Eldar versus Clonies.

[Mr. Sinister]

Regarding ballistic artillery, the clones employ one of sorts. The SPHA-Ts are said to be modular, and can be fitted with either turbolasers, ion cannons, anti-vehicle laser cannons, or concussion missiles. I think the missile variant can be seen during the ground battle of Muunilist when the Republic lines were pushing into the city. SPHA-T fire was shown arching downwards into the city like ballistic artillery. Now whether they were present during the battle of geonosis is the question. Is there a source suggesting that the turbolaser variant was the only one present during the battle?

[Glimmervoid]

How come we're giving the Eldar starfighters for free?

I'm "not" giving the Eldar starfighters, the Eldar craft mentioned are their primary atmospheric fighters. Space fighters are usually larger, more heavily armed and protected, essentially more capable in most ways.

LAATs on Geonosis provided close air support, are equipped for anti-air efforts with air-air weaponry and provide a powerful anti-armour punch, as well as deploying troops and vehicles in the case of the "C" varient.

If you think the advantage is so overwhelming (i.e. that with Eldar air support in play at all the Clonies would lose.) Then your opinion is the Clonies would lose. *shrug*

Hell, forget the Phoenix and Nightwing then, just the Vampire, a troop deploying gunship, with various weaponry.

How come they're getting time to prepare dug-in positions? The robots didn't have time, how come we're rigging the battle to favor the Eldar? They're going to do way better than the robots already, why give them special privliges.

Where the hell is this stated ? besides, I doubt the Eldar would be fighting from dug in positions, ALL their heavy support is mobile to some degree. and their heaviest artillery is mounted on a 100kph+ tank.

The reason the separatists had no air support in the battle of genorish is that the clones were able to take out the hanger. Since the eldar do not use hangers the clones would not be able to take out there fighters so easily. And I see no reason to limit the eldar in what aircraft they can use.

This is a force substitution for the battle of genoish not an eldar v clones. The eldar take the place of the separatist and fight against the clone army we see it in the film episode 2. This is that army so weather they learn later is irrelevant weather they have go tern better by episode 3 is beside the point.

We have a totally green army which has never seen combat verses and bel tan sword wind army made up of aspect warriors(think people who spend there entire life training in one aspect of combat) and supporting artillery. The clones may change there tactics but they are totally in experience so they would come up with a similar tactic which is characteristic of an army who has never been in battle before.

Also because this is that clone army v the Eldar they can not swap in the different modules for there artillery before the battle starts.
What the elder have.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/rev8store.jpg
This is a titan (the smallest kind). The small model down the bottom is slightly taller than a human.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/fi ... pstore.jpg

This is elder anti air. This thing goes at over 120 km/h and due to hover jets over all most all terrain.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/scorpp5store.jpg

This thing careers the most devastating anti infantry gun (rules wise-I think) in the game. It will create a hole in space to the warp about the size of the tank destroy ring everything in side it. Same as the firestorm in speed.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/Ph ... lSTORE.jpg
This is the elder fighter.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/IAE007.jpg
This is the second eldar fighter.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/vh3.jpg
This is there heavy fighter.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/Phoenix1.jpg
This is there medium fighter.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/COBRA.jpg
This is there possibly the most powerful weapon in the game. This thing takes out titan shields and all. In also travels at the same rate as most eldar veicles.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/IAE001.jpg
This is the nightspiner. This would be devastating at genoish. It lunches millions of mono filament wire in to the air which drifts down on enemies shredding almost anything. This could also be fired from behind a hill meaning clone turbo laser artillery would not be able to shoot it. Same high speed.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/IAE003AB.jpg
This is the standard troop transport. Not only is it capable of insane speeds but also carries twine linked shurcan canons which could mow down clones with out trouble.

[Junghalli]

Not really.
Loose the concept of the aerodynamic wing (they still don't have this). See how easy you find air combat.

That still leaves them with helicopters, doesn't it?

[Xenophobe3691]

Not really.
Loose the concept of the aerodynamic wing (they still don't have this). See how easy you find air combat.

That still leaves them with helicopters, doesn't it?

Have you ever seen the cross-section of one of the rotors? It's an aerodynamic wing.

[Glimmervoid]

Not really.
Loose the concept of the aerodynamic wing (they still don't have this). See how easy you find air combat.

That still leaves them with helicopters, doesn't it?

