Fighter Brainbug?

[Patrick Degan]

Over the years, at many places I've worked, I've seen numerous jobs, growing ever more complicated, taken up by machines rather than people. I guess in all these cases, according to Degan's non-logic, the companies are taking a hit in profits and productivity by replacing people with machines.

It's funny when today's reality, with technology and AI far inferior than what SW can produce, already shows that replacing people with machines in many areas is cheaper and more efficient.

Non-logic? In that case, the canon material itself is also "non-logical".

Your Red Herring does not make the case, either. We're not talking about widespread factory automation, which is not something I've attempted to argue against at any point in this thread. The subject at hand, rather, is whether or not the droids fielded by the Separatists gave the CIS the clear qualitative advantage over the human/clone armies of the Republic. Clearly, they did not, and indeed their vulnerabilities were in several cases disasterous in terms of single-point failure.

Which does not establish that droid forces in general cannot be more efficient and more capable than straight-up humans-on-the-ground or humans-in-the-ship-in-large-numbers in SW. You consistently reject the Death Star, the clarification on your fabrications regarding the WDs, and the SD battle droid et al examples.

Excuse me, but when we have a clear example of a nationality in a war not being able to actually win that war using droids instead of organics as its main battle force, that does establish the point —whether you like the idea or not.

And I fabricated nothing regarding the World Devastators. They got neutralised by an override code and later had their central control complexes scrambled by a virus programme formulated by R2D2 in the Dark Empire comic series.

I "reject" the Death Star as one of your examples? Even you should be able to tell the difference between industrial bots designed and programmed to perform a limited number of functions and combat droids which are supposed to operate in a far more dynamic environment such as the battlefield. And just how do constructor droids demonstrate the proposition that a droid army enjoys a better qualitative advantage over human/clone forces, when this is not demonstrated in the course of the Clone Wars or by the example of the defeat of a Trade Federation droid task force at the hands of then-Force Commander Thrawn leading a numerically inferior patrol squadron in an incident prior to the war (Outbound Flight)?

[Darth Wong]

I would make a comment about dirt farmers, but it occurs that the 'power converters' Luke wanted to pick up as a typical mundane chore might well be droid parts. And the Lars' have an oil bath, among other things, for maintaining their droids. So droid maintainance may well be one of the larger costs (or even the main cost) of their vapour farm.

The logistical train of a modern heavily mechanized force is far larger than that of an all-infantry force would be. An over-mechanized force may be unusually vulnerable to the effect of supply line disruption, especially if the wear and tear is such that battle droids routinely break down without proper maintenance (you know, like many kinds of real vehicles).

Wouldn't the clone army, with its AT-TEs, juggernauts, and other things, qualify as a heavily over-mechanised force too? Especially as the Republic's army seems quite keen on using legs, compared to repulsors (which may or may not break down more often) as in AAT tanks, or wheels (hailfire droids). I expect both sides would have massive logistical requirements.

The droid army has both infantry droids and heavy vehicle-like droids. Any logistical costs associated with the heavy droids would be common to both the droid and clone armies, but the logistical costs of maintaining trillions of B1 battle droids would be much more severe for the droid army. And all of their occupation is done with B1 battle droids.

It would have been interesting to explore the maintenance issue. Perhaps the separatists built droids at a spectacular rate in part because they didn't bother doing maintenance or maintaining the necessary logistical support, so they simply treated their battle droids as disposable units. Use them till they break down, and then discard them. Wouldn't it be funny if there are "battledroid graveyards" all over the Outer Rim worlds.

I expect it's quite likely for the B1 battle droids, at least. Their supreme military commander seems to have regarded them as more disposable than bullets in a modern army. Similarly, they had huge numbers of B2 battle droids in the clone wars cartoon, that may have also been considered expendable...

I think this is probably quite likely. Dark Empire, among other things, shows that a decent living can be made scavenging battlefields. Perhaps ten years later, B1s were popular work droids on the outer rim.

Or perhaps someone found ways to scavenge certain common machine parts from them for other purposes.

[Connor MacLeod]

Battle droids seem to be designed almost deliberately to minimize cost/expenditure, (which is supposed to be a big motivating factor for the Separatists) which make the B1 droids incredibly expendable. As I recall one feature of this expendability is their "falling apart" bit - battle droids appear to be so very modular (as do many cheaper droids, like 3P0) to the point you can mix and match parts with little impact on performance (most of the performance aspects seem to be separately handled, ie DCS and the "fix" they made to overcome the flaw in TPM.) It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the regular battle droids were built with the intention of being run until they literally stopped moving or fell apart.

Therefore, they build massive numbers of expendable droids. When droids get damaged/destroyed in combat, ,the damaged parts get recycled, and the undamaged parts (say, perhaps limbs) get re-used with other battle droids (repairs or in making new ones.)

By the time of the Empire, we generally seem to see a shift more towards more powerful/sophisticated droids but in fewer numbers (or used mainly supporting organic troops, IE SD-9 and SD-10 battle droids from DE2.) Those droids are bound to be much more expensive and require much more logistics than a single battle droid.

