IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

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IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

PeZook and I were thinkings. And it's late, so why the fuck not.



What if the Avatar sequel does give the milwankers and Sarevokerritches what they want? What if the humans DO return and DO glass the shit out of Pandora with orbital Tunguskoids and strafe the fleeing blue people with Space MiGs with cockpits enclosed in corrugated sheet metal instead of glass canopies? H'okay. They do this because might makes right, because Jake Soolly and the Blue Bitch and the Eywah and the Na'vi don't have anything that can stop them. And because we're such big bad guys that we get hardons for killing defenseless blue people who we hate because they defeated our big awesome toys and mercenary Mareens with bullshit copouts.

Whatever survivor there are end up being placed in reservations or plantations or tarnations. The Earth gets all the precious minerals and unobtaniums it needs, because apparently it is a debatable life or death scenario, and so the ends do justify the means, and all that jazz. All the pesky locals are marginalized and whittled down. Biochemical warfare blankets (haha) the land. The human reigns supreme. It is the fairy tale ending for Spacemerica and we can all sleep soundly in knowing that the right thing has been done. :)

Then, because it's no-shit obvious that the Pandoran ecosystem is unnatural and perhaps artificially-induced, the actual makers of Pandora - great beings capable of shaping an entire world and engineering the minutiae of an entire impossibly complicated sentient ecosystem heretofore unknown to mankind (and which will remain unknown since they bombed the shit out of all those stupid trees) - return from their sojourn beyond the nine vectors of the known and unknown universe, and find out that the living biotech organic planet they were using as a laptop just got trashed by some piddling little monkeys who can barely make it off their planet to reach other worlds, dumb little mouthbreathing apes who just broke their stuff with crude primitive technoshit that shoot little pieces of metal from their ends.

They're pissed. This beautiful world they crafted is gone. But they won't get angry. They'll get even.

So they come to our world, Earth. This miserable polluted little planet with a ravaged environment. Filled with warmongering little shits who're drunk on victory, celebrating the violent destruction of the hated world Pandora and all the loathsomely peaceful primitive naturalistic nature-worshipping Na'vi in it.

The sight of this horrifies the alien Pandora-makers. Yet they feel pity. For the people of this world, so hateful and warlike, were shaped by such miserable and grotesque environs into the monsters they are now.

Instead of revengeance, the Pandora Makers instead do us a service.

They come to our world and destroy all of our militaries with one fell swoop. Their living technologies, mighty enough to sculpt whole worlds, rend our warmachines asunder with a destrucity incomprehensible to our primitive minds. We regress to mere apes huddling in the darkness of the cave at night, by the firelight, in fear of the thunder and lightning shattering the bleeding sky. For to them, that is all we are.

After mere minutes of wasting our pathetic attempts at resistance, at bravado, they begin giving us the blessings of their kind. They reshape our polluted planet into the form of that moon we just despoiled. They turn Earth into a new Pandora. Sculpting its continents, intelligently designing its ecosystems.

And then, at the head of it all, they come for us.

Wicked creatures fat with greed and envy and hate and rage. They see us and pity us. Their anger gives way to a genuine desire to... make us better. For they, like gods before us, with all their knowledge of the cosmos and universal truths - do these not make them righter than us, do these not allow them to judge us and decide "what is best for us"?

As we do to the poorer and more primitive peoples kneeling before the sword, so do they too do unto us.

The great whaleships that fill the sky with their vast immeasurable bulk sifts through the teeming masses of humanity as though we were but microbial mollusks floating in the sea. They sort the wicked from the good. The just from the unjust.

As they remake the world into a new Pandora, complete with a new Lifa Tree reaching into the heavens with tendrilous branches like the extended fingers of a hand, so are we ourselves - mankind, humanity - remade into new forms.

Those few found to be just and worthy are remade in new forms to be optimally harmonious with the Pandora'd Earth. Cerulean in complexion, with the organic appendages needed to organo-spiritually commune with the world-spirit of the Second Eywah. They have been turned into Na'vi.

