[40k] Relative Strengths

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Falkenhayn
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Post by Falkenhayn »

I think it was an upgrade, a Strength 1 or 3 lance battery, resulting from a Weirdboy tower being added to your ship.

So its probably not a single ork, but a bunch of Weirdboyz chained together. That appears to how they operate, the short story Liberation day features a load of Weirdboyz chained together being used as a Navigation system by an Orkish spacehulk.
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What's Ork Gellar Field tech like?
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Orks Mekboyz have a natural talent for force fields and teleporters (remember than their tractor beams are force field based) so they have Gellar field tech. Of course, being a race of "safe" psykers, they have a lot less to fear from the warp than most other species.
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Post by Falkenhayn »

Imperial Overlord wrote:Of course, being a race of "safe" psykers, they have a lot less to fear from the warp than most other species.
Nothing broadcasts to Gork and Mork like a chained up bunch of Weirdboyz. I wouldn't be suprised if the Gellar Field in some instances is partially, or primarily, their influence. That is, G&M following the Ladz with the Warp equivalent of half a brick in a sock.
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Post by Lost Soal »

Falkenhayn wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:Of course, being a race of "safe" psykers, they have a lot less to fear from the warp than most other species.
Nothing broadcasts to Gork and Mork like a chained up bunch of Weirdboyz. I wouldn't be suprised if the Gellar Field in some instances is partially, or primarily, their influence. That is, G&M following the Ladz with the Warp equivalent of half a brick in a sock.
Doesn't matter if their a "safe" psyker race, if they lose their Gellar field, they get eaten. Also, according to the 2nd edition codex, their knowledge of force fields surpasses that of even the Eldar, so they probably do have actual Gellar fields.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Lost Soal wrote:
Doesn't matter if their a "safe" psyker race, if they lose their Gellar field, they get eaten. Also, according to the 2nd edition codex, their knowledge of force fields surpasses that of even the Eldar, so they probably do have actual Gellar fields.
It means they're less vulnerable and less likely to get munched if they have a short term localized failure (we are talking Ork tech).
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Post by Cykeisme »

Lost Soal wrote:Doesn't matter if their a "safe" psyker race, if they lose their Gellar field, they get eaten.
As I understand, if the warp demons want to destroy and eat them, they could.. but only warp-using races are tasty food.

From what I've read, the Eldar are particularly delectable, as are humans (to a lesser extent), whereas races like the Orks create and draw on their own psychic field, so they don't attract warp demons.

Any verification on this?
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Cykeisme wrote:
Lost Soal wrote:Doesn't matter if their a "safe" psyker race, if they lose their Gellar field, they get eaten.
As I understand, if the warp demons want to destroy and eat them, they could.. but only warp-using races are tasty food.

From what I've read, the Eldar are particularly delectable, as are humans (to a lesser extent), whereas races like the Orks create and draw on their own psychic field, so they don't attract warp demons.

Any verification on this?
"Safe" psykers are less vulnerable to things like possession and are better able to defend themselves. Orks can be possessed and other horrible things, but its hard while vulnerable psykers are easy. Eldar souls are sort of "in tune" with Slaanesh, so much so that if they die without a soul stone that Slaanesh gets their soul. Being strong psykers, they have strong warp souls and thus are both vulnerable and delicious.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Imperial Overlord wrote:Orks can be possessed and other horrible things, but its hard while vulnerable psykers are easy.
Damn, now there's a nasty thought.
Are there Chaos-worshipping Orks?!
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

You could have (very rare) Ork chaos worshippers in the older fluff, but that might have been retconned away. Orks are quite possession resistant and even if possessed, hard to control.
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Post by Shadowtraveler »

Cykeisme wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:Orks can be possessed and other horrible things, but its hard while vulnerable psykers are easy.
Damn, now there's a nasty thought.
Are there Chaos-worshipping Orks?!
It's possible to have Chaos Orks, though it's considered extremely un-Orky and they're likely to be killed by their comrades in short order.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Cykeisme wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:Orks can be possessed and other horrible things, but its hard while vulnerable psykers are easy.
Damn, now there's a nasty thought.
Are there Chaos-worshipping Orks?!
One recent example had a bunch of Orks mistaking a Nurgle idol as a statue of Gork or Mork, as I recall it was a plot hook for the Daemon Hunters codex, but it also got some artwork and a white dwarf feature IIRC.

Occasional mention of Daemon possessed orks etc throughout the fiction, but as with Genestealer infestation, the "tainted" orks are shunned/considered Unorky.

