Trekverse Earth vs the army of ghosts

[Zor]

Right after the Breen attack on San Fransico, something begins to happen in the star trek universe.

First, all around the world, people begin to see "ghosts" appearing, people begin look at the blury translucent humaniod forms with utter puzzlement until arround the globe the forms move into phalanxes and become solid and clear, reveiling an Army of Steel cybernetic beings. This is the Cybermen army that arrived in the main Whoverse in Army of Ghosts and regardless of being sent off course to a world without the Doctor, rose and Daleks to mess them up. Q also decides to fix the damage that the transition has done to the time/space continium, thus saving anything from getting sucked into the void.

Will the Federation be able to repulse the latest incarnation of what the Star Trek writers ripped the Borg off of or will the Federation be Upgraded?

Zor

[Elheru Aran]

The Cybermen are decent players in the Who-verse.

What do you have against the poor Trektards?

[Bounty]

The Cybermen are decent players in the Who-verse.

The Cybus Cyberman, however, go down against modern-day weapons.

[Stark]

They're also solid and metallic. It'd be pretty funny if a misused Stinger can kill a cyberman but phasers can't.

Given their scope to investigate and infiltrate before the main force arrives, I think the cybermen might be in with a chance. They face totally centralised defence and power networks, weather control computers, a disarmed population, and guns that can't penetrate packing crates. Their guns are enough to kill people and rapid fire: melee is useless due to electro-gauntlets. They appear to be able to cyber-convert pretty damn fast (within hours at most). Their infiltrators should be able to discover something about the nature of transporters, and anything a few redshirts can do cybermen can do better.

[K. A. Pital]

Still once the Federation realizes this, the cybermen will go down under projectile weapons, if the Fed beam ones aren't good enough. The Federation has replicator technology which is essentially since then a mass conveyor for any type of XX century to Trek-time weapons.

[Stark]

Except they never do that against the Borg, right? The cybermen are far more dangerous individually than borg, and they never, ever used projectile weapons against the borg. Certainly not in whatever time it takes for 5 million troops to conquer Earth in a universe where 2000 guys were going to be taking over Vulcan.

Of course, you can't use replicators without power anyway, and it's trivial to cut the whole planet's power. All those Cajun restaurant owners will be converted into new cybermen within a few hours anyway. LOL!

[K. A. Pital]

Except they never do that against the Borg, right?

Did they have a lot of land battles with the Borg? I don't recall. In space they don't use projectile weapons of sufficient power, perhaps because they suck and don't have one.

5,000,000 troops looks like a big number, but there's what, around 10 billion population? In the worst case the central UFP structures on Earth are quickly destroyed and Earth turns into a terminator-type guerilla-warfare reality.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Still once the Federation realizes this, the cybermen will go down under projectile weapons, if the Fed beam ones aren't good enough.

As Stark pointed out they didn't do it against the Borg, so why should they do it here?
In addition normal projectile weapons (guns) are fucking useless against the Cybermen, or did you miss a squad of infantry mens weapons bouncing off the Cybermen?
We've seen that it takes RPGs/Rockets (Whatever it was) to destroy them or unquantified super babble weapons specifically designed to destroy them, both of which are a fair deal beyond phasers (Which have been shown as pitifully ineffective against metal/packing crates).

The Federation has replicator technology which is essentially since then a mass conveyor for any type of XX century to Trek-time weapons.

When have we seen them use it to mass produce weaponry or equipment?
Or am I misunderstanding you and you mean to use it to transport weapons en mass? Do we have any examples of what quantity of in-animate equipment they can transport effectively?
Even so they'd need to build it and train people in how to use it (Rather than phasers), during which the Cybermen would doubtless be able to use it more effectively while increasing their numbers and incorporating Trek technology.
The only way I can see Trek winning is teleporting the Cybermen into space. However we've never seen Trek do that even against Klingons from smaller ranges, let alone the Cybermen with access to Teleportation technologies who will be inside shielded buildings.
Orbital bombardment is also out of the question with Trek morals (Let alone pin point action)

[NecronLord]

Trek morals are liable to be in for a shock when they find out that the cybermen are rather more brutal than the borg about their 'recruiting' - they'd open fire eventually, or at least, Picard (the textbook New Man) would. Additionally, I doubt the UFP would let the ghosts scout out the enviroment like Torchwood did.

However, theres' nothing stopping the UFP using their vastly superior mobility to destroy the cybusmen, here. While the Cybusmen are impressively numerical, they didn't even think of 'jacking some cars to get to Torchwood, they just marched. Therefore they're going to be pretty spread out.

[Bounty]

both of which are a fair deal beyond phasers (Which have been shown as pitifully ineffective against metal/packing crates).

