Ciaphas Cain: CAves of Ice - analysis and discussion thread

[Adrian Laguna]

We've seen something similar before, in the old Ian Watson story Warped Stars, in Deathwing. In the Dark Age of Technology, they had the technology to convert a human brain into some kind of crystals, and retain potent psyker abilities.

Interesting, this explains certain things in the Eisenhorn trilogy.

[Teleros]

Given how the Deceiver acted to wipe out most of the other C'tan, I doubt he would tolerate letting another one "muscle in" so to speak.)

Read the Codex - he's realised he needs the others if they are to dominate the galaxy again.

If the aura effect is psychic, then again some otehr aspects of the Necrons (but not the C'tan, of course) coudl also be psychic. Although IIRC recent conversations, Pariahs were actually more like untouchables/blanks (liek Bequin in the Eisenhorn books or Jurgen here.) than psykers. Puzzling.

Probably just someone getting their fluff wrong when writing the book. As for the quote, well the wording could be including "anti-psychic" when it says "psychic phenomenon" ? You could describe the Culexus assassin's aura as a "psychic phenomenon" although it's not generated by a psyker (quite the opposite). At the very least this option keeps it simple .

[Adrian Laguna]

Given how the Deceiver acted to wipe out most of the other C'tan, I doubt he would tolerate letting another one "muscle in" so to speak.)

Read the Codex - he's realised he needs the others if they are to dominate the galaxy again.

That may be true, but I'm sure that once the galaxy is under their control, the Deciever will spare no expense to make sure "their" turns into "his".

[Stormbringer]

Given how the Deceiver acted to wipe out most of the other C'tan, I doubt he would tolerate letting another one "muscle in" so to speak.)

Read the Codex - he's realised he needs the others if they are to dominate the galaxy again.

That may be true, but I'm sure that once the galaxy is under their control, the Deciever will spare no expense to make sure "their" turns into "his".

And the rest of the C'tan are probably keen on devouring him as well; I have no doubt the Dragon in particular would love to destroy the Deceiver in turn. The C'tan are no more trusting than any pantheon in the 40k universe.

[Teleros]

That may be true, but I'm sure that once the galaxy is under their control, the Deciever will spare no expense to make sure "their" turns into "his".

Took that for granted . Although it'd be nice to see how he'd get around to doing that - he's known as one of the weaker C'Tan, and he's got three very nasty ones to take down - the Nightbringer sounds particularly unpleasant for the Deceiver to fight (don't know enough about the other two yet of course)...

[Stormbringer]

That may be true, but I'm sure that once the galaxy is under their control, the Deciever will spare no expense to make sure "their" turns into "his".

Took that for granted . Although it'd be nice to see how he'd get around to doing that - he's known as one of the weaker C'Tan, and he's got three very nasty ones to take down - the Nightbringer sounds particularly unpleasant for the Deceiver to fight (don't know enough about the other two yet of course)...

The Void Dragon (or just Dragon) is supposed to be the nastiest of the bunch from what I understand. Certainly he's the one that devoured most of his kin during the C'tan's infighting.

[Teleros]

Can't remember who devoured the most etc, but I suspect the whole "went to sleep for 60m years" thing has screwed things up. Plus the Void Dragon by the sound of it was given a good seeing to by the Talismen of Varl, so how much that weakened him is unknown. It may be that he emerges weak enough for the Nightbringer (who's been awake longer etc) to turn him into the main course .

[Lost Soal]

Can't remember who devoured the most etc, but I suspect the whole "went to sleep for 60m years" thing has screwed things up. Plus the Void Dragon by the sound of it was given a good seeing to by the Talismen of Varl, so how much that weakened him is unknown. It may be that he emerges weak enough for the Nightbringer (who's been awake longer etc) to turn him into the main course .

Could have swarn Nightbringer not only ate the most but was the first to start eating C'Tan. While Dragon is asleep still, he's getting fed by his cult on Mars, while the Nightbringer woke up virtually starving. No telling how much he's recovered yet.

[NecronLord]

Can't remember who devoured the most etc, but I suspect the whole "went to sleep for 60m years" thing has screwed things up. Plus the Void Dragon by the sound of it was given a good seeing to by the Talismen of Varl, so how much that weakened him is unknown. It may be that he emerges weak enough for the Nightbringer (who's been awake longer etc) to turn him into the main course .

WD287 - "Dying Flame - Last stand of the Firebrands" has it that a normal waking procredure involves being fed serveral stars by tombships. How this would be accompished on Mars is indeed a mystery. However, remember that the Nightbringer would have been stronger when he woke, if the ship that was feeding him hadn't been ambushed - this presumably didn't happen to the Dragon.

