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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-10-15 05:50pm

The 3rd "battle" was an attack across the entire armageddon sub-sector, Codex Armageddon describes an initial main wave of attacks on over two dozen systems. Based on the warband estimates given in the codex, we have a rather paltry 850k-4.5 million orks in the first wave, approximately 100 Gargant weight warmachines, about 300 Battlefortresses, 20-25% of the warband strength is artillery and armoured vehicles, with about 90k-450k of that main warband number being Artillery or Speedkult warbands, which are almost 100% crews of armoured vehicles and artillery.

Obviously this is only forces attacking armageddon,not the other dozens (at least) of worlds in the sub-sector.

12-16 Spacehulks, 250-400 Kroozers, (as well as the battleships that are indentified later on) 2100 escorts, about a hundred Roks, 3000+ squadrons of fighter bommas (this could be 15k to ??? )

At this point Armageddon is a beacon for all orkish activity in the immediate area, and is drawing orks in probably from across a significant portion of the imperium.

Orks based on Armageddon are also likely to have 10% more muscle mass than the average ork, akin to orks "fighting for tribal leadership" rather than your basic grunt, at the moment, there are estimated to be 30 orks for every human on Armageddon, and without drastic action, its estimated to rise to 50 Orks per human over the next 25 years, and regions "cleared" of active orkish warbands are suffering Orkish population booms, with the orky life cycle of squigs, Snots/Grots, Orks being tripled in speed due to the harsh conditions.

An Ordo Xenos Inquisitor advocating Exterminatus mentions that there were "millions" of orks on Armageddon prior to the second orkish invasion.
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Post by white_rabbit » 2007-10-15 06:33pm

just another note, using the codex:Orks definition of "Warband" then the armageddon force was 450 thousand, to 28 million.
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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-10-16 05:49pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Another place to check would be the Green Armageddon novels or Annihilation squad, the only novels immediately coming to mind that deal with Armageddon 3 itself that I can recall immediately.
The third Last Chancers novel also takes place on Armageddon. The little introductory campaign booklet in the 2nd edition Warhammer 40,000 boxed game (the edition with Marines and Orks) took place during Armageddon 2.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-10-18 01:55am

andrewgpaul wrote: The third Last Chancers novel also takes place on Armageddon. The little introductory campaign booklet in the 2nd edition Warhammer 40,000 boxed game (the edition with Marines and Orks) took place during Armageddon 2.
I dunno about the booklet, but Anniliation squad IS the third last chancers novel. The other two were Kill Team (the second) and 13th Legion (the first, and my favorite.) ;)

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-10-18 02:01am

Next update. Again, ,its 3 separate magazines, with #8 left out (7, 9 and 10)

BFG Magazine #7

Thugh they were outnumbered by over three to one the Imperial ships blasted their way through the hive fleet and scattered the bio ships into small groups. The Tyranid piecemeal counter-attacks were beaten off by the awesome firepower of the heavily armoured and shielded Imperial ships. Their lances of fusion fire transfixed the organic hulls of the bio-ships and clouds of Imperial Navy fighters darted in to tear apart the crippled vessels. Within an hour the remnants of the hive fleet were dead and drifting, charred hulks spinning slowly through the void.


The battle had taken its toll of the combined fleet. Calgar had lost half his remaining ships and several Imperail ships had to be destroyed by the weapons of their compatriots because they had been boarded and overrun by the Tyranids.

Note the "fusion fire" lances (like mentioned in the BFG rulebook) as opposed to laser lances. I would presume that fusion lances are shorter ranged but more powerful than laser lances (much as a melta/multimelta is more powerful than a lascannon, arguably, but shorter range.)

Also note the battle with the Tyranids took the Imperials at least an hour, even though they were outnumbered 3:1)

BFG magazine 9

Page 16
Constructed solely by the Adeptus Mechanicus of Mars, the 'Black Ships' are among the most secretive of warships currently in the service of the Imperium.
Inqusition ships are only constructed by the Mars Forge world, in the Sol System. THat tends to put a limit on their numbers rather sharply. Unless, of course, the Inquisition have their own yards (which is possible/likely.)


Page 16
Combining many features of a Spacee Marine Strike Cruiser with a full-sized Battle Cruiser hull, the Black Ships (so called due to their somewhat sinister reputation) can deploy company-sized formations with orbital support.
Basically the "Black ships" were strike cruisers built onto a battlecruiser hull. This probably means battleship grade firepower (due to use of projectiles/ordnance) and durability due to specialization, as well as high mobility, at the expense of weapons range and operational endurance. Then again, being an Inquisition ship, it probably can circmuvent those limitations.

BFG mag #10

Page 4
Scattered reportts by Rogue Traders indicate that a Bastion class vessel is crewed by a "brotherhood" and that...
One must wonder if the "brotherhood" reference is another hint that the Demiurg were to replace the squats, or if they have some connection. Perhaps the Demiurg are Nomadic relations of Squats?

Page22
Not only do the Arbites operate planetside, but they also possess a small fleet of ships for transportation, logistical support and official duties. Occasionally these ships are used to hunt down small pirate bands and other miscreants.

The Arbites Punisher strike cruiser is a policing vessel which is used to bolster local system security, to quell small rebellions in nearby systems, to root out pirate bases and to transport high ranking arbites officials from planet to planet.
Like the Astartes and Inquisition, the Adeptus Arbites has its own (small) Navy. I would guess that given their "orbital support" and "pirate hunting" roles, they probably don't have many battleships (if any) but alot of cruisers and escrots.

Page 22
There is also slightly less armor plating on the ship [Punisher Strike cruiser] engine ports compared to its astartes counterpart.
Arbites strike cruisers are slightly less armoured than Astartes versions.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-10-22 02:56am

BFG magazine #11.. Dark Eldar and Tyranids

Page 4
Dozens of ships had been lost to these [dark eldar] raiders...

...

Althugh several hundred ships were still to fall victim over the course of the war....
Dark Eldar pirates cost the Imperium "hundreds" of ships during the Gothic war.


Page 5
DArk Eldar do not use holofields, but rather employ shadowfields. The Shadowfield combines a holofield with a repulsor effect of sorts, which means the field not only disguises the target but can deflect shots to some degree, making the shadowfield slightly more effective against battery fire. Since the actual distortion effect is less so than thatof a holofield, ordnance and the like which can pierce the field at a given point pose a much greater threat to Dark Eldar vessels.
Dark Eldar "Shadowfields" have a "deflecting" or protective property in addtition to the ECM like effect. Again, I fail to see why the Eldar could not adapt such, save as purely a game mechanic.

Page 5
Phantom Lance: This is the Dark Eldar equivalent of the pulsar, using dark matter powered lasers.
I assume "dark matter" is as exotic as the Imperium "plasma" in this context,

Page 5
A Dark Eldar vessel equipped with a mimc engine is able to assume the apparent dimensions of enemy ships, thus allowing the Dark Eldar to sneak up on their prey unseen. The Dark Eldar are able to mimc Imperial, Eldar, Ork, and Chaos ships, but not Tyranid or Necron vessels, so the mimic engine has no effect against either of these fleets.
Dark Eldar mimic engines.

