled at an approximate velocity tens or hundrdeds of thousands of times c. The speed of travel is somewhat slower - thousands or tens of thousands of times c.

The planet is also described as "barren", which suggests its ocean was removed.

Page 9
Crippled ultramarines ships which Calgar had left in orbit above hurled bolts of ruby flame and megatons of explosive death upon the Tyranids, but still they came on.
Ultramarines ships "crippled" can still fire multimegaton payloads onto Tyranids, and it doesn't do much to stop them. So much for nuclear spamming a Tyranid attack.

Page 16
When one hive fleet fights another no resources are expended whatsoever. Infighting of this kind, usually taking place upon the surface of the planet, is the perfect way to determine which of the two hive fleets has the stronger component parrts.

...

Then, as with all victims of the Tyranids, their bodies are rendered down and absorbed by the bio-ships of the victor.
Tyranids will fight one another for the purposes of having the stronger absorb the DNA of teh weaker, and then evolve nwer/better forms from the remaining biomass.

Page 20
His plan was that a band of worlds should be evacuated across the path of Leviathan's main advance, with many of them razed to the ground in order to deny the hive fleet any further raw materials for its ships. This would slow is advance long enough for Battlefleets Solar and Tempestus to muster. Any worlds already under invasion within the bounds of this cordon were to undergo Exterminatus just at the poitn when the Tyranids descended to feed upon the doomed populace. Kryptman theorised that in this manner the swarms would expend great resource to claim a world, only to have every living thing upon it reduced to ash by barrages of cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs.
Kryptmans plan to halt the Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan. Denying the Tyranids "resourcees" requires removing both the atmosphere and the oceans, a feat which would require e27-e29 joules of energy to accomplish (mainly due to the oceans) per world.

Rendering Extemrinatus on the world via cyclonics or virus bombing would probably require superheating the atmosphere to incienration elvel temperatures (1500K) - at least e24-e25 joules. Incinerating a planet's worth of biomass (considering what the Tyranids can use, including oceans) probably requires more akin to e27-e28 joules at least.

We don't know how many ships are conducting it (although probably less than a full battlefleet given the numbe rof worlds to cover) or how long it takes (either rapidly by most means, ,IE cycloincs, or hours by more conventional), but even by more broad definitions we're probalby still talking teraton range regardless.

Page 21
Using their ship's teleporter array, the Deathwatch then sent megatons of high-grade explosives into the heart of a nearby moon, Gheist. The resultant explosion not only destroyed the moon, but also diverted the passing space hulk's course deep into the empire of the Orks of Octavius.
Oddly, the mention of "psychoportive weaponry" is mentioned in the first Soul Drinkers novel, this may actually represent one example. Its also a much more valid tactic for them than it is for,s ay, Trek. (most universes couldn't expect their defenses to stop em.)

We also dont know whether "megatons" refers to yield, or the quantity of explosive, nor the size of the moon. If its at least the size of one of Mar's moons, we might expect at least a couple gigatons. If its larger, well.. the yield will be larger. Given that it diverted a passing space hulk (via debris impact) we might conjecture the thing is quite large.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Here, we get to some more stuff relating to the tactical/strategic situation between Imperium and Tyranids. I like this mainly because of how it relates to us the Imperium's warfighting capability, and (to an extent) puts all other threats (and the whole "Galaxy at War" atittude) in real perspective.

Also, if you didn't get enough of me mentionin Tyranids surviving Exterimnauts or jus thow hard they would be to nuke-spam, here's yet more conclusive proof. Also, more on the "biomass denial" trick Kryptmann was ostracized for. Poor Kryptman.


Page 26
To summarise, our strategy in this regard has been the doctrine of 'Biomass Denial'. A Tyranid hive fleet must expend a staggering amount of energy in taking one of our worlds provided our forces are able to mount an effective defence. Frequently, we have been able to draw the hive fleet into committing ever increasing reserves of energy into taking the world, at which point, we attempt to withdraw the bulk of our forces, ,and deny the hive fleet its price, by way of enacting Exterminatus upon the target world. This has the effect of critically draining the hive fleet's resourcecs, as it has no biomass with which to replenish the energy expended in taking the world."
Here we see the Anti-Tyranid tactic defined as "Biomass denial" One assumes that by energy they mean "effort", since a Hive fleet usually recovers mass from most planets, not energy. (we dont knwo where they get energy, but its presumably from the warp like most biowank.) Though this may imply some sort of "matter/energy" conversion as well.


Page 26
It is becoming apparent that such a strategy will in the long run prove too costly, for the Imperium does not have an endless number of worlds that can be sacrificed in such a manner. With our worlds spread so thinly across the void, each one lost is irreeplacable.
Note that in the codex, the timeframes between hive fleet attacks has varied between 2 millenia (Colossus), to 1 millenia (Tiamet to Ouroborus), to 250 years (Behemoth to Kraken) to only a few years (Kraken to Leviathan, ~4 years)

I'm not too sure in what context one might deem this tactic infeasbile in the long run at least at the current way the Tyranids attack. The Imperium is always adding new worlds - dozens if not hundreds, as well as losing worlds to other things. Losing/gaining worlds is a fact of life for the Imperium, and even on the scale of destruction this Hive Fleet required, its not a major loss (The Imperium has suffered worse.) Especially since you can expect years at LEAST (if not decades) between hive fleet attacks (unless they continue to get faster or more numerous.)

