SW Empire vs 40K Imperium in ST Milky Way

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TithonusSyndrome
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SW Empire vs 40K Imperium in ST Milky Way

Post by TithonusSyndrome » 2008-06-10 09:50pm

In an effort to return some spice to three very old core franchises involved in the VS culture, let's place a wormhole leading to the Empire at one arbitrary point on the periphery of the TNG Milky Way directly opposite of a wormhole on the other end of the same galaxy leading to the Imperium. Each power is instructed to spread into and seize the ST Milky Way in it's entirety with surrender completely out of the question, forcing the other back into it's wormhole of origin, so political will is a non-issue. Parties may bargain with and enlist various local powers a la Starcrossed or obliterate them and charge on to their primary foe if they feel it more tactically urgent to do so.

Wormhole locations are nothing I'm particularly picky about, so you may deign to pick your own based on which you would think offers the most entertaining outcome, but let's assume for simplicity's sake that the default wormholes are located at the border between the gamma/alpha quadrants and the beta/delta quadrants.

Discuss.
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Post by Maxentius » 2008-06-10 09:53pm

The Empire's overwhelming FTL advantage gives them a tremendous leg-up in this situation, so much so that it might be entirely possible for them to have subjugated the entirety of the Alpha Quadrant via brute force while Imperium assets are still being deployed/in transit to their targets.
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Post by TithonusSyndrome » 2008-06-10 09:56pm

Maxentius wrote:The Empire's overwhelming FTL advantage gives them a tremendous leg-up in this situation, so much so that it might be entirely possible for them to have subjugated the entirety of the Alpha Quadrant via brute force while Imperium assets are still being deployed/in transit to their targets.
I feared so, I didn't know enough about 40K to know definitively if that'd be a factor. Perhaps sandwiching the Empire between the Borg and the Dominion along the gamma/delta border and letting 40K have the soft targets at the alpha/beta border wormhole would be less one-sided?
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Post by Maxentius » 2008-06-10 09:57pm

TithonusSyndrome wrote: I feared so, I didn't know enough about 40K to know definitively if that'd be a factor. Perhaps sandwiching the Empire between the Borg and the Dominion along the gamma/delta border and letting 40K have the soft targets at the alpha/beta border wormhole would be less one-sided?
Compared to both the Empire and the Imperium, the entirety of the ST Galaxy (with the exception of the odd alien of the week) is a 'soft target'.
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Post by starfury » 2008-06-10 11:22pm

I really we had fairly similar Vs sometime back, but with andromeda's System commonwealth vs the Galactic Empire, the Star trek being the battle-ground for their wars.

Wasn't there a thread on it, it was pretty interesting.
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-06-11 12:44am

Empire wins easily by simply popping into their end of the galaxy and hyperdriving over to the Imperium's wormhole and blockading it. The much slower warp drive of the Imperium's ships would render them unable to do the same.

That is, unless the two factions are unaware of their enemy's wormhole locations, in which case it takes the Empire exactly as long as it is required for them to find the wormhole with massed probe droid exploration,a nd then they hammer the Imperium's wormhole. Of course, that could take years or decades if they have to search every inch of the galaxy for the wormhole, in which case they'll need to slug it out the old fashioned way.
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Post by Feil » 2008-06-11 01:38am

The Empire gets a new galaxy, virtually unopposed. The Empire has a slight advantage over the Imperium in terms of technology, a huge advantage in infrastructure, and an insurmountable advantage in military situation - the Imperium is besieged; the Empire is at the height of its military might. Besides, there's no Astronomican in the ST Milky Way, which means the Imperium is limited to timers, charts, and guesswork to crawl along at a few dozen c.

After acquiring a lovely new galaxy, the Empire enters the 40k Milky Way, makes it a few light years, and promptly finds itself fucked over by psykers, demons, and other unfortunate consequences of lacking an kind of defense against such powers.