Page 11
Though most swarms will typically contain more than one hive ship, in some circles it is believed that there is still a single ship that maintains central control of the entire collective and acts to coordinate the assault, though this cannot be confirmed. There are also unsubstantiated reprots that there are a very small number of hive ships in every swarm that are much more massive than the rest. Dwarfing even great battleships, ,these immeasurably vast creatures arrive very late in the process of planetary assimilation, and are believed to be those repsonsible for the method by which even the atmosphere and oceans are consumed from orbit, as the final stage of the world's consumption by the hive fleets. Though such a gargantuan organsim would explain how once lush and fertile worlds are left barren, airless, and sterile, therea re as of yet no recorded sightings of such a monstrous creature.
Some Tyranid vessels are bigger than Imperium battleships.

Also note the reference to Tyranid attack removing "atmosphere and oceans" as well as leaving living planets "barren, airless and sterile."

Page 11
Kraken, cruisers and droneships: These bio-ships range in size from comparable to the escrots of other races to massive ships nearly the equal in size of the hive ships they accompany.
average sizes of Tyranid bioships.

Page 11
... many of the escorts and cruisers found in typical Tyranid swarms are immature hive ships in various stages of development. It is believed that the hive mind nodes in these spacedwelling organisms remain dormant until they are mature enough to project their will across vast reaches of space...
More on the nature of Tyranid bioships. An interesting side effect of the above is that it decentralizes the command and control. Any single other ship can, given time, grow to replace any lost "command ships"


Page 11
It is believed that because some of these ships are evolved to fill such a specialized role, their size varies greatly dependant upon need. Many within the Imperium fear that if such mutability can exist within the lower orders of the Tyranid race, that Hive ships and their gargantuan kin could also evolve rapidly and effectivley pose an even more direc tthreat to the forces that oppose them.
It is bleieved/feared that the Tyranid warships have the same "hyper evolutionary" abilities of their lesser cousins.

Page 11
They [Vanguard Droneships] appear primarily to act as scouts and travel light years ahead of a swarm to locate and seed suitable planets for assimilation. They may well also act to illuminate enemy vessels for attack by later contingents of the invading swarm.
This implies FTL communication between the Hive ships over light years. The ships also serve an elint function (providing targeting data.)

It is worth noting that despite this being a big advantage for the Tyranids, the Imperium still manages to fend them off. It also means that such technologies/capabilities among their enemies would nto neccecsarily be a surprise. (They almost certainly would know the Necron have something like it too.)

Page 14
Bio plasma si treated like a lance shot...

..

Because it is a relatively slow-moving attack, like that of a bomber squadron, bio-plasma ignores shields.
The "slow moving/ignore shield" bit is curious for a number of reasons. One being, that to be an effective direct fire weapon it has to hit very rapidly (matter of seconds) voer thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers. This in turn implies a minimum velocity of thousands/tens of thousands of kilometers per second. Yet it ignores shields? there ware weapons that are just as fast/faster but do NOT ignore shields (weaposn batteries.)

Likewise it implies similar velocity for bombers and ordnance.

Page 14
These Tyranid weapons (Pyro-acidic batteries) work by launching compact organic shells containing virulent toxins and pyro-acids. They can cause considerable damage on impact, but it is the release of their ravening payloads into the confines of a ship that can prove the most deadly.

...

Any ship which is hit by pyro-acid weapons has a chance that they will continue to be eaten away by the deadly bio-agents.
Pyro suggests a thermal component, but I suspect its probably technobabble - an organic phaser if you will.

PAge 14
Many Tyranid ships have huge tentacles which they use to 'feed' on planetary atmospheres, and which can also be used to punch through the huhll of a ship allowing the Tyranid organsims inside to assault the enemy.
again Tyranids take/absorb the atmosphere of a planet.

Page 14
Tyranid vessels are terrifying in combat at close quarters. Not only are they packed full of bio-engineered killing machines, often the ships themselves have specially evolved claws designed to rip through the armour of its target, or crushing mandibles that latch onto the ship's pray and then slowly but inevitably tear through decks and gantries.
Tyranids, for some odd reason, are well equipped for melee combat. In space. I know this is 40K and way back when they did this sort of thing, but nowadays it seems kinda.. crazy. Even for 40K. I mean its like Outlaw Star...

Page 15
Tyranid ships do not have turrets or shields in the normal sense, but instead rely on emitting a constantly replenished physical barrier of spore clouds. Every spore is a Pandora's box of viral compounds, acids, ,and even nucleonic mutagens capable of eating through hull armour with alarming speed. THe combined effect of the millions of spores produces an ablative armour effect as they absorb weapons fire and ordannce directed at the bio-ship the ysurround.

...

If attacked by ordnance a bio-ship treats its spore cysts as the number of turrets it can bring to bear.
Despite this, some stories DO show Tyranids using psychically generatece force shields for defense (Both for capital ships and for smaller. Even withotu that, knowing that smaller Tyranids can generate forcefields would be sufficient argument for it on a larger scale.)

Page 16
Tyranid bio-ships are virtual living factories, spawning their ordnance as needed. Furthermore their broods are virtually autonomous and do not require maintenance or refueeling and rearming in the same way as conventional craft.
Implied that Tyranid ordnance (Strike craft and torpedoes combined) are eaisly mass-produced by the launching platforms.

Page 18
Tremendous physical variety has been observed in these behemoths, although thick-stone like armour plates and dense clusters of weapons growths are common features.Despite their seemingly impossible size, hive ships are living creatures incorporating miillions of bio-engineered organsism. Each is a biological factory capable of creating millions of Tyranid organisms, of replicating genomes and splicing togehter new creatures adapted for each new world encountered. Tens of thousands of Tyranid warriors are carried aboard hive ships, the cocooned officers of nightmare hordes yet to be born.[
Each Hive ship carries "millions" of troops and tens of thousands of Tyranid Warriors (officers.). Each ship is also a factory that can build more troops at need.

Tyranid armour seems to be silicate in nature. This gives it highly good thermal resilence, though its reisstance to kinetic weaponry would be debatable.

Page 19
Tyranid cruiser class vessels represent a mixture of immature hive ships and overgrown escort drones.
Cruiser vessels in a Tyranid fleet. Again, we see that alot of classifications overlap

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Post by Ford Prefect » 2007-10-22 03:27am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Tyranids, for some odd reason, are well equipped for melee combat. In space. I know this is 40K and way back when they did this sort of thing, but nowadays it seems kinda.. crazy. Even for 40K. I mean its like Outlaw Star...
Well, they are just Tyranids, even if they are much, much larger than even the largest bio-titans. What's a Tyranid without a face full of snapping teeth?

There's also something quite cool about the picture of a bio-ship eating an escort, even if it is pretty goddamn insane from any other point of view. :)
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Post by fgalkin » 2007-10-22 04:00am

Well, IoM ships have extra-strong prows for ramming, so at least it's consistent in-universe. :)

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Post by NecronLord » 2007-10-22 04:24am

fgalkin wrote:Well, IoM ships have extra-strong prows for ramming, so at least it's consistent in-universe. :)
They really don't. There's an in-universe document that critisizes the orks for using such a foolish tactic, and calls the idea of a manned ramship unbelievable.

The 'armoured prow' does not indicate that ramming is considered a viable tactic. Simple-as.

