Necrons vs. GE

[the atom]

Warp storm has appeared at the edge of both the SW and 40k galaxies creating a portal that linked them.

Scouts and advance parties were sent though to collect data, while the process of creating a massive invasion force was started. However soon it became clear that something was very wrong. None of the scouts or probes returned, and the few survivors of the advance parties were mad and incoherent; babbling about metal monsters and emerald light.

The Necrons, upon discovering a race with efficient, non-warp based FTL set upon the scouting forces and destroyed them. Tracing their origin to the portal, the Necrons set out through it to prevent further incursion from the GE. Namely by wiping them out. The largest Necron fleet seen since the War in Heaven goes through to portal to obliterate all traces of the Empire.

Assume the Deceiver and Nightbringer are involved.

No other 40k race knows of this operation nor will they be involved.

[ChosenOne54]

Based on what I know about the Necrons (not too much), the Empire gets stomped. The Imperium of Man may stand as equals to the GE, but from what I've heard, the Necrons are above and beyond.

[doom3607]

Agree with ChoseOne54. The IoM is ~equal to the GE IIRC. To give an example of how superior the Necrons are, five small ships (destroyers) once entered the Sol system, ran straight at Mars, and one of them actually made it to the surface before getting blasted. Even Chaos or the Eldar would need a monstrous fleet to break through the defences of the Sol System and Mars.

[doom3607]

EDIT: Double post.

[HMS Sophia]

I'm assuming this is the necrons as in the metal skeleton guys and not the galaxy eating gods?

I don't see them curb-stomping the GE. A difficult fight maybe, but the Necrons will have no manufacturing base, no planets, no shipyards.
How big is the invasion fleet? What ships are in it? what classes?
How many troops?

Also, the Necrons already have an FTL drive that doesn't use warp...

[the atom]

Yeah I know. They generally suppress all attempts to prevent non-warp FTL from proliferating so that when they close the warp, they will have a monopoly on FTL and will be able to round up and slaughter everyone at will.

[HMS Sophia]

Yeah I know. They generally suppress all attempts to prevent non-warp FTL from proliferating so that when they close the warp, they will have a monopoly on FTL and will be able to round up and slaughter everyone at will.

Ah I see...
And the rest of my questions?

[Srelex]

I don't think there's even that much info on total Necron strength?

[doom3607]

Other than that they have enough shit lying around, an unknown percentage of it asleep, to beat the shit out of the greatest and most powerful civilization the galaxy has ever known? Not that I know of.

[the atom]

Alright let's assume a massive fleet of 3000 ships.

500 Cairn Tombships

750 Scythe Class harvest ships

800 cruisers

950 escorts

Their initial targets are the DS2 and Corescant.

[HMS Sophia]

Hmm... My first reaction is that the ones aiming for coruscant are fucked...
I think someone on here worked out what a sector fleet should look like, and considering coruscant is a galactic capital, it'll have a huge number of orbital defences.
Now, I know the necrons slipped past Titan and the outer-sol defence grids, and got to Mars, but can you link the article in question, or quote it? It depends on how they got in is what I'm thinking.

In addition to that, were the ships that got into sol not cairn class light cruisers? because those are stealth ships. If it wasn't those then meh, but I think it needs defining.

[doom3607]

To elaborate, using the highest canon I am aware of:

Before now, Necron activities had been confined to sporadic raids, with lone outposts, isolated asteroid bases and frontier worlds coming under attack. A plea for aid from the Tethrock Quay Naval base was the first indicator that events were picking up momentum when the Lux Imperator disappeared and the warship Solar's Fury was destroyed. Naval forces throughout the galaxy have recorded yet more attacks of progressively greater strength, and this has culminated in a bizarre, suicidal raid by five Necron vessels (designated Shroud class light cruisers), which somehow managed to penetrate the formidable planetary defences of the Adeptus Mechanicus home world of Mars. After pursuing the invaders to the Noctis Labyrinthus, a mine complex in the northern reaches of Mars, defence ships were finally able to catch the Necron vessels. Though all five were destroyed, it was only at a fearfully high cost, and one of the ships actually managed to land on the blessed red soil of Mars itself before being vaporised.