Another way to look at it is to consider Guard regiments and colonisation. "Successful" regiments are commonly utilized in conquering and colonizing new planets. With at least "millions" (if not billions") of regiments, even a small fraction should yield many thousands of Guard regiments that parrticipate in such efforts every generation (if not less) That means scores of worlds added each year (again, minimum) not incluiding other explorator fleets, Space Marine and Rogue tRader conquest/colonisation, rediscovere/reclaimed planets already inhabited by h umans, etc. In a fashion, they CAN afford it, although they may have to be selective in the kind of world they lose (Some places may have more than just a habitable planet to lose - precious resourcecs, technology, etc.) While others are so old/established their loss might be more tangibly felt (A Forge World or really old Hive World like Necromunda or Armageddon, for example)

Loss of precious resourcecs/technology, however iwll hav eno influence on the vaibility of the tactic with regard to timeframe - losing them now or losing them in the long run, they're still lost.

This all also only remains true so long as the Tyranid pattern of attacks remain fairly constant. IF they decide to launch dozens of Hive Fleets on simultaneous attacks, for example, "biomass denial" would become far less effective.

Page 26
Reports have reached the Strategic Collective of a number of instances in which Tyranid bio-forms have, against all previous precedent, survived the Exterminatus of a world targeted by them.
Well, so much for biomass denial. Note that some of those methods (IE cyclonic bombardment) can correlate to a nuclear attack, so we yet again see that nuclear attacks against Tyranids are not nearly as effective as some assume (At least, against hte larget forms.)

Page 27
There are two reported methods by which Tyranid creatures have survived the destruction of a world. The first, which has been confirmed at Tethris and Caelus Delta and is suspected at Lamarno, is achieved by way of smaller bio-forms, such as Rippers, burrowing deep beneath a world's crust, there to enter a state of hibernation until such time as the presence of life upon the surface is detected.

....

The second observed manner in which Tyranid organisms have survived Exterminatus was reported to the Strategic Collecive following a Deathwatch mission to the world of Ariadne V. Following exterminatus by way of Damnatus-pattern, mass-yield cyclonic saturation, the surface of the world was reduced to drifting ash, the amotsphere entirely seared away. Yet pict-logs of the mission show what was at first believed to be a natural rock formation rising out of the s wirling dust storms. Closer inspection revealed the truth - the structure was in fact a member of the Carnifex genus, which had survived the cataclysmic effects of the cyclonic torpedo, and entered a state of dormancy within which it could mend the grievous wounds done to it. The moment the creature detected their presence and began to stir, the Killteam called down a melta torpedo strike from their cruiser in orbit. Though the beast was destroyed, Ariadne V is declared Perdita, for, if one such bio-form can survive, then how many more may go undetected.

These examples have interesting implications.The first suggests that some forms of Exterminatus are only a "surface" extermination. That is they can be expected to eliminate all forms of life on the surface of a planet, at least up to a certain depth. But that such bombardments do not, as a rule reach deep into the crust, and so may be avoided by certain cases. (logically, this suggests hundreds of meter,s, since we know the Imperium can bury bunkers and defenses, ,esp planetary defenses, this deep for protective reasons.) From this we may conjecutre there are other kinds of "deeper" penetrating Exterminatus, such as conventional (lance, battery, torpeod) bombardment which will. (It also suggests that you can expect sucah bombardment to melt/pulverize the crust up to at least a kilometer or so in depth, possibly more, ,be it Tyranid infestation or not. Which in turn suggests the energy requirements for exterminatus extend well into the e26-27 joule range)

THe second example is frmo a cyclonic bombardment, with the result of superheating the atmosphere (and cremating all life on the surface) as well as blowing said atmosphere off (E25-2e26 joule range) delivered by a single (or small volley) of torpedoe(s) from a single strike cruiser. And yet, a Carnifex survived, whcih establishes (Broadly) what kinds of forms we coudl expect to survive severe temperatures for an undefined period of time (which in turn tells us how resistant the Tyranids are to forms of attack such as nuclear. As if I need to further emphasize this point.) Carnifexes are larrge forms, but certainly not the largest the Tyranids have lying around./

Page 27
These instances make it clear to the Collective that no consideration should be given to re-colonisation of any world touched by the taint of the hive fleets for, even should the ultimate sanction of Exterminatus be enacted, there is sufficient cause to doubt its total effectiveness. All such worlds are to be declared Perdita, on pain of death, to any other than those authorised by this collective to step foot upon them.
In other words, any world potentially touched by the Tyranids is probably in the same boat as the ORks - you'd enver get rid of them. So the issue of whether or not biomass denial is a viable long term strategy is further irrelevant, basically. (Poor Kryptman.)