In the Segmentum Obscurus it just happens to resemble one used in (RL) antiquity for such. There are other prows in use with the exact same function, which do not have the ramming bonuses. In universe, it's a tactic of the desperate captain whose ship is lost.


As for 'nids. They have the speed and ability to board enemy ships (far more common even among the Imperium than ramming) and their close combat weapons are designed to aid this in order to board enemy vessels and harvest their crew's sweet sweet genes for the hive mind.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-10-26 04:02am

Battlefleet Gothic magazine #12

Page 4
The reason for this change [in the huhll design of Voss pattern ships] is that on the Voss Forge World, knowledge of the ancient technology of magnetic containment fields (itself something of a dark-science throughout the Adeptus Mechanicus) which are used to keep the vat energies of the ships plasma reactor in check, is almost a lost art.

Magnetic field failure could be catstrophic for a warship, packed with fuel and munitions for its main weapons . Critical overheating could lead to a chain reaction, threatening the main magazines or eventually reactor meltdown. To avoid this the Voss pattern separates the plasma reactor and engine room from the main gun decks. Should the ship suffer a catastrophic field failure, the weakened midship corridor will break, containing the damage before the rest of the ship is affected.

Of course, any weak spot on the warship will soon be exploited by the enemy, so the midship corridor is protected by starboard and port defensive armour plates. THese huge plates of solid adamantine armour prevent enemy gunners targeting the weak spot and are thick enough to absorb hits from weapons batteries, lances, or torpedoes. Construction of the armour plates has become a hlalmark of the Voss forge world, the great slab-like rectangles can be seen circling the planet in low orbit. It has been found that the weak spot is still vulnerable to bomber attacks getting in close behind the armoured panels, or attacking from above or below. To counter this threat, the Endeavour is equipped with close defence turrets to drive off enemy bombers.

An unforseen side effect of the design is that the narrow corridor provides the two halves of the ship with an excellent defence against boarders.
Plasma reactors use "magnetic containment". Comment on the features and distinction of voss pattern vessels like those used in or around Armageddon.

Page 5
A side effect of the magnetic containment field problems is that the engines of the Endeavour class have been downgraded to avoid the extra stress and strain placed on the plasma reacotr when the ship is traveling at maximum speed. The outcome of this is that the Endeavour and its ilk are considered slow for their class, and cannot match the speeds of the more common Dauntless. This makes them less popular than the sleeker Dauntless as patrol vessels, but their heavy gun batteries mean they are well liked as ships of the line, used in the heart of battle.
Another feature of hte Voss-pattern vessels. They have weaker engines/lower thrust than vessels of a given class, but also more firepower. This again tells us that 40K ships go into battles with their power systems divided between engine sand weapons (and to some extent shields), ,rather than focusing "All power" into just one or the other (like a SW vessel might do more often than not.) The limitations of the Voss pattern lead to a different allocation of power, more being dumped towards the weapons, but less to the engines.

Page 5
As the attrition of months of combat started to weaken the fleet, replacements were sent, many from Voss.
Implies that replacement vessels for the Armageddon sector fleet took "months" to both arrive and be made. Gives us a rough estimate on FTL speed and construction capabilities of a Forge world, depending on how one plays that out.

At the very least, a Forge world like Voss can churn out a cruiser-scale vessel in well under a year. Contrast with a feral world taking a little over a decade to do so (a difference of 10-100 times, depending on how one defines "months.) Given my previous estimates for the number of Forge Worlds in the Imperium, this means that the Forge Worlds alone could churn out many thousands of cruisers in under a year, potentially. This is probably not "all out" construction, given that the quote implies Voss can do this in the normal course of its activities. On the other hand, Voss is not neccsearily a "Typical" forge world either (then again, what is.)

Page 6

The Endeavour class, lacking the speed for anti-pirate operations, ,is preferred as a covnoy flagship or a heavy escrot to larger capital ships of the line. Its heavy gun batteries can almost match the firepower of larger cruisers and it is capable of holding its own in the midst of a pitched battle.
Endeavours are light cruisers but pack nearly as much firepower of a heavier cruiser.

Page 6-7
as the Armageddon Wars went on, the increasing toll in the Imperial Navy inevitably created the need for Voss to carry out repairs, refits, and wholesale reconstructions on a variety of vessels. Many such vessels were reconfigured to bear the Aquila prow, giving rise to a number of vessels of existing classes fabricated in the Voss pattern.
"wholesale reconstrtuctions" may imply the practice of salvaging the hulks of starships and rebuilding them into operational order, somethign commonly done in the Imperium as a time-saving measure. (other racecs like the Orks do it as well./)

Page 7
Operating in this manner [One Endurance light cruiser plus 2-3 Endevaour light cruisers], the Ad Liberis was responsible for the destruction of nine Ork escorts as the War for Armageddon began above the high-g world of Pelucidar during a savage three-hour engagement before being ordered to withdraw by Admiral Parol.
"three hour" battle between nine Ork escort ships and a handful of light cruisers.

PAge 26
One of the planets in the sub-sector completes its capital ship construction project. The Planetary Governor presents your fleet with a brand new cruiser.
This is off of a game chart, so it may count as game mechanics, but it implies that many planets (Feral, Feudal, or other more advanced) can create at least cruiser-grade vessels with their available facilities.

Page 27
An Inquisitor calls for an Exterminatus immediately. The next time you win initiative you will fight an Exterminatus scenario as the attacker. The Inquisition sends one of its ships along ot help. Treat the ship as a Dauntless class light cruiser with an Exterminatus weapon in the prow.
Light cruisers can do exterminatus, at least as per the exterminatus scenario. This is gameplay, so it may be considered conservative. We already could surmise from BFG that light cruisers could do so (they fall under the minimal definition of a "capital ship") of course, but this is a nice confirmation. Then again, the above also notes that this is an Inquisitorial ship, and those are notoriously more powerful than others.

Besides, we know in the fluff, for example, that Cobra class destroyers can conduct exterminatus with the right loadout too.

Page 30
The Craftworld cedes control of one of its colonies to you. Gain control of a hidden Craftworld colony adjacent to your baes. This counts as an agri-world and can be discovered like a pirate base and captured.
Eldar craftworld maintain planetary colonies around the galaxy, which seem to qualify as agri-worlds. Whether these are Exodite worlds or something else isn't specified. One may assume that these places serve as sources of food for the Eldar on craftworlds.


[Page 30
Seers have studied yoru upcoming battle for centuries. You may choose the size, type and location for your next scenario.
Farseer precog extends into centuries at least (average?)

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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-10-30 07:12pm

A few small additions regarding Las weapons from the Munitorum manual and a line from Only In Death.
Munitorum Manual.
Power Packs, Pg61
Used conservatively, a laser powerpack will last for many shots (typically around one hundred and fifty)
Some other sources mentioned have included capacities hundreds as well which doesn't really seem to fit with events in the novels, however the lasgun entry an extra detail which helps clear these up.

Lasgun Pg60
Firing single shots is more accurate and provides more shots
Full auto actually drains more power per shot which is why the estimated capacities tend to be much lower.
So conservative fire means low power at single shot, which is unlikely to happen outside a shooting range.