And those many whose mind-souls were found lacking are instead turned into lower forms. Minds more primal, more animalistic, consistent with their base desires and the impulses that led them astray. They are turned into the creatures that inhabit the ecosystem of this new Pandora, with the neural-dendrites needed still to interface with the Second Eywah, but the world-soul will only accept their communion when they have become worthy.

For these wretches must live a thousand lives in these lower forms, until their soul-minds are purified of the ills which brought the wrongs of the past. As they attain higher awareness, the Second Eywah grants them higher forms in their next incarnations, on and on until they finally become men - blue men - once more. This is when they have become truly pure of heart and spirit, and thus worthy to live in tranquility and in commune with the world-spirit.

It is Samsara and Karma on a cosmic scale. These great progenitor aliens have come to bring balance and harmony, through the cycle of life, of desire and suffering, of enlightenment and awareness. For the inhabitants of what was then Pandora too were wicked in their ways, before they were remade into the Na'vi. It is ironic then, that their destroyers be given the same fate - the same chance at redemption and salvation.

The aliens would ask themselves. Are we right to dictate the wills and fates of these peoples? But perhaps they would say, We are but gods to them, with our knowledge of the cosmos. They are but infantile children and must be taught a lesson by their betters, by their elders. As we ourselves so ignorantly judge others less than us, so too are we judged by those greater than we - and thus we become humble, and better.


And, shit. James Cameron filled his movie with "avatar" and "reincarnation" and blue-skinned people. It's a huge ass reference to Hindu mythology, and the next movies should totally involve these psycho-spiritual whatsits involving entire planetary populations undertaking the cycle of death and rebirth until they make final communion with an intergalactic Brahman.

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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by That NOS Guy »

This is really just Blue Man's burden.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by PeZook »

That NOS Guy wrote:This is really just Blue Man's burden.
Yes, exactly. There are people who advocate we bring industry and roads and apple pie to the primitive savages of Pandora at the point of a gun. We will make the Na'Vi dress modestly and appreciate the benefits of SCIENCE, or they will die trying.

So why not reverse it and have people way more powerful than we are treat us exactly like we'd like to do to anybody who doesn't stand a chance? They'd show us the benefit of their ways. They'd IMPOSE their ways on us, and anybody who doesn't like it can fuck off and die,because anybody with better technology than you obviously knows what's best.

No bullshit copouts, no finding the command center controlling the alien UAVs so that you can take back Los Angeles. The Pandoramakers are to us like we are to fruit flies.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I don't like the one-dimensional characterization of the Pandora Makers waaah waaah movie sucks.

PeZook was originally going on about how the RDA and humans should get what they want and atrocify the shit out of the Na'vi, only to return back to Earth and get hanged at Nuremberg for being a bunch of genocidal fucks. Then, like, this would beg the question of "now what would those milwanking fucks feel?"

But then I suggested that great intergalactic arthropods come and visit Earth and with a resonant cascading wave of orgone energy, they would liquefy the entire ecosystem of Earth - plants and animals, men, women and children, all - and with lightminute-long proboscises they'd slurp the denatured remains of our mortal world and ingest it within themselves, reconstituting all that is left of us into new forms that they then excrete from their cosmic bodies onto an Earth remade into the image of the tranquil moon-world that was destroyed by human greed.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Mayabird »

It would be interesting and maybe instructive too to see how people who believe in "might makes right" react when they're not the mighty ones.

Also this was exactly my idea for how a sequel would go if the milwankers had their way. I may have mentioned this way back when but I don't remember. Well, you know what they say about great minds. :wink:
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Post by Ryan Thunder »

Mayabird wrote:It would be interesting and maybe instructive too to see how people who believe in "might makes right" react when they're not the mighty ones.
They might as well just say "humans first" and be done with it.

I'm sure that when it comes to it, that's what they mean. Not sure why they'd be afraid to say it, though.
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Post by PeZook »

Maybe they're afraid to say it because it means they would also have to admit that the aliens are perfectly justified in conquering earth, using babies as apetizers and horribly mutating adults into cripples for kicks, as long as they can do it effortlessly thanks to their superior tech?