[HMS Sophia]

Sorry, yeah, shroud not cairn. They're stealth ships, so I doubt the other ships of the Necron fleet will be able to slip in and out of defence systems quite as easily. I would then go with my first reaction of the ones going for coruscant might well be pretty fucked, dependant on possible planetary defences. It may well be, however, that they manage to overpower coruscants defences, and wipe the surface fo the planet clean. However, it is after the first few planets that the Necron fleet begins to have problems. They're in someone else's galaxy, without a support base. They don't outnumber the enemy, so they will slowly be picked off (or maybe not that slowly), and the fleet will be whittled down.
For instance the cairn class is the equivalent of an IOM battleship, as in they can go toe to toe and the winner is anyone's guess. If we accept that IOM ships are somewhat comparable to GE ships (and I think they are in terms of firepower), then I think we could probably accept that a star dreadnought is the equivalent of a Cairn class, and those things ain't exactly rare in any era.
So, the enemy fleet consists of a full fleet size of only 3000 ships. I don't think they're going to last particularly long in the SW galaxy...
Thanks for that quote doom.

[Whiskey144]

For instance the cairn class is the equivalent of an IOM battleship, as in they can go toe to toe and the winner is anyone's guess. If we accept that IOM ships are somewhat comparable to GE ships (and I think they are in terms of firepower), then I think we could probably accept that a star dreadnought is the equivalent of a Cairn class, and those things ain't exactly rare in any era.

Uh, no, the Cairn tombship is NOT the equivalent of a single Imperium battleship.

It's the equivalent of three+. As in, it whips three, and if there's a fourth the Cairn *might* be taken down.

Keep in mind that Necron ships getting totally destroyed is unlikely to happen.........the Necrons, do, after all, have a preference for retreating in the face of heavy damage rather than dying to the last. Combined with the Necron's borderline-wanky repair ability, and the majority of the Necron fleet will survive.

Add in tactical use of the Necron's inertialess drive, and they can literally zip around the GE fleets. All topped off with:

1) FTL that doesn't require the Warp and is, by all sources, considered to be a "press button=you're there" device.......making them one of few forces that can outmaneuver the GE on a strategic scale.
2) Teleportation systems. Necron teleporters are considered to be far superior to comparable equivalents used by the Imperium, Eldar, and Orks. This, combined with the ridiculous toughness of the Necron Warriors, makes a boarding assault conducted by the Necrons....nigh unrepellable.

To elaborate, using the highest canon I am aware of:

Don't forget that the Necrons also have a BFG fluff/list bit. Connor's gone over it, AFAIK*, so you can probably find it in the relevant thread he's got.

I'll probably post up a bit more later, but I've got dinner to attend to.

*I've checked the thread in question recently, and he's finished the BFG Bluebook.

[the atom]

Sorry, yeah, shroud not cairn. They're stealth ships, so I doubt the other ships of the Necron fleet will be able to slip in and out of defence systems quite as easily. I would then go with my first reaction of the ones going for coruscant might well be pretty fucked, dependant on possible planetary defences. It may well be, however, that they manage to overpower coruscants defences, and wipe the surface fo the planet clean. However, it is after the first few planets that the Necron fleet begins to have problems. They're in someone else's galaxy, without a support base. They don't outnumber the enemy, so they will slowly be picked off (or maybe not that slowly), and the fleet will be whittled down.
For instance the cairn class is the equivalent of an IOM battleship, as in they can go toe to toe and the winner is anyone's guess. If we accept that IOM ships are somewhat comparable to GE ships (and I think they are in terms of firepower), then I think we could probably accept that a star dreadnought is the equivalent of a Cairn class, and those things ain't exactly rare in any era.
So, the enemy fleet consists of a full fleet size of only 3000 ships. I don't think they're going to last particularly long in the SW galaxy...
Thanks for that quote doom.

Any type of quantification for planetary defences? I'm aware of formidable planetary shields but not I don't know much beyond that.
Also, said warp portal is still open, so reinforcements are technically a possibility.