It is interesting that this implies that at least some worlds put under exterminatus can be recolonized, at least in some fashion.

Page 27
It is the belief of Strategic Intelligence Collective 827/II that current mobilisation levels will need to be increased a minimum of 500% if we are to even stand a chance of slowing the advancec of the Hive Mind. Every able-bodied man and woman on every world in Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Pacificus, and Segmentum Solar will need to be drafted into the Imperial Guard if we are to have any chance of repelling this foe.
This is an interesting quote as it pertains to the level of militarization of the Imperium. In a galaxy of WAR, when it is stated tha thte Imperium is under constant threat of annihilation, it is felt feasible (at least by this group) that the Imperium could mobilize even more troops without significant apparent disruption (At least five times more, possibly more) in 3 of its five segmentum. This does bear out with the level fo troops typically requisitioned vs PDF and planetary populations. One also presumes similar level of mobilization amongst the Navy and such (Since fighting the Tyranids is as important in space as on teh ground.)

Another way to put it is: the threats to the Imperium, while they exist and while they could do damage if they go unchecked, are probably exaggerated (for propoganda purposes - war is a teriffic unifying element.) Otheriwse, one would think, the Imperium would have already mobilized.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Last of the Tyranid stuff for now. Next up: Orks!


Page 28
Many Tyranid weapons are complex multi-species symbiotes that fire small but visicous tyranid creatures,

...

Heat sensitive, these voracitous life forms have adapted to seek out heat sources and vital areas before burrowing into their foe.
A bit of insight into Tyranid detection mechnaisms and the way their "technology" works.

Page 32
As a Tyranid ages its exoskeleton fuses. Layers of muscle, bone, and cartilage grow together to form a tough but flexible sheathing over its few vital spots.

...

The Tyranid's carapace has thickened and grown, extending over the few joints and areas that are vulnerable on the Tyranid's body.
Further elaboration on the defensive capabilitlies of the tyranids.


PAge 33
Tyranids that survive in hostile enviroments start developing thicker armour plates to compensate. Their carapace plates excrete a resinous mucus which continually hardens into ceramic-like layers with pockets of gel (dubbed "tyrgel" by xenosavants). The resultant chitin may be particularily ballistic or radiation resistant depending on opposition.
Tyranid defenses are apparently adaptable to their enviroments as well, and the formation/enhancement of their carapace and other elements.

Page 33
Another feature sometimes observed in larger Tyranids are subcutaneous excretion pits for the generation of Spore Mines. These are apparntly smybiotic organsims meshed so closely into the carpaace of their host they are impossible to separate.

...

The chimney-like vents sprouding frfom the backs of the larger Tyranids sometimes have clusters of microscopic, ,algal symbiotes around their rims that poison the air with soporific emissions.

.....

Poisons created vary widely, from agonising paraltyic neurotoxins to aggressive necrotic enzymes, all swimming with deadly Tyrannic phage cells.
Tyranid biowarfare/chemical warfare, probably.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

I'm just goign to update this one now, this time we go to Codex Orks (from the 3rd edition era of 40K, I believe). I'll probably start the next novel analysis (Necropolis) some time this weekend, other factors not involving themselves.

Anyhow.. "'ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we go.."

Codex ORks (1999 edition)

Page 2
In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth is followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another. But once in a generation an Ork leader will emerge who is powerful enough to defeat his rivals and dominate their tribes. His success will draw others and soon a great Ork Waaagh! is underway, a movement of millions; part migration, part holy Jihad as the Orks seek new worlds to conquer and races to enslave.
This suggests there are millions, perhaps billions of Ork worlds, and that they outnumber humanity significantly (and possibly the Necrons.) Also a discussion of the Ork WAAGH

Page 3
Early estimates place the attacking ground forces at the equivalent of sixteen regiments, with one hulk, four cruisers, and twenty plus attack ships supporting them from orbit.
An example of an Ork attack force and its composition, not neccecarily average.

Page 12
Ork Burnas are powerful cutting torches used in battle to melt enemy armour. When he is within distance the Burna Boy can crank open the nozzle and unleash a torrent of flame to incinerate foes, even those skulking in woods or behind walls.
Burnas seem t be part flamethrower, part blowtorch, and part melta weapon. Makes one wonder if Imperial flamers might do it (redemptionists have had similar flamers on Necromunda)

"Incinerate" foes tends to suggest burnas have a similar output to other "heavy/special"w eapons like flamers or meltas (tirple digit megajoule to gigajoule.)

Page 33
Samples taken from Ork colonies in the Paramar and Goliant Sectors, where Orks are low in density, showed a decrease in body mass of 15-19%. They were less physically aggressive (although still capable of tearing a man limb from limb if neccessary). To compensate for this reduction in stature, greater reliancee is placed on their crude technology, with ranged fighting taking greater precedence over the brutal affair of close melee. This sub-type of ork is not widely found, both due to their lack of numbers and also the fact that such developments take place in the most solitary and backwater conditions.