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Post by Hawkwings » 2008-06-11 02:00am

Wait a minute... Isn't warp travel really slow for 40K because of all the nasties in warp space? Meaning, without all the demons that want to eat you, warp travel is both quick and predictable?
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Post by Crayz9000 » 2008-06-11 02:49am

Hawkwings wrote:Wait a minute... Isn't warp travel really slow for 40K because of all the nasties in warp space? Meaning, without all the demons that want to eat you, warp travel is both quick and predictable?
I believe we're assuming for purposes of debate that the Warp functions the same way as in the WH40k universe.

Besides, the instant the wormhole opens, you'd kind of expect the Warp to trickle through, daemons and all.
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2008-06-11 03:31am

Well, it raises an interesting question, actually. Thanks to 40k's murky prehistory, almost any Milky Way-based sci-fi verse can be shoehorned in as having taken place prior to the events of the 40k galaxy. In a scenario such as this, then, it's open for debate whether or not the Warp as it existed in M3 would apply to the Trek Milky Way.

And it's a big factor, too. Without fully-coalesced daemons and Chaos Gods muddying the Warp, it's significantly faster, more reliable, and does not require the Astronomicon for navigation.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 04:45am

Feil wrote:After acquiring a lovely new galaxy, the Empire enters the 40k Milky Way, makes it a few light years, and promptly finds itself fucked over by psykers, demons, and other unfortunate consequences of lacking an kind of defense against such powers.
I dispute this. Certainly, Chaos will raise hell with a fleet unused to it, but the Empire brass hats are not stupid, and Palpatine and his prophets are super-precogs. I doubt that they would be caught completely unawares. They also have counter-measures against their own telepathy-based threats, and as I remember it the standard in these cases is to assume that supernatural powers are compatible. If so, they merely need to outfit their Star Destroyers with Ysalamiri (no-limits Force-killing iguanas).
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Post by The Grim Squeaker » 2008-06-11 08:44am

Darth Hoth wrote:
Feil wrote:After acquiring a lovely new galaxy, the Empire enters the 40k Milky Way, makes it a few light years, and promptly finds itself fucked over by psykers, demons, and other unfortunate consequences of lacking an kind of defense against such powers.
I dispute this. Certainly, Chaos will raise hell with a fleet unused to it, but the Empire brass hats are not stupid, and Palpatine and his prophets are super-precogs. I doubt that they would be caught completely unawares. They also have counter-measures against their own telepathy-based threats, and as I remember it the standard in these cases is to assume that supernatural powers are compatible. If so, they merely need to outfit their Star Destroyers with Ysalamiri (no-limits Force-killing iguanas).
First of all, assuming that Palpatine would start cloning trillions of Yslamiri which would leave him helpless and unable to monitor or aid his ships, is about as as ludicrous as "ST gets the Genesis device en masse".
Secondly, There have been cases of Untouchables getting infected by Chaos (As I recall, See the Ravenor short story about the hunter's lodge), and Chaos can overwhelm untouchable psykers (They vary in power).
This is the same type of absurdly unlikely suggestion Trek gets lambasted for, and here Palpatine and almost every one of his (Force sensitive) confidantes would never allow it, due to the personal threat and crippling involved.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 08:59am

DEATH wrote:First of all, assuming that Palpatine would start cloning trillions of Yslamiri which would leave him helpless and unable to monitor or aid his ships, is about as as ludicrous as "ST gets the Genesis device en masse".
Secondly, There have been cases of Untouchables getting infected by Chaos (As I recall, See the Ravenor short story about the hunter's lodge), and Chaos can overwhelm untouchable psykers (They vary in power).
This is the same type of absurdly unlikely suggestion Trek gets lambasted for, and here Palpatine and almost every one of his (Force sensitive) confidantes would never allow it, due to the personal threat and crippling involved.
Is it really? Even if the alternative was to see his ships lost to Chaos and insanity? Palpatine is power-hungry, but not outright stupid (at least, that would go for his pre-Clone madness incarnations). Traditional communications are good enough to allow for near-instant reports anyway. Not that we must even assume that the ships are controlled by humans; the World Devastators amply demonstrate that Palpatine can build fleets directed solely by machines, which by virtue would be completely loyal to him, Force or not. Incidentally, removing the human element would also render Chaos itself more or less meaningless as an insidious threat. Neither proposition is absurd, although the first would be extreme.