There's simply no way around: if your ethical system says you're justified in abusing other sentients because you're a human, and human interests come first, then it's equally true for any other species that can squash us like bugs.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Ryan Thunder »

PeZook wrote:Maybe they're afraid to say it because it means they would also have to admit that the aliens are perfectly justified in conquering earth, using babies as apetizers and horribly mutating adults into cripples for kicks, as long as they can do it effortlessly thanks to their superior tech?

There's simply no way around: if your ethical system says you're justified in abusing other sentients because you're a human, and human interests come first, then it's equally true for any other species that can squash us like bugs.
I would say that you're working under the assumption that these people are logically consistent and as loathe to engage in hypocrisy as you are.

For the record, I'm not, but I don't use it to justify douchey positions, unlike these people.
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Post by dworkin »

Hasn't this story already been written? In 1898?
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Post by evilsoup »

The obvious difference is that War of the Worlds ends with the Martians being defeated out of nowhere by bacteria, whereas this keeps going on to the logical conclusion of humanity being utterly destroyed by the ubertech aliens.
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Post by Starglider »

PeZook wrote:There's simply no way around: if your ethical system says you're justified in abusing other sentients because you're a human, and human interests come first, then it's equally true for any other species that can squash us like bugs.
I don't think you're saying anything controversial there. The belief of Darth Hoth et al is that all intelligent species should do their utmost to enslave and exterminate all other intelligent species, because anything else is weak and unnatural. They would not call aliens trying to exterminate humans immoral, on the contrary they might afford them a little grudging respect if they hate humanity as much as the xenophobes hate them (plus of course mutual hate makes recruiting easier). You are operating in a moral paradigm that tries to generalise, seek fairness and ignore (or even cherish) superficial differences. They are operating in a paradigm that defines humanity (and most likely a small national and/or genetic subset of humanity) as the apex of all creation a priori, and actively rejects generalisation. While strictly all goal systems are arbitrary, in human terms this is still a pathetic humanist rationalisation of atavistic fear of the unknown and primal racist & religious urges.

The appropriate response is to ensure that these individuals never get any kind of authority or input into significant decisions. Alas, easier said than done.
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Post by sirocco »

1- Huh must we really become blue skinned people? Never been a fan of the smurfs...

2- How long before the devolved ape try to subdue Eywah 2?
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Post by evilsoup »

2- How long before the devolved ape try to subdue Eywah 2?
Well if the aliens judge us and only put (what they consider to be) the morally best people as navi, then we never would try to subdue the planet; it would be psychologically impossible.
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Post by Cesario »

Someone seems to have forgotten that the Na'vi weren't the morally superior ones in this movie. I realize it was easy to overlook.

The Na'vi were warlike and confrontational from the outset. The atrocities by the humans that supposedly provoked the Na'vi to close the school weren't in the movie, or even mentioned in the movie. Going just off the movie, the Na'vi allowed the school to exist long enough to get a sense of who and what they were dealing with, then when they felt they understood enough, shut down communication, diplomacy, and mutual benefit, in favor of confrontation and smug self-superiority.

The humans, on the other hand, were consistently trying to establish peaceful compromise. They felt they had a fair trade to offer, but the Na'vi never gave them a chance to present their offer.

Extremists existed on both sides of this conflict, but no one on the Na'vi side (at least no one shown in the movie) wanted to negotiate. Everyone except military commander psycho was trying to get a peaceful settement the whole way through. And really, I think a reasonable argument could be made about the people carrying out the attack might well have been doing so under duress because they were scared shitless of commander psycho, who was already trying to murder human civilians.

Why did the Na'vi accept their great white savior Jake when they rejected the scientists who were already trying to share knowledge, establish peaceful contact, and all that? Jake was a warior. And that's what continued to gain him respect in their society. The Na'vi as a culture didn't respect words, or knowledge, or restraint. They respected fighting and killing.

And you know what? I don't think that the humans should have shown up and wiped out their world. I think we're better than that. We're better than them. Here we have a humanity that has taken a hard look at its history and is genuinely trying to do better. Everyone in-universe sees the native american paralells, and they're fighting as hard as they can to not let this go down the same road. (Again, except commander psycho.)

