Federation vs Halo species

[brianeyci]

I used to love DS9 and the Dominion war arc. Even though I watched B5, I didn't really care DS9 was a ripoff, because I used to think the more the better. Nowadays looking back, I'm starting to agree more and more with people who think Star Trek was never meant to be a setting for a galactic war. "To boldly go where no man has gone before" and "Explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations" just doesn't mesh well at all with war, battles or fighting. When you try and take the cheese out of Star Trek, it just ends up treating itself too seriously. How can you take guys in pajamas seriously in a war. You really can't. Or the boxy rifles in TNG. You can't. Then you have patch-on fixes like a warlike Sovereign, black and gray uniforms, an assault rifle... but it just doesn't work, it's hijacking the entire premise of a franchise. I'm starting to think that if ST:FC had bombed, it would've been better for the franchise. I'm also starting that ST:FC sucked, when I used to worship it. I'm also starting to think that if you take the "cheese" factor out of Star Trek, and try to make episodes or movies which take themselves too seriously, it reeks hard. I would take a hundred TNG Rascals over an Insurrection or a Nemesis.

[Soldier of Entropy]

If we accept that the feddies would align themselves with the UNSC, which I view as highly likely, then I don't really see why you would see alot of Federation troops in ground engagements anyway; the spartans and marines would take that over. Also, if the Dominion somehow wound up aligned with the UNSC...armies of cloned Spartans, perhaps? However, it seems more likely that the Dominion would wind up allied with the Covenant (all the humanoids in the Dominion are made by the founders, not related to other humanoids, so the Covenant should have no problem with it, although the Dominion would probably have a problem with the Covenant, the Covenant being solids) and then, you see an entire Covenant even more under the control of the prophets due to being addicted to Ketracel-white. However, if the Dominion decides to be a third party in this war, then you have a third factor thrown into the equation. Feel free to speculate on this...

[Ghost Rider]

The largest problem with any alliance is to determine whether the technology would even be compatiable or understandable within a reasonable timeframe of the other culture.

If we are going by energy output...it make take the ST powers centuries given the sheer stagnation over the last 200 with their own Warp Drive and Anti matter/Matter generators.

[Noble Ire]

If we accept that the feddies would align themselves with the UNSC, which I view as highly likely, then I don't really see why you would see alot of Federation troops in ground engagements anyway; the spartans and marines would take that over. Also, if the Dominion somehow wound up aligned with the UNSC...armies of cloned Spartans, perhaps? However, it seems more likely that the Dominion would wind up allied with the Covenant (all the humanoids in the Dominion are made by the founders, not related to other humanoids, so the Covenant should have no problem with it, although the Dominion would probably have a problem with the Covenant, the Covenant being solids) and then, you see an entire Covenant even more under the control of the prophets due to being addicted to Ketracel-white. However, if the Dominion decides to be a third party in this war, then you have a third factor thrown into the equation. Feel free to speculate on this...

Actually cloning Spartans would only produce base-line humans; Spartans are what they are because of decades of intensive training starting at infancy, along with extensive chemical and technological augmentation in their adolescence. Founder technology might expedite the process in some ways, but it would hardly be able to churn out thousands of new Spartans immediately.

As for the possibility of a Covenant alliance with the Dominion (or, more accurately, the assimilation of the Dominion by the Covenant), it’s really hard to say. After all, it’s implied that the Prophet's order to exterminate humanity was an unusual ploy, perhaps an attempt to try to hold their empire together; every other known species they encountered was conquered and inducted, not wiped out. And I can see the High Prophet of Truth being very interested in both the Founders and the Jem'hadar because they're so easily controlled (the white for the Jem'hadar, and perhaps holding the Great Link under the threat of the gun; as similar tactic, in part, made them surrender in their war with the Federation).

[Sidewinder]

However, if the Cov's get a working Warp Drive and can reverse-engineer it quickly, or even worse, adapt there drives to work on as Warp drives and at Warp speed, then that war would go badly for everyone.