Conversely, Orks in greater numbers are much more likely to be fiercer in combat; more aggrgessive and short-tempered; impatient and less likely to employ ranged weaponry with any noticable effect. it appears that the greater the number of Orks present (on a global and interplanetary scale) the more the Orks' savage basic instincts prevail. Such specimens are physically larger than theri scattered counterparts, and the muscle:mass ratio of their exological makeup is greater [in other words, there is literally strength in numbers for the Orks.)
Discussion of variation on Ork capabilities. Note that even "Weak" orks are so strong as to be able to rend a person to pieces, suggesting strength many times greater than that of a human (perhaps tens of times?) Space Marines (in power armor) are even stronger thhan Orks.

It also suggest some "invisible" force (Warp based?) that Guides or manipulates Orkish physiology (As well as technology and whatnot.) PErhaps its some primtiive version of the Tyranid "Shadow in the Warp."

PAge 33
Attempts to penetrate the so-called Ork enclaves of Gathrog and Dregruk in the southern regions of the Segmentum have proven unsuccessful. The ORks have dominated these areas unchecked since before the founding of the Imperium and it is, quite reasonably, surmised that within an area of only a few light years there are tens of millions of the creatures. It is possible that in such conditions the Ork's physical proportions are evne more pronounced, with whole planetary populations the size of the sub-type known to our warrios as "Skarboyz"
Note that on the size chart (Skarboyz are "veterans") they show up as beinga round 2-2.5 meters tall and about 1.5 meters across.

if "an Area a few light years" is a diameter and we assume the ratio holds constant throughout the galaxy, assuming the orks carry oh.. half the galaxy's area.. you could litearlly get quintillions of orks. At the very least, tens or hundreds of quadrillions.

Page 34
Burnas are cutting torches used by Mekboyz for carving up vehicle wrecks into useable chunks. However, a quick twist of the mixture valve and WHOOOSH! the burna spits out a blast of incinerating flames.
Again mention of burnas, though her'e they're described as "cutting torchse", suggesting they are more of an impromptu flamer (using gas preusmably rather than liquid chemical fire..) Also note again they're capable of "incinerating"
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Post by Cykeisme »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Here we see the Anti-Tyranid tactic defined as "Biomass denial" One assumes that by energy they mean "effort", since a Hive fleet usually recovers mass from most planets, not energy. (we dont knwo where they get energy, but its presumably from the warp like most biowank.) Though this may imply some sort of "matter/energy" conversion as well.
While it is clear that the high amounts of energy generated by the Tyranid lifeforms are incompatible with the relatively smaller amounts gained by metabolizing captured biomass, the idea that energy is drawn from some warp-based source is not irreconcilable (though we delve into the realm of fictional pseudoscience, consistency can be maintained).

We know that life has a presence in the warp, and that sentient life affects it more profoundly.
Perhaps Tyranids actually gain access to their warp-sustenance by consuming entire planetloads of life. They may even prefer eating sentient organisms.
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This is an interesting quote as it pertains to the level of militarization of the Imperium. In a galaxy of WAR, when it is stated tha thte Imperium is under constant threat of annihilation, it is felt feasible (at least by this group) that the Imperium could mobilize even more troops without significant apparent disruption (At least five times more, possibly more) in 3 of its five segmentum. This does bear out with the level fo troops typically requisitioned vs PDF and planetary populations. One also presumes similar level of mobilization amongst the Navy and such (Since fighting the Tyranids is as important in space as on teh ground.)
I've highlighted the odd part here - the part you quoted suggested conscripting every able-bodied man & woman in the 3 Segmentums - which must surely qualify as "significant apparent disruption"!
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Post by andrewgpaul »

Connor suggests it can be done without disruption. The quote simply states that the Collective, whoever they are, feel it to be necessary. Not that it can be done without issues.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Considering that industry and resupply (especially of the navy, which both carries a major brunt of fighting the Tyranids as well as transportting the Guard to the battlezones) is going to be rather crucial to fighting hte Tyranids (they can't fighyt if they don't have ammo/supplies/parts/etc.) and given that its not likely to be a "quick" fight if it ever did happen (Years would probably be "fast", decades more likely) its quite likely that the "500% mobilization" did not mean that the Imperium would abandon constrruction and fabrication and manufacturing to any large degree and simply to fight - that would GURANTEE failure.

And yes, while the other Segmentums could pick up the slack some perhaps, but that runs into the rather obvious problem that the Warp always presents - longer range supply is always going to be a trickier (and slower/more time consuming) proposition, so localized infrastructure will ALWAYS be crucial to such fights.