The pompous blue elves aren't making that easy, but as hard as they're making it, humanity is still trying. Even in the face of what looks to be quite possibly a slow death for their own homeworld, they're acting with restraint in their attempts to aquire the unobtainium that just might be the salvation of their world.

Conflict comes because, as the Na'vi point out, we have nothing to offer them. Which really should have taken more people aback, but it seems to be the litteral truth in this universe. The Na'vi, to the last man, woman, and child, have absolutely no interest in anything humanity could possibly offer. And yet even while being slapped in the face with this unimaginably one-sided negotating position, humans are still trying to do this nicely. Even when we escalate to violence, it's still controled and measured. Symbolic targets are chosen because the goal isn't genocide. Genocide would be easier, but instead, all that they're doing is trying to demonstrate to the ignorant savages just how much we'd been holding back this whole time in the interests of not causing them undue harm.

No one knew about the sentient planet or the organic supercomputer afterlife thing they had going. And there's no indication that anyone except commander psycho would have ignored that had it come out.

Contrivance after contrivance comes up to try to provoke humanity in this, and only one man snaps in the face of a God despirately trying to turn you into the bad guy. The future of humanity should be so gloriously enlightened.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Uh, no one in the Na'vi side wanted to have their home destroyed and turned into a pit mine while their entire tribe ends up being displaced to who knows where.

That was their home, and they had every right to refuse the humans. It was the humans who refused and couldn't compromise on or accept the idea of "you can't mine on the homelands of these people who refuse you".

Since, you know, even when the movie started, the RDA enviro-rape bulldozers were already plowing their way towards the Home Tree, they were already en route, though that route would take them months. If you see a bunch of armored vehicles on a non-stop journey towards your home, with the intent of bulldozing your home, you're not gonna bake a casserole for the Imperialist Spacemericans Welcoming Committee. You're gonna try to shoot their tires flat with 9-foot arrows (oh no, the Na'vi are violently attacking our unmanned drone bulldozers!).

It's like, Martians going "we want to turn Washington DC into a shitmine", the humans going "no, Washington DC is our home and our capital and important to us, we refuse", and the Martians going "waaaah bad meanie humans won't compromises bloo bloo bloo!" before going on to heatray some folks.



But this is all besides the point. The Pandora Makers aren't only going to destroy us. As I outlined in my OP, they're going to remake us, they are going to make us... perfect.

The cycle of theozoological metatechnorganic reincarnation to purge all human impurity until we achieve cosmic harmony with the true order of the universe, when the sound of the music of the spheres will wash away all unneeded desires that are the cause of suffering, human or otherwise, resulting in a new creation through the power of destruction. It will be a Shadow Moses. An Outer Haven. A World With No Boundaries. Snaaaake!
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Post by evilsoup »

Oh god really, are you serious?

Okay for a start: are you accepting out-of-movie stuff, or not? Because you reject the shit with the school in order to paint the navi in the worst possible light; and then a few paragraphs later you say how the Earth is dying and we need the unobtanium to survive (which there is no hint of in the film: there, unobtanium=space oil), in order to paint the humans in the best possible light.

Hey genius, how long do you think those bulldozers were taking to reach space elf new yorkthe navi hometree? The humans were clearly not negotiating in good faith. They were putting corporate profits (because that is all that was at stake for the humans, so far as I can tell) above the wellbeing of sapient people. But fuck 'em, there's gold in them thar hills so the natives can move the fuck out.

I agree, it's good that rather than genociding the navi, the RDA instead blows up one of their major population centres to demonstrate to those ignorant heathen blueskins their proper place in the scheme of things. And you're right, the grunts were only following commander fuckhead's orders, so it's okay for them to firebomb occupied homes.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I bet if the Na'vi weren't blue and were instead Arkansas good old boys, the Home Tree was instead a giant ass skyscraper, and the Soul Tree was a glow in the dark psychospiritual flagpole with the stars and stripes waving off it, and the RDA were all dark complexioned bearded men wearing spacesuit turban burqas to breath in the alien atmosphere, and were after some Allahtanium or Koranuminum, everyone would be chanting in support of the plucky freedom fighters for using innovation and improvisation to defeat the swarthy invaders, and we would all be "that is their land, they have every right to defend it from these usurpers! NAVIMERICA FUCK YEAH!" and all that shit.

