Most gratuitous biowank

[Srelex]

Which example of biowank in science fiction in your opinion really takes the cake, be it in implausibility, over-the-topness, etc? For me, I'd say it'd have to be the Tyranids, as cool as they are, or any similar bug race. Considering their inexplicably tight control over their biology and evolution...but are there any similar or even more egregious examples?

[Starglider]

Which example of biowank in science fiction in your opinion really takes the cake, be it in implausibility, over-the-topness, etc? For me, I'd say it'd have to be the Tyranids, as cool as they are, or any similar bug race. Considering their inexplicably tight control over their biology and evolution...but are there any similar or even more egregious examples?

Shadows and Vorlons in B5. The Tyranids merely have stuff that is on a par with the IoM etc. In the B5 universe, biowank organic ships are supposed to be inherently superior in every way to inorganic ships made with conventional engineering. Following close behind are the voidhawks from the Night's Dawn trilogy, which were again practically superior to inorganic ships in every way despite being made out of squishy nutrient-sucking radiation-intolerant organic flesh.

[Night_stalker]

Dovin Basins.

That's all I have to say.

[open_sketchbook]

I don't think it's biowank if they just manage to be more or less on par with the other powers in the setting using biotech. With the Tyranids, they go out of their way to justify it, using magic as nessesary. Rather I think it's biowank when we have a technological setting and biotech is better because it is biotech and not because of the properties that biotechnology in this setting happens to have.

[Gramzamber]

Stargate Atlantis is guilty of this in the finale, which is a shame because up till then they were good about the limitations and flaws of bio ships, then at the end they go "With one ZPM this bio ship has grown to be invincible to everything ever!".
Come on.

[Batman]

With the Vorlons and Shadows I always sort of thought they were better than the Younger Races DESPITE using biotech, not BECAUSE of it, thanks to having a several billion year head start on everybody else. And they weren't all THAT much more advanced either. YR capships could take on Shadow battlecrabs in single figure numbers when they could manage to hit them.
And I thoroughly second the Yuuzan Vong.

[Stofsk]

No Bats, they're explicitly considered far superior because of their biotech ships. Sheridan mentions 'organic technology' in an awe-filled voice in a season 2 episode where they meet Kosh's ship. YR ships could hit Shadow battlecrabs but they couldn't kill them until they discovered telepaths could jam them and thus leave them vulnerable. Until then they were untouchable. Only in 'The Long Twilight Struggle' did a Shadow Battlecrab even get damaged by concentrated fire from three Narn Heavy Cruisers. And the next scene those Narn ships were wiped out in a couple seconds.

[Guardsman Bass]

Dovin Basins.

That's all I have to say.

Ah yes, the Yuuzhan Vong. They weren't quite as bad as the Babylon 5 guys sound (where biowank is superior just because it is biowank), but their biowank was definitely gratuitous. They conveniently had a biological equivalent and counter for just about every type of tech necessary to fight the New Republic on an equal level, be it their magic biological gravity/hyperspace creatures, or their weird linked ball-head communication device.

[Night_stalker]

Don't forget their armor that was pretty much impervious to anything short of starfighter weaponry, or Mandolorian Crushgaunts.

[Batman]

No Bats, they're explicitly considered far superior because of their biotech ships. Sheridan mentions 'organic technology' in an awe-filled voice in a season 2 episode where they meet Kosh's ship.

Biotech ships with a billion year head start.

YR ships could hit Shadow battlecrabs but they couldn't kill them until they discovered telepaths could jam them and thus leave them vulnerable. Until then they were untouchable.

Because they could finally HIT them thanks to them sitting still due to telepathic jamming. There's no evidence for them being massively more resilient than YR warships once they actually DO get hit.

Only in 'The Long Twilight Struggle' did a Shadow Battlecrab even get damaged by concentrated fire from three Narn Heavy Cruisers. And the next scene those Narn ships were wiped out in a couple seconds.

Okay, apparently there is.
Still doesn't mean they're superior because of biotech as opposed to a billion year head start that LETS them be superior DESPITE biotech.

[Gramzamber]

What about White Stars? They're supposed to be superior to any other ship their size due to their hybrid Minbari-Vorlon biotech.

[Rye]

Isn't the carnifex from 40k meant to be able to swim in the magma of a planet or some such bollocks? That's a bit difficult to swallow.

[Batman]

That'd be the Vorlon technology billions of years ahead of everybody else and the MAIN advantage the WhiteStars had was being able to go stardrive despite no ship that size being able to do so before (which really doesn't work because nobody bats an eye at Centauri Vorchans being hyperspace capable yet they're not all that much larger) and they get damaged and even destroyed in fights with YR vessels so they can't be THAT uber. An EA fleet outnumbering the one that turned tail and ran in the face of three Minbari warcruisers in 'Severed Dreams' was perfectly happy to try and take on a goodly number of WhiteStars in 'No Surrender No Retreat'.
Again, Vorlon/Shadow superiority over the younger races seems to be pretty limited (say an order of magnitude, firepower-wise) and is easily explained by them having been around a lot longer.
And I'm aware that at times B5 did CLAIM they were more advanced because of biowank via in-universe's charcter statements. What 'I' am trying to get across is that B5 is a setup where they could actually get away with it BECAUSE of the biowank having a billion year head start.

