Dune verse combat makes no sense

[Sarevok]

I never understood the in universe justification for stabbity stabbity warfare given enormous loopholes the shield technology presents. If you make a shield vulnerable to a weapon moved by a muscle powered arm you also make it exposed to wide variety of fucking ridiculously effective ranged attacks.Dune shields are supposed to stop fast moving objects. But they allow objects at speeds like those attained by humans limbs through. They also let air through as shield users are not choking to death. So...

1. Why not make a bolter type weapon ? It can be like a modern automatic weapon but instead of bullets fires slow moving explosive bolts. Upon penetrating the shields the bolt explodes and turns the shield user into delicious chunky meat.

2. What about flamethrowers ? Dune shields dont block gases at all so a flamethrower will ignore a shield as if it is not even there. Shield users need to get close to stab attack. They are just begging to get roasted alive by a good flamethrower.

3. What about chemical gas for that matter ? Even ignoring nasty military stuff just breaking out Riot police tear gas would leave the finest soldiers in Dune verse incapacitated in pain.

4. If you do wanna melee why use a knife ? Why not a long spear with a remotely triggered bomb attached ? You poke a dude with the stick and press the detonate button. No 1337 sword skills needed at all to wtfpwn the finest swordsmen there is.

5. How about zapping them with a taser weapon ? Its just a wire shot from a pistol. A properly built electrical weapon shooting conducting wires will kill Duneverses best of the best with gruesome effectiveness.

[Ghost Rider]

That's because Herbert wanted a plot device to allow him sword combat. Look at their military, think of the fact every major power is supposed to have enough firepower to bomb multiple planets back to the stone age and realize that personal combat was just something he wanted to give a romantic feel to it. I mean for fuck's sake, think of what the Butlerian Jihad represents and think how fucking insane to have any industrial society be that insane towards technology.

And all you can feebly come up with a complaint over their military? The answer is we can surmise some ideas but no one will fucking know unless we dig up his dead body and resurrect him to also ask him why does he hate gay men and little boys.

[Stark]

How does a spear with a bomb work against a swordsman when you have to have already hit (and thus won) for it to work? Swords can block spears you know.

[Uraniun235]

If I remember right, what we see in Dune is not general warfare per se, but a kind of limited warfare agreed upon by all the major powers and intended to limit civilian injury as much as possible.

If you make a shield vulnerable to a weapon moved by a muscle powered arm you also make it exposed to wide variety of fucking ridiculously effective ranged attacks.Dune shields are supposed to stop fast moving objects. But they allow objects at speeds like those attained by humans limbs through.

Wait so let me get this straight, do you think that if I'm wearing a shield and you try to punch me, the shield will just let your fist right in? Because I'm pretty sure that's not at all how this works.

[remus2]

1. Why not make a bolter type weapon ? It can be like a modern automatic weapon but instead of bullets fires slow moving explosive bolts. Upon penetrating the shields the bolt explodes and turns the shield user into delicious chunky meat.

Would a small bolt like ammo at velocity of a swung sword not be subject to the paintball effect?
I’d prefer a dark eldar repeater crossbow. Just do not know the exact velocity resistance of said shield. They may be variable, the velocity resistance, or change from second to second in a defined interval so a slow moving projectile should have considerable mass ... like a crossbow bolt. Alas I don’t know if even that would pass

2. What about flamethrowers ? Dune shields don’t block gases at all so a flamethrower will ignore a shield as if it is not even there. Shield users need to get close to stab attack. They are just begging to get roasted alive by a good flamethrower.
3. What about chemical gas for that matter ? Even ignoring nasty military stuff just breaking out Riot police tear gas would leave the finest soldiers in Dune verse incapacitated in pain.
5. How about zapping them with a taser weapon ? Its just a wire shot from a pistol. A properly built electrical weapon shooting conducting wires will kill Duneverses best of the best with gruesome effectiveness.

What about a Nbc armor resistant to the penetration of said shot wires and azbestlike properties. They could develop it fast enough should heavy fighting ensue with such weapons over a prolonged period

4. If you do wanna melee why use a knife ? Why not a long spear with a remotely triggered bomb attached ? You poke a dude with the stick and press the detonate button. No 1337 sword skills needed at all to wtfpwn the finest swordsmen there is.
quote]
A spear or halebard is probably the move reserved for the ultimate genius of the dune universe as such an idea was removed from the gene structure by robotic gods
Seriously that probably would bea the best weapon for a surprised force of the duneverce. Sparta reborn.
My shot for an devils advocate. I know pretty lousy, but i am still green.