If those burning space horses were instead burning biotechnorganic Ford pickup trucks, and the Toruk was some living fighter jet with radar absorbent scales, people would be weeping and Amerivatar would totally win the Pulitzer Prize, the Congressional Medal of Democracy, and the Purple Heart of Freedom.
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Post by evilsoup »

NAVIRINES!

I think the Independence Day aliens were completely justified in reducing earth's cities to ash, how else were they going to get at the ultrawankium hidden underneath? It's okay, they weren't going to wipe out humanity, just blow up a few major population centres to teach us hairless monkey-savages our rightful place (at the foot-tentacle of our righteous masters, to whom we should be grateful for civilising us).

And I mean, look at it objectively: those savage humans killed a poor, innocent scout years before! The humans were clearly much more violent than the mining corporation the aliens worked for, who were therefore obviously right to destroy major human cities. To break human morale, you understand: it was the humane thing to do.

I honestly don't get how someone can watch Avatar and somehow think 'wow those corporate rent-a-killers were totes justified in blowing up space elf new york'.
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Post by Tasoth »

The setup makes me think of Nemo Ramjet's All Tomorrows once the Qu roll back in and find humans destroying extrasolar ecosystems. Instead of the remaking turning mankind into Na'vi, it'd feel more fitting if they lorded over Earth until they had breed the traits that had lead mankind down the path of where it was in the Avatar setting. In the short run, it gives you a potent, terrifying ending where mankind is not free to lead itself nor choose certain things in their life but also gives hope for mankind in the very long future.
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Post by Cesario »

I don't need to reach outside the movie to see that earth is dying and that what we're finding on Pandora is important to the survival of the species. We see that earth is dying or dead in terms of its ecosystem. If all that's keeping the human population alive are the evil machines that run on space oil, then it actually is a matter of survival of the species that we get ahold of the space oil, no? The humans are sapient people too. A point that tends to get overlooked, because they aren't all special and in tune with nature and shit.

As to the bulldozers, they weren't dispatched on day 1. They were dispatched by the time mighty whitie showed up, but by the time he arrived, all communication with the Na'vi was being conducted in the form of nine foot arrows in the face of any human unlucky enough to be outside the fortress the RDA was forced to set up. Also please note that the Na'vi learned that the bulldozers were on their way to home tree when mighty whitie busted one up after having gone native. They weren't responding to an action they didn't know about. No matter how in tune with nature and shit they were.

The destruction of Home Tree was certainly tragic, but it was also completely avoidable. This is why you don't close down diplomatic channels and start shooting at people better armed than you are. If it weren't so incredibly obvious that these blue space elves were a product of intelligent design, I'd have called that an example of natural selection in action.

At every turn, the humans try to talk to the Na'vi, but the racist fucks only even bothered with their almighty savior because of a multibillion dollar bioengineering project involving science they couldn't begin to understand that allowed him to posess a shell that looked more like them. And even then, they reject his warnings the instant they get it through their feline skulls that he's human under there. The entire Avatar project was there to combat the Na'vi's racism, and yet it's the humans who are being treated as the racist fuckwads by the film. Their way of life is the only way that matters. They might consider teaching the poor ignorant human a thing or two, but heaven forbid they listen to a thing he has to say that doesn't involve killing humans more efficiently.

As to the grunts going along with the insane military commander who's already tried to kill several people when they're utterly isolated as far from help as humanly possible, on a planet where everything is trying to kill them, including the blue space elves, meaning there is nowhere they can turn for help and support, yes, I think it's understandable that they didn't stand in line to be shot by commander psycho.

Edit:
Also, the Independence Day aliens did mention that their plan was to wipe out our species. We don't have to guess as to their motives. Also, again, humans tried talking to them before hostilities errupted in that movie too.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Cesario wrote: The destruction of Home Tree was certainly tragic, but it was also completely avoidable.
Yes. They could've mined at other sites that weren't on top of someone's major population center which those people might not want to give up?