I don't know about the Dragon's fratricide rate being particularly high; he was simply 'The Greatest of their kind' presumably he just eats more stars than the others, or is somehow inherently superior to them.

[Adrian Laguna]

I could have sworn that for the C'tan devouring each other was a big no-no, at least if they want to remain in control of their faculties. The Outsider is insane because the Deceiver tricked him into eating others of their kind.

[white_rabbit]

I could have sworn that for the C'tan devouring each other was a big no-no, at least if they want to remain in control of their faculties. The Outsider is insane because the Deceiver tricked him into eating others of their kind.

The Deceiver itself actually consumed some of its "weaker brethren" and the Nightbringer murdered more of its fellows than anything else did.

Of course, I'm not sure the Nightbringer was exactly stable to begin with.

I always considered that the fact the Outsider got tricked into it, and wasn't prepared to eat its fellows caused problems.

It may have basically bitten off more than it could chew ?

[NecronLord]

Yah. They all did it. The Outsider did it wrong.

[Adrian Laguna]

Yah. They all did it. The Outsider did it wrong.

How do you do cannibalism wrong?

This is raising a lot of hilarious mental images.

[NecronLord]

How do you do cannibalism wrong?

He got their minds stuck in his craw, and they started torturing him.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Inquisitor rulebook explicitly states that Pariahs are powerful Untouchables. Other fluff indicates that the Necrons deliberately engineered the untouchable genes as anti-psyker measures as the warp is anathema to the C'tan.

While we've not actually seen it done, we've been told that necron Pariahs are made from untouchables like Bequin.

We've seen something similar before, in the old Ian Watson story Warped Stars, in Deathwing. In the Dark Age of Technology, they had the technology to convert a human brain into some kind of crystals, and retain potent psyker abilities. I mention this, because it seems that if they use the same science, pariahs may be repairable, just not battlefield-self-repairing, which would explain why the C'tan are willing to risk such a rare asset in seemingly trivial battles.

I kinda know this much (though I didnt find the paraih bit in Inquisitor), but the problem is, if Pariahs are like blanks and suppress/can't be touched by psychic powers, then how can they be projecting terror psychically like Caves of Ice implies (And thus be blunted like it?)

The only thing I can think of is that the Necrons can manipulate the untouchable effect in some manner or employ it in a more efficient manner: not only just sucking away or suppressing those abilities, but turning that affect towards generating the fear.

I guess either way it implies the Necrons can get more from Pariahs/untouchables/blanks than other races can.

[Imperial Overlord]

The untouchable/pariah effect is warp based. The terror projection is the result of their untouchable warp disturbance fucking with the warp souls of living beings. This is modifiable with technology/psychic effects, notably that assassin pariahs and the successful (although disasterous) attempt to project Bequin's mind into that of the Chaos Titan in Hereticus. Its a warp phenomena and like other warp phenomena, subject to warp affecting technology/abilities (Cadian Pylons, Force Staffs, etcetera).

The pariah reference is a sidebar on page 49 of the Core Rulebook, just above the biomancy section.

[white_rabbit]

Culexi probably have the most "potent" effects of any pariahs, augmented or otherwise I've read of yet, Its just so satisfying seeing a pointy ear choking on his own froth because an Imperial agent teleports in

[Imperial Overlord]

Culexi probably have the most "potent" effects of any pariahs, augmented or otherwise I've read of yet, Its just so satisfying seeing a pointy ear choking on his own froth because an Imperial agent teleports in

A pariah with a warp blast weapon is what I would call "potent". Or wank. *checks dictionary definition of Imperial Assassin* hmmmm. "Potent wank." Fits.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, this is the last buncha quotes for Caves of Ice. I wanna finish this up, then post a new essay, and start on the Gaunt's novels. I'll probably come back to Cain at a later date.

Page 228

- according to the tech priest Logash (survivor of the Necron assault that wiped out his companions), there was "eight million litres" of promethium stored in the fuel tanks. However, its worth noting they actually flooded the tunnels below (which, as noted, extend for kilometers down), and eight million litres does not quite seem... enough to bury the necrons (as happens.) Given the fact that the mines extend down for many kilometers easily, its quite likely that billions (or possibly trillions) of litres is more likely. (By my estimates, assuming a 3 km radius and 10% empty space, the mines probably need about 2 billion tons of promethium.

Also note that, given the later "FAE" commentary, the much GREATER quantity of promethium makes more sense. I'm pretty sure only 8 million litres would yield a fairly unrealistic energy density for mere chemical reactions (terajoule range, in fact.) Billions of liters (trillions if the explosion later is VERY big) yields much more plausible densities (e7-e8 J) Of course, we know that since promethium-filled ships can reach escape velocity, they must have an energy denstiy much better than modern gas as it is. Given that Logash is demonstrably not in his right mind (if not insane) by now, we can reasonably believe that his figure is inaccurate.