Given how interchangable battle droid parts were with 3P0 units, battle droids could probably be a profitable source of scavenging for others looking for ways to repair or rebuild other droids.

[Darth Wong]

Indeed. Of course, if B1 battle droids are designed to be disposable no-maintenance units, that doesn't eliminate the logistical problem; it just changes its nature from one of supply and maintenance to one of constantly manufacturing and shipping new units to replace units in the field as they wear out and break down. But this would require much less skill from field units, which might make sense from the Separatists' point of view.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well now that I think about it, they wouldn't have to be TOTALLY expendable, "no-maintenance" units. Any losses the droid army incurs probably can be used as "organ donors" to coin a phrase - the undamaged or minimally damaged components can be used to repair/rebuild damaged droids in some fashion. At least so long as the parts last. I imagine in fairly entrenched battlezones a droid army amasses quite a stockpile of such parts, and they don't look as if they take all that much to assemble. It would, as you say, greatly reducee the skill needed to do in-field repairs.

Hell, if you want to really get down to it, the Separatists didn't even seem to need to rely strictly on battle droid parts for repairing. Given what we saw with 3PO in AOTC, you could probably use droid parts from most any humanoid unit/source to rebuild them, if asthetics didn't matter.

[Sarevok]

Would not the B1 droids require less maintainence than the clonetroopers by virtue of being mass produced mechanicals who require no food, clothing, housing etc daily human supplies and their modular nature that allows entire limbs and heads be swapped for new ones as opposed to long recovery times for a human ?

[Darth Wong]

Would not the B1 droids require less maintainence than the clonetroopers by virtue of being mass produced mechanicals who require no food, clothing, housing etc daily human supplies and their modular nature that allows entire limbs and heads be swapped for new ones as opposed to long recovery times for a human ?

That depends on the kind of environments we're talking about. Since most planets of interest in SW seem to be human-habitable, clonetrooopers can "live off the land" to a certain extent, ie- they can commandeer food from local governments.

[Connor MacLeod]

That depends on the kind of environments we're talking about. Since most planets of interest in SW seem to be human-habitable, clonetrooopers can "live off the land" to a certain extent, ie- they can commandeer food from local governments.

I imagine you could do that to a certain point, although IIRC large armies "living off the land" in the past have generally run into problems foraging (stripping it bare if they remain in one place too long.) Requisitioning food (if possible) seems a more likely alternative.

Then again, you could also argue that you could requisition use of factories and such for droids as well. Although more easily as long as yo u have acceess to resources and a power source (say a sun and an asteroid belt) - mobile construction facilities aren't exactly new to STar Wars after all.

You also have to consider things like sleep, medical care nad possibly training facilities. Whereas droids have maintenance and recharge periods of some sort. I'm further inclined to think the latter is less complicated than the former.

And I believe the "startup investment" in growing/training/equipping clones vs building/programming/equipping droids has as well. In this regard I think Spaarti clones would do better than Kaminoan methods.

[Xon]

One thing Droids have over a normal army is loyalty, which is why clonetroopers where extensively used by the republic.

Can't have the mindless background actors providing the scene for Palpatine's rise to power acting out of line can we?

[Connor MacLeod]

One thing Droids have over a normal army is loyalty, which is why clonetroopers where extensively used by the republic.

Can't have the mindless background actors providing the scene for Palpatine's rise to power acting out of line can we?

Battle droids IIRC weren't always loyal. some of them did "run away" at times or had simulated emotions or something like that, so it wouldn't be a consistent advantage for all droids (at least not SW droids.)

Moreover, I wouldn't rule out things like the enemy trying to take over or comandeer droids through altering their programming or some such thing.

[Xon]

Battle droids IIRC weren't always loyal. some of them did "run away" at times or had simulated emotions or something like that, so it wouldn't be a consistent advantage for all droids (at least not SW droids.)

If anything the Droids had demonstratedly more freewill than the clones.

But in either case, they are vastly more consistantly loyal than anyone who could be recruited. And with the vastly reduced chances of them going AWOL and non of the involved being Force-aware, it would be child's play for Palpatine to ensure everything happened as planned.

Moreover, I wouldn't rule out things like the enemy trying to take over or comandeer droids through altering their programming or some such thing.

I still maintain we can't determine any of the fundemental flaws of the CIS droids because Palpatine who had a vested interest in them losing and was the guy running the show for both sides.

The only few times we have seen computers "hacked" have entailed physical access. And frankly, give a Jedi similar access to dull minded troups would have similar results.

[Darth Wong]

That depends on the kind of environments we're talking about. Since most planets of interest in SW seem to be human-habitable, clonetrooopers can "live off the land" to a certain extent, ie- they can commandeer food from local governments.

I imagine you could do that to a certain point, although IIRC large armies "living off the land" in the past have generally run into problems foraging (stripping it bare if they remain in one place too long.) Requisitioning food (if possible) seems a more likely alternative.