And again with the fucking packing crates. I really wish someone would tell me where the hell this nugget came from and what the context was. I searched the database but it only spits out entries with craters.

The Cybermen were built with metals found on modern-day Earth. There's nothing to suggest that they somehow invented über-metals; they're bulletproof, but that's it. And need I remind you that they go down from simple electric shocks, like the one in the storage tunnel?

However we've never seen Trek do that even against Klingons from smaller ranges, let alone the Cybermen with access to Teleportation technologies who will be inside shielded buildings.

Since when do Cybermen have teleportation?

Besides, even if phasers are completely ineffective against robots built from salvaged kitchen appliances, there's still this trick.

[NecronLord]

The Cybermen were built with metals found on modern-day Earth. There's nothing to suggest that they somehow invented über-metals;

Actually, there is. According to the Cybus website, Lumic invented (read, ripped off of the remains of true Cybermen) a material called hypermetal.

[NecronLord]

Additional: on looking it up, the term is "high-contact metal" and it's not on the current cybus site, but it is supposedly mentioned in the newscast in Rise of the Cybermen, which I'm checking now.

[Bounty]

The Cybermen were built with metals found on modern-day Earth. There's nothing to suggest that they somehow invented über-metals;

Actually, there is. According to the Cybus website, Lumic invented (read, ripped off of the remains of true Cybermen) a material called hypermetal.

I didn't know that. That'll teach me to keep up with the spoof websites

[Stark]

And again with the fucking packing crates. I really wish someone would tell me where the hell this nugget came from and what the context was. I searched the database but it only spits out entries with craters.

You know all those gun battles where people hide behind crates? It's not helped by all the time anti-personell phaser shots barely burn the walls of a plush apartment or whatever. There's a specific VOY episode, I believe, where there's a major gunbattle in the shuttlebay with lots of 'can't hit them because they're behind a crate' jeapardy.

The Cybermen were built with metals found on modern-day Earth. There's nothing to suggest that they somehow invented über-metals; they're bulletproof, but that's it.

So what? Trek starships are built from naturally occurring minerals: it doesn't matter where it's from, only it's capabilities matter. It's bulletproof but not rocket-proof: I don't see how this makes them 'weak' by Trek standards.

And need I remind you that they go down from simple electric shocks, like the one in the storage tunnel?

Yeah, and the Feds have all those shock nades in the cupboard, right next to the anti-borg shotguns. I thought that device was built using specific cyberman knowledge: it's not like it was a battery with a spike on it.

Since when do Cybermen have teleportation?

Since they break the laughably porous Fedder security while shutting down the whole planet's defences and power networks? It'd be more important for them to get transporter jammers, but we've seen how easy that is to accomplish and it's not like they can transport millions of cybermen in a few hours.

Actually, I wonder how long a cyberman could survive in space?

Besides, even if phasers are completely ineffective against robots built from salvaged kitchen appliances,

What? Cybermen are built from salvaged kitchen applicances now? Says who?

It's actually kinda sad you think they'd use orbital strikes against millions-and-rising troops in major cities. Seriously, orbital strikes from where? The one ship in orbit, with millions or billions of civilians held hostage? It's one thing if it was a single group or something, but this is a worldwide infestation that can add to their numbers extremely quickly.

Since Earth DOES have a central world authority, it'd be interesting to see if they could string out negotiation (and the round-table discussions on technobabble solutions) long enough to get entrenched like the Romulan troops on Vulcan.

[NecronLord]

I didn't know that. That'll teach me to keep up with the spoof websites

Silence! You dare question the canonicity of BBCi's spoof websites? Heresy!

In any case, having checked, yes, it's canon. "It's good news for Great Britain, as John Lumic returns to the country of his birth. Mr Lumic, the inventor of high-content metal has denied allegations of ill health"

Here, around 1:40.

I'd normally have qualms about posting links to pirated material, but as it's the BBC, and funded by what's essentially a tax, not adverts...

[Big Orange]

Why are people concerned about Feddie small arms unable to penetrate a warehouse crate on a low setting, when a Feddie phaser could vaporise a Cybus Ind. Cyberman on maximum setting? And while individual Cybermen footsoldiers are more aggressive than individual Borg drones, they don't have personal shields or hack into technology as effectively.

[NecronLord]

And need I remind you that they go down from simple electric shocks, like the one in the storage tunnel?

Yeah, and the Feds have all those shock nades in the cupboard, right next to the anti-borg shotguns. I thought that device was built using specific cyberman knowledge: it's not like it was a battery with a spike on it.

Not really. It's some kind of EMP device, but she had it in her bag anyway, used it for erasing computers or something.