Have you ever seen the cross-section of one of the rotors? It's an aerodynamic wing.

Any way it dose not matter if the imperam has lost the wing this is ELDAR v clones. And there fighters are aerodynamic.

[Nephtys]

SPVD, you don't understand. The reason I said the Cartoons were valid was that they seem to reinforce what we know. They take place in the timeframe after AOTC and clearly show that things have NOT improved in other situations, thus, the actions taken by the clones were standard operating procedure, NOT the cause of them 'being strapped for time' going after seperatist leadership.

Episode III however, does not count because as you said.. it shows that after so long with revisions in stuff such as equipment, they also developed new tactics. Which says what.. two years after AOTC, this is how they were. Unfortunately that means that the cartoons paint a clearer picture of the clones' failings at Genosis.

Plus. I said Aerospace fighters, not Starfighters. Any dedicated atmos fighter would murder a comparable transport/ground support craft. Though in the lack of such, every bloody tank they have could go to the air-air role with reasonable chances...

[white_rabbit]

This is elder anti air. This thing goes at over 120 km/h and due to hover jets over all most all terrain.

Very rarely used, the Firestorm is deployed when the Eldar cannot get sufficient air support into play, I would doubt that any Firestorms are in use.

However, the Fire Prism (heavy anti-tank platform) is capable of perfectly satisfactory AA fire.

This thing careers the most devastating anti infantry gun (rules wise-I think) in the game. It will create a hole in space to the warp about the size of the tank destroy ring everything in side it. Same as the firestorm in speed

This is actually the Scorpion Superheavy, equipped with two large laser weapons. the tank he describes is the Cobra.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/Ph ... lSTORE.jpg
This is the elder fighter.

This is actually an Eldar bomber, the Phoenix, it has a rapid fire Anti-tank/hi-ex missile launcher, two shuriken cannon, and a laser weapon, anti-personnel/light vehicle.
A more heavily equipped version has Nightspinner web arrays and a powerful ground targetting anti-tank laser.

It is capable of operating from orbit.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/IAE007.jpg
This is the second eldar fighter.

The Nightwing, a dedicated interceptor, similar loadout to the Imperiums T-bolt, heavy energy weapons, long ranged projectile cannon. standard Eldar stealth +shields.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/vh3.jpg
This is there heavy fighter.

This is actually described as an Eldar super heavy gunship. It has little or no role in aerial combat, as is deployed in squadrons with dedicated Interceptor support, to destroy specific targets of importance. i.e. Titans or hardpoints.

standard weaponry is two pulse lasers and a shuriken cannon. sometimes replaced by a third pulse laser or rapid fire missile launcher.

[Glimmervoid]

Sorry about the mistakes I was going on memory because I can’t find my copy of impearl armour (any of versions).

[SVPD]

SPVD, you don't understand. The reason I said the Cartoons were valid was that they seem to reinforce what we know. They take place in the timeframe after AOTC and clearly show that things have NOT improved in other situations, thus, the actions taken by the clones were standard operating procedure, NOT the cause of them 'being strapped for time' going after seperatist leadership.

Episode III however, does not count because as you said.. it shows that after so long with revisions in stuff such as equipment, they also developed new tactics. Which says what.. two years after AOTC, this is how they were. Unfortunately that means that the cartoons paint a clearer picture of the clones' failings at Genosis.

Plus. I said Aerospace fighters, not Starfighters. Any dedicated atmos fighter would murder a comparable transport/ground support craft. Though in the lack of such, every bloody tank they have could go to the air-air role with reasonable chances...

Then you obviously weren't paying attention. He said it's the battle of geonosis, so we have to go by that battle, when I brought up Ep. III. Then he turned around and wanted to bring up the cartoons. If you want to stick to the movie, stick to the movie.

[SVPD]

Where the hell is this stated ? besides, I doubt the Eldar would be fighting from dug in positions, ALL their heavy support is mobile to some degree. and their heaviest artillery is mounted on a 100kph+ tank.

I'm getting it from thirdfain constantly bringing up how the clones would do if they charged dug-in Eldar heavy weapons.

[Glimmervoid]

SPVD, you don't understand. The reason I said the Cartoons were valid was that they seem to reinforce what we know. They take place in the timeframe after AOTC and clearly show that things have NOT improved in other situations, thus, the actions taken by the clones were standard operating procedure, NOT the cause of them 'being strapped for time' going after seperatist leadership.

