Caves of Ice Battleship bombardment calc: Revised edition

[NecronLord]

There is also another possible factor, of course. The ever-mentioned "WAAGGH" effect that invokes such subtle effects like "Red ones go faster". Maybe the torpedoes "effectiveness" is partly in making the Orks think they are (didn't something like that get proposed for autoguns in the Caves of Ice thread? Autoguns are effective against orks because they think big bangs are more effective?)

I believe it's also mentioned in Armegeddon Ork Hunters fluff. But stopping a torpedo's explosion is far beyond what the waagh power has generally been seen to do.

Actually, the temperatures and pressures involved are not generated, in this scenario, by any intelligent agency at all, but simply by gravity and sunlight.

If you have managed to generate enough of a greenhouse effect to boil the oceans,

What oceans? Sigma Orichalae appears to be like Hoth. All covered in ice. Making it much harder. Look up "latent heat of fusion" and how it applies to ice.

What's more, the Necrons were miles undergound in an armoured bunker. Like they... always are. Necrons either "live" in armoured bunkers deep underground or on board their titanic and near impregnable starships.

then those oceans become part of the atmosphere - as does the CO2 locked up in carbonate rocks, which are unstable at that sort of temperature.

Ignoring that the initial temperature was so low that fighting on Sigma Orichalae required the dispatch of the galactic Imperium of Man's finest ice-fighting men.

It is thought that Venus has roughly the same amount of carbon as does Earth - the difference being that here it is locked up in various sorts of solid matter whereas on Venus it is all in the air. Venus has very little water, because solar ultraviolet splits it into oxygen and hydrogen, and an Earth-sized planet can't hold onto hydrogen for very long. Where the oxgen went is a good question with (AFAIK) an unknown answer.

As for proof of those figures, well, I can't provide them without doing it - but a Google search for "runaway greenhouse" ought to go somewhere.

On the subject of nanotech; well, I think that there is little doubt that replicating nanoassemblers are possible. A real-world example might be the flu virus. Another rather more complex example; look in the mirror.

We are talking here about nanites with two very simple programs - replicate, and make this simple molecule. Not about the sort of nanites that make a biological being into something that is immortal and regenerates.

You're still ignoring that a necron could waltz around in that unkind enviroment as easily as I can go out on a crisp autumn day.

This is a necron. It has no organic parts. It is made by and part of a species millions of years beyond our comprehension. It is capable of effortlessly resisting sustained megajoule level thermal energies.

[kinnison]

All that starting with a snowball means is that it takes longer for the crust to melt.

I know about "latent heat of fusion". I also know that it is a hell of a lot lower than "latent heat of vapourisation". The power available is about 1.25e17W, by my calculations, perhaps a little less for an ice planet.

Or in slightly different terms about a hundred million gigawatts.

Yes, it would take a while. And?

There is a strong school of thought that a weak form of this happened about 600 million years ago on Earth, powered entirely by sunlight (which was weaker then) - a snowball turning into a world with an average temp of about 50 deg C.

[Plushie]

[quote=]On the subject of nanotech; well, I think that there is little doubt that replicating nanoassemblers are possible. A real-world example might be the flu virus. Another rather more complex example; look in the mirror. [/quote]

The Influenza virus cannot reproduce itself without infecting another living cell. No virus can, for that matter, which is why it's so contested whether virii are living organisms or not.

Nano-engineering is very possible, we do it today. "Grey goo", of sci-fi lore isn't. There are very hard physical limits of the durability of these mechanisms and there are also several problems to do with such things as programming and powering them.

[NecronLord]

Yes, it would take a while. And?

The necrons have ships. They have a stargate on the planet. They have far superior nanotechnological skills, and finally, they're completely immune to what you're suggesting.

IT WILL NOT WORK.

[Cykeisme]

For any that might not know, CFCs are the most potent greenhouse gas known - far more than CO2 or methane.

Excuse me, but if I'm not mistaken, CFCs are not greenhouse gases.

They're harmful because they react with Earth's ozone layer, not because they trap heat in the atmosphere.

[PainRack]

Um, unless you're talking about the 56-Izar incident (the bombardment before virus bombing was meant to take out the Saruthi structures, which makes sense.), I don't get your point. "firebombing" is tied to virus bomb attacks - its the massive organic decomposition via life-eater virus that creates the chemical gas that leads to the firestorms.

I was talking about Exterminatus being a more extreme form of destruction than what is seen in Caves of Ice.

Wh40k possess the ability to turn a planet to ash and dust, but exterminatus does not automatically suggest this.

Moreover, the only bit I can think of that possibly applies to the "re-settlement" is the specific statements in the Wargear/battle manual stuff from early first and second edition 40K game materials. That was not, however, explicitly stated to be Exterminatus-related, but simply from virus bombing. From those same sources, it is quite evident that they considered it possible to virus-bomb a planet on much smaller/localized scales - Virus bombs were not, IOW, "exterminatus-only" weapons (at least then.) Hell you could have man protable grenades and missiles equipped with virus bombs. (Cities even had such ordnance, at least according to 13th Legion.)

