Imperial InfantryMan's uplifting Primer analysis thread

[NecronLord]

But... How is that possible? They've got pulse rifles that make lasguns look like toys on the open field, carbines that are the same in close quarters, better armour, more reliable transport... How could they lose even a short-ranged firefight?

Tau superiority isn't as overwhelming as it is on the tabletop. A deathwatch captain can gun down a crisis battlesuit quite easily (I'll quote it when I get home if you like), for example. Technologically, they're infants compared to the eldar (who, from a non-TT perspective, do everything the Tau do, except delude their population, better), whose major limitations appear to be what they're culturally willing to do, and stone age compared to the necrons. The Guard manage to fight both of them, remember.

Ok, if the Guard get the superheavies and massed artillery into play, I suppose that would do the trick. But rogue traders?

Rogue Traders have lead crusades and commanded delegations from allied Space Marine chapters. Remember, these guys aren't Nick Leeson. While some of them fall on hard times, others are practically nations in themselves.

I'm pretty sure the 'Speaker for the Chartist Captains' (A rotating seat on the high lords) represents them. That's how powerful they can get.

[Lazarus]

Tau superiority isn't as overwhelming as it is on the tabletop. A deathwatch captain can gun down a crisis battlesuit quite easily (I'll quote it when I get home if you like), for example.

A Deathwatch Captain is, by all accounts, an incredibly powerful warrior and a hero of the Imperium. That one could take a standard line-issue piece of Tau equipment isn't surprising. Could a squad of Guard infantry do the same?

[Teleros]

I expect so, given a squad of Guardsmen can include heavy and light anti-tank weaponry . Eat plasma, xenos scum .

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm looking at the Inquisitor core rules now they have "one" shot on standard setting, , and 2 shots on sustained. Delay isn't mentioned, but that's generally partt of the "early edition" stuff anyhow (IE wargear, etc.)

Recharge time isn't mentioned because its in the weapon stat block. That's what the line under the number of shots means.

Inquisitor combines the refire delay from earlier editions with the overheat chances and limited ammo supply from later editions reinforcing the canonicity of all of those aspects of plasma weapons.

[Lost Soal]

The overloading chance didn't quite pop in until Inquisitor and/or 3rd edition rules, though. Even Necromunda (and the Wargear stuff) didn't have the "explode" bit.. only the slow refire rate (depending on setting.)

the literature (novels) aren't precise. Generally they tend to be much more rleiable than the game data implies.

I will admit the "variable output" has been long apart of the canon, though

I believe one of the later Ghosts novels has Hark note that his plasma pistol hadn't recharged yet after firing it, while in Brotherhood of the Snakes, a marine Plasma Gun goes into meltdown during a withdrawal from orks, so he drops it, pulls back with the rest them shoots it causing it to detonate.

[andrewgpaul]

Firstly, Connor, the Munitorum Manual is already out; picked it up in GW Glasgow (along with Manslayer, the new Gotrek & Felix novel, and the latest Heresy novel, Descent of Angels.

Secondly, I can see your point about the change in plasma gun rules reflecting changes in weapon design, but I'm not sure about that. After all, the 2nd edition 40K box set centred on the 2nd war for Armageddon( M40491)*, while the 4th ed one centres on Hive Fleet Behemoth's assault on Macragge (M40745)*, substantially before Armageddon.

*taken from this timeline.

[NecronLord]

A Deathwatch Captain is, by all accounts, an incredibly powerful warrior and a hero of the Imperium.

Who's still killing it with a bolter. Maybe a bolter with special AP ammo. Two three round bursts set off a chain reaction that destroys it, two other crisis suits turn on him, and manage to force him to one knee, and destroy a shoulder pad.

Regardless; the Imperium can make and equip power armour that preforms better in a smaller space. And it has a metric fuckton of bolters floating around...

That one could take a standard line-issue piece of Tau equipment isn't surprising. Could a squad of Guard infantry do the same?

Given that lots of said squads have things like autocannons, heavy bolters, meltaguns, and such, easily, if they could hit it. Which seems likely, given that it was perching out in the open to shoot at them.