Besides which, the AdMech, the Astartes, the other allied elements (The Naviagtors) and likely a fair number of the older/more powerful worlds (mainly Hives) probably wouldn't stand for it, and if they needed to mobilize to THAT extent to fight hte Tyranids, its rather doubtful they'd have any ability to enforce their decrees against such. Hell, if they had anything left NOT thrown at the Tyranids would probably need to be devoted to fighting the other threats first.
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Post by Teleros »

I always viewed that particular quote as (a) stupid and (b) a sort of "all things being equal" prediction. Look at the way it's written - it goes straight on from the "min. 500%" figure to talking about conscripting every man and woman in 3 Segmentums into the Imperial Guard (alone :shock: ). Given as you rightly point out the near impossibility of doing such a thing, it is far more likely that the Collective is pointing out that new methods for fighting the Tyranids are desperately needed. I know if I were a High Lord and reading that report I'd start looking into alternative methods - I'm sure a massive expansion in the Imperial Navy would be more efficient for example.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Just to note.. I WAS going to update Codex Orks.. but for some reason I forgot or misplaced the update.. so I have to retype out and re-comment on the section, which will be time consuming. So just sit tight.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Teleros wrote:I always viewed that particular quote as (a) stupid and (b) a sort of "all things being equal" prediction. Look at the way it's written - it goes straight on from the "min. 500%" figure to talking about conscripting every man and woman in 3 Segmentums into the Imperial Guard (alone :shock: ). Given as you rightly point out the near impossibility of doing such a thing, it is far more likely that the Collective is pointing out that new methods for fighting the Tyranids are desperately needed. I know if I were a High Lord and reading that report I'd start looking into alternative methods - I'm sure a massive expansion in the Imperial Navy would be more efficient for example.
The most logical explanation is that it refers to total warfighting capability, and the drafting does not include those needed to keep the supply line active (manufacturing, transports, and other logistics.) Without logistical s upport, the Guard will grind to a halt no matter how many troops they induct.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

The Ork update.

Page 35
Mekboyz have an uncanny understanding of battlefield technology and will sometimes build or scavenge powerful force field projectors to protect the Boyz on the battlefield.
Orks will employ theatre shielding in combat for vehicles and troops, which helps offset their tactics somewhat. Its also implied they may scavenge such devicecs frrom other races, suggesting that others may also utilize theatre shielding (which is further reinforced by Apocalypse)

PAge 35
Mekboyz spend much of their time tinkering with weaponry to make it more powerful or faster to fire. [More dakka kustom job]

...

Shootier weapons use a larger calibre and heavier ammo to give them more punch.

..

A shoota or slugga with the Blasta kustom job has extra heavy duty armour piercing ammo or is radically altered so that it fires a lethal energy bolt capable of burning through armour.
Description of Ork modifications to weapons. Basically most of it seems to involve scaling up/down or the incorporation of a new aspect (IE armour piercing bullets). this suggests some implications just how the "WAAAAGH" effect influences technology (basically, it seems to improve reliability/workability, which is why we have numerous example of Ork tech working for most people - at least the basic stuff. Its also thsi improved reliability that allows them to do what would be otherwise-impractical/impossible/dangerous modifications.)

Page 36
Tankbusta Bombz - these Bombz are directional explosive charges the size of manhole covers.
THey are used by Orks against vehicles and fortifications which krak stikkbombz just aren't heavy enough to break.
The orks appare to be sophisicated enough to employ shaped charges.

Page 36
Mad Doks carry all kinds of crude, rusty, medical paraphenelia. Most of the saws, blades and hammers they carry make perfect close combat weapons.
Not that it probably needs commenting on, but if they cna survive rusty implements that double as close combat weapons, they're pretty damn tough.

Page 38
Great daggers of flame stabbed out from their shootas and hot shell casings spewed everywhere. The resulting storm of fire whipped across the armoured ranks and sparks flew as shots ricocheted off the Space MArine's armour, some of them fell but the line kept stubbornly advancing.
Ork slugga fire bounced off Spacee MArine armor.

Page 38
There was a flash and roar a split second before Grubnatz found himself hurtled to the ground. A series of raucous explosions followed, rubble and dust flew from the walls with each concussion. Smoke and flames were snaking through the ruins as the boyz clambered to theri feet. Several were rounded and some didn't get back up at all, even when they were kicked. Skabsnik was incautious enough to stand up right next to a gap in the wall and was blown to bits by bolter fire where he stood.
Ork, a proto-Boss, gets blasted apart by bolter fire.

Page 38
Ruzgob added emphasis by kicking his ammo runt a good thre metres.
Assuming a Runt (Gretchin) masses somewhere around 50-60 kg (smaller than humans), suggesting the momentum of an Ork kick could be anywhere in the 100-150 kg*m/s range (at least), possibly several hundred kg*m/s

Page 38
The surviving Space Marines didn't run for it or even back away, though Grubnatz had fought Space Marines before so he didn't really expect them to, instead they levelled tehir bolters and started firing. Boyz were blown apartt left, right and centre but they kept going, Grubnatz' boyz weren't going to be outdone by Ruzgob's skum.
More of bolters blowing apart Orks.

Page 38
Grubnatz brought his choppa down on the helm of the first Space Marine he reached but it glanced off the shoulder plate. The Space Marine raised a bolt pistol and blew a big chunk out of Grubnatz's shoulder, which stung like crazy and made him really mad.

Grubnatz struck back with a roar, hitting at the joints in the Space MArine's amrour; elbows, knees, neck - that was where they were vulnerable.
Space Marine armour can stop an Ork Boss with a choppa

Also, an Ork can take a bolt pistol wound to the shoulder (having the hsoulder blown out?) and survive.