I would not know of the story you refer to. Can Untouchables channel the Warp? I thought the very point with them was that they did not have a Warp presence.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker » 2008-06-11 09:48am

Actually, machines are EASIEr to corrupt by Chaos. (There's a short story where a cultist put a sigil on the factory belt, and there you had it. No souls/wapr self/faith makes the machines/AI's sitting ducks).

Untouchables are anti-Warp. They cause psykers physical pain just by being in the same area, can cause daemon princes to scream, and can waltz through most psychic effects without being effected. (See, Jhurgen fron the Cain books for an example of a relatively powerful untouchable)
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-06-11 12:44pm

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Well, it raises an interesting question, actually. Thanks to 40k's murky prehistory, almost any Milky Way-based sci-fi verse can be shoehorned in as having taken place prior to the events of the 40k galaxy. In a scenario such as this, then, it's open for debate whether or not the Warp as it existed in M3 would apply to the Trek Milky Way.

And it's a big factor, too. Without fully-coalesced daemons and Chaos Gods muddying the Warp, it's significantly faster, more reliable, and does not require the Astronomicon for navigation.
Actually, by M3, three of the Gods are already awake. Less able to penetrate the real world, but still there. Of course, Star Trek almost certainly <i>doesn't</i> take place in 40K's past, due to the lack of Orks. :) Which is a pity, becuase otherwise the Imperium might get some assistance from the EMperor himself
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 01:09pm

DEATH wrote:Actually, machines are EASIEr to corrupt by Chaos. (There's a short story where a cultist put a sigil on the factory belt, and there you had it. No souls/wapr self/faith makes the machines/AI's sitting ducks).
Have we actually seen Chaos's power affect AIs, and if so to what extent did it work? What you are talking about sounds more like an ordinary "dumb" machine. And of course, a World Devastator would probably not let cultists scrawl their markings on it in the first place.

In the thread on Warp quantification, I have been advancing the interpretation that there are two main forms of Chaos corruption, mental through temptation or possession and the more physical one that can mutate flesh or warp metal. Each would have their strengths and weaknesses; in particular, physical corruption would need a medium, such as a poison or a cultist. A machine would be immune to the former, and able to defend itself against the latter, as it could simply avoid contact.

And, of course, the idea of the Ysalamiri would still stand. I cannot see why Palpatine would abstain from using them if the threat of mundane subversion was nil.
Untouchables are anti-Warp. They cause psykers physical pain just by being in the same area, can cause daemon princes to scream, and can waltz through most psychic effects without being effected. (See, Jhurgen fron the Cain books for an example of a relatively powerful untouchable)
That was how I understood it. But evidently they, too, can be corrupted? Or did I misinterpret you? How would that work?
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Post by Hawkwings » 2008-06-11 02:07pm

In the Ravenor series, one of the untouchables is slowly corrupted by a daemon. It was kind of unclear how it happened, but it took a while.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-06-11 03:13pm

The warp in 40K is so turbulent greatly due to the genetically enhanced psyker experiments the Old Ones did on so many races. The greater connection that gave them power also lead to the emotional turmoil of the sentients in the galaxy feeding back into the Warp. Its further complicated by the constnat warfare and such the galaxy is subject to.

both the Trek and SWG neither have strrong (if any) connections to the Warp in any real sense (they develop some psychics, but never psykers of any real scope like 40K has, and certainly not in the numbers they do), so the "Warp" in both galaxies is bound to have alot less turbulence.

Mind, as has been mentioned before, the turbulence is beneficial sometimes too.. it can "boost" travel through the warp as well as hinder it.