[Sarevok]

Wait so let me get this straight, do you think that if I'm wearing a shield and you try to punch me, the shield will just let your fist right in? Because I'm pretty sure that's not at all how this works.

They let sharp thingies moved by your arms through. Why would they block your arms ? Is not the main criterion for Dune shields is that they let low speed objects through ? Low speeds as in slow enough that people can swipe a sword but not shoot a rifle bullet.

[Aaron]

Would a small bolt like ammo at velocity of a swung sword not be subject to the paintball effect?

I think you missed the bit where they explode.

[remus2]

Would a small bolt like ammo at velocity of a swung sword not be subject to the paintball effect?

I think you missed the bit where they explode.

I was thinking about aiming. They have a low mass and a low speed, so wind could knock them out of desired trajectory.
But of course if you imagine a Gatling like device shooting them mixed with tracers and a generous ammo supply could correct the aiming while constantly shooting.

Then the others use multiple high-powered wind fans and hairdryers from different angles , switching them on and of to protect the troop formations.

[Bilbo]

First off the shields only allow the "slow blade" through. The implication is that the weapon has to move at an inches per second rate. Not sure how you are going to get a ranged weapon to move that slow.

Second in the movie at least one of Leto's, Duncan Idaho I think, is taken out by a ranged weapon that drills right through the shield to kill him.

Knives and shields are not battlefield weapons. They are the ritual weapons of a society that has accepted dueling. The one case where we see them used on the battlefield does not bode well for the user.

In addition it stated that hitting a shield with a lasgun results in a nuclear level explosion.

[remus2]

In addition it stated that hitting a shield with a lasgun results in a nuclear level explosion.

Imagine a cylon skinjob getting in dune.
First objective: Analyze culture and adapt.
Second objective: Get lasgun
Third objective: Let the sniping begin

Conclusion: someone determined enough could turn this setting in today’s worst nightmare Nukes everywhere

If you are at war, why not use the enemy as ordanance? You get free Atomics !

[Uraniun235]

Wait so let me get this straight, do you think that if I'm wearing a shield and you try to punch me, the shield will just let your fist right in? Because I'm pretty sure that's not at all how this works.

They let sharp thingies moved by your arms through. Why would they block your arms ? Is not the main criterion for Dune shields is that they let low speed objects through ? Low speeds as in slow enough that people can swipe a sword but not shoot a rifle bullet.

You can't swipe a sword through a shield. It's lower-speed than that.

In the book, when Paul's knife-fighting a Fremen, he has a hard time of it because he's used to slowing his hand enough to penetrate the shield, whereas the Fremen have no such habits; they think he's toying with the guy, when really he's just been trained to move slowly near the body so that he can penetrate the shield.

[Stofsk]

1. Why not make a bolter type weapon ? It can be like a modern automatic weapon but instead of bullets fires slow moving explosive bolts. Upon penetrating the shields the bolt explodes and turns the shield user into delicious chunky meat.

How slow is the bolt? Because if it's so slow that it can penetrate the shield, it should be slow enough for the guy to... um... sidestep out of the line of fire.

EDIT: by the way, idiot, there are dart-throwers in the book too - effectiveness depends on what shield setting is available and on relative velocities of the opponents.

2. What about flamethrowers ? Dune shields dont block gases at all so a flamethrower will ignore a shield as if it is not even there. Shield users need to get close to stab attack. They are just begging to get roasted alive by a good flamethrower.

The guy would need to be shieldless though, wouldn't he? Which would mean he would be vulnerable to a lasgun.

3. What about chemical gas for that matter ? Even ignoring nasty military stuff just breaking out Riot police tear gas would leave the finest soldiers in Dune verse incapacitated in pain.

Gas and poisons are actually commonly used in Dune you twit.

4. If you do wanna melee why use a knife ? Why not a long spear with a remotely triggered bomb attached ? You poke a dude with the stick and press the detonate button. No 1337 sword skills needed at all to wtfpwn the finest swordsmen there is.

What the flying fuck are you on about? Who the fuck would use an exploding spear in melee combat?

Jesus fucking christ.

5. How about zapping them with a taser weapon ? Its just a wire shot from a pistol. A properly built electrical weapon shooting conducting wires will kill Duneverses best of the best with gruesome effectiveness.

