Doctor Who SE30E06: The Doctor's Daughter [Spoilers]

[Stark]

That's what makes this season suck so bad, frankly; there's good opportunities for awesome. They're just such terrible writers they give us dross instead.

[Straha]

That's what makes this season suck so bad, frankly; there's good opportunities for awesome. They're just such terrible writers they give us dross instead.

Fires of Pompeii wasn't that bad. It was actually surprisingly good in my opinion.

But, yeah, the rest of the season just sucks bloody balls. Sorta makes me wish that they had continued with the Scream of the Shalka Doctor instead of this... turgid shit.

[Yuri2356]

But, yeah, the rest of the season just sucks bloody balls. Sorta makes me wish that they had continued with the Scream of the Shalka Doctor instead of this... turgid shit.

Which makes me wonder what would happen if they put a solid budget behind a Doctor Who animated series. It would at very least rob them of their biggest excuse for all of these "Earth [Wales] in peril" and "Far off future that looks more or less like now" episodes.

[Stark]

Why would 'being in space' make it better? The writers can barely manage a contemporary story, why would they be more successful on Dagobah or whatever?

Aside from 'looking kewl' I don't see what it really adds to the show.

[Straha]

Why would 'being in space' make it better? The writers can barely manage a contemporary story, why would they be more successful on Dagobah or whatever?

Because the "reason" why the writers only use Earth and "not Earth but human and just like Earth" stories is because they don't have the money to make an alien planet.


If they left Earth they could, maybe, be somewhat more flexible and intelligent in their scripts. Hopefully.

[Yuri2356]

Why would 'being in space' make it better? The writers can barely manage a contemporary story, why would they be more successful on Dagobah or whatever?

Aside from 'looking kewl' I don't see what it really adds to the show.

Er... It would be slightly less monotonous?

While we're waiting for them to purge the writing staff and hire more people with tallent, we could at very least be looking at more interesting settings than "Contemporary Britain" and "Boiler Room".

[Stark]

Because the "reason" why the writers only use Earth and "not Earth but human and just like Earth" stories is because they don't have the money to make an alien planet.


If they left Earth they could, maybe, be somewhat more flexible and intelligent in their scripts. Hopefully.

After S4 I'm not sure I'd give them the credit. I'm all for space stuff, but people seem to think that it's some kind of balm that will make the show better (by 'better' I assume they mean 'more like every other scifi show'). I mean, before Pompeii (which I strongly disliked, but mainly in detail) I would have said the same thing about historicals; they don't do enough these days and they're different to 'some more of London'. The worst part about London, of course, is that Martha lives there.

Er... It would be slightly less monotonous?

While we're waiting for them to purge the writing staff and hire more people with tallent, we could at very least be looking at more interesting settings than "Contemporary Britain" and "Boiler Room".

I'm not confident it would make any difference, and I don't think what the show looks like is anywhere near as important as the terrible writing.

Actually, it's sad that the S1 CG was pretty bad, but it had the coolest shit; thousands of Daleks in space and shit like that. Now it's all 'pooey spaceship' and stuff, even though technically it's superior.

[Vaporous]

Ugh... Imagine this: The Doctor saves Jenny. Brings her on the TARDIS, they go off adventuring together. Unlike all his other past companions his relationship with Jenny is different. He not only loves her but starts teaching her. He finds his emotional release, a way to repair the horrific damage done to his psyche, by teaching her about Gallifrey, the TARDIS, Time and Space, the Sonic Screwdriver, etc. In short, teaching her to be a new Time Lady. Gallifrey and the Time Lords are gone due to his actions, but he can bring them back again. And then Rose comes back and the Doctor is given a choice, he can either save the woman he loves or the daughter and future of his race.



That'd be an interesting story. A compelling story. See the Doctor reborn, finally regenerating mentally as well as physically only to see him put through the wringer once more. Instead we get this bullcrap and the set up for a fourth spinoff series. (It is four, right? Not five I hope...)