LAstly.. how is Chaos fitting into this picture? Has humanity done anything about the Warp? If Chaos is out of hte picture, the turbulencei n the 40K galaxy may have lessened (but probably not gone.. there are other warp entities than Choas as I recall)

As for hyperdrive... I think you guys are forgetting something. While SW hyperdrive IS and can be faster... its highest capable speeds generally rely on at least a rough knowledge of the galaxy (not the "hyperspace lane/route" stuff, but they have to have the right astrogation data to plot safe courses that allow maximum velocities to be achieved.) Otherwise, they go slower, so that the hyperdrive can spot and avoid potential collisions. This can, of course, be addressed by capturing maps (this might work better for trek than for 40K.. in 40K the decentralize and quasi-fragmented nature of the Imperium means that not even individual worlds or sector's will neccesarily know where planets are.)

A more likely means of fixing this would be "probe droid spam", but even this will have limits. The ST and 40K galaxy do not come with pre-established holonet/hyperwave capability, and establishing such will take time, so any probes will probably have to rely on subspace comms to relay data... and subspace comms have alot shorter ranges (though still quite a bit.) And There's no telling how many might be needed to effectively map it.

I can't really predict HOW long it would take for SW to overcome those limits, but its probably not terribly long... and while it lasts, the difference in FTL wo uld be alot less (possibly even comparable.) Mind, even if they get their "full" FTL speeds, they still have to locate Imperial worlds, ,(the aforementioend fragmentary nature of the Imperium again helps them here.)

Also remember that while SW has a MASSIVE industrial advantage, particularily in speed, 40K CAN potentailly match it in scope (every planet can potentailly build a heavy cruiser size vessel or smaller within a decade, and hundreds of thousands of them can probably build same more quickly, as well as building bigger vessels.) but will also start with substantially greater naval forces: Probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of cruisers, tens or hundreds of thousands of battleshiips, millions (or more) of escorts... and then there's the reserve/mothball fleets, the Astartes fleets, the ARbites fleets, the Sororitas fleets, Navigator ships, Inquisitorial ships, etc....



Also, I Have to wonder.. how do the omnipotents in the ST galaxy fare herE?

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Post by Ender » 2008-06-11 10:15pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:As for hyperdrive... I think you guys are forgetting something. While SW hyperdrive IS and can be faster... its highest capable speeds generally rely on at least a rough knowledge of the galaxy (not the "hyperspace lane/route" stuff, but they have to have the right astrogation data to plot safe courses that allow maximum velocities to be achieved.) Otherwise, they go slower, so that the hyperdrive can spot and avoid potential collisions. This can, of course, be addressed by capturing maps (this might work better for trek than for 40K.. in 40K the decentralize and quasi-fragmented nature of the Imperium means that not even individual worlds or sector's will neccesarily know where planets are.)

A more likely means of fixing this would be "probe droid spam", but even this will have limits. The ST and 40K galaxy do not come with pre-established holonet/hyperwave capability, and establishing such will take time, so any probes will probably have to rely on subspace comms to relay data... and subspace comms have alot shorter ranges (though still quite a bit.) And There's no telling how many might be needed to effectively map it.

I can't really predict HOW long it would take for SW to overcome those limits, but its probably not terribly long... and while it lasts, the difference in FTL wo uld be alot less (possibly even comparable.) Mind, even if they get their "full" FTL speeds, they still have to locate Imperial worlds, ,(the aforementioend fragmentary nature of the Imperium again helps them here.)
It can also be remedied by jumping above the galactic plane and back down. They would gain the speed at the cost of operating range there though, and the lack of resupply bases would hamper them. As to the time it takes to chart though, that should be pretty easy. Treat it as a simple exponential growth to cover the galaxy and use subspace or hypercomms to the nearest system and relay the signals bucket brigade style. Or even betterm first order of business send out slower probes to act as von neuman holonet relays.
Also remember that while SW has a MASSIVE industrial advantage, particularily in speed, 40K CAN potentailly match it in scope (every planet can potentailly build a heavy cruiser size vessel or smaller within a decade, and hundreds of thousands of them can probably build same more quickly, as well as building bigger vessels.) but will also start with substantially greater naval forces: Probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of cruisers, tens or hundreds of thousands of battleshiips, millions (or more) of escorts... and then there's the reserve/mothball fleets, the Astartes fleets, the ARbites fleets, the Sororitas fleets, Navigator ships, Inquisitorial ships, etc....
Exactly how many do you think SW had at its disposal?
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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-06-11 11:07pm