Since they break the laughably porous Fedder security while shutting down the whole planet's defences and power networks? It'd be more important for them to get transporter jammers, but we've seen how easy that is to accomplish and it's not like they can transport millions of cybermen in a few hours.

Actually, I think they probably can.

Actually, I wonder how long a cyberman could survive in space?

Original cybermen could do it for some time, but not indefinately, they had artificial lungs, after all, that got clogged by gold dust.

It's actually kinda sad you think they'd use orbital strikes against millions-and-rising troops in major cities. Seriously, orbital strikes from where? The one ship in orbit, with millions or billions of civilians held hostage? It's one thing if it was a single group or something, but this is a worldwide infestation that can add to their numbers extremely quickly.

Actually, given the treatment of Picard, poster boy of the UFP, of people being assimilated, I think they probably would once it became obvious what the cybermen do.

Better to be vaporised from orbit than sliced up with no anastetic and welded into a metal body.

[NecronLord]

Why are people concerned about Feddie small arms unable to penetrate a warehouse crate on a low setting, when a Feddie phaser could vaporise a Cybus Ind. Cyberman on maximum setting?

What makes you think that? We've never seen them vapourise a machine to my knowledge. Borg drones have a bit of a glow on them when they're hit, they don't disappear.

And while individual Cybermen footsoldiers are more aggressive than individual Borg drones, they don't have personal shields or hack into technology as effectively.

They are however, much, much smarter. Observe how they take over Torchwood in Army of Ghosts. Same effect as 'l33t borg hacking' but more dramatic and more realistic.

[Bounty]

You know all those gun battles where people hide behind crates?

No?

I mean, I'm sure they exist, but specific examples would be nice.

There's a specific VOY episode, I believe, where there's a major gunbattle in the shuttlebay with lots of 'can't hit them because they're behind a crate' jeapardy.

And as we all know, it's perfectly sensible to blast away at full power when you're in a room that's seperated from hard vacuum by a sheet of metal.

It's bulletproof but not rocket-proof: I don't see how this makes them 'weak' by Trek standards.

Before NL's quote, I was under the impression that the Cybermen were built from regular steel. That doesn't apply anymore after the quote he gave.

Since they break the laughably porous Fedder security while shutting down the whole planet's defences and power networks?

And we've seen them do this...oh right, never.

It's actually kinda sad you think they'd use orbital strikes against millions-and-rising troops in major cities.

No I don't. The pics were of a *shuttle* blowing up a truck, not a starship. Unless you're going to tell me that weapons which can blow a semi to bits won't harm Cybermen.

What? Cybermen are built from salvaged kitchen applicances now? Says who?

Bad hyperbole

[NecronLord]

I mean, I'm sure they exist, but specific examples would be nice.

I think the most obvious example's the episode where they go to Tasha's homeworld.

Before NL's quote, I was under the impression that the Cybermen were built from regular steel. That doesn't apply anymore after the quote he gave.

Actually, I doubt it's much better than a few mm of steel. It's probably quite light though, much like the props, which are formed of pressed metallic dust and polystyrene or something (It's a while since I watched the confidential in question).

And we've seen them do this...oh right, never.

Army of Ghosts. The Cyber Leader does his roman salute and takes over the computers, previously prepared by part-converted humans.

[Stark]

Not really. It's some kind of EMP device, but she had it in her bag anyway, used it for erasing computers or something.

Now I'm going to have to watch the ep again: computer erasing grenades? Pete's World is WIERD.

Actually, I think they probably can.

Based... on...

And that's why Vulcan would have no problem with 2000 soldiers right? They'd just beam them off, no issue really. You sure can't push out of a transporter beam or anything! The cybermen aren't very intelligent and certainly wouldn't look for countermeasures in the available computers or assimilated military personell at all.

Original cybermen could do it for some time, but not indefinately, they had artificial lungs, after all, that got clogged by gold dust.

The new cybermen aren't very organic, but they don't seem to be very sealed and they're certainly not designed for space-stuff like the old ones. I guess there's no way to tell.

Actually, given the treatment of Picard, poster boy of the UFP, of people being assimilated, I think they probably would once it became obvious what the cybermen do.

Better to be vaporised from orbit than sliced up with no anastetic and welded into a metal body.

Okay, no, THIS is sad. The Federation butchering millions of people to 'save' them? Is there really a precedent for this?

Why are people concerned about Feddie small arms unable to penetrate a warehouse crate on a low setting, when a Feddie phaser could vaporise a Cybus Ind. Cyberman on maximum setting? And while individual Cybermen footsoldiers are more aggressive than individual Borg drones, they don't have personal shields or hack into technology as effectively.

Because many battle are drawn out affairs due to lame cover like crates, and if high-power could end it, they're idiots not to have done so. Thus, they'll be idiots and not crank it up against cybermen - even though the reduced endurance would still be a factor even if they did and if it worked.