Page 38
He blazed away with his slugga, revelling in the solid kick of it each time it fired.[
Ork sluggas apparently have significant recoil, many times that of a normal human firearm given the differences in strength, probably.

Page 39
In some forgotten firefight long ago Ghazghkull took a bolter round in the head and was almost killed. He was saved by the "skills" of Orky serjery and his own Ork hardiness.
Ghaz took a bolt round to the head and survived.

Page 45
A warband can comprise anywhere between thirty and twenty thousand warriors plus their associated war machines and is commanded by a large and aggerssive Ork chieftan, called the Warboss.

The Warband is split into a number of mobs, , with each mob usually lead by an Ork noble, ,referred to as a Boss or "Nob" (pronounced knob,
not nobe)
*(Average?) size of an Ork War band. Does not apparently include the lesser orks such as Gretchin and such.

Page 45
A tribe can comrpise anything from several hundred to tens of thousands of Orks and will claim control of an entire continent or world. More commonly a vaguely habitable Ork world will s ustain several Ork tribes in a more-or less perpetual state of war with each other until they join in a Waaagh! against non Orks.[
(average?) size of an Ork Tribe. Presumably "tens of thousands" is conservative, s ince a warband can be tens of thousands of orks alone. One presumes an Ork Planet might average hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions.

Even so, its fiarly obvious that the population densities of Orks on a planetary scale will be far less than humans. Therefore, since Orks outnumber humanity, that means the Orks must hold proportionally more planets than humanity.

Page 45
Duiring a Waaagh! especially potent Ork Warlords sometimes succeed in forging an empire from their conquests (though their organisation is more feudalistic than imperial) The largest and most stable of these is undoubtably the Ork empire of Charadon, which has survived for several thousand years under a sucecssion of Warlords.
Description of what happens when the orks establish Empires, and an example of an especially long-lived one.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Charadon is, given what we know of Orks, a completely amazing achievement. That there actually is some sort of succession (though probably determined by physical combat) is impressive enough on its own. I wonder just how functional an empire it is; Orks always have a functioning economy wherever they go, becauseo f Teef, but it would just be interesting to see it on such a large scale as Charadon.
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Post by Zablorg »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Ruzgob added emphasis by kicking his ammo runt a good thre metres.
Assuming a Runt (Gretchin) masses somewhere around 50-60 kg (smaller than humans), suggesting the momentum of an Ork kick could be anywhere in the 100-150 kg*m/s range (at least), possibly several hundred kg*m/s
Are you sure about the weight calculation? From looking at the various illustrations, Grots look like they are around half a meter in height. I'm roughly three times as high as that, and I'm exactly 60 kg. At a very, very sketchy approximation I'd give their weight to be 20 kilograms.

Ford Prefect wrote: Orks always have a functioning economy wherever they go, because of Teef
This bit has always confused me. The ork economy is supposed to keep prices constant, but it is the supply of the goods that they purchase the driving factor in economics, not how much bits of currency are in the system. If everyone has roughly 20 teef, give or take, then their economic situation would be the same as a tribe with the same amount of resources but each had only 10 or so teef.

[/quote]
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Orkish economics are clearly different to those utilised by humans. I think a factor here is that attempting to charge more for a product than normal will result in getting your head stomped in.
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Post by Coalition »

Zablorg wrote: This bit has always confused me. The ork economy is supposed to keep prices constant, but it is the supply of the goods that they purchase the driving factor in economics, not how much bits of currency are in the system. If everyone has roughly 20 teef, give or take, then their economic situation would be the same as a tribe with the same amount of resources but each had only 10 or so teef.
IIRC, Orks constantly regrow teeth during their life. Of course, this is a sustaining situation. An ork with lots of teeth can buy better weapons and armor, letting him survive longer and eat more. An ork that does poorly will have few teeth, not be able to buy the good stuff, and get banged up in each fight.
Ford Prefect wrote:Orkish economics are clearly different to those utilised by humans. I think a factor here is that attempting to charge more for a product than normal will result in getting your head stomped in.
aka haggling
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Zablorg wrote: Are you sure about the weight calculation? From looking at the various illustrations, Grots look like they are around half a meter in height. I'm roughly three times as high as that, and I'm exactly 60 kg. At a very, very sketchy approximation I'd give their weight to be 20 kilograms.
Based on what? Most images I've seen show them relative to orks, and neither Orks or Gretchin ever stand at full height (they tend to stoop or crouch). As Orks are taller than humans, being half the height of an Ork is not minor.

In fact, the codex in question has an annotated size chart from the Ryza warzone: The biggest ork shown (a Warboss) is 3 meters tall in the image, your "standard" Boy is about 2 meters tall, and a Gretchin is nearly 1.5 Meters. On top of that, the orks depicted aren't even standing up fully straight. I'd estimate a Warboss could probably get a nother meter at full height, a Boy/Warrior maybe another half metre or so and a Gretchin would probably be roughly human height (1.7-1.8 m)
This is substantiated by older (about 2nd edition) material on the ORks I've seen as well (which also mentioned the Orkish tendency to stoop.)
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Final update for this Ork Codex.. I'll probably cover the other one (2007 one) next.