Darth Hoth wrote: Have we actually seen Chaos's power affect AIs, and if so to what extent did it work? What you are talking about sounds more like an ordinary "dumb" machine. And of course, a World Devastator would probably not let cultists scrawl their markings on it in the first place.
Yes. An STC machine that made AI soldiers (Men of Iron) was corrupted in the first Gaunt's Ghost novel. There's also the chaos corrupted STC Titan in Dark Adeptus. Chaos daemons can also possess warmachines and do so (although these are usually specially built with the intent of hosting a daemon). Daemons can possess starships.
In the thread on Warp quantification, I have been advancing the interpretation that there are two main forms of Chaos corruption, mental through temptation or possession and the more physical one that can mutate flesh or warp metal. Each would have their strengths and weaknesses; in particular, physical corruption would need a medium, such as a poison or a cultist. A machine would be immune to the former, and able to defend itself against the latter, as it could simply avoid contact.
Physical corruption makes one vulnerable to mental corruption and visa versa. Both tend to advance simultaneously, which is why heavily chaos corrupted individuals are extensively physically and mentally altered. Quixos is an excellent example. AIs are not immune to mental corruption. Having no souls, they have no warp presence so they can't really be reached without a physical manifestation but they also have no warp soul capable of fighting off possession.

Untouchables aren't omnipotent. They disrupt the warp around them, which is also why anything with a soul (organic life) feels uncomfortable around them. Enough brute force will get through, depending on the strength of the Untouchable.
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Post by Aaron » 2008-06-12 09:43am

Hawkwings wrote:In the Ravenor series, one of the untouchables is slowly corrupted by a daemon. It was kind of unclear how it happened, but it took a while.
I believe you guys are confusing Ravenors untouchable Wystan Frauka with his Interrogator, Carl Thonius.

Frauka is left to watch over a latent psyker on Ravenor's ship and can somehow hear him through his "blankness".

Carl Thonius gets possessed by a daemon (somehow related to his flect use) and slowly loses control and gets taken over, eventually manifesting as a huge tentacled blob.
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Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-06-13 02:27pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Frauka is left to watch over a latent psyker on Ravenor's ship and can somehow hear him through his "blankness".
What was revealed later, was that Zael was such a powerful psyker, he actually "burned out" Frauka's untouchableness. That's how he was communicating with him telepathically, and was probably "wearing" him at times as well.

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Post by Aaron » 2008-06-13 03:37pm

Falkenhayn wrote:
What was revealed later, was that Zael was such a powerful psyker, he actually "burned out" Frauka's untouchableness. That's how he was communicating with him telepathically, and was probably "wearing" him at times as well.
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Post by Uraniun235 » 2008-06-13 09:52pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Yes. An STC machine that made AI soldiers (Men of Iron) was corrupted in the first Gaunt's Ghost novel. There's also the chaos corrupted STC Titan in Dark Adeptus. Chaos daemons can also possess warmachines and do so (although these are usually specially built with the intent of hosting a daemon). Daemons can possess starships.
How do you get demons out of starships? How can you prevent demons from possessing starships? What are the limits of possession: how big a ship can one possess, how long can one possess, how adept will it be at manipulating a starship, how would it respond to parts of the ship being electronically disconnected from one another?
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Post by Aaron » 2008-06-13 10:26pm

Uraniun235 wrote: How can you prevent demons from possessing starships?
Other than the Gellar Field? The Grey Knights Astartes chapter has ships with wards built into the hull to prevent that sort of thing (their the Ordo Malleus SM Chapter, dedicated to daemon fighting) and I would imagine other Ordo ships would have them as well but not the regular naval vessels.
how adept will it be at manipulating a starship
Dark Adeptus has a Chaos fleet engaging the Grey Knights with ships crewed by captive daemons (acting as a regular crew) and a vessel that is crewed by a single gigantic daemon. I think it really depends on the specific daemon/daemons, they vary widely in their forms and abilities.
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