Unorky things get a taste of the old boot leather according to Orkish philosophy.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Back to the original topic regarding relative strengths.. in the tabletop game, what sort of numerical differences are we looking at between an average Space Marine and an average Ork army? Are we looking at ratios greater than 1:2 here?
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Cykeisme wrote:Back to the original topic regarding relative strengths.. in the tabletop game, what sort of numerical differences are we looking at between an average Space Marine and an average Ork army? Are we looking at ratios greater than 1:2 here?
A Space Marine is a demigod with the best gear the human race can supply. They slaughter Orks, and almost anything else, in ungodly numbers. The ratio would be far greater than 1:2 for an even fight, depending on the variables involved.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Cykeisme wrote:Back to the original topic regarding relative strengths.. in the tabletop game, what sort of numerical differences are we looking at between an average Space Marine and an average Ork army? Are we looking at ratios greater than 1:2 here?
Dozens of marines can leave 3 acres of land covered in Ork corpses 3-7 deep.

On average, easily more than 1:2 ratio, but obviously this number is dependant of the situation, Marines can get ambushed etc.
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Post by NecronLord »

Lost Soal wrote:Doesn't matter if their a "safe" psyker race, if they lose their Gellar field, they get eaten.
Bear in mind, there are examples of hulks surviving in the warp without being eaten. It's certainly true that, as a rule, if your Gellar Fields aren't working, you're fucked, but space hulks, with various horrors that aren't all chaotic, have survived it many times.
White Rabbit wrote:Dozens of marines can leave 3 acres of land covered in Ork corpses 3-7 deep.
I've been meaning to ask. How did the Marines do that? Can we have actual quotes to ensure this isn't hyperbole? Was this meant to be a Thermopylae-esque stand against the Krork, where they couldn't bring their weapons to bear, and basically had to sit there and get sythed down by a lascannon, or was it something less believable?
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Post by white_rabbit »

I've been meaning to ask. How did the Marines do that? Can we have actual quotes to ensure this isn't hyperbole? Was this meant to be a Thermopylae-esque stand against the Krork, where they couldn't bring their weapons to bear, and basically had to sit there and get sythed down by a lascannon, or was it something less believable?
I'm 90% certain Dan Abnett had been watching 300, because its basically a line of marines with lances and boltguns, with chapter serfs handing them reloads, mulching a load of Orks, and reflects the slightly ludicrous kill count and feats of the film, even for Space Marines.

Spoilers for Brothers of the Snake obviously.

Pg 243
" apart from those men who bore specialised weapons, every warrior carried a bolter and a combat shield, as well as a sheathed warblade. The teams of armourers and attendants, all in loose light armour, waited behind the line with munition reloads and bundles of sea lances sharpened for war"



" Five proud double-snakes glittered in the sunlight "

Thats five squads of Iron snakes, with Librarian Petrok in command, plus the serfs.

pg 245
"In their beringed fists, cleavers and axes, pikes and halberds, mauls and bitten blades..crude bolters and broad nosed cannon"

Attacking orks equipment

The Iron Snakes wait until the orks reach ten meters away, then let rip with bolters, plasma guns and flamers.

The Iron snakes butcher the Orks at point blank with gunfire until they are climbing/hacking their way through piles of blasted orkish bodies, reloading several times until "centimeter by centimeter" the orks get too close, then the Iron snakes pull out some spears and other close combat weapons and pretend that they are Spear infantry, while the serfs reload bolters.

Interestingly, theres a few sentances describing the marines fighting, targetting orks with guns first over orks with axes right in front of them etc.

" visor displays selected and prioritised targets, flickering and switching."

As the Orks falter,the Iron snakes grab their bolters and chew em up again for a bit, then spend the next half an hour basically chewing up the Orks, mainly in close quarters.

" Behind them, for a distance of about three acres, the earth was piled size or seven deep with the enemy dead, stinking slopes and mounts of carrion, gurlging as waste and fluid leaked out and turned the ground beneath into a quagmire."

"...not a single man in the five squads had fallen"


The reason for this tactic, which deviates slightly from the Iron Snakes previous engagements appears to be that there a fucking loads of orks, enough to have surrounded and almost overwhelmed 250 marines led by the Chapter master.

And these orks are fucking huge, one is described as "three times the mass of a space marine" and its just one of the the Ladz.

The "Swineguard" bodyguard were the size of Warbosses and had heavy bolters in one hand, chainblades in the others, although I suppose it isn't really surprising as apparently there are millions invading the planet, they lose "tens of thousands" to the 300 space marines in the final fighting retreat.

The marines loose 60 marines out of the 300 deploy on the planet, and pretty much get their arses kicked off by the Orks.

So assuming 20k Orks died in the entire planetary assault, thats one dead marine for every 330 odd dead orks.