The last pieces comes from the musings of Larkin about his Long Las.
Only In Death, Pg29
Kill-shot at four thousand metres. He'd managed that once or twice.
Their is enough power range and accuracy in a Long Las for a skilled marksman to make a kill at 4km. While I don't know much about fire arms, if any modern rifle can match this I would be very surprised.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-10-31 04:08am

Thanks, but I'd prefer holding off on these TOO much because eventually I plan to cover the Ghosts novels and such, and I will probably cover the Munitorum manual when it comes out. And when I do, they'll be in dedicated threads.

In any event..
Lost Soal wrote:A few small additions regarding Las weapons from the Munitorum manual and a line from Only In Death.
Munitorum Manual.
Power Packs, Pg61
Used conservatively, a laser powerpack will last for many shots (typically around one hundred and fifty)
Some other sources mentioned have included capacities hundreds as well which doesn't really seem to fit with events in the novels, however the lasgun entry an extra detail which helps clear these up.
Prior to this most powerpacks were good for between 40-60 shots, depending on your source. The highest I'd seen was in "13th Legion" where a lasgun had "fifteen seconds" wortth of fire. The rate of fire was stated to be 5 shots/sec, but the gun also made half a dozen shots with a trigger pull, and was implied to be dozens. So it was at least 75-80, but possibly more.

The only "hundreds of shots" examples I could think of were the backpacks for hotshot lasguns and hellguns.

The novels usually are harder to measure beause they give no specific shot counts. The closest I've ever come is when full auto bursts seem to rapidly drain the pack (mainly in the Cain novels like Caves of Ice, but elsewhere too.)

Ultimately, it will seem that power setting swill play a role here. I should note in storm of iron a max-power laspistol was good for only 3-4 shots (whereas normally it might be good for 20-30 easily.)

"Variable settings" also probably explains somewhat why some lasguns seem to blast massive chunks out of people, and then don't do nearly that nastily elsewhere (such as only cauterizing Feygor's neck.)
Lasgun Pg60
Firing single shots is more accurate and provides more shots
Full auto actually drains more power per shot which is why the estimated capacities tend to be much lower.
So conservative fire means low power at single shot, which is unlikely to happen outside a shooting range.
Why do you say "per shot"? That actually seems counter-intuitive. What I derive that as meaning as that lasguns simply don't "spray and pray" on single shot - they allow for you to more precisely place your shots without wasting them.

If anything, single shots probably should have the potential to be MORE powerful (but again this probably depends ultimately on setting.) In terms of sustained fire "wattage" (energy per second), you can maybe spit off (depending on ROF) anywhere from 3 up to 10+ shots on full auto, whereas on single shot you might arguably get 2-4 shots a second (trigger pulla nd reflexes, ,though arguably 40K humans have better reflexes, so this could be higher.) For the same wattage, that allows for the "single shots" to be arguably more powerful. Hell it might even get more complicated if you expect them to deliver the energy in very short timeframes from the wattage perspective...

And we actually see "single shots" used in fighting. Its quite common in the Ghosts novels, Cain novels, and elsewhere like the various Guard novels (IE fifteen hours, Rebel Winter, ,etc.) Its mainyl used at longer ranges, whereas "full auto" is saved for close-up work.
The last pieces comes from the musings of Larkin about his Long Las.
Only In Death, Pg29
Kill-shot at four thousand metres. He'd managed that once or twice.
Their is enough power range and accuracy in a Long Las for a skilled marksman to make a kill at 4km. While I don't know much about fire arms, if any modern rifle can match this I would be very surprised.
To get multi-km ranges you generally need very large-calibre rifles, like a .50 BMG sniper rifle. 7.62mm sniper rifles typcially won't go out more than 800-1000 meters or so IIRC. Even the .50 calibre rifles typically don't hit out to much more than a mile (though it has been known for skilled sniprs to hit out further.. in 2002 a Canadian sniper made a 2400 meter kill shot with a .50 BMG sniper rifle.) To reliably reach out to 2+ km though, you generally need a 14.5mm or larger round, and even then that's unusual (2.5 km would be tops.)

What's more, those are HEAVY sniper rifles - the ones designed particualriyl for heavy duty armour-piercing duties and whatnot. I doubt the long-las is even remotely comparable to something like that.

So basically a long-las in a skilled sniper's hands is between 2-4x longe ranged than a modern rifle. As a side note, you can generally expect a regular rifle to have roughly 1/2 (7.62mm or .308) to 1/3 (most .50 BMG) the range of a sniper rifle for precision shots, and probably comaprable range against groups (Point target vs area taget IIRC. For example, an M-16 has a point target range around 450-500 meters, and an area target of around 800-900 meters.)

This would mean you could probably expect a regular lasgun to hit a "point target" at between one and a half to two kilometers, and "Area targets" of around 3-4 km, roughly.

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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-10-31 02:48pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:A few small additions regarding Las weapons from the Munitorum manual and a line from Only In Death.
Munitorum Manual.
Power Packs, Pg61
Used conservatively, a laser powerpack will last for many shots (typically around one hundred and fifty)
Some other sources mentioned have included capacities hundreds as well which doesn't really seem to fit with events in the novels, however the lasgun entry an extra detail which helps clear these up.
Prior to this most powerpacks were good for between 40-60 shots, depending on your source. The highest I'd seen was in "13th Legion" where a lasgun had "fifteen seconds" wortth of fire. The rate of fire was stated to be 5 shots/sec, but the gun also made half a dozen shots with a trigger pull, and was implied to be dozens. So it was at least 75-80, but possibly more.
I was remembering quotes from the primer thread, however I've now found them and it turns out they were quotes from the Munitorum Manual.
Bad Memory.:evil:
Lasgun Pg60
Firing single shots is more accurate and provides more shots
Full auto actually drains more power per shot which is why the estimated capacities tend to be much lower.
So conservative fire means low power at single shot, which is unlikely to happen outside a shooting range.
Why do you say "per shot"? That actually seems counter-intuitive. What I derive that as meaning as that lasguns simply don't "spray and pray" on single shot - they allow for you to more precisely place your shots without wasting them.

If anything, single shots probably should have the potential to be MORE powerful (but again this probably depends ultimately on setting.) In terms of sustained fire "wattage" (energy per second), you can maybe spit off (depending on ROF) anywhere from 3 up to 10+ shots on full auto, whereas on single shot you might arguably get 2-4 shots a second (trigger pulla nd reflexes, ,though arguably 40K humans have better reflexes, so this could be higher.) For the same wattage, that allows for the "single shots" to be arguably more powerful. Hell it might even get more complicated if you expect them to deliver the energy in very short timeframes from the wattage perspective...
The reading of it says to me that Full Auto fire gives physically fewer shot from a power pack than Semi-Auto, which to me means that more power is drained with each shot in full auto. The most likely reason which occurs to me is that the efficiency of the power transfer drops when full auto is utilised, not that the shots are more powerful which I think is what you believe I was suggesting.
And we actually see "single shots" used in fighting. Its quite common in the Ghosts novels, Cain novels, and elsewhere like the various Guard novels (IE fifteen hours, Rebel Winter, ,etc.) Its mainyl used at longer ranges, whereas "full auto" is saved for close-up work.
I know they do use single shot but they very rarely maintain it for an entire clip, so 150 shots per clip never really materialises.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-11-02 03:52am

Lost Soal wrote: The reading of it says to me that Full Auto fire gives physically fewer shot from a power pack than Semi-Auto, which to me means that more power is drained with each shot in full auto.
Except that makes no sense. For one thing, how does that hold true when you pop in variable settings, which we know as a fact exist?