I find it amusing that simply asking what if the high and mighty "nations don't set examples of others, nations make examples of others" crowd got a taste of their own medicine, inevitably - inevitably - you've got people coming in and trying to spin the Na'vi into the bad guys for vandalizing the unmanned machines of people who've made it abundantly clear that all they want to do is to bulldoze their homes, people who won't take no for an answer (gee, so I wonder why the blue guys don't want to talk to these stubborn psychopaths), and who somehow can't just avoid all these unpleasantness by mining somewhere else.

Man, I think Selfridge might've had better success in convincing Sigourney Grace Ripley on the goodness of their actions if, instead of saying "this causes a billion bucks per pound" when showing her the unobtanium, he could've said "Earth needs this mineral we will die", because I am sure all these brave souls toiling in space so far away from home are, like, preoccupied by the notion of desperately trying to save their dying world by mining more minerals.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Cesario »

Remember, they tried mining other places. They were getting shot at while they were doing that too. Where do you think those arrows in the mining equipment came from when the drones hadn't even made it anywhere near home tree yet?

The Home Tree site was chosen because of the high concentration of the mineral, with the perfectly reasonable thought that you'll decimate a lot less land mining a rich area than you will a poor area. But yes, it is unfortunate the evil, evil humans didn't take into account the Na'vi's opinion on the subject. Wait, when were the Na'vi giving their opinion on the subject? They shut down diplomatic communication so it was impossible to take their opinions on where was and wasn't okay to try to mine into account.

There's a difference between saying "no, don't bulldoze my house" and saying nothing at all, and just shooting the construction workers who show up. One is the act of a civilized being, the other is the act of a psychopath more interested in killing the other guys than he is in actually resolving the conflict.

Did it ever occur to you why this rock might be so valuable? It isn't because it's shiny and pretty. Oil isn't just a maguffin that serves no purpose in a modern industrial nation. It's a vital component in not just our economy, but also in our agriculture. Cut off the oil right this instant, people starve to death because they don't live on farmland and can't get to the farmland with the stores of food they have on hand. When the earth's biosphere is completely dead, you think that cutting off the flow of space oil will be less devistating? To actual sapient people.

Stating the value is a way of pointing out how rare and despirately needed the mineral is. Weaver's character disagreed about the best way to save humanity, believing that Pandora's plants could restore the earth biosphere and eliminate the need for space oil in the long run. Doesn't change the need for the mineral that, I'll remind you, only exists on this rock, so there's no option to go somewhere that there aren't natives to piss off.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I find it fascinating how the notion of a people, who live in harmony with nature and partake in fantastic shamanistic nature-mysticism and pretty much mind their own business, and refuse to abandon their homes, the place they've lived in for who knows how long, to a bunch of gung-ho profit-driven greedy and well-armed militarized corporate-imperialists, not only offends - but even horrifies and angers - a certain subset of people. They find these things, love for nature, mysticism, an abandonment of technology, earth-worship and an actual manifestation of this, to be abhorrent and diametrically opposed to their paradigm of steel machines, weapons of war, and all of the terrifying things we know these people adore and fawn over.

You can see them try to make up all sorts of hokey justification to spin how the weak were actually vile and dangerous, and how the strong are actually endangered and forced to do what they did for noble ends.

It's somehow telling. Who advocates the downtrodden folks who get bombed and who fight to resist a greater imperialistic power. Who cheerleads and makes excuses for the ruthless imperialistic aggressors, whether they're out for minerals or landing Lambdas on crowds of Alderaanians, etc.

Cesario wrote:Wait, when were the Na'vi giving their opinion on the subject? They shut down diplomatic communication so it was impossible to take their opinions on where was and wasn't okay to try to mine into account.
They had schools with the humans in the Avatar program, even had pictures taken, even learned fluent English.

If you can speculate this and that and how Earth is doomed without unobtanium, I'm gonna say that there was dialogue beforehand - we have pictographic evidence of Avatars and (high ranking chieftain-daughter) Na'vis chilling - and that this broke down when the humans clearly weren't too keen on the "we're not leaving our homes for your goddamn strip mining operation" response.