The Cairn class is the size equivalent of a battleship, but no means firepower equivalent. Cairn's, along with pretty much all other Necron ships for that matter, are said to be able to handily defeat their opposite number in any engagement. The same will easily be true in this scenario. Also remember the Necrons can simply run from any engagement they can't win, as they have done on multiple occasions. This makes hit and run engagements not only a problem, but also a game changing threat.

[HMS Sophia]

I'm gonna step back from this one. My basic knowledge of the Necron fleet stuff really isn't what I thought it was. I'll be watching though

[doom3607]

The Necrons demonstrably have interstellar-range teleportation built into infantry. AFAIK, their ships really are "push button = there"-type fast. They can repair their infantry from when they're molten puddles, which means the ships should also have some pretty impressive self-repair. I think I saw one bit where a fragment of a monolith managed to regrow itself into a full one in a matter of hours, which supports that theory. Honestly, short of overwhelming numerical superiority I'm not sure the GE can actually damage the Necrons faster than they can self repair. Of course, I am not the expert, so don't take my word for it.

[Connor MacLeod]

We know nothing about necron size, numbers, industrial capability, etc. so this thread is rather pointless, unless you're going to pit the hundred or a thousand or so known/estimated Tomb Worlds against the Empire, which really isnt going to be much.

[NecronLord]

To elaborate, using the highest canon I am aware of:

For what it's worth, it's not really the most reliable source at all. The 5th ed rulebook trumps it, as the lien bits there are supposed to be from the necron perspective, while the Necron Codex is mostly from the human or eldar perspective.

[NecronLord]

Assume the Deceiver and Nightbringer are involved.

The Deceiver embarks on a transport at Naboo, gets off a Coruscant, walks into the Imperial Palace passing through every barrier on the way, while in the form of a stormtrooper, where he, being demonstratably faster (Wankatine never ruled the Galactic Empire, only Palpatine, who's not that quick), stronger, essentially immune to any practical amount of damage, and equipped with a variety of special skills, kills Palpatine and destroys the body, and assumes his form. He now rules the Galactic Empire. Anyone who spots the difference gets their head chopped off: no one questions this because Palpatine does that kind of thing all the time.

Total Necron victory, begin the harvest. Total time taken, approx 1 hr. Necron casualties 0.0.

This is much harder with the Galactic Republic, which doesn't have a massive single point of failure in the form of an unquestioned leader. Don't abandon democracy folks, or an alien star-god may replace your ruler.

[Talk738kno]

The Necrons demonstrably have interstellar-range teleportation built into infantry. AFAIK, their ships really are "push button = there"-type fast. They can repair their infantry from when they're molten puddles, which means the ships should also have some pretty impressive self-repair. I think I saw one bit where a fragment of a monolith managed to regrow itself into a full one in a matter of hours, which supports that theory. Honestly, short of overwhelming numerical superiority I'm not sure the GE can actually damage the Necrons faster than they can self repair. Of course, I am not the expert, so don't take my word for it.

Theirs no evidence of Nercon FTL being instantaneous, Nercons can phase out from being molten puddles, but repairing takes quite a while as seen in Fall of Deamoius, which takes at least a day at the very least. Nercons also have a weak point, as if you take out the Nercon Lord, the entire force basicilly stalls out untill it comes back or the send a new one. Monoliths also have a weak point on the top,that if exploited a single lascannon shot can force a phase count and Nercon Plyons can be taken out with meltabombs.

Nercons are also very to slow to react and highly arrogant, in Fall of Deamoius a strike force of 50 or so Space Marines supported by 3 Dreads cut a hole to take out the Nercon force, manage to take out the lord and manage to withdraw with miminal caustilies. Arrgoance was noted was the reason by the Chief Libarian Tigirius, as despite the Nercons knowing the space marines intentions to take their pylons, they made no attempt to take react to the Space Marine presence in their backyward, as they assured themelvees of their invincibility.

[NecronLord]

Theirs no evidence of Nercon FTL being instantaneous,

Note the tone; he's obviously referring to them just being very fast. The actual speed is around 10^12 c (Codex Necrons) presumably for inertialess drives, their ships are also capable of folding space (Hellforged) which does appear instant, but we do not know the maximum range of that.