The only poossible way that the above could make sense is if it fires a continous beam and you think of it in terms of "fractions of a second" of discharge or something. But that really won't work either unless you put it in the context of "shots" as well. (A shot being a one second burst or something.)

And then its still basically what I'm getting at. In semi-automatic (IE single shot) you're limited to one bolt per pull of the trigger. In auto you can pull the trigger and let off multiple bolts. It comes out to the same thing.

Think of it this way. You have a rifle with a ROF of around 900 RPM (about what an M-16 can do.) On semi-auto, you might manage 4 shots a second. On full auto, you're effectively delivering 2.5x more firepower, using up power 2.5x as fast - which means fewer shots than single shot.

This doesnt neccearily factor in wattage though (how quickly a shot is delivered can have an influence on raw damage.)
The most likely reason which occurs to me is that the efficiency of the power transfer drops when full auto is utilised, not that the shots are more powerful which I think is what you believe I was suggesting.
Err, so if its losing energy due to a less-effiicnet pwoer transfer, where does that energy go? The lasguns don't have any large/noticable heat sinks and that excess energy would have to be gotten rid of somewhere. (And bear in mind this can be a lot of energy, and disposing of too much of it would pose a risk.)
I know they do use single shot but they very rarely maintain it for an entire clip, so 150 shots per clip never really materialises.
Have you ever tried reading the novels with an eye towards keeping track? I generally make a habit out of that by instinct now, and I've rarely been able to accurately count the number of shots "per pack". REally, since setting plays the biggest role in number of shots, it isn't a big inconsistency. IF anything its probably a bigger advantage for the lasgun.

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-11-02 04:04am

Page 4
Unlike the roks and hulks upon which they had previously relied for their larger vessels the Orks now boasted ships of a size comaprable to the largest of Imperial cruisers, rivalling the size even of an Imperial Battleship.
Some Ork vessles (non Rok or non hulk constructs) are comaprable to cruiser or battleship-scale vessels. Roks and space hulks, of course, can easily be battleship sized or greater.

Page 4
Like the Orks themselves, amongst the Hammers a few vessels grew ancient and bloated to such a degree that their sheer size defied any description other than the rather imposing nomenclature of "battleship" Though far too varied in design to represent a class as such, no less than four such "battleship-sized" vessels were prominent within the Orkmada during the Third Armageddon War.
Again, orks have built "Battleship-scale" vessels.

Page 5
Intelligence reports indicate that Hammer class battlekroozers are built on the hulks of wrecked Imperial Captial ships, most specifically those which were armed with nova cannon in their previous incarnations.
In the stats they are equipped with prow "bombardment cannon" or torpedoes. This seems to suggest that the two weapons are related in some ways. One similarity would be calibre/bore size (they fire similarily sized shells.)

Page 5
Mekaniak Garzog's ingenious solution was to rig up parts of the Nova cannon conduits to big tubular launchas that could either fire torpedoes or heavy bombardment shells.
Again there seems to be some similarities between nova cannon or bombardment cannon. And, surprisingly, torpedoes as well. This may suggest that bombardment shells are similar in size/shape to torpedoes. And that some nova cannon shells are (or possibly that some torpedoes/bombardment cannon are nova cannon scale.)

Assuming the two facts established above are true, we can (Because we know Bombardment cannon and Nova cannon velcoities) estimate cannon masses.

For the consevative calcs, ,we'll go with the BFG mentioned "two hundred foot" torpedo, which would be ~60 meters long. Assuming that the diameter is ~1/4 to 1/5 the length of the weapon would yield a diameter of around 12-15 meters. To be further conservative, assume a density equal to water (yeah, I'm being ultra conservative here.) The mass of the torpedo in question would be between 6,800 and 10,600 tons.

For a bombardment cannon (.25c as per Execution hour) the KE is between 2e22 and 3.13e22 joules. Momentum is between 5.27e14 kg*m/s and 8.21e14 kg*m/s.

For a nova cannon (near c, let's say .9c) KE is between 7.92e23 and 1.24e24 joules. Momentum is between 4.21e15 kg*m/s and 6.6e15 kg*m/s.

Of course, BFG also mentions "skyscraper" sized torpedoes, which suggests that "not all torpedoes are the same. According to here, skyscrapers in Chicago can vary from as little as 60 meters to up to 300+ meters. 150-200 meters seems average. According to the [dubious] Wikipedia entry on skyscrapers indicates that a lower limit of 150 meters may be "loosely" applied to skysrapers.

In any case, I'll assume around 150 meter long "torpedo" (Execution Hour mentions 100 meter long torpedoes, so this seems plausible.) using the similar variables above, we can define the diameter as being somewher ebetween 30 and 37.5 meters in diameter (call it 38m) This leads to a mass of around 106,000 and 170,000 tons.

For a bombardment cannon: the KE is between 3.13e23 and 5e23 joules. Momentum is between 8.21e15 kg*m/s and 1.32e16 kg*m/s.

For a Nova cannon: the KE is between 1.24e25 and 1.98e25 joules. Momentum is between 6.6e16 kg*m/s and 1.05e17 kg*m/s.

Note that given the extrem masses of the projectiles involved, it seems likely that nova cannon and bombardment cannon are probably not designed for continuous use during battle, but are rather specialized weapons. Also, KE is not their PRIMARY damage component, both weapons are designed to deliver explosive payloads. We might consider the KE figure to be a lower limit on the explosive payload, especially for Nova cannon (which can hit either a single target or multiple targets.)

An amusing side note regarding the nova cannon, if you use an estimated mass or acceleration (accelerations are more known than masses are) one could probably figure out one or the other. For example, assuming accelrations in the thousands of gees range (say 4000 gees) you can yield a ship mass of between roughly 100 million and 2.5 billion tons, depending on the calc you use. Sincee nova cannon are generally on cruisers and battlecruisers, this would tell us (roughly) the mass of such vessels, since the recoil of nova cannon shots are meant to be countered by the recoil of a ship's engines. (its also the engine output which helps us determine that nova cannon output corresponds to power generation to within an order of magnitude.)

Page 14
Kisher draemed of a ship class that was as fast as alight cruiser but carried the firepower of a battleship.

...

The techmagii protested in vain that severe comrpomises were inherent in the class' internal compartmentalisation and back-up redundancy in vital systems, especially the power distrtibution grid.

...

The problem was that because they were as large as battleships, were armed like battleships, and looked like battleships, tacticians were tempted to use them as battleships. In the battle-line they proved horribly vulnerable; fast battleships could dish it out but not take it.
This seems to be a parallel to the real life development of battlecruisers, amusingly. It also highlights that design compromise and tradeoffs they built a battleship hull wiht battleship weapons, but apparently lightened it and removed some of the extra systems to make it lgihter and faster, sacrificing armour to do so.)