As semi-cliche as that is, its still infinitely better than this crap. At the rate the Doctor fails to notice regenerating Time Lords, there should probably a few dozen of them running around.

[Flakin]

Dross. Unmitigated dross from start to finish. Every plot point from the generational 'zomg only seven days lol" war to the shooting / regeneration (or side effect of the terraforming cloud, whatever), was telegraphed in advance so heavily it actually made my head hurt.

And I also agree with the wrath of the time lord idiocy too. Kill his kid, get a speech. YAWN.

I am actually quite glad that the series is taking a semi break next year. At this rate I'm going to end up like Stark and hating everything.

... And here's another thing, The Doctor has always said that if there were any other Time Lords out there he "would know". Well, one got up five minutes after he left... why isn't the Tardis freaking out again? Why didn't he have a "Ohhhh another one!!!!" look on his face before running his emo-shoe clad feet to the star system Jenny is in?

Boring. Dross. Hated it.

[Ariphaos]

"What are you going to do, tell my dad?" was the only worthy moment of the ending.

They really could have explored and explained how they could degenerate so far in seven days a lot better...

[NecronLord]

Ugh... Imagine this: The Doctor saves Jenny. Brings her on the TARDIS, they go off adventuring together. Unlike all his other past companions his relationship with Jenny is different. He not only loves her but starts teaching her. He finds his emotional release, a way to repair the horrific damage done to his psyche, by teaching her about Gallifrey, the TARDIS, Time and Space, the Sonic Screwdriver, etc. In short, teaching her to be a new Time Lady. Gallifrey and the Time Lords are gone due to his actions, but he can bring them back again. And then Rose comes back and the Doctor is given a choice, he can either save the woman he loves or the daughter and future of his race.



That'd be an interesting story. A compelling story. See the Doctor reborn, finally regenerating mentally as well as physically only to see him put through the wringer once more. Instead we get this bullcrap and the set up for a fourth spinoff series. (It is four, right? Not five I hope...)

I expect they'll do that - as I said, I think the reason they left her behind because they had no idea what audience reaction to the concept would be.

[Stark]

Is there any reason to assume that it's premeditated as opposed to just bad writing? I don't follow interviews/etc.

[NecronLord]

Is there any reason to assume that it's premeditated as opposed to just bad writing? I don't follow interviews/etc.

The commentry seemed to imply that they were at least thinking about it. But I may be misremembering that.

In any case, it's nowhere near as bad as I was fearing; I was expecting her to be the progeny of Rose Tyler. That she wasn't is a good thing.

[Stark]

Whoa.

That would have been so much worse.

Stay away from the BBC NL, I don't want to see you sending them any suggestion emails...

[NecronLord]

Puhlease! I wouldn't suggest that to anyone. Unless I could garuntee that only my enemies would be made to watch it.

Why, my suggestion e-mails would be great.

Somewhere on my list would be 'let's have some lasers' I'm sick of G36s in the future, damnit.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Meh, I find it all inoffensively tame, to be perfectly honest. DW sometimes has some great dramatic moments, but I'm failing to see any great decline. To me those great moments have always been sporadic. It's almost guaranteed to come in fits again, if only for Moffat's two-parter.

I'm not going to judge something on what it might have been.

[Straha]

As semi-cliche as that is, its still infinitely better than this crap. At the rate the Doctor fails to notice regenerating Time Lords, there should probably a few dozen of them running around.

It could be done in a non-cliche way. Imagine if in teaching Jenny to become a Time Lord she actually starts to act like a Time Lord from the old series, that is a pompous self-important prick who thinks the universe is their plaything and everyone else can go to hell. We get hints of her starting to act like that in a few episodes, then she starts to act more and more self-important and then she starts treating the universe as her plaything. The culmination being that she builds a machine which rips Rose from her dimension to ours. The Doctor then has a Daughter going mad, the woman he loves back (and a catfight in the making between Martha and Donna on one side and Rose on the other) and realizes that, maybe, the civilization he's trying to restore and has so many nostalgic moments for wasn't that grand.