The details on Ork biology/genetics stuff follows...

Page 46
Every Orkoid is a symbiosis of two biologies within a single structure. As well as a standard gene-spiral, every Orkoid also possesses a spiral of an algal/fungal base. The standard genetic structure of an Orkoid remains essentially the same as that of man, in that it dictates the majority of the creature's form and biological procecsses.

...

The Algal cellular sub-system is comparable in many ways to the human bloodstream. It is bound within their anatomical structure at a molecular level and works alongside the stnadard genetic and biological processes. The Orkoid algal structure responds to damage in combination with blood clotting and so forth. This means that even large wounds will be covered with a hard, skin-like layer within a few hours of the injury occuring, as the algal cells rapidly replicate to repair the damage.

We found that however serious the injury, if the Orkoid did not die immediately from shock it was unlikely to die from loss of blood or organ trauma. This regenerative proceess is aided by the Orks' crude medical knowledge - whole limbs can be grafted on, organs freely swapped, wounds stapled shut and so forth with only .0023% chance of tissue rejection. The Orkoid's ability to withstand such usually mortal wounds makes them such a fearsome prospect

[note to Fabricator-GEneral: Please have our Imperial Commanders examine the dedication with which we conduct battlefield cleansing tecnhiques. Not matter how mortal a wound looks, a live Ork must be dispatched in a conclusively lethal manner such as beheading and disembowelling.]
General commentary on how and why Orks are so bloody tough and able to recover from serious wounds. Take note of the wound healing "a few hours" after injury, the lack of shock, and the ease of repairing wounds.

Also note the note at the end.. "disemboweling" and "beheading" CAN kill an Ork it seems.. but that to actually kill one you need to deliver what amounts to a pretty brutal wound.
The Orkoid's standard strand defines what type it is while the algal gene-strand remains consistent, whatever sub-species of Orkoid. This common heritage is remarkable and leaves me with no other conclusion than that of genetic manipulation and re-strructuring some time in the Orkoids' distant past.
Orks were genetically engineered, at least the AdMech figures. We know they are, since they're (basically) a product of the Old Ones.

The algal matter within an Orkoid contains the genetic make-up of all the Orkoid species, not just the codes of life for the species carrying it. Throughout an Orkoid's life it sheds spore-like cells containing the entire genetic code of the Orkoid races. THese are shed in an unconscious manner much as a human replicates skin cells and sheds the dead tissue them without realising it. These spores are microscopic in nature and fufill a number of functions. Firstly, they can be detected by the highly sensitive nasal organs of the Orkoids, conveying a variety of information such as status, age, and so on. It also enables an Orkoid to locate other Orkoids over quite a wide distance (several miles, given wind strength, direction, and so on.)
Ork spore reproduction, and some of their roles. (not just for reproduction.)
The spores are also the reproductive mechansim of an Orkoid. When they settle in the correct conditions, the spore will evolve into the species whose genetic structure it contains. Orkoid spores require dank, dark locations to activate, much like other algaes and fungi. Caves and fores are the most successful spawning sides for Orkoid spores, but even in the most arid conditions, a proportionate number of spores will still land within a site suitable for development.

...

However, once the algal stage is established, Orkoid cells are generated in tandem development, and the Orkoid grows like any vegetative tumor.

....

Due to the nature of the spore process, dozens or even hundreds of Orkoids will emerge within a shortt spacee of time. The Orkoid algal cells contain the gene strands fro the diverse Orkoid species, so a singel type of Orkoid can still propogate an entire community on its own.

...

Perhaps within a year of the spores landing the Orkoids will be thriving quite easily.
Ork spore reproduction.

...In essence Anzion specualtes that some sort of psychic resonance limits spore growth in proximity to established Ork settlements, ensuring an even spread of colonsiation.

...

Anzion goes on to discuss the generation of spores, concluding that Orkoids generate a grreater number of spores in the latter stages of their life span, with a final mass release after death. If correct this observation means that old battlefields and worlds liberated from the Orks are exceedingly vulnerable to re-infestation at a later stage. It is also possible that ships could unwittingly transporrtt spores from world to world.
Its theorized that aspects of Orkoid biology (such as reproduction) are psychically monitored/regulated. Which, in a sense, really isn't surprising. We know that the Orks are linked psychically in some form (which naturally is what manifests their gods Gork and Mork) and its probably that same link that affects/regulates all of Orkdom. The Meks and Painboys "genetic knowledge" is probably attributable to this (call it a "psychic pool" of knowledge that only Orks with the right genetics can access.) If we needed to come up with a mechanism, this is probably another function of their Gods (to basically get the Orks to do what they need to do.)