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Post by Imperial Overlord » 2007-11-02 04:16am

In the BSG supplement on Armaggedon forces, there is a design of Ork battlecruiser that possess dual use weapon tubes that can load either heavy shells or torpedoes.
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-11-02 05:08am

Imperial Overlord wrote:In the BSG supplement on Armaggedon forces, there is a design of Ork battlecruiser that possess dual use weapon tubes that can load either heavy shells or torpedoes.
The Hammer class BattleKroozer? Yeah I think this is the same thing. They reprint alot of that stuff for BFG I've noted lol

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Post by Adrian Laguna » 2007-11-02 11:09pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:This seems to be a parallel to the real life development of battlecruisers, amusingly. It also highlights that design compromise and tradeoffs they built a battleship hull wiht battleship weapons, but apparently lightened it and removed some of the extra systems to make it lgihter and faster, sacrificing armour to do so.)
That would be the development of British battlecruisers. The German BCs were tough motherfuckers. Firstly their compartmentalization was better than that of the RN's ships. Secondly that the Germans made theirs faster by mounting slightly lighter guns rather than stripping the armour. That's why Royal Navy BCs had a nasty tendency to blow-up, and Kaiserliche Marine BCs took enough punishment to sink a battleship and still limped home.

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Post by Black Admiral » 2007-11-03 07:52am

Adrian Laguna wrote:That would be the development of British battlecruisers. The German BCs were tough motherfuckers. Firstly their compartmentalization was better than that of the RN's ships. Secondly that the Germans made theirs faster by mounting slightly lighter guns rather than stripping the armour. That's why Royal Navy BCs had a nasty tendency to blow-up, and Kaiserliche Marine BCs took enough punishment to sink a battleship and still limped home.
Actually, the main fault of our battle cruisers (shared by all British and German capital ships at the start of WW1) seems to have been vulnerability to cordite flash; SMS Sedylitz had two turrets burned out and was nearly destroyed by that cause at Dogger Bank, and Lion was almost destroyed by the same at Jutland.

While I don't think the actual cause is ever going to be known with certainty, I lean towards the cordite flash theory on account of a number of other ships being lost to that cause, and I find it difficult to credit that as being totally unrelated to the loss of Indefatigable, Queen Mary and Invincible. [/blatantly off-topic
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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-11-07 03:25am

BFG magainze #13

Page 4
Unlike the roks and hulks upon which they had previously relied for their larger vessels the Orks now boasted ships of a size comaprable to the largest of Imperial cruisers, rivalling the size even of an Imperial Battleship.
Some Ork vessles (non Rok or non hulk constructs) are comaprable to cruiser or battleship-scale vessels. Roks and space hulks, of course, can easily be battleship sized or greater.

Page 4
Like the Orks themselves, amongst the Hammers a few vessels grew ancient and bloated to such a degree that their sheer size defied any description other than the rather imposing nomenclature of "battleship" Though far too varied in design to represent a class as such, no less than four such "battleship-sized" vessels were prominent within the Orkmada during the Third Armageddon War.
Again, orks have built "Battleship-scale" vessels.

Page 5
Intelligence reports indicate that Hammer class battlekroozers are built on the hulks of wrecked Imperial Captial ships, most specifically those which were armed with nova cannon in their previous incarnations.
In the stats they are equipped with prow "bombardment cannon" or torpedoes. This seems to suggest that the two weapons are related in some ways. One similarity would be calibre/bore size (they fire similarily sized shells.)

Page 5
Mekaniak Garzog's ingenious solution was to rig up parts of the Nova cannon conduits to big tubular launchas that could either fire torpedoes or heavy bombardment shells.
Again there seems to be some similarities between nova cannon or bombardment cannon. And, surprisingly, torpedoes as well. This may suggest that bombardment shells are similar in size/shape to torpedoes. And that some nova cannon shells are (or possibly that some torpedoes/bombardment cannon are nova cannon scale.)

Assuming the two facts established above are true, we can (Because we know Bombardment cannon and Nova cannon velcoities) estimate cannon masses.

For the consevative calcs, ,we'll go with the BFG mentioned "two hundred foot" torpedo, which would be ~60 meters long. Assuming that the diameter is ~1/4 to 1/5 the length of the weapon would yield a diameter of around 12-15 meters. To be further conservative, assume a density equal to water (yeah, I'm being ultra conservative here.) The mass of the torpedo in question would be between 6,800 and 10,600 tons.

For a bombardment cannon (.25c as per Execution hour) the KE is between 2e22 and 3.13e22 joules. Momentum is between 5.27e14 kg*m/s and 8.21e14 kg*m/s.

For a nova cannon (near c, let's say .9c) KE is between 7.92e23 and 1.24e24 joules. Momentum is between 4.21e15 kg*m/s and 6.6e15 kg*m/s.

Of course, BFG also mentions "skyscraper" sized torpedoes, which suggests that "not all torpedoes are the same. According to here, skyscrapers in Chicago can vary from as little as 60 meters to up to 300+ meters. 150-200 meters seems average. According to the [dubious] Wikipedia entry on skyscrapers indicates that a lower limit of 150 meters may be "loosely" applied to skysrapers.

In any case, I'll assume around 150 meter long "torpedo" (Execution Hour mentions 100 meter long torpedoes, so this seems plausible.) using the similar variables above, we can define the diameter as being somewher ebetween 30 and 37.5 meters in diameter (call it 38m) This leads to a mass of around 106,000 and 170,000 tons.

For a bombardment cannon: the KE is between 3.13e23 and 5e23 joules. Momentum is between 8.21e15 kg*m/s and 1.32e16 kg*m/s.

For a Nova cannon: the KE is between 1.24e25 and 1.98e25 joules. Momentum is between 6.6e16 kg*m/s and 1.05e17 kg*m/s.

Note that given the extrem masses of the projectiles involved, it seems likely that nova cannon and bombardment cannon are probably not designed for continuous use during battle, but are rather specialized weapons. Also, KE is not their PRIMARY damage component, both weapons are designed to deliver explosive payloads. We might consider the KE figure to be a lower limit on the explosive payload, especially for Nova cannon (which can hit either a single target or multiple targets.)

An amusing side note regarding the nova cannon, if you use an estimated mass or acceleration (accelerations are more known than masses are) one could probably figure out one or the other. For example, assuming accelrations in the thousands of gees range (say 4000 gees) you can yield a ship mass of between roughly 100 million and 2.5 billion tons, depending on the calc you use. Sincee nova cannon are generally on cruisers and battlecruisers, this would tell us (roughly) the mass of such vessels, since the recoil of nova cannon shots are meant to be countered by the recoil of a ship's engines. (its also the engine output which helps us determine that nova cannon output corresponds to power generation to within an order of magnitude.)

Page 14
Kisher draemed of a ship class that was as fast as alight cruiser but carried the firepower of a battleship.

...

The techmagii protested in vain that severe comrpomises were inherent in the class' internal compartmentalisation and back-up redundancy in vital systems, especially the power distrtibution grid.

...

The problem was that because they were as large as battleships, were armed like battleships, and looked like battleships, tacticians were tempted to use them as battleships. In the battle-line they proved horribly vulnerable; fast battleships could dish it out but not take it.
This seems to be a parallel to the real life development of battlecruisers, amusingly. It also highlights that design compromise and tradeoffs they built a battleship hull wiht battleship weapons, but apparently lightened it and removed some of the extra systems to make it lgihter and faster, sacrificing armour to do so.)