In the past, agriculture in the vast majority of regions existed at a bare subsistence level. It was inevitable that campaigning armies would leave famine in their wake. A more efficient agricultural base would allow for a lot more local supply without the kind of associated famines that were common in our history.

Then again, you could also argue that you could requisition use of factories and such for droids as well. Although more easily as long as yo u have acceess to resources and a power source (say a sun and an asteroid belt) - mobile construction facilities aren't exactly new to STar Wars after all.

It all depends on just how maintenance-intensive the equipment is. A modern fighter plane requires much more infrastructure than its human pilot, for example. One could say that it's an extremely complicated machine with complex maintenance requirements, but it's difficult to say how well that scales down, or how durable and maintenance-free those B1 battledroids actually are.

You also have to consider things like sleep, medical care nad possibly training facilities. Whereas droids have maintenance and recharge periods of some sort. I'm further inclined to think the latter is less complicated than the former.

Without more information, I don't see how you can make that determination. We know that resupply is often cut off for long periods, given the onscreen mention of outer rim sieges in ROTS. This means that maintenance could easily become a critical factor for battledroids very quickly, especially if they are built with sealed non-serviceable modular components. A human army could use up its food rations, but depending on how well-built those B1s are (and we know they're not), the B1s could easily run out of parts much faster than the humans run out of rations.

And I believe the "startup investment" in growing/training/equipping clones vs building/programming/equipping droids has as well. In this regard I think Spaarti clones would do better than Kaminoan methods.

The startup time is the real killer when it comes to clones. You can manufacture a droid army almost overnight, with sufficient manufacturing resources.

[NeoGoomba]

What was the startup time for the Spaarati Cylinders again? Only one or two months, correct?

[Darth Wong]

It's also worth pointing out that under the right conditions, a human recruit-based military can function as a socio-economic mechanism. Specifically, if you had a prosperous elite core in a galaxy with an impoverished outer rim that is dominated by mega-corporations which exploit planets for resources and then funnel all of the profits back to their homeworlds rather than spreading it among the local denizens ... hmmm, sounds somewhat familiar ... it is entirely possible that you could easily scrounge up huge numbers of recruits who are happy simply to have guaranteed employment, paid for by the government's tax dollars. Especially if it starts taxing those same corporations in order to get the necessary money.

[Connor MacLeod]

In the past, agriculture in the vast majority of regions existed at a bare subsistence level. It was inevitable that campaigning armies would leave famine in their wake. A more efficient agricultural base would allow for a lot more local supply without the kind of associated famines that were common in our history.

Well yes, I was referring more towards the "living off the land" bit, ie foraging or hunting or whatnot. An actual agricultural base like what a "civlised" society would have is another story entirely.

It all depends on just how maintenance-intensive the equipment is. A modern fighter plane requires much more infrastructure than its human pilot, for example. One could say that it's an extremely complicated machine with complex maintenance requirements, but it's difficult to say how well that scales down, or how durable and maintenance-free those B1 battledroids actually are.

True, though for Star Wars and the Tradefed battle droids, they don't seem to be that difficult to disassemble/reassemble (given TPM) and the components don't look difficult to produce (given AOTC.) at least going with the "semi-disposalbe" idea above, its probably not too difficult (but likely more wasteful.)

I also expect it depends on just how "long term" you want to consider infrastructure. I mean in a term of years or decades you could look at "raising a child to adulthood vs building a factory" for example.

Without more information, I don't see how you can make that determination. We know that resupply is often cut off for long periods, given the onscreen mention of outer rim sieges in ROTS. This means that maintenance could easily become a critical factor for battledroids very quickly, especially if they are built with sealed non-serviceable modular components. A human army could use up its food rations, but depending on how well-built those B1s are (and we know they're not), the B1s could easily run out of parts much faster than the humans run out of rations.

Couldn't your droid forces just use a nearby asteroid field for such restocking (nevermind on a planet) we've got ample exmaples of rapid-fabrication technology (the Death Star didn't use some super-giant shiphard after all, and there are the World Devastaotrs, the Coruscant building construction droids. the duplicators from the Daley Han Solo novels, etc.) And again, with the B1 case, you apparently can cannibalize droid parts from your losses to rebuild/repair others.

BTW, didn't Curtis favor the droids as being "betteR" than clones or something from an industrial standpoint? I remember him going on about that before (or maybe it was Ender (or both.) During all the TRaviss clone war numbers stuff.

The startup time is the real killer when it comes to clones. You can manufacture a droid army almost overnight, with sufficient manufacturing resources.

For the Kaminoans yes. With the Spaarti method it may be no better or worse than having to build a droid factory (or at least not dramatically so.) Kaminoan clones needed all those internal facitlies and training zones and whatnot, as well as the barracks and educational facilities and so on and so forth.

Spaarti clones are easier to build because you can take "already trained" forces from across the galaxy (local armies, spec force, whatever you need) and then just mass produce them (training and whatnot is covered as parrt of the proceses.)

Of course, non-clone recruitment is still faster unless you use Thrawn's Spaarti technique, and droid building is faster (at least for the cheap, low-end models like B1s)