Episode III however, does not count because as you said.. it shows that after so long with revisions in stuff such as equipment, they also developed new tactics. Which says what.. two years after AOTC, this is how they were. Unfortunately that means that the cartoons paint a clearer picture of the clones' failings at Genosis.

Plus. I said Aerospace fighters, not Starfighters. Any dedicated atmos fighter would murder a comparable transport/ground support craft. Though in the lack of such, every bloody tank they have could go to the air-air role with reasonable chances...

Then you obviously weren't paying attention. He said it's the battle of geonosis, so we have to go by that battle, when I brought up Ep. III. Then he turned around and wanted to bring up the cartoons. If you want to stick to the movie, stick to the movie.

You can prove that the tactics that they used were normal by looking at the future; you can’t prove they were not since tactics can change.

[Nephtys]

SPVD, you don't understand. The reason I said the Cartoons were valid was that they seem to reinforce what we know. They take place in the timeframe after AOTC and clearly show that things have NOT improved in other situations, thus, the actions taken by the clones were standard operating procedure, NOT the cause of them 'being strapped for time' going after seperatist leadership.

Episode III however, does not count because as you said.. it shows that after so long with revisions in stuff such as equipment, they also developed new tactics. Which says what.. two years after AOTC, this is how they were. Unfortunately that means that the cartoons paint a clearer picture of the clones' failings at Genosis.

Plus. I said Aerospace fighters, not Starfighters. Any dedicated atmos fighter would murder a comparable transport/ground support craft. Though in the lack of such, every bloody tank they have could go to the air-air role with reasonable chances...

Then you obviously weren't paying attention. He said it's the battle of geonosis, so we have to go by that battle, when I brought up Ep. III. Then he turned around and wanted to bring up the cartoons. If you want to stick to the movie, stick to the movie.

You can prove that the tactics that they used were normal by looking at the future; you can’t prove they were not since tactics can change.

Precisely. That's what I'm saying. It's not about 'this is only fair! No looking elsewhere!'

You're looking to Episode III to show how better things are for the clones then.

We're looking to the cartoons to show exactly how bad things are for the clones at the time, and that it was not just a 'set of improbable factors' that made them use said tactics on Genosis.

[Junghalli]

Have you ever seen the cross-section of one of the rotors? It's an aerodynamic wing.

Does that mean nobody knew how to make a paper airplane either?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Not really.
Loose the concept of the aerodynamic wing (they still don't have this). See how easy you find air combat.

That still leaves them with helicopters, doesn't it?

Have you ever seen the cross-section of one of the rotors? It's an aerodynamic wing.

The four ornithopter gunships flying escort thundered overhead, tearing the air with the beating chop of their massive rotors...

They do have helicopters. They just call them "ornithopters" for some reason. I blame the lack of universal education standards.

Oh, and more canon wackiness:

Lord General Lugo's aircraft was a massive delta wing with a spherical glass cockpit at the prow...
Its shadow fell across the honour guard as it paused in mid air and the giant jet turbines slowly cranked around in their gimbal mounts from a horizontal position. With jets now facing downwards, the huge transport descended...

So... they do have delta winged craft, which implies that somebody in the Iom knows something about aerodynamics. However, we've only seen the wing on transports, so it's possible that this is from some messed up Adeptus Mechanicus doctrine thing related to Standard Template Constructs. The fact that this vehicle also had a friggin bubble in front and gimballed jet engines (hopefully not mounted at the end of the delta wings ), indicates that it is a patchwork creation of some kind, again indicating that the cogboys are involved.

I'm just trying to imagine a transport that is shaped like a cross between a Saab Viggen and an Osprey. I can't quite do it...

[NecronLord]

Does that mean nobody knew how to make a paper airplane either?

Paper is too precious to be given to kids or the irresponsible. It should be carefully hoarded, written on using user-stabbing pens, and preserved for centuries.

[DocHorror]

And anyone caught reading such papers will be either mind-wiped or executed as a heretic.

[Antares]

I voted for the Eldar, because the pro-Clones fraction isnt convincing me.

The tactics of the clone army is so utterly idiotic for me, that is see no reason why they would change their tactis just because they are fighting a different enemy.