I expect they'll do that - as I said, I think the reason they left her behind because they had no idea what audience reaction to the concept would be.

BUT WHY?! Haven't people learned anything from the slew of Franchises in the past? (I.E. Law and Order, Star Trek, Gundam, CSI, etc. etc.) Having multiple spin-offs at once is a bad idea. Especially so when all the commentary I hear about Torchwood is that it's barely passing at best, worse than mediocre on average and utterly unrefined dreck the rest of the time.

[Straha]

And hell, K9 had a fan following. People liked Captain Jack. Sarah Jane Smith was a popular companion for years and harkens back to ye olden days when Doctor Who was good. And it's a kids show. But a spin-off show with this character who has no fan following, the worst back-story imaginable ("She's a clone from the planet of the IDIOTS who were seven days old!") and nothing to make her interesting or special... What the fuck could they have possibly been thinking?

[Admiral Valdemar]

I want Straha's concept to come to fruition so badly. I can deal with G36s in the future, though. Lasers are a brain bug in sci-fi, and if done in the pew-pew way, they look lame (B7 got it right). They could try making them futuristic slug throwers without looking lame. That means no shitty P90s-cum-blowtorchs.

[Zac Naloen]

BUT WHY?! Haven't people learned anything from the slew of Franchises in the past? (I.E. Law and Order, Star Trek, Gundam, CSI, etc. etc.) Having multiple spin-offs at once is a bad idea. Especially so when all the commentary I hear about Torchwood is that it's barely passing at best, worse than mediocre on average and utterly unrefined dreck the rest of the time.

It doesn't need to be a spin off.

The doctor will probably need a new companion next year. If it's David Tennant at all.

Have we heard anything about the a 5th series yet?

[Admiral Valdemar]

There won't be a next year. Hiatus, remember? If Tennant is staying on, then he's going to lay low for a while until the next season.

[NecronLord]

BUT WHY?! Haven't people learned anything from the slew of Franchises in the past? (I.E. Law and Order, Star Trek, Gundam, CSI, etc. etc.) Having multiple spin-offs at once is a bad idea. Especially so when all the commentary I hear about Torchwood is that it's barely passing at best, worse than mediocre on average and utterly unrefined dreck the rest of the time.

I am talking about the concept you're advocating. The concept I suggested in post #11 of this thread, that of the 'daughter' (played by whoever) as a companion.

Incidentally, it'd be four spin off series in total, if we count K9 and friends. But no one should ever count that.

Also, you're unfair to the Old Time Lords. The society as a whole was rather benevolent, within the limits of its non-intervention {and there's occasional breaches in that for the general good, but they're reluctant to become an Empire}, in its first appearance, it repatriated thousands of humans to their own times after they were abducted by aliens, in its last non-flashback appearance, Time Lord society set out to destroy the wicked and reward the virtuous, and they were fairly consistantly benevolent between that.

They were just collectively as incompetant as Wile E Coyote and Yosemite Sam put together. (Itself a good reason for giving them some leniency on their Prime Directive - they at least managed to twig that they weren't wholly up to interventionism after one catastrophic disaster) They still shouldn't be judged by assholes like the Master (whom they tried to destroy on several occasions, and who would, but for them, have flat out killed dead the Doctor in his first appearance, and may have eventually caused the state excecution on Skaro of...) the Rani (who, okay, is a bitch, and their fault, but her attitudes hardly represent them, and there's nothing suggesting they knew how evil she was before they exiled her - eventually, she'd likely be excecuted by the Time Lords if they found out what she'd done after graduating up from testing on mice) the War Chief (Whose works they pretty much undid utterly) and a few other bastards - that'd be like judging all Russians based on the infamous exploits of Ivan the Terrible, Lenin and Stalin.

Not that the Doctor's Daughter couldn't turn out fucked up anyway, but the Time Lords aren't normally that irresponsible or evil - by the standards of most elder races, they're pretty benign.