After all, the 2nd edition 40K box set centred on the 2nd war for Armageddon( M40491)*, while the 4th ed one centres on Hive Fleet Behemoth's assault on Macragge (M40745)*, substantially before Armageddon.

*taken from this timeline.

Assuming you mean that Armegeddon 2 was in 491.M41... that seems unlikely. Yarrick would now be over five hundred years old. Which, while possible, seems unlikely.

[andrewgpaul]

What I actually meant was 941M41, which makes Yarrick less unfeasibly old, and also places it after the first Tyrannic War

[fgalkin]

Plus, it has a most unfortunate contradiction with Rennie's novels. The cruiser, in which, was named the Lord Solar Macharius. According to this timeline, he's not even born yet. Either someone in the Imperium is prescient, or the people who made that timeline are talking out of their ass.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lost Soal]

Plus, it has a most unfortunate contradiction with Rennie's novels. The cruiser, in which, was named the Lord Solar Macharius. According to this timeline, he's not even born yet. Either someone in the Imperium is prescient, or the people who made that timeline are talking out of their ass.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

It contradicts itself, never mind Rennies novels.

29,125? LUNAR WOLVES renamed Sons of Horus.

29,812 (may be as early as 28,000) GREAT CRUSADES. Primarchs rediscovered and united with their Marine Chapters. Human galaxy reclaimed under PAX IMPERIALIS.

The Lunar Wolves were renamed in honour of their Primarch before he was even discovered.

And now my favourite.

34,342 Inquisitor Eisenhorn declares Inquisitor Quixos a heretic and Extremis Diabolus. Eisenhorn leads a cell that hunts down and kills Quixos 3 years later. (Quixos approx. 300 years old at this point).
40,342 Inquisitor Quixos declared Heretic and Extremis Diabolus by Inquisitor Eisenhorn.

Eisenhorn declairs Quixos a heretic 600 yrs, before doing it again, even though he's already killed him.

[NecronLord]

The Timeline According to Mad Madnnus, Acolyte of Tzeentch!

[Ryan Thunder]

But... How is that possible? They've got pulse rifles that make lasguns look like toys on the open field, carbines that are the same in close quarters, better armour, more reliable transport... How could they lose even a short-ranged firefight?

Tau superiority isn't as overwhelming as it is on the tabletop. A deathwatch captain can gun down a crisis battlesuit quite easily (I'll quote it when I get home if you like), for example.

I hate that bit of fluff. IIRC, it was actually two Crisis suits he gunned down. Even though nearly everything else I can find would seem to indicate that they're better armed and armoured than he is...

But I digress; you have a good point.

[Connor MacLeod]

Firstly, Connor, the Munitorum Manual is already out; picked it up in GW Glasgow (along with Manslayer, the new Gotrek & Felix novel, and the latest Heresy novel, Descent of Angels.

Not in the US anywhere I could get at it, anyyhow. Amazon and B&N both lists it as coming out in November. Even checking the main BL site its still on preorder.

If I do buy it I'll probably have to buy it from BL (and I'm betting I'd pay tax on it.) I might still do it anyhow.

Secondly, I can see your point about the change in plasma gun rules reflecting changes in weapon design, but I'm not sure about that. After all, the 2nd edition 40K box set centred on the 2nd war for Armageddon( M40491)*, while the 4th ed one centres on Hive Fleet Behemoth's assault on Macragge (M40745)*, substantially before Armageddon.

*taken from this timeline.

I dont know if this is directed at WR or myself, but I'm not arguing so much from the point of game mechanics as from a the standpoint of "Suspension of Disbelief" - In this case the changing "rules" or ideas about plasma weapons is not a problem. Given that plasma weapons can vary in terms of performance, you can reasonably expect quite a bit of variation in other features like reliability/safety, refire rate, or ammo capacity. Hell you can probably even add in a measure of "tech progression/refinement" in some cases as well.

[Connor MacLeod]

Inquisitor combines the refire delay from earlier editions with the overheat chances and limited ammo supply from later editions reinforcing the canonicity of all of those aspects of plasma weapons.