Because it wouldn't penetrate the shield. Only slow-moving objects can penetrate shields. It's actually stated in the book, 'the slow blade penetrates the shield' or something. The quote is like that. You can't even do fast blade movements through a shield.

[Shroom Man 777]

A lasgun+shield blows up the on the lasgun side too.

You can have a gun that shoots a bullet/missile that shoots a laser at the shield!

[remus2]

A lasgun+shield blows up the on the lasgun side too.

You can have a gun that shoots a bullet/missile that shoots a laser at the shield!

and multiple shots on a formation of troops with this gun and you have a dead army. Genial

How many Mt would a 10 man squad of shielded guys release if shot at about the same time?

[Stofsk]

A lasgun+shield blows up the on the lasgun side too.

You can have a gun that shoots a bullet/missile that shoots a laser at the shield!

Actually lasguns set up to fire on a timer or by remote viewing is a common problem in the Duneverse. At the dinner scene in Dune, Leto gets called away because Thufir Hawat's intel brought word that a shipment of Harkonnen lasguns was intercepted, and that the danger exists that one may have got through, so Leto was at a command post and Jessica and Paul would spend the night at an underground bunker just in case.

[Ryan Thunder]

What the flying fuck are you on about? Who the fuck would use an exploding spear in melee combat?

Jesus fucking christ.

Stofsk, mang, he's clearly just taking a page from the Warhammer 40,000 dudes. I mean, seriously, the Rough Riders do it, and they're hardasses, so it must be a good idea!

[Shroom Man 777]

A lasgun+shield blows up the on the lasgun side too.

You can have a gun that shoots a bullet/missile that shoots a laser at the shield!

and multiple shots on a formation of troops with this gun and you have a dead army. Genial

How many Mt would a 10 man squad of shielded guys release if shot at about the same time?

These missiles would be shot out of MiG-17s or B-36 Pacemakers, not from stupid VTOL helicopters or anything, and thus they can escape the blast radius!

[Aaron]

Stofsk, mang, he's clearly just taking a page from the Warhammer 40,000 dudes. I mean, seriously, the Rough Riders do it, and they're hardasses, so it must be a good idea!

A lance isn't a spear, it's a fair bit longer. Otherwise the RR's would blow themselves up, or seriously injure themselves.

[Oskuro]

What the flying fuck are you on about? Who the fuck would use an exploding spear in melee combat?

Jesus fucking christ.

Stofsk, mang, he's clearly just taking a page from the Warhammer 40,000 dudes. I mean, seriously, the Rough Riders do it, and they're hardasses, so it must be a good idea!

Sorry to have reality bitchslap you like this gentlemen (LINK)

LUNGE MINE

Perhaps the oddest of these antitank charges is the so-called "Lunge Mine" encountered on Leyte Island. This weapon—an armor-piercing charge on the end of a pole—derives its name from the way in which it must be thrust against the side of a tank in order to detonate.

The mine is an explosive-filled, sheet-steel cone, about 12 inches long and 8 inches in diameter at the base. As in all hollow charges, the cavity in the bottom of the cone tends to guide the force of the explosion out from the bottom of the cone and against the armor plate of the target. A metal sleeve extends from the top, or point end, of the cone and houses the simple firing device—a nail on the end of the broomstick-like handle which fits into the sleeve. The detonator is little more than an ordinary blasting cap set into the top of the cone, where the nail will strike the cap if the handle is jammed down in the sleeve. During transport, however, the handle is held immobile in the sleeve by a simple safety pin inserted through the sleeve and handle. A further safety feature is a thin holding pin, or shear wire, similarly installed through sleeve and handle. Three legs, 5 1/4 inches long, are attached to the bottom of the cone; the Japanese claim that these legs increase the penetrating power of the weapon. The penetrating effect of the charge is greater when the explosion occurs a few inches away from the armor.

The Japanese suicide soldier will use the Lunge Mine as he would a rifle and bayonet, thrusting the three legs of the mine base against the side of the tank. The mine explodes on contact.

The Japanese suicide soldier has been taught to wield this weapon as he would a rifle and bayonet. The prescribed method of operation is for the soldier to remove the safety pin as he approaches the tank to be attacked, and to grasp the center of the handle with his left hand, and the butt end with his right. Then, holding the stick level, with the mine to the front, he lunges forward as in a bayonet attack, thrusting the three legs on the mine base against the side of the tank. The shock of contact will break the shear wire and the striker nail will be shoved into the detonator cap, thus exploding the mine as it is held against the armor. At this point the Jap soldier's mission ends for all time.