Quarritch and co. brought heavily armed gunships and their initial act was to use chemical weapons, and then mere minutes later, commence firebombing. They knew damn well that the Na'vi weren't keen on leaving their homes. "Oh no, the RDA didn't know the Na'vi's opinion, the blue aliens didn't answer this XYZ Lancet study survey prospectus on demolishing their fucking homes".
There's a difference between saying "no, don't bulldoze my house" and saying nothing at all, and just shooting the construction workers who show up. One is the act of a civilized being, the other is the act of a psychopath more interested in killing the other guys than he is in actually resolving the conflict.
The latter can be spun as shooting down unauthorized unmanned vehicles violating and invading sovereign Navimerican territory. Only, the Na'vi don't have Iranian hackers to override RDA remote controlled vehicles, just arrows and spears.

The Na'vi initially were more interested in learning English than shooting arrows. I wonder which greed-driven couldn't-take-no-for-an-answer must-mine-at-people's-homes assholes fucked that up.
Stating the value is a way of pointing out how rare and despirately needed the mineral is. Doesn't change the need for the mineral that, I'll remind you, only exists on this rock, so there's no option to go somewhere that there aren't natives to piss off.
Uh, stating the value of diamonds or platinum or gold wouldn't point out how crucial they are for human survival.

Your whole thing is dependent on Selfridge's "it's worth XYZ space dollars" being contrived or interpreted like tea leaves into "humanity needs it to surviveee!!!", something that was never once brought up in the movie, and which then leads to the rest of your argument and finally "the Na'vi are savages, they need to be evicted from their homes".

And there are other places on that rock that aren't located on or near population centers that have to be depopulated with military force?

Stark wrote:Holy shit Shroomotron your thread just got real.
It is ironics since my meatspace friend was also talking about this yesterday, but in regards to folks who gravitate towards Jedi or Sith or fetishize Nazi apparel.
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Re: IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

Post by Cesario »

Ah yes, the old chant that technology is evil, and only by going back to the days before having clean water, food avalible during the winter season, and prenatal care, can we truly be enlightened and decent people. All advocated over the most advanced computer network mankind has ever created, mind you.

Let me present a sequence of events for you. I will die if I don't get your blood due to some rare disease. You're the only one I can get it from. I don't need all of it, just a standard blood donation's worth. Knowing this, I go to ask you for it, offering you anything you want for it. You look at your life, and decide, there's nothing I have that you want. I try to offer other suggestions about things I could give you in exchange, point out that we don't even need to take it all in one go, we can gradually work up to the amount I need with smaller samples with more time to recover if that's your preference. You don't see what's in it for you, so you stop taking my calls. I start to get despirate and come at you with a knife. I don't try to kill you, and even try to minimize the damage I'm doing. Maybe I even go to the trouble of druging you and stealing a bit of blood so that I can survive.

Under certain moral frameworks, my actions in the above are unforgivable violations, but an important element is that I tried to do this peacefully, then when peaceful methods weren't going to work, I tried to minimize the damage of the unpeaceful method.

I don't know if you noticed this, but at the start of the story, the Na'vi had kicked out the nice scientists who were on their side running that school, who continued to be on their side, even to the point of dying for them over the course of the story. (Also note that they had to use Avatars in order to even get that much talking in. World-tree forbid they talk with these sky demons when they aren't the right skin color.)

The chemical weapons that you so decry? They were to flush the Na'vi out of Hometree so that when they blew it up, they could minimize the casualties. This was supposed to be a symbolic act, not a genocidal one. Destroy things so you can bring the other guy back to the negotating table while killing as few people as you can.

The importance to earth's survival can be derived from the repeated references to earth being a dead world, and people contniuing to emphasise how important the unobtanium mining is in the same breath.

As to the possibilities of deposits away from major population centers, I imagine not. The Unobtainium was likely just as artificial as the ecosystem, so it's highly probable that the home trees were either dependent on the resource to grow or were part of the process of creating it. But we'll never know, since efforts to talk to these people about what we know about the mineral and try to cross-reference it with what the natives know about the land don't work so good when the natives refuse to talk to you at all.
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