BFG magazine #14

PAge 2
The Apocalypse [battleship] comes equipped with three deadly lance batteries on each broadside, providing it with much more of a direct punch than most battleships.
3 lance "batteries" per broadside is considered to be more than most other battleships No idea if a "battery" means a single array (which is triple or quad mounted as it is) or multiple ones.

Page 5
In preparing the Armageddon system for invasion, the Imperial Navy set many deadly traps for the marauding Orks. One of the most common of these were salvos of torpedoes, hard-wired to home in on any approaching ships. The friend or foe systems of these weapons were disabled when deployed, to avoid any danger of the Orks interfering with their mechanisms and turning the torpedoes to their own devious use.
It does not seem unusual for Imperial torpedoes to have their own homing/guidancee systems ("Friend or foe" implies active seeking/target discrimination").


Page 5
The previous space battles around Armageddon have left manyn ships broken and shattered, destined to orbit the sun for millenia. However, the burnt out hulks are still considered to be a valuable prize for both sids in the war and their capture is always rewarded by any Admiral's or Warboss' superior.
Both the Orks and Imperium make it a habit to salvage and restore burnt out hulks. Thius is a testament to the design of Imperium warships and their durability.

Page 13
The superior technologies used to construct the multiple lance turrets on the Apocalypse have now all but been forgotten and so the small number of examples of this ship can never be replaced.
Apparently the "six lance" batteries are no longer do-able on Imperium ships.

Page 13

It has been noted that these lance arrays [Apocalypse class BB] are fully capable of operating at much greater ranges by an engineering process that greatly increases the load-bearing capabilities of their main power relays. However, the array conduits themselves become notoriously unreliable when stressed this far and run away power drains can easily start to sap energy from the ship's main drives, making the Apocalypse sluggish in the midst of a battle. Thus almost all existing Apocalypse class battleships keep their lance armament limited to medium ranges.
Lance batteries can extend their range by increasing the power draw from the reactor to the weapons arrays (and by sacrificing power to the engines.) Again it reflects how design tradeoffs play a role in ship design and the bestowing of particular capabilities.


Page 15
Almost without exception, Armageddon class ships [BC] are built from the recovered hulls of crippled Lunar class vessels, making them one of the easiest battlecruisers to construct. though many fleet commanders have proved unwilling to sacrifice large numbers of their main front line cruiser.
Battlecruisers are similar in size/mass to Lunar class cruisers, which would put them roughly in the 3-4 km range. And again, recovered hulks are often rebuilt as new ships.

Page 15
the decision was made not only to repair the venerable vessel [Lunar class cruiser], but to upgrade it to battlecruiser standards. Power relays were re-routed from the ship's main plasma reactors to provide a substantial increase in efficienciy for the existing weapons batteries, whilst long ranged lance turret arrays were built upon a modified dorsal spine. This alone gave the ship much greater punch at medium ranges and the ability to engage at distance. An immediate drawback became obvious as nearly three and a half thousand extra crewmen had to be drafted in simply to man the additional weapons and to maintain the short-lived relays that powered them
Description of what separates a cruiser from a battlecruiser, and how a cruiser is upgraded to battlecruiser grade.

Note in particulare the 3500 extra crewmen. Assuming a Lunar has as imilar crew complement to a Dictator, this means nearly 14,000 crew for a battlecruiser.

PAge 17
During a conflict as wide-ranging and bloody as the Third Armageddon War, the Imperium inevitably called upon nearby Battlefleets for reserves to augment those operating already as part of the hastily assembled Battlefleet Armageddon.
Mention of other sector fleet "reserves"

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Post by Connor MacLeod » 2007-11-11 01:15am

Battlefleet Gothic magazine #15

PAge 13
Normally, the time that a daemon can spend in real space is severely limited. Without the power of the Warp to sustain it, then it will be diminished, gradually losing its stability before translating back to where it came from. This process can be prevented by ritual worship or by binding the daemon in an object or living thing. To know exactly how this is done is forbidden knowledge but it stands to reason that possessing a gerat ship would give a daemonic host greatly enhanced stability.
Discussion of the interaction of daemons with realspace, and the circumstancecs under which they can sustain themselves in normal space.

Page 18
The Seditio Opprimere was reduced to a near hulk at the Battle of Prandium. It was rebuilt as a gunship with powerful long-range plasma lances to give the Ultramarines stand-off fire support when fighting Tyrannids using the new fleet tactics. This severely compromised the ability of the barge to deploy trroops.
Mention of "plasma lances" - the third kind of lance (the other two being laser and fusion lances) I have seen for Imperium warships. It's also implied to be both mass/volume intensive and very long ranged/powerful (how much so isn't sure.)

Page 22
Battle Barges can deploy three companies of marines with support weapons and vehicles in a single drop.
It's not specified whether Battle BArges can carry MORE than 3 space marine companes, but they can deploy them (and their equipment) quite quickly, as noted. I don't think there'd be much reason to carry more than 3 companies though, since most Chapters only have a couple battel barges.

Page 22
Normally chapters would only possess two ro three of these crushing vessels but Ultramarines can field five as Ultramar traditionally depended on them for sector naval protection.
Chapters average 2-3 battle barges, but the Ultramarines have five. ITs also implied that because they provide their sector's own naval fleet, the Ultramarine's fleet is probably comparable in size to a battlefleet.

Page 22
Strike cruisers are marine rapid response vessels, usually with a full company of marines onboard and the equipment to get them on-planet immediately upon reaching the target.
Strike cruisers, as we already know, carry a company of Marines.

Page 22
The Ultramarines maintain a permanant fleet of ten strike cruisers, though this number has been known to increase as demand requires.
Average number of Space Marine Strike cruisers in the Ultramarines. I do have to wonder, however, why they would need more (and where they go when they reducec their numbers.)

BFG magazine #16

Page 4-5
In seconds, Urthwart became a victim of the aptly named Planet Killer - the world and all it had ever contained committed instantly to history by this greatest of Abbadon's machineries.
Planet is destroyed in "seconds" by the Planet killer. This probably qualifies as an "outlier" since usually it takes around half an hour to an hour to achieve that. Unless it was a very small planet, or unusual in some way. Given the warp/daemonic properties inherent in the Planet Killer, its also quite possible that some "Exceptionally fast" kills do occur, just like in a few cases we have exceptionally slow ones.

A second possibility is that something on the planet itself blew up. We know from the St Josemane's hope example that planetary powerplants can be rigged to blow up and mass-scatter a planet in an Exterminatus, so its possible that the Planet Killer can take advantage of this somehow.

Alternately, since IIRC this was durinb the 13th Black crusade, the Planet Killer may have simply been upgraded, and this just represents a vast improvement in its firepower.

PAge 20
There could never be enough warships to fortify all the millions of worlds in the galaxy that make up the Undying Emperor's domain, and some planetary populations may go decades or generations without once having the privelege of an Imperial Cruiser silently gliding into orbit overhead.
"millions of worlds" in the Imperium.