[adam_grif]

When is Biowank Biowank? I don't think the material composition of any of these ships being discussed is ever raised at any point (although if the Vong had some explanations in like a SW Crossection book or some shit that might be an exception), so all we know is that it's biological (living) and organic (many definitions, most broadly either "natural",
"made by living systems" or "based on carbon"). Given that real world materials that are organic in the chemical sense can be strong as fuck (diamonds, carbon nanotubes) with many highly useful properties, that something is "organic" does NOT mean it is SQUISHY.

Living systems use metals in their body, although generally not for structural support. Still, this means that if you found some animal that had an iron spinal column, it would still be both organic and biological. Fuck, that one of the definitions of "organic" is that it's a product of living systems, if you had a self replicating, but otherwise conventional starship, you could make an argument for it being a biological starship, and that its hull was thus "organic".

Artistically, all we really see is that the exterior of these ships look non-conventional (in that they don't resemble the kinds of flat, obviously-metal exteriors of other ships), and sometimes that they have asymmetrical designs. The qualities ascribed of these starships is that they are self-repairing usually, and otherwise "advanced" (in some vague, undefined way).

None of these things are necessarily untrue or obviously stupid or wrong. Mike's essay on the subject only holds true if the Biowank in general is made of fleshy shit, the same shit humans are made out of. But that isn't necessarily implied simply by saying it's biological or that it's organic, and given that they are generally as good/better than conventional starships, we certainly can't assume that this is the case.

[Ford Prefect]

Isn't the carnifex from 40k meant to be able to swim in the magma of a planet or some such bollocks? That's a bit difficult to swallow.

That would be hard to swallow for almost any technology, not just biological technology.

And I swear to God, if someone else says 'biowank' I will shoot tentacles out of your keyboard and throttle you to death. I am trying to imagine a way to say it without coming off as a massive tryhard: there isn't one. Yes, biological technology is silly. No, there is no need to substitute 'biological technology' with 'biowank'.

In any case, the most gratuitous examples of biological 'technology' I can think of is the Space Monsters from Gunbuster.

[Connor MacLeod]

tyranids are just as wanky as the vorlons/Shadows when it comes to tech - they both rely on the "magic" explanation for biotech to have any validity (As an example for the 'Nids, you got stupid shit like all the acids and poisons and toxins and nasty chemicals they supposedly use, even in some cases in ship to ship combat. How is that better than the Vorlons or Shadows, who at least use a fucking beam weapon?)

That said, some aspects of the 'Nids tend to be better designed "magic" than some other examples, and the Vorlons or Shadows aren't really the worst offenders there since the Vong were far far far far far more absurd in application than the Vorlons/Shadows ever could be. (I'd say the "energy being" BS about the First Ones annoyed me far more.)

Oh and the inherent "superiority" of organic technology in the B5 universe was established back in the season one episode "Infection" which was one of the first handful of episodes they put out (Its notable because it had retarded ideas like self healing and "weapons which generate their own energy like fireflies" or something other idiotic.)

[Starglider]

And I'm aware that at times B5 did CLAIM they were more advanced because of biowank via in-universe's charcter statements. What 'I' am trying to get across is that B5 is a setup where they could actually get away with it BECAUSE of the biowank having a billion year head start.

What conceivable reason would there be for both sides in an eons long conflict to deliberately use inferior technology? There is absolutely no indication of such a sentiment; the intent of the writers was clearly that 'organic technology' was the pinnacle of what was possible in the setting (the ridiculously advanced 'third space' aliens also had organic looking ships). The best available rationalisation is that the elder races are using some kind of active nanotech materials, which look 'organic' when examined with the younger race's scanners (e.g. they have self-repair, fine-grained fluid and control networks reminiscent of blood/nerves, micro-scale modularisation similar to cell structure etc). They are 'alive' in an abstract sense but are actually engineered and use sophisticated metal/composite nanostructures rather than protein-based chemistry.

This rationalisation is not possible for races like the tyranids, that are explicitly described as genetically engineered creatures with squishy organs, gaping mouths etc.

[CaptainChewbacca]

In B5 they stated the bio-armor of the whitestar ships was inherently superior because it was able to bio-adapt to the incoming energy, and thus only had to deal with the physical impact.

Yeah, they actually said that.

[Coyote]

Ah yes, the Yuuzhan Vong. ... their weird linked ball-head communication device.

Which would make phone sex a phenomenal experience.







That said, I dislike the Vong. The biotech in Bab5, for some reason, didn't seem so... "intrusive". They were just... superior, and that was that, due to million-year head starts.

[Stofsk]

Biotech ships with a billion year head start.