Frankly, unless there's some way to establish if they can just detect and defeat the cybermen with transporters (which would be lame and end the discussion in seconds), I think the issue isn't about combat. Whatever troops are on Earth will be defeated (what standing army lol) and the Cybermen will in any case have millions of hostages and be investigating and coming up with a plan for this unexpected situation. The Feds will have to react quickly and decisively with huge stakes (something they're not known for) or be forced to blast their own homeworld.

A major turning point could be what the situation changed. If the cybermen had no scouts/infiltrators/etc and no knowledge of the Feds or their technology, they could well get schooled. If they already know about transporters, the Feds have few options remaining.

PS, is Bounty being serious? Is he really claiming to not know about 'lol can't penetrate crates'? The shuttle thing is neat, but the cybermen are hardly going to oblige by being out in the open in small numbers. If squads of cybies can shoot down shuttles, that'd be pretty funny. Either way it won't save the millions of hostages.

[Stark]

GHETTO: Bounty, don't react to 'shut down whole planet' like it's never happened. We ALL KNOW you can sabotage the whole planet to perform a coup - it was on TV and everything. The cybermen aren't fantastic hackers, but they will have scores of Federation personel to help them work it out.

UNRELATED: Isn't it wierd that the Cyber Leader can communicate across London at least, but they need to do some wierd touching to change leaders?

[NecronLord]

Based... on...

I believe there's a figure for evacuation teleportation given somewhere. Should be in the database, I'll take a gander.

And that's why Vulcan would have no problem with 2000 soldiers right? They'd just beam them off, no issue really. You sure can't push out of a transporter beam or anything! The cybermen aren't very intelligent and certainly wouldn't look for countermeasures in the available computers or assimilated military personell at all.

Cybermen won't have people marching in thanks to brain control (or rather, these ones won't) and will have to make sorties out to go get 'recruits.'

The new cybermen aren't very organic, but they don't seem to be very sealed and they're certainly not designed for space-stuff like the old ones. I guess there's no way to tell.

Okay, no, THIS is sad. The Federation butchering millions of people to 'save' them? Is there really a precedent for this?

They're happy to let millions - billions, maybe trillions (in their refusal to intervene against a coup attempt in the klingon empire by pleading the PD) of people die for the prime directive. And understand the principle of killing people to save them...

[NecronLord]

GHETTO: Bounty, don't react to 'shut down whole planet' like it's never happened. We ALL KNOW you can sabotage the whole planet to perform a coup - it was on TV and everything. The cybermen aren't fantastic hackers, but they will have scores of Federation personel to help them work it out.

Given that the tardisode showed them storming into TV a station, I suspect they just hijacked the existing TV channels for that. Wouldn't be the first invaders in history to go straight for

On the other hand, there's a bit of Dalek Sec cutting in on TV with 'The daleks are the masters of earth' which was pretty awesome.

UNRELATED: Isn't it wierd that the Cyber Leader can communicate across London at least, but they need to do some wierd touching to change leaders?

I think that's just symbolic, or maybe contact is needed for relaying very high volumes of data.

EDIT: Correction, the cybermen take over the station transmitting 'Ghost Watch' in the show itself. A dalek turns up in the Tardisode for Doomsday and takes over an emergency broadcast studio.

[Stark]

Yah, a GCS can handle 1/s or something similar. I'm not sure how that scales - but like I said, if the cybermen are just dropped in with no infiltration or knowledge, they'll get owned by some technobabble nonsense or other.

The cybermen apparently had little trouble setting up conversion and capture ops in the Torchwood Tower, so I'm not sure why they'd be unable to do the same in large Starfleet facilities. Given the extremely porous security and well-known transporter weaknesses, it wouldn't take much of a nudge for them to start protecting themselves.

And those were KLINGONS, not the population of Earth. They'd almost certainly be able to save the government, at least, unless the cybies get their scouting etc so they can behead Federation. I'm just having trouble with ST drips ordering mass slaughter to 'defeat' the cybermen - it's not like the cybermen would avoid shelters and defences or anything.

Hey, doesn't Bounty go on about ST ground defences? I wonder how long till the cybermen work out how they work? I guess the ship in orbit would destroy those as soon as they worked out what was happening, though.

PS I checked, and it was an 'electromagnetic bomb' which 'destroys computers'. It fell off the cyberman after it fired, so I guess it doesn't have a spike either. Anyway, not just a battery, EMP nade, Feds don't have any.

PPS - NL, I mean Paradise Lost, where Earth can be totally shut down with relatively minor sabotage. Not DW. With cybermen all over, if they know what they're doing they should easily be able to cripple the planet's infrastructure.