There could "never be enough warships to fortify all the millions of worlds" If we assume "fortify" means half a dozen vessels (sevearl cruisers and a number of escrots, ther could be no more than 12 million ships total, 1/3 of which cruisers. Note that there IS a differencec between "fortify" and "patrol" - a single cruiser or a flotilla of escorts could not realistically be considered sufficient to fned off any sizable naval force save pirates.

As far as the last part: "decades" or generations implies a visit of a cruiser once every 20-100 years. If we assume each planet is viisited in that timeframe once, this would mean between 20,000- 100,000 cruisers, minimum. At 10 million planets its 100,000-500,000 cruisers.

Page 20
Despite these portents of doom, Belis Corona was not without its defences. It is home to vast orbital dockyards, decomissioned ship reserve fields and repair facilities that dwarf even those of Armageddon's St. jowen's Dock in importance ot the security of the Imperium.
Seems to be a sector base if not the naval sector base. Has its own reserve fields as well as its own major shipyards (bigger than aRmageddon's which means they're significant.)

This also implies that reserve fleets and major yards are present at least one per every sector (thousands or tens of thousands of such yards in the Imperium, in addition to the Segmentum bases, whch are perhaps even bigger and the Forge world yards.) Given the probable size of such yards, we might anticipate hundreds of thousands, if not millions of additional vessels in shipyard reserves, easily.

page 28
Deep within the bowels of the ship, archaic weapons of unimaginable power hummed to life, and the Master of Gunnery personally supervised the loading of the awesome Nova cannon as gangs of men numbering in the dozens opened the thirty-meter wide breech to accept the massive, multi-ton shell being trundled into place by more lash-motivated gangs pulling on an enormous overhead gantry under the careful eye of gunnery chiefs and Mechanicus adepts.
This Nova cannon, mounted on a Victory-class battleship, is thirty metres in diameter. This is smaller than the fifty metre diameter Nova cannon mounted on a battleship in Warriors of Ultramar (then again that one traveled at barely 2% of c, whereas in BFG and Rennie's novel Shadow Point specify that nova cannons travel at near-c. Go figure.)

In any case, assuming a 30 meter diameter, 60 meter long cylinder the density of water traveling at .8c, the shell will mass about 42,500 tons (4.25e7 kg). At .8c the KE of the round is 2.55e24 joules. Momentum for the shell is 1.7e16 kg*m/s. This is very conservative, given that the projectile could arguably be longer (as noted, if the shell is of similar proportions to a torpedo, then it will be much more massive) and my absurdly low density (it should be at least several times as massive on density alone.)

The velocity could be much higher as well. At .9c the KE of a 42,000 ton shell goes up to 5e24 joules. (momentum 2.633e16 kg*m/s) At .99c the KE goes up to 2.33e25 joules (momentum of ~9e16 kg*m/s)

What I find also confusing is that, unlike a great many other weapons (bombardment cannon, lances, torpedoes, etc.) a nova cannon fires only a single shell. If Nova cannon come in different sizes (in a battleship you should be able to easily mount several nova cannon) why they can't do more than one smaller type. It would seem to make more sense for the weapon (especially if, as noted before, Nova cannon are of similar scale to Bombardment cannon or the larger kind of torpedo.) Heck, maybe they do, or it depends on ammo or design....

Note that given the recoils (momentum) above, we can estimate the accleerative capabilities of a warship. Assuming iron, 95% empty space, and a 7 km box (height/width 1/5 the length), the estimated mass of a battleship would be ~5e12 kg (5 billion tons) with a recoil between ~2e16 and 9e16 kg*m/s would be between 4,000 and 18,000 m/s^2. which again as I noted is very conservative for various reasons (the density of the shell alone could justify the accelerations being considerably higher.)

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Post by andrewgpaul » 2007-11-11 08:39am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Page 22
The Ultramarines maintain a permanant fleet of ten strike cruisers, though this number has been known to increase as demand requires.
Average number of Space Marine Strike cruisers in the Ultramarines. I do have to wonder, however, why they would need more (and where they go when they reducec their numbers.)
If the Ultramarines are using their fleet as the Ultramar sector fleet, then they'd quite possibly need more cruisers than those required simply to move Marines around. As for what happens to them, either mothballed ships aren't counted in the fleet numbers, or they simply don't always immediately replace ones that get blown up.
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Post by Teleros » 2007-11-11 09:42am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Page 22
Normally chapters would only possess two ro three of these crushing vessels but Ultramarines can field five as Ultramar traditionally depended on them for sector naval protection.
Chapters average 2-3 battle barges, but the Ultramarines have five. ITs also implied that because they provide their sector's own naval fleet, the Ultramarine's fleet is probably comparable in size to a battlefleet.
Reading that quote, it looks more like the Ultramarines are responsible for the defence of Ultramar, not the entire sector.
Connor MacLeod wrote: Page 22
The Ultramarines maintain a permanant fleet of ten strike cruisers, though this number has been known to increase as demand requires.
Average number of Space Marine Strike cruisers in the Ultramarines. I do have to wonder, however, why they would need more (and where they go when they reducec their numbers.)
I'm just wondering what those ten strike cruisers are for. Is it a permanent fleet used for deploying Ultramarines around? Ten would be just the right number given the number of companies. It'd also explain how they can get more easily - simply borrow a few from the Ultramar defence fleet or wherever.

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Post by Lost Soal » 2007-11-11 11:00am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Page 18
The Seditio Opprimere was reduced to a near hulk at the Battle of Prandium. It was rebuilt as a gunship with powerful long-range plasma lances to give the Ultramarines stand-off fire support when fighting Tyrannids using the new fleet tactics. This severely compromised the ability of the barge to deploy trroops.
Mention of "plasma lances" - the third kind of lance (the other two being laser and fusion lances) I have seen for Imperium warships. It's also implied to be both mass/volume intensive and very long ranged/powerful (how much so isn't sure.)
An example of the Ultramarines being given some lax, as the Navy really hates the idea of marines having lances on their ships, and an actual gunship is something their not meant to have.
Page 22
The Ultramarines maintain a permanant fleet of ten strike cruisers, though this number has been known to increase as demand requires.
Average number of Space Marine Strike cruisers in the Ultramarines. I do have to wonder, however, why they would need more (and where they go when they reducec their numbers.)
Not every mission requires an entire company to be deployed but they may still require the support of a strike cruiser.
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Post by Luzifer's right hand » 2007-11-11 11:31am

Connor MacLeod wrote: Why? SBoth SW ion engines and 40K plasma engines (For example) have been described as being basically a reaction drive. Given that for analysis to work under SoD the principles of rocketry in those universes must remain consistent with how they are for us, its quite entirely possible for us to use those principles to perform calculations. (Some of the assumptions may be unrealistic, ,such as efficiencies or perforamnce parameters, since IIRC RL ion engines are nowhere near as powerful as SW ion engines are.) but that's won't affect or ability to derive numbers.

only something absurd like "mass lightening" can alter the calc.
Ships which need insane amounts of reactions mass are not very realistic.
Of course more realistic than "mass lightening" but only in hard universes with realistic acceleration capabilities. In WH40k they already need technobble to avoid people getting pulped.

Also a reaction drive does not necessarily have to do anything with how much power a vessel has available. Nuclear pulse propulsion for example.
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