But the Orks win, because they've got millions.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Two things:

1) Holy shit, Space Marines!

2) Was this book written before or after the 300 movie was released?
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

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Post by Azazal »

Cykeisme wrote:Two things:

1) Holy shit, Space Marines!

2) Was this book written before or after the 300 movie was released?
Brother Hood of the Snake is a relativly recent release, but the 300 somic has been out for a few years
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Post by Lancer »

Azazal wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Two things:

1) Holy shit, Space Marines!

2) Was this book written before or after the 300 movie was released?
Brother Hood of the Snake is a relativly recent release, but the 300 somic has been out for a few years
It's actually just Brothers of the Snake
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

I was pretty sure that the Soul Drinkers were doing much the same thing in Chapter War. I also think the Black Angels did something similar in Angels of Darkness (mighnt have been only hundreds of Orks there, or maybe thousands, but there were only six Space Marines too.)

I don't think it would be impossible for Spacec Marines to achieve those kill ratios, but they'd need to engage at long range and use their superior weapons accuracy to their advantage (Their power armor can allow them to move faster than the Orks could - we're talking automobile speeds.) and a bolter ought to have an effective range of a kilometer or more (based on Angels of Darkness.) With heavy weapon support (plasma guns, meltaguns and grenade/missile launchers) they could eventually wear the orks down.

In either a fixed or mobile attack they could still do it as long as they had vehicle support and/or thunderhawk support.

But engaging them in a fixed line at TEN FUCKING METERS? Come on Abnett, I expect better of you. Maybe he's got the same atittude towards Space Marines that Ben Counter does.
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Post by Cykeisme »

What sort of equipment were the Brothers of the Snake front lines using? Just Tactical Space Marines, or Terminators?

Also, what was the terrain like? Did it happen to be narrow pass or something?
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

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"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
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Post by white_rabbit »

Cykeisme wrote:What sort of equipment were the Brothers of the Snake front lines using? Just Tactical Space Marines, or Terminators?

Also, what was the terrain like? Did it happen to be narrow pass or something?
Just a dirt road outside a city, as I mentioned, combat shields(without field tech as far as I could tell) and Snake lances (used for hunting...giant sea snakes) bolters, plasma guns and flamers were all mentioned as well. 5 squads of Tactical marines, with one Chief Librarian.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy »

One thing that isn't ever really clarified by the fluff relates to Daemons, bloodthirsters particularly. While there are some outstanding examples of them (one that fought primarchs and killed 500 marines with a stroke, and one that annihilated an Iron Warriors grand company), what is an "average" Bloodthirster capable of? Say, one of Angron's bodyguard ones (assuming they weren't juiced up by Angron's presence).

Could a good Lascannon hit kill one? Were they able to kill tanks, superheavies, etc.? Did they have any powers aside from hacking and slashing (ie summon lesser daemons)? Other than Aurelian's (sp?) casual owning of one, did they compare well against the Grey Knights?
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Regular energy/projectile weapons can harm/kill most daemons, or rather disrupt their phyiscal bodies. The first Grey Knight novel has some big bad demon who gets his physical body decimated by an under-strength Guard Regiment. As I recall there's some short story in the 40K game fluff form some time back where a regiment (either Krieg or the Mordian) are fighting daemons with lasguns and tanks, one guy even shot the ammo supply of a 'Russ to blow it up and take a major daemon with him, IIRC.)

Of course Daemons that are very powerful probably also have some powerful defences (daemonic equivalent to void shields/power fields or other defenses) Hell some might even have some "immunities" like thing that require specialized attacks (like psycannon or Force/Nemesis Force) weapons to peentrate.

A case could also be made in that the fanatical belief and the whole quasi-religious apporach to technology confer some sort of blessing or enchantment on weapons that allow them to damage such creatures...
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Post by Shortie »

As a random reference (at the risk of using game effects), in old Epic Greater Deamons came with a number of power-up spells they could use on other units, or sacrifice one-by-one to save themselves each time they were killed.

Psychic weapons (Grey Knights, Warlock Titans, etc) couldn't be saved in that way, and thus were rather useful against them.

To give it a little more detail, I'd say they can use their power to hold their bodies together against purely physical damage, but their power in the material realm is limited by a number of things (nearby worshippers, Warp conditions, thge power of the deamon, etc), and isn't infinite. Psychic weapons don't just do material damage, but also damage their link to the Warp, hence are a lot more deadly to them.

Thus their abilities are pretty variable, but normally pretty formidable. I wouldn't care to take one on with less than a company of marines or tanks, and that's starting at a distance.
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