I strongly doubt the Covenant will attempt to reverse-engineer a warp drive, as it was NOT designed by the Forerunners. In a war with a Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance, the Covenant has an advantage in technology but a disadvantage in numbers-- we'll probably see a repeat of the WW2 German complaint, "One German tank (or Covenant warship) is better than ten of yours, but you always have eleven!"

On the plus side, the idea of Jem'ha'dar arguing with Spartan's is funny

If Master Chief is representative of the Spartans, he'd likely ignore the Jem'Hadar as they rant and rave about how the Spartans are cheating. (The Spartans wouldn't ignore the Jem'Hadar when they're armed or moving aggressively; the Spartans would simply shoot, bomb, stab, punch, or kick to eliminate the threats in the most efficient and expedient manner available.)

[brianeyci]

People always underestimate the importance of numbers. One order of magnitude more is doable, ten to one odds. Two orders of magnitude, a monumental effort, one hundred to one odds. Three orders of magnitude, herculean, one thousand to one odds. Even with n-squared, it's not enough to deal with weapons one million times more powerful and defenses one million times more durable. It is not like Shermans versus Panzers, one order of magnitude. It's six orders of magnitude or one million times worse. It's like a tank driving over an ant. Basically for one Covenant ship to destroy the entire Federation, Klingons, and Romulans combined, you just need to show evidence of these 4 gigaton shots, evidence of resistance to said 4 gigaton shots, and the entire AQ wouldn't have a prayer fighting one Covenant ship. Not every single ship in the AQ can fire on a Covenant ship at once, there's range and volume limitations. Meanwhile the one rogue Covenant ship could one-shot kill any AQ ship. People don't like thinking of it this way because it short-circuits debate, but for fanfiction and stories usually opponents have to be within one order of magnitude just to make it interesting. For debate, you just need to look at the numbers for five seconds and dismiss it. No further debate, no nothing.

By the way it always makes me go what the fuck when people mention special forces, special one-shot tactics, special abilities, special wonders when mentioning a war. SPARTANS are an elite, less than one hundred man military force. They would have negligible effect on any war. Unless the wonder can make up for a difference for at least two orders of magnitude, one hundred to one, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it. Data can probably kill ten Klingons before kicking the can, but if he was hunting a hundred Klingons he'd be fried.

[Soldier of Entropy]

People always underestimate the importance of numbers. One order of magnitude more is doable, ten to one odds. Two orders of magnitude, a monumental effort, one hundred to one odds. Three orders of magnitude, herculean, one thousand to one odds. Even with n-squared, it's not enough to deal with weapons one million times more powerful and defenses one million times more durable. It is not like Shermans versus Panzers, one order of magnitude. It's six orders of magnitude or one million times worse. It's like a tank driving over an ant. Basically for one Covenant ship to destroy the entire Federation, Klingons, and Romulans combined, you just need to show evidence of these 4 gigaton shots, evidence of resistance to said 4 gigaton shots, and the entire AQ wouldn't have a prayer fighting one Covenant ship. Not every single ship in the AQ can fire on a Covenant ship at once, there's range and volume limitations. Meanwhile the one rogue Covenant ship could one-shot kill any AQ ship. People don't like thinking of it this way because it short-circuits debate, but for fanfiction and stories usually opponents have to be within one order of magnitude just to make it interesting. For debate, you just need to look at the numbers for five seconds and dismiss it. No further debate, no nothing.

I disagree greatly. Does the Covenant ship have endless or near endless ammo? Are its sheilds completely impervious to extremely long bombardment, alebeit by weaker weapons? I doubt it. Then you factor in the possiblillity of an alliance with the UNSC, and the scales tip further in favor of the Federation.

[Aaron]

I disagree greatly. Does the Covenant ship have endless or near endless ammo? Are its sheilds completely impervious to extremely long bombardment, alebeit by weaker weapons? I doubt it. Then you factor in the possiblillity of an alliance with the UNSC, and the scales tip further in favor of the Federation.

You do realise of course that the Covenant were completeing owning the UNSC in every naval engagement of the war right? Seriously if you have any evidence to present that the Feds can help win the battles than present it. So far all I see is "I say so".