I suppose in a sense this makes Gork and Mork similar to the Tyranid Hive Mind, only stompier, shootier, and greener.
Note to Fabricator General: Please inform our Imperail Commanders that Orkoid bodies must be thoroughly burnt, disintegrated or dumped into the ether.]
Obviously, while death can be achieved by decapitation or disembowling, you can only be certain you eliminate all orks by fire or disintegration or disposal away from an enviroment.
Due to the way the Orks' hierarchy is structured, with fighting to determine ranking, the most highly ranking Orks are the largest. This is not because they are better at fightnig but that a belligerent, aggressive Ork - one who has beaten his opponent - will put on several pounds of additional muscle tissue over the next two to three weeks. Orks preparing to challegne a superior will also put on weight as their psyche develops the necessary aggression....

...

Over extended fighting, the average size fighting Orks have been known to increase by several inches in height and almost a stone in solid muscular tissue.
Ork bodies seem to be able to respond to stimulus such as combat to "imrpove" themselves.. becoming better fighters, after a fashion, due to extensive exposure to combat.

Page 48

Internal injuries are similarily treated, and the multiple redundancy of many Ork organs also provides plenty of transplant donors for those in need of such measures.
Not only do Orks heal fast and are strong/tough, but they also have redundancy for many orrgans.

Page 48
However, disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colours, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarily, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids..

...

I theorise that manyn Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Orks' subconscious somehow ensure that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.
[/quote]

Commentary on the "WAAAGH" effect and its influence on technology. It is worth noting that it is indeed theorized to be some sort of latent telekinesis that enables functioning.

I would note that while this is mostly true, there are some obvious practical limits. The fact that Orks in "red" vehicles go faster does not mean they go ludicorusly fast (IE no relatavistic warbuggies, for example) or that they can generally take something not a vehicle and make it drive. Likewise, they probably can't turn just anything into a gun and make it shoot (as already noted, we have examples of Ork weapons used by non-orks and they don't immediately blow up, backfire or fail to work.) so a case may be made where the "WAAAGH" effect on technology tends to be one more of efficiency or reliability than making things actually work or not.

Of course there are probably exceptions (Shokk assault cannons I could quite easily see working the way they do simply because they believe it does, but thats not necceesarily accurate.) but in alot of cases even the extreme tech will just be a matter of "reliability" (IE it would blow up in a non-ork's hands, but an Ork can amke it work.)
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Cykeisme »

Minor question regarding Ork industry..
They're often described as salvaging and refurbishing ready available arms, vehicles and equipment, or salvaging battlefield scrap for raw materials.
However, on Orky worlds that were never populated by humanity (or any other race), they're still able to achieve a high level of teknolojy.

Have Orks been shown to engage in mining and smelting of metals and other minerals?
A progression of establishing base technologies to support later, more advanced ones?

Of course, it's possible that this is normal behaviour that instinctively occurs on any Ork community of sufficient age and size, but is too mundane to have been described.
After all, if they needed to mine raw materials and develop their technological and industrial base, that means that it's on an uninhabited world with no 'umies (on a captured Imperial world they can take the shortcut of salvaging), and is thus will not be seen by human characters in a story.

Still, has the been shown or described anywhere?
It'd be interesting to have a rough description of the stages they go through, from feral squig-herders to a shootin', stompin', wheelin', tellyportin' WAAAAAAAAGHH!!!
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Cykeisme »

You know what, that just might be better off as a new thread.
If it really should be, I wouldn't mind if a mod moved it.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Not directly. Thats likely tasks left to the scavengers or their slaveS (either the gRetchines or those they conquer, more likely the latter) since at least some of Ork Tech gets built by those they conquer.

Otherwise I suspect they get alot of stuff from salvage of battlefields (thats one of the purposes for their flamethrower crews.)

Then again, they can turn Roks into warships, so they may have some sort of mining/refining ability.
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Cykeisme »

They do seem to get most of their stuff from battlefield salvage; after all, Orks is made for fightin and winnin, and if the resource is so easily available, they'd take it.

However, without the ability to mine and refine metals, they'd be reliant on non-Ork races to provide them with materials and even mechanical components. This does not seem to be the case, as there are Ork WAAAGHs that come out from the bowels of Ork space, which is free of other races.

Can we safely assume that they're able to build up their tech and industrial level completely from scratch on an uninhabited Earth-like world?
By completely, I mean with full Orky military hardware, and able to grab and convert roks and hulks, and jump into the Immaterium to go wherever Gork and Mork will take them.

Humanity has taken ages to get to where we are today, but we had to learn as we went. An Ork civilization have the advantage of being able to tap into their psychic database for technological, engineering and even medical knowledge.

If they are able to build up their infrastructure and everything from scratch without outside intervention, beginning from nothing but Ork spores in the atmosphere of an Earth-like planet, what sort of a time frame sounds reasonable?
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

According to wikipedia they do have miners and tunnelers (some sort of Oddboyz.. they also seem to haev bankers/accountants.. hehe.) but so far as I knwo thats unverified. It may be earlier fluff or not.. I'd have to dig in and check alot of sources (and I have alot of sources to check up for questions like this.)
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Re: Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Post by andrewgpaul »

Connor MacLeod wrote:... they also seem to haev bankers/accountants.. hehe.
Given the medium of exchange used, that's probably a specialisation of Painboyz. :)
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