From experiments conducted in Manila, the Japanese claim that the 6 1/2 pounds of explosive in the mine is capable of penetrating 6 inches of armor, provided that the mine contacts the plate squarely. However, if contact is made at an angle of 60 degrees, the mine is reputed to penetrate 4 inches of armor. To date all attempts by the enemy to use the Lunge Mine against our tanks have met with failure.

[Stofsk]

I'm sorry, but how does that address the point? That's specifically an anti-tank weapon devised by desperate soldiers who were also suicidally eager to die for their country. It's not like they engaged other infantry soldiers with melee weapons designed to explode now did they?

Also, I should have mentioned this before but Dune shields negate the effects of explosions. That's the other reason why this hypothetical exploding spear idea would be rubbish. Dune fighters are trained in melee so they would close the distance between the spear-wielder and get within knife range. If the explosive goes off the guy won't die because the shield is on. Meanwhile the spear-wielder has lost his weapon and if he's got a shield on, now has to fight the other guy with a knife or sword anyway.

If you're looking for suicidal soldiers defeating shields, look at lasguns being used in that fashion already in the narrative. Otherwise, the idea of using a melee weapon that explodes by design is just terminally stupid.

EDIT: I suppose it's irony that your own link oskuro references how ineffective this weapon was even in it's own limited context

[Bakustra]

It's also worth noting that while you could theoretically defeat shields through application of force and momentum, the problem is that such weapons are impractical for personal use at best, and for larger weapons, you run into the problem of targeting individual soldiers (which are the only ones with shields small enough to be defeated by a practical kinetic weapon) with manual targeting. Orbital bombardment is pretty much nonexistent, and mechanized warfare is impractical due to the stratification of society and lack of industrialization. Note that by the post-Scattering era, shields are no longer used, suggesting that they eventually became obsolete.

[Stofsk]

I don't think there's a lack of industrialisation in the duneverse Bakustra. Geidi Prime is described as an industrial wasteland isn't it? Or at least that's always been the impression I've had of it. There are also mechanical and electrical devices in use, and someone has to build the spaceships and ornithopters and other vehicles and devices.

[Bakustra]

I don't think there's a lack of industrialisation in the duneverse Bakustra. Geidi Prime is described as an industrial wasteland isn't it? Or at least that's always been the impression I've had of it. There are also mechanical and electrical devices in use, and someone has to build the spaceships and ornithopters and other vehicles and devices.

You're partially right- Baron Harkonnen muses that mechanized warfare is impossible because of the paucity of technically-educated workers, not because of the lack of industrialization (but we don't get a good look at Giedi Prime that I remember until Heretics), but the overall balance of society (and CHOAM products) is in favor of agriculture, barring exceptions like Ix and Richese.

[Ghost Rider]

I don't think there's a lack of industrialisation in the duneverse Bakustra. Geidi Prime is described as an industrial wasteland isn't it? Or at least that's always been the impression I've had of it. There are also mechanical and electrical devices in use, and someone has to build the spaceships and ornithopters and other vehicles and devices.

An interesting point of industrialization is where to we put it at. What little is revealed is that Dune has an extreme anathema to robotics and AI technologies. The only problem is we are only given that computers may not mimic man as a guideline, yet we can surmise some level of such given their architecture(The size of Paul's Palace is massive) and as you said their mechanical devices would not be possible without some level of computer power.

But on the flip side, we have a lot of musing about even things as small as artillery being scrapped because of needing the metal.

[Mr Bean]

I'm sorry, but how does that address the point? That's specifically an anti-tank weapon devised by desperate soldiers who were also suicidally eager to die for their country. It's not like they engaged other infantry soldiers with melee weapons designed to explode now did they?

Spar Torpedoes?

That's what your asking for right? A bomb on a stick designed to engage enemy targets? It may not be infantry but ships instead but the principles remain the same. The idea sounds stupid and lets be blunt it's wasteful to simply put a bomb on a stick when you can simply launch it. But such tactics have been used against other targets before.

The Japanese version is suicidal, but with some smart engineering I'm sure you could make it much less likely to kill you by forcing more of the blast forward. Perhaps a half shield designed to force the explosive force up instead of directly back.