That wouldn't alter my point much. Again, given varying performance in such weapons (they aren't lasguns, but they seem to vary in their performance and capabilities) you probably can have plasma weapons that still have all those. (Mad Donna's plasma pistol also ran the risk of "overloads" despite having a low rate of fire and small ammo capacity.)

I'd figure the "Inquisitor" plasma weapons are probably exceptionally powerful ones.

[Imperial Overlord]

That wouldn't alter my point much. Again, given varying performance in such weapons (they aren't lasguns, but they seem to vary in their performance and capabilities) you probably can have plasma weapons that still have all those. (Mad Donna's plasma pistol also ran the risk of "overloads" despite having a low rate of fire and small ammo capacity.)

I'm not arguing against your points, I'm saying Inquisitor supports plasma weapons having all of those attributes to varying degrees.

I'd figure the "Inquisitor" plasma weapons are probably exceptionally powerful ones.

Not likely. The weapons presented in Inquisitor tend to be "average" examples of the breed.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not likely. The weapons presented in Inquisitor tend to be "average" examples of the breed.

In terms of the game stats?

[Imperial Overlord]

Not likely. The weapons presented in Inquisitor tend to be "average" examples of the breed.

In terms of the game stats?

There's a wide variety of weapons and gear. They stat improvised weapons, three different common pattern lasguns, a variety of different projectile weapons ranging from crude to advanced, as well as rarer and exotic weapons. Weapons of exceptional capabilities such as frost blades or rune staves are given different stats than power swords or force staves. Cybernetics are stated differently based on quality levels. The plasma weapons being extraordinary models would be inconsistent with the rest of their methodology.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's a wide variety of weapons and gear. They stat improvised weapons, three different common pattern lasguns, a variety of different projectile weapons ranging from crude to advanced, as well as rarer and exotic weapons. Weapons of exceptional capabilities such as frost blades or rune staves are given different stats than power swords or force staves. Cybernetics are stated differently based on quality levels. The plasma weapons being extraordinary models would be inconsistent with the rest of their methodology.

Maybe I shoudl clarify. Exceptional in terms of power output: Ie plasma weapons releasing massively destrructive blasts, which would, in turn, explain the "long refire" rates, the danger of exploding, AND the low ammo capacity. Given that Inquisitors are meant to tangle with obscenely powerful opponents, it would make sense they can access insane weapons as well as more mundane ones.

[Imperial Overlord]

Maybe I shoudl clarify. Exceptional in terms of power output: Ie plasma weapons releasing massively destrructive blasts, which would, in turn, explain the "long refire" rates, the danger of exploding, AND the low ammo capacity. Given that Inquisitors are meant to tangle with obscenely powerful opponents, it would make sense they can access insane weapons as well as more mundane ones.

Not really. Weapons in the game run the full gamut from crappy black powder weapons to Necrontyr Gauss Flayers. The sample characters aren't tremendously well equipped or armoured. The plasma weapons in there do a lot of damage, but less than melta weapons and aren't that much more destructive than bolters.

The danger of exploding is there, but its pretty tiny. The long recharge rats between bursts or high powered shots and the limited ammo capacity is consistent with other fluff. I can't see any reason to think the weapons are anything other than standard plasma weapons. That 40K and Inquisitor game stats don't precisely match the fluff performance of the weapons doesn't really mean anything. We know the stats reflect game balance and playability as much as the in universe performance of the gear.

[Ford Prefect]

The equipment isn't just for Inquisitors, though. The equipment is supposed to be typical of what is available, as opposed to exceptional examples of one weapon (in fact, the plasma weapons might be generally inferior, given they can get so hot you can't even touch one for upwards of half an hour ...)

[Ford Prefect]

the limited ammo capacity is consistent with other fluff.

Doesn't the recent book on weapons and wargear describe the 'plasma containment flasks' of plasma pistols having even photohydrogen for five shots, while plasma gun sized flasks have enough fuel for ten?