IT can be further ntoed that that "virus bomb" reference does not seem to be the same as the "firegas-creating, self-consuming/destroying" type virus bombs, so they may very well be a separate kind of weapon entirely.

You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about Exterminatus being conducted via virus bombs only. I was talking specifically about the level of destruction in Exterminatus. Its sole designation is to remove all life on a planet. This may be done via planetary annihialiation or other lesser means.
From what I understand from that paragraph,you suggested that Exterminatus is a more extreme form of destruction than seen here.

Would you have an exact source for this, perchance? Its possible that some exterminatus (low level) aren't total extinction, but the only sourcec I can really recall offhand is Tactica Imperialis (and that still doesn't apply here, because those attacks render planets uninhabitable for MILLENIA, not generations.)

I'm not aware of any direct retcon of the old data..
From Codex Imperialis, section Inquisition

Such is the high level of secrecy concerning the existence of daemons that planets cleansed by the Grey Knights are usually scoured to remove all trace of human life. This is known as the Exterminatus.

For the colony bit though, I'm afraid its picked up from some fluff long ago that I don't possess........ I don't think I can back this up. Perhaps a concession from me would be best.

[Connor MacLeod]

I believe it's also mentioned in Armegeddon Ork Hunters fluff. But stopping a torpedo's explosion is far beyond what the waagh power has generally been seen to do.

For an individual ork, maybe. But given that they can tie up Ork Psykers as a frigging lance weapon (as I remember), its probably not THAT implausible. Hell, if Tyranids can survive certain kinds of (sterilizing or atmoshpere destroying) exterimnatus, I fail to see why Orks cna't make an asteroid more durable.

[Connor MacLeod]

All that starting with a snowball means is that it takes longer for the crust to melt.

I know about "latent heat of fusion". I also know that it is a hell of a lot lower than "latent heat of vapourisation". The power available is about 1.25e17W, by my calculations, perhaps a little less for an ice planet.

Or in slightly different terms about a hundred million gigawatts.

Yes, it would take a while. And?

There is a strong school of thought that a weak form of this happened about 600 million years ago on Earth, powered entirely by sunlight (which was weaker then) - a snowball turning into a world with an average temp of about 50 deg C.

So basically you've just taken Darkstar's "Mysterious unknown mechanism", slapped nanowank onto it, and then said "it works?" You've continually demonstrated a reluctance to be specific about your little theory, you haven't provided any sources to back it up (evidently, we're supposed to do the work for you. I suggest you go back and check which site you are posting on.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I was talking about Exterminatus being a more
extreme form of destruction than what is seen in Caves of Ice.

Wh40k possess the ability to turn a planet to ash and dust, but exterminatus does not automatically suggest this.

Yes, I am aware they have planet destroying weaponry or capabilities (St Josemane's hope in the 13th Black crusade.) But last I remember, those qualifed as Extermionatus as well (St Josemaine's hope did, at least.) Again, I fail to seee how the known examples are contradicting what I am saying.

And yes, in general Exterminatus is far more destructive than what is seen in Caves of Ice. At the best, a planet will be unable to sustain life for millenia, and by all accounts even after it is its largely useless or can only sustain minimal populations. This is, however, STILL far in excess of the mere "generations" Cain speaks of, so it doesn't alter my essential point much.

You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about Exterminatus being conducted via virus bombs only. I was talking specifically about the level of destruction in Exterminatus. Its sole designation is to remove all life on a planet. This may be done via planetary annihialiation or other lesser means.
From what I understand from that paragraph,you suggested that Exterminatus is a more extreme form of destruction than seen here.

Yes. The only evidence I have seen for it being "non permanant" is in Tactica Imperialis, and even there they said it was for "millenia", not generations (and being largely implied at that). But other sources also specify that Exterminatus ARE much more permanant than that, or effectively so. The magnitude of energy for that is giong to be far beyond what Caves of Ice is describing.

I'm not aware of any direct retcon of the old data..
From Codex Imperialis, section Inquisition

Such is the high level of secrecy concerning the existence of daemons that planets cleansed by the Grey Knights are usually scoured to remove all trace of human life. This is known as the Exterminatus.

Well, there's Tactica Imperialis (I'm going to have to type that up eventually.) There's BFG, where it says "all life" rather than just "human life" specifically. There's the various and numerous eaxmples of Exterminatus in various sources (I mentioned some of them.) If anything, having the planet remain habitable in any fashion after Exterminatus is probably unusual if not extraordinary (Tallarn might be a good example, I believe that was an Exterminatus.)


You don't really need to "retcon" that though. Wiping out "all traces of human life" can easily fall within the purview of the more extensive feats.

For the colony bit though, I'm afraid its picked up from some fluff long ago that I don't possess........ I don't think I can back this up. Perhaps a concession from me would be best.

If you can find it, be my guest. I'm in no rush.