[Straha]

BUT WHY?! Haven't people learned anything from the slew of Franchises in the past? (I.E. Law and Order, Star Trek, Gundam, CSI, etc. etc.) Having multiple spin-offs at once is a bad idea. Especially so when all the commentary I hear about Torchwood is that it's barely passing at best, worse than mediocre on average and utterly unrefined dreck the rest of the time.

I am talking about the concept you're advocating. The concept I suggested in post #11 of this thread, that of the 'daughter' (played by whoever) as a companion.

Ah, I retract my irate anger at the writers and replace it with irateness at how they sought to implement these ideas.

Incidentally, it'd be four spin off series in total, if we count K9 and friends. But no one should ever count that.

That's what I thought, and I was counting K9 and Friends, but I wasn't absolutely sure I wasn't missing a program.

Also, you're wrong about the Old Time Lords. The society as a whole was rather benevolent, within the limits of its non-intervention {and there's occasional breaches in that for the general good, but they're reluctant to become an Empire}, in its first appearance, it repatriated thousands of humans to their own times after they were abducted by aliens, in its last non-flashback appearance, Time Lord society set out to destroy the wicked and reward the virtuous, and they were fairly consistantly benevolent between that.

I'd disagree. My impression from the Time Lords appearances was that they were all a haughty bunch who viewed themselves as well above anyone else out there and even the concept of having an empire. I always understood War Games to be them setting right what went wrong in what was their realm. Watching Deadly Assassin, Invasion of Time, Five Doctors (where they were revealed to have ripped people out of their own timelines to fight for the Time Lords' amusement), etc. showed them to be stuck up asses of quite some degree and Trial of the Time Lord (the Ultimate Foe?) showed them to be completely set on defending their own position in the universe no matter what the cost. That's just off the top of my head.

[NecronLord]

Stuck up asses doesn't mean they're evil, it means they're annoying. When have the Time Lords ever enslaved a race? When have they ever destroyed a planet or race (Renegades aside) without exceptional and just reason? When we do hear of them acting, it's against clear threats to entire regions of space or the entire universe. As a society they've destroyed many races, the Fendhal, the Vampires, the Racnoss (this may be pre-Time Lord Gallifreyans, mind), the Daleks (well, they tried their best), each of which seemed to be immensely destructive. They've intervened to save the universe from potentential destruction (Two Doctors, though the Sontarans inadvertantly(?) stopped that) on occasion.

They look down on outsiders - so what? Given their ancient power, is this not to be expected? Indeed, on several occasions, we've seen them treat the Doctor's companions with considerable compassion (even marrying Leela in one instance, whom most of us would consider a savage - clearly their cultural superiority complex isn't universal or very extreme). The only real exception to such conduct is the Council at the time of The Trial of a Time Lord who were deposed as soon as their wrongdoings were exposed.

Sure, they don't share their technology, nor stop (mundane) wars, but after the Minyos incident, they've clearly recognised their limitations in this department, and confine themselves to exterminating the really nasty races (They were having a go at the Cybermen, for example, in the radio play Human Resources (BBC7 / Big Finish)) who are completely without saving. I'd argue that recognising they're not up to mentoring other civilisations reliably is a good reason not to do it, as a rule. They're not perfect, but they're not actually evil.

And in case you missed it, the Time Scoop was banned and the Death Zone forbidden forever by Rassilon, the first Time Lord.

[NecronLord]

To simplify: While individual (usually Renegade) Time Lords have been callous and cruel to lesser races (the Rani being the archetypical example), there's nothing to suggest it's a dominant trait of the culture, and certainly not that anyone raised (?) as a Time Lord by the Doctor would somehow pick it up. Most of them have the attitude of a lot of Westerners regarding wars in Africa, for instance "it's tragic, but we can't be expected to sort out all the world's problems" - and in the Time Lord's case, they actually tried it at first, but it turned into a disaster.