[Peptuck]

Wouldn't it be more of a case that IG officers are not direct superiors to commissars and so cannot issue orders to commissars? It's a small difference, but under normal circumstances the officer is the leader of his unit and what he says goes. And while a commissar is not required to follow orders given by the officer, he also cannot countermand those orders unless there is sufficient reason to do so. I would say a commissar would observe that given orders are followed.
I've always thought commissars are bit like outside observers and are only allowed to intervene if an officer / squad leader etc. dies or fucks up badly enough.

-Gunhead

Judging by Cain's various actions, a Commissar has very broad powers to requisition or take command. In For the Emperor/i] he bluntly states that it is well within his rights and powers as a commissar to execute the entire senior command staff of a IG regiment and bring in new ones, and in The Traitor's Hand he asserts direct authority over the local planetary traffic control network.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not really. Weapons in the game run the full gamut from crappy black powder weapons to Necrontyr Gauss Flayers. The sample characters aren't tremendously well equipped or armoured. The plasma weapons in there do a lot of damage, but less than melta weapons and aren't that much more destructive than bolters.

The stats aren't always representative of all the variations or possibilities either. I mean for one thing look at how they treat the damage of las-wepaons (laspistols and lasguns do the same damage.) or the fire selection/charge settings (special features rahter than standard ones.)

The danger of exploding is there, but its pretty tiny. The long recharge rats between bursts or high powered shots and the limited ammo capacity is consistent with other fluff. I can't see any reason to think the weapons are anything other than standard plasma weapons.

And "standard" plasma weapons can't vary in power or performance? I doubt all plasma weapons are made the same - the game probably just treats them all identically for simplicity's sake.

That 40K and Inquisitor game stats don't precisely match the fluff performance of the weapons doesn't really mean anything. We know the stats reflect game balance and playability as much as the in universe performance of the gear.

Yes, but the features (except ammo capacity) aren't really "game stats". The ammo counters are generally the onyl "game stats" I tend to look at reliably as it is.

That said I don't suppose its neccesarily for them to be "extremely powerful" - just "more powerful" by an unknown degree. The other features like "instability, ammo capacity and refire rate" arne't precisely quantified, after all.

The real point is that the features are all trade offs. You can have a plasma weapon that is powerful with a fairly high rate of fire (for short periods at least) but sacrifices reliability and/or safety (IE the "gets hot" bit from 3rd edition.) You can have a slow-firing, powerful, but reliable plasma weapon (the early editions, such as 1st/2nd edition, or in Necromunda). The Inquisitor plasma weapons would presumably fall somewhere between those extremes (it could be more reliable than the "gets hot" plasma weapons in 3rd edition onewards, but slower to fire.)

And I should point out its no tjust the "game fluff" either - alot of the novels tend to take a "differing opinion" approach to plasma weapons too (some are slow firing, some seem to have no "recharge rate" at all or the "rel;iability" issues.) That "balancing/retconning" act has been done with other weapons (like meltaguns, ,lasweapons, etc.)

[Teleros]

Judging by Cain's various actions, a Commissar has very broad powers to requisition or take command.

In one of the books he mentions Jurgen being able, via Cain's authority, to requisition anything short of a battleship without much fuss (although there's probably some exaggeration here).
And when forming the 597th Valhallan, he points out that there are commissar's who'd go so far as to decimate the regiment (that, is, the Roman-style 1-in-10 executed decimation).

[Imperial Overlord]

I still see no reason to believe that the plasma weapons in Inquisitor are abnormally powerful.

To be clear I agree that their are going to be variations on plasma weapon performance and weakness based on constructions. Variations on fluff performance are to be expected as the weapon's table top performance frequently changes from edition to edition. The Inquisition version merelly rationalizes the changes by incorporating all the features in one weapon.

Nor do I contest that Inquisitor's combat stats aren't great. For a real laugh, go look up how the Necrontyr Gauss Flayer is beaten with a nerf bat. I just see no reason to think that plasma weapons are supposed to anything other than generic examples of their type and that they have just been a little neutered in the name of game balance.