[Black Admiral]

You do realise of course that the Covenant were completeing owning the UNSC in every naval engagement of the war right?

Just to reinforce this, both Ghosts of Onyx and The Fall of Reach note that the UNSC needs a three-to-one numerical advantage in ship to ship combat just to break even - and even when they have that, the tech disparity is big enough that they're going to get hurt, badly, even if they win.

[Aaron]

Add to that: the loss of a Covenant fleet was considered trivial to them. Where as the loss of 39 vessels at Wolf 359 was a major blow to the Federation as was the Dominion War losses.

[Black Admiral]

Add to that: the loss of a Covenant fleet was considered trivial to them. Where as the loss of 39 vessels at Wolf 359 was a major blow to the Federation as was the Dominion War losses.

The Covenant fleet in question was on the order of five hundred ships strong and included a 30km across mobile battle station (the Unyielding Hierophant). Also, about two weeks beforehand the Covenant had lost several hundred ships at Reach.

The High Prophet of Truth (who, I'll concede, as a religious fanatic may be BSing on this) dismisses the loss of the Unyielding Hierophant and its fleet as "A regrettable turn of events, but in the end only an insignificant setback." (First Strike, pg. 340)

[Noble Ire]

By the way it always makes me go what the fuck when people mention special forces, special one-shot tactics, special abilities, special wonders when mentioning a war. SPARTANS are an elite, less than one hundred man military force. They would have negligible effect on any war. Unless the wonder can make up for a difference for at least two orders of magnitude, one hundred to one, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it. Data can probably kill ten Klingons before kicking the can, but if he was hunting a hundred Klingons he'd be fried.

Quite well put. During the UNSC's war with the Covenant, the Spartan program served, more or less, as a propoganda weapon. Certainly, the Spartan-IIs did win the UNSC uncounted ground battles and almost single-handedly destroy capital ships and shipyards on occasion, but their actual military impact was negligible. Humanity was still losing every world that the Covenant discovered and being crushed in each space engagement. The Spartans were heroes when Earth needed them most; that's why they were never listed KIA even when its obvious that they died in actions. They were unstoppable, unkillable machines that instilled hope in the most battered marine and infuriated the most experienced Sangheili commander. But heroes alone can't win a war.

Perhaps if the Spartan-III program, which fielded several hundred Spartans (if not as well trained or armored), was ever expanded, they might have started taking a noticable toll; Alpha and Beta teams did destroy two key Covenant facilities, even if it was at the cost of every single soldier involved. However, with the state of UNSC resources and the loss of Onyx, the project is essentially finished.

[Soldier of Entropy]

Point conceded. A direct confrontation would be disasterous to both the Federation and UNSC. I thought I had found something on the Halo wiki (here, if anyone is interested: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page), but, when I went back to the wiki, I could not find it again. I know that is no excuse, but it is the truth. The only ways that I see the Federation surviving this encounter are either sealing the wormhole immediately, or possibly trying to get some of the UNSC through the wormhole, then sealing it, although warp could be useful (relatively to UNSC slipspace tech) in the beginning of any conflict due to its speed if combined somehow with UNSC weaponry and ships, it would eventually fail.

[Stark]

So, what *did* you think you read? How did it change the perceived balance of power?

[Soldier of Entropy]

I disagree greatly. Does the Covenant ship have endless or near endless ammo? Are its sheilds completely impervious to extremely long bombardment, alebeit by weaker weapons? I doubt it. Then you factor in the possiblillity of an alliance with the UNSC, and the scales tip further in favor of the Federation.

You do realise of course that the Covenant were completeing owning the UNSC in every naval engagement of the war right? Seriously if you have any evidence to present that the Feds can help win the battles than present it. So far all I see is "I say so".

Sorry, I forgot to point out who I was conceding to in that last post, and I cannot figure out how to edit my post, or even if I can.

[Soldier of Entropy]

I thought I found something that said quantified the Covenant weapons' power, but when I went back it was not there. I remember that it was much lower than I thought it was, but I do not remember the specifics.