Why is the time span so important? Regular engineering with a billion year head start would be superior to biotech ships with a billion year head start. The point is though even their billion year headstart is meaningless if there's a telepath that can jam them. (talking about the battlecrabs)

In a way that's somewhat better than something like the Vong from SW. Because what really made the battlecrabs frightening is their superior hyperspace ability, which allowed them to exit without needing to open a jump point. Sneak attacks could then be devastatingly short and brutal. Similarly the power in their cutter beams was enough to go through Narn heavy cruisers in seconds. But structurally they're quite weak. The Vorlons in comparison seem more wanky because they don't have the advantages the Shadows have, but they don't have the weaknesses either. A Vorlon squidship seems more robust than a battlecrab (hell one of them even rams a battlecrab and smashes it, and it doesn't even have a scratch).

[Nephtys]

The Gunbuster Space Monsters are pretty much up there. Not only can they have an FTL Speed capable of traversing multiple galaxies (then again, so do humans in that), but are capable of spawning thousands of multikilometers sized monsters out of stars they eat. Stars. They blow up planets also.

In the follow-up sequel, they're able to drag black holes with them to use as power sources. The big one dragging about a black hole was to be stopped by humans building a mass driver to fire EARTH at it, so yeah. All while they're apparently made out of soft meat on the inside, which is even edible by humans.

[Ford Prefect]

The Gunbuster Space Monsters are pretty much up there. Not only can they have an FTL Speed capable of traversing multiple galaxies (then again, so do humans in that), but are capable of spawning thousands of multikilometers sized monsters out of stars they eat. Stars. They blow up planets also.

In the follow-up sequel, they're able to drag black holes with them to use as power sources. The big one dragging about a black hole was to be stopped by humans building a mass driver to fire EARTH at it, so yeah. All while they're apparently made out of soft meat on the inside, which is even edible by humans.

To be fair, only one dragged black holes around, and the Excelio Variable Gravity Well was unusual even by Space Monster standards, given that it (somehow) matured in a black hole, and then ate more (it was also ten times the size of the previously most massive Space Monster types). Notably the humans using black holes for power is probably what made them individually more formidable than Space monsters. While RX-7 machine weapons were not spectacular in combat, they were probably running on more conventional power sources: black hole fueled Buster Machines, Sizzlers and capital ships killed space monsters by the tens and hundreds of thousands.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What conceivable reason would there be for both sides in an eons long conflict to deliberately use inferior technology? There is absolutely no indication of such a sentiment; the intent of the writers was clearly that 'organic technology' was the pinnacle of what was possible in the setting (the ridiculously advanced 'third space' aliens also had organic looking ships). The best available rationalisation is that the elder races are using some kind of active nanotech materials, which look 'organic' when examined with the younger race's scanners (e.g. they have self-repair, fine-grained fluid and control networks reminiscent of blood/nerves, micro-scale modularisation similar to cell structure etc). They are 'alive' in an abstract sense but are actually engineered and use sophisticated metal/composite nanostructures rather than protein-based chemistry.

That's exactly what I always thought, because the Vorlon and Shadow ships being actually organic or "squishy" did not make any sense. The correct term for what you describe would me biomimicry or biomimetics, but obviously Straczynski did not know that back then. It's not that surprising either, since biomimicry has only really surfaced as an engineering concept during the last decade. On the other hand, even if he had known that, it is not good writing to use obscure terms in fiction, so calling it "organic" or "living" would have been a good idea in any case. Of course he is not a scientist or engineer; he for example attributed fusion reactors much higher power generation figures than are really realistically possible until some fatty nerd pointed out the error.

[Serafina]

Isn't the carnifex from 40k meant to be able to swim in the magma of a planet or some such bollocks? That's a bit difficult to swallow.

Where does it say that?


Anyway, from all i know, the Tyranids seem pretty reasonable.
Their ships survive by sheer bulk, not by impenetrable regenerating armor.
Their ranged weapons are pretty reasonable - generally shorter ranges and bad penetration compared to technological ones.
They do not have anything but short-ranged weapons in space.

Overall, it's pretty clear that the Tyranids are not overall superior due to their purely biological technology. They often have to overspecialise into areas where their biotech is slightly better than technology, often close-combat (and it's quite believable that a creature designed for it is better than one that is not).
For me, that's why i would not label them as "biowank". It doesn't say "biological stuff is always better".

That is my criteria for biowank - when it clearly says that one side is superior because they use biotech in areas where it really would not be better. That's pretty much every area where we know that plain, old steel is just better - spaceships, tanks, planes, ranged weapons etc.

[Xon]

black hole fueled Buster Machines, Sizzlers and capital ships killed space monsters by the tens and hundreds of thousands.

This figures needs more zeros. Approximately three thousand ships in the end of Gunbuster held out against several waves composed of multi-billions of space monsters. Sure only about a thousand survived, but they survived being outnumbered 3-6 million to one.

The real biowank in that setting is the Humans who survived because of thier technological aptitude and engineering abilities.