Nercons can phase out from being molten puddles, but repairing takes quite a while as seen in Fall of Deamoius, which takes at least a day at the very least.

The incident in question was the use of a ressurection orb. It's in the necron codex. Ressurection orbs can repair them rapidly from being melted. Can I get a page-reference for that 'a day' thing too? There's a deathwatch short story in the Necron Codex that depicts warriors being repaired in the tomb taking a far shorter time.

Nercons also have a weak point, as if you take out the Nercon Lord, the entire force basicilly stalls out untill it comes back or the send a new one.

Actually it reverts to automatic mode. Which still involves shooting you.

Monoliths also have a weak point on the top,that if exploited a single lascannon shot can force a phase count

Phase count is a game mechanic and not one that's present in all stories. Back in third edition there were scenarios where it did not apply (those with 'sustained assault' scenario special rule, this included some standard scenarios) on tabletop as well. And I'm not sure how 'needs a precise hit from an anti-tank weapon that can also kill any other tank in the setting' is a 'weakness' - that's like saying US soliders have a weakness to bullets, in that the bullets can enter their flesh and do damage... the same applies to every other human.

and Nercon Plyons can be taken out with meltabombs.

Again... this is... a weakness everything else has.

Nercons are also very to slow to react and highly arrogant, in Fall of Deamoius a strike force of 50 or so Space Marines supported by 3 Dreads cut a hole to take out the Nercon force, manage to take out the lord and manage to withdraw with miminal caustilies.

Fifty space marines with plot. Incidentally, the rest of the Damnos battle is described in various sources. The Undying was going mad. After he was disposed of, and a new lord took over, although the Space Marine armour had arrived, the battle turned. Damnos is now a necron world and the Ultramarines were forced to flee.

Arrgoance was noted was the reason by the Chief Libarian Tigirius, as despite the Nercons knowing the space marines intentions to take their pylons, they made no attempt to take react to the Space Marine presence in their backyward, as they assured themelvees of their invincibility.

That's an... interesting... interpretation. They had one of their senior leaders guarding said pylons, along with various warriors. The fact that the Imperium of Man's arguably greatest living psyker was present tipped the balance. And it was still a close run thing.

[Black Admiral]

Monoliths also have a weak point on the top,that if exploited a single lascannon shot can force a phase count

Actually, it was two lascannon shots, impacting at precisely the moment the other two Monoliths present finished feeding power into the first's main Gauss weapon, and it wasn't the lascannon shots that wrecked it but the uncontrolled release of the energies stored in its main weapon.

[NecronLord]

There is another incident in one of the Dark Apostle books where they do something similar.

[Connor MacLeod]

Note the tone; he's obviously referring to them just being very fast. The actual speed is around 10^12 c (Codex Necrons) presumably for inertialess drives, their ships are also capable of folding space (Hellforged) which does appear instant, but we do not know the maximum range of that.

I wouldn't assume they travel at that speed all the time - the Necrons in Dark took quite a bit longer to cross the galaxy to reach the place Marduk and the Word Bearers were attacking, as I recall. If they're the same FTL system then there are some obvious (but unknown) limitations on FTL speed - one possibvility is fuel/energy reserves or condition of repair. If they aren't the same (and Necrons have more than one kind of fTL) then there must be tradeoffs or limitations to the faster kind of FTL as opposed to the slower.

Note as far as we know the inertialess drive and folding space thing are the same thing, I wouldn't read too much into names or context because there's lots of ways you can do something, and it often depends on how literally you are taking things anyhow.

Fifty space marines with plot. Incidentally, the rest of the Damnos battle is described in various sources. The Undying was going mad. After he was disposed of, and a new lord took over, although the Space Marine armour had arrived, the battle turned. Damnos is now a necron world and the Ultramarines were forced to flee.

There was also the Undying in Hellforged, which has to be to date one of the most underwhelming representations of Necrons ever (200 or so Space Marines plus a few thousand Mechanicus taking on a Necron tomb world, Necron weapons which seem to do damage far less than typical, sometimes even doing thermal damage, and Necrons with circuit boards in their skulls - or something to that effect.) Although in Hellforged's defense I imagine you could argue that Necron Lord as being a total lunatic as well.