Whats the point of wasting resources (=clones and equipment), with direct assault tactics like seen in Episode II, if you can protect and save said resources by taking cover and use other tactics?

Especially if it takes 10 years to train a clone this kind of recourse should be handled carefully. Much more carfully than e.g. a droid which are produces in raw numbers by assembly lines.

You only do this, if:
1)You dont care about wasting recources since you are superior anyway.
2)You are a bad guy
3)You dont know it better

1) is out, since one of the clones disadvantage is their long training time
2) is also out since the jedi are said to be the good guys

If they destroyed the hangars, then why didnt they use their air advantage and fight mainly from above? The sky should have been filled with hundreds of republican aircrafts including the acclamators (or some other long range artillery) firing salvos of missiles/turbolasers into battle.

If the army was pinned down, why didnt they just use some small yield explosives in the kt range to get rid of all the droids?

This fight was very nice to watch, but utterly crap in terms of logic.
As long as the target can be shot from the sky/orbit accuratly you will shot it from there especially if you have air superiority.

The Republic should have the technology like decent image recognition and just fire missiles into the battle until all 100% recognizable targets have been terminated, then perhaps go in with foot troops and clean up the mess.

[NecronLord]

And anyone caught reading such papers will be either mind-wiped or executed as a heretic.

Thankfully, Illiteracy is rampant.

[Glimmervoid]

And anyone caught reading such papers will be either mind-wiped or executed as a heretic.

Thankfully, Illiteracy is rampant.

And they will likely execute you as a heretic if you have not read them as well. Aya the joys of insanity.

[Darth Sephiroth]

I have a few things to point out.

First off, Jango Fett was a mercinary before he became a bounty hunter, he was the last survivor of a Mandalorian merc group that was decimated because it was betrayed (Comics, can't remember which ones). He did have military experience.

Secondly, at Geonosis, the Acclamators and most of the fighters were at first dealing with Kavic Toths Hex Weapons (Jedi Starfighter)

Thirdly, if you accept this as said, then the Eldar have NO AIR SUPPORT, the Seperatist craft had none because it could not be launched.

Fourth, the Acclamators were finishing off the ships that managed to get airborn and out of th atmosphere, the cannon craft (just blanked on the name of them, the ones used by the Clone Army to deal with the Core Ships) to destroy them when they could as well as provide support in dealing with the enemy aircraft.

Fifth, even if the ARC troopers were in cold sleep, whatever the hell that blaster was that the one used to singlehandedly shoot up an AAT was definately available.

[Imperial Overlord]

Jango Fett had experience with small scale conflicts, not huge combined arms battles on open plains. Storming forward and killing everything that moves might work for a small group of Mandalorian commandos taking a crime lord's palace by surprise, but it doesn't translate very well up to a huge engagement with armour and spacecraft.

[Darth Sephiroth]

Jango Fett had experience with small scale conflicts, not huge combined arms battles on open plains. Storming forward and killing everything that moves might work for a small group of Mandalorian commandos taking a crime lord's palace by surprise, but it doesn't translate very well up to a huge engagement with armour and spacecraft.

Actually, it doesn't say one way or the other, but in the comic it seemed to at least be a planetary war.

[Imperial Overlord]

He was part of a small unit IIRC. Dozens of people at the most, not a combined arms division.

[Connor MacLeod]

Jango Fett had experience with small scale conflicts, not huge combined arms battles on open plains. Storming forward and killing everything that moves might work for a small group of Mandalorian commandos taking a crime lord's palace by surprise, but it doesn't translate very well up to a huge engagement with armour and spacecraft.

Jango wasn't the only one training them though. HE hired a bunch of other people to serve as trainers as well (people he knew and picked.)

They had to have other trainers for the vehicles and whatnot at the very least.

[Imperial Overlord]

Jango Fett had experience with small scale conflicts, not huge combined arms battles on open plains. Storming forward and killing everything that moves might work for a small group of Mandalorian commandos taking a crime lord's palace by surprise, but it doesn't translate very well up to a huge engagement with armour and spacecraft.

Jango wasn't the only one training them though. HE hired a bunch of other people to serve as trainers as well (people he knew and picked.)

They had to have other trainers for the vehicles and whatnot at the very least.

But how much large scale combat training did they have? They may have been quite familiar with how to curb stomp a small pirate base with overwhelming force, but the clones tactics against the droid army could have clearly been better.