Page 241

- the Valhallans are boarding again now, Cain haven temporarily halted the Necrons by flooding the tunnels. However, the orks have returned, and the Gargant is now in range at this point. This implies that the Gargant is probably a few kilometers away, given prior statements (and what we know about other titan like constructions, even if Orks are notoriously inaccurate compared to other races.)

Page 243

- given the implied range above, Sentinels armed with lascannon are engaging the ork lighter vehicles at a range of several km at least.

Page 244

- the Valhallan lasguns open fire on the orks and the chimaera heavy bolters (Dozens, according to the book) open fire on the Gargant. The orks are described as sweeping along the length of the runaway parallel to the fuel tanks. Given the aforementioned size of the field, the "multi kilometer" implied engagement ranges by this are quite reasonable, given that the shuttles boarding are probably at the far end of the field. Likewise, this implies that lasguns and heavy bolters have multi-km ranges of course (then again, given its a laser and that they're firing on a horde of orcs, Accuracy isn't a great issue either.)

Page 245

- at this point, when a new shuttle is landing, the orks are close enough that Cain can fire on them with his laspistol. This seems odd, given the implications above, but then again laspistols in various sources have been used at ranges in excess of a hundred meters, its a laser, and orks are crowded together in huge numbers. (And later novels do imply Cain is VERY accurate with it even eyond its commonly accepted maximum range.) so its not neccesarily irreconcilable.

Page 246

The impact shook the ground beneath us, ,cracking the ice for hundreds of metres around the huge wreck, swallowing almost a third of that vast bulk and opening chasms which engulfed the vast majority of the fleeing greenskins.

After Cain orders the chimaeras to target the Gargant's weakened leg, it topples, and more than half the orks are within "hundreds of meters" around the Gargant, and are close enough to it to flee around it (or be caught in its collapse into the ice.) again hinting that the "multi-kilometre" range had some merit (though some of course did get into melee range.)

Page 246

- after a "short engagement' and the Valhallans advancing, the few surviving orks flee "beyond the effective range" of their lasguns. No idea how long htis is, but if we assume a couple of minutes, and the Valhallans advance while the orks run (And that an Ork runs at human speed) and consider that htey were at least several hundred metres away to begin with (mostly), the range could be at least a kilometer, probably more.

Page 248

- earlier in the book, charges were emplaced below the ice in order to shatter the ground and bury the gargant. Now, they intend to use the charges to set off the promethium Cain flooded undeground, creating a massive FAE (FAE bombs are known to the guard, obviously). According to the demo expert, the explosion will be "on the order of gigatonnes". Here is the mention of the FAE weapon (which clearly exist in 40K, in case someone wanst to claim otherwise) and the destructive scale. Again, this implies that the quantity of promethium unleashed into the underground caverns was drasticaly underestimated by Logash (who was not in his right mind.) It is at least two gigatons, but later incidents (the atmoshperic effects, and the implied size of the fireball/crater) indicate much higher.

Page 249

- the FAE will be "several kilometers wide." This depends on which effects its talking about, but its quite likely that no matter what it implies "several" is much higher than a few (consider the depth to reach the Necron warp gate, for example)

Page 250

- Necron skimmer weapons can "score visible channels' in the hull of the carggo shuttle the Valhallans are escaping of. Cain's estimation of this feat (the fact they could do any damage at all) tends to imply VERY significant firepower on the partt of the Necron vehicles. This echoes something in the Necron codex about the fact a Necron skimmer weapon can punch cleanly through a Land Raider means something on the order of "starship" scale firepower. not sure if that can be taken literally, since they are not precisely brute force weapons and "starship" can mean alot. It could imply that a skimmer is effectively more destructive than a multi-metla, which gives us an idea of just how powerful they acutally could be.

Page 251

- the exhaust of the shuttle takeoff vaporizes at least two skimmers. If we knew shuttle mass or acceleration (or coudl estimate it) we might get a resilience figure here. (For example, assuming 5 gees accel and a 200 ton shuttle - the size of a Fury fighter, the momentum is 1e6 kg*m/s. Assuming a chemical exhaust of around 10 km/s and one ton of fuel expended each second), this implies the shuttle was expending at least 50 Gigajoules. (of course its not purely energy, and they're not absorbing ALL of it.. but still./.)

Page 253

- the FAE detonation was so powerful the shockwave reached into the upper atmopshere (where its thinner), evidently just before reaching orbit (100-150 km or so). Had they been lower, the shockwave would have demolished them. This does seem to imply a yield much higher than the "two gigaton" lower limit.

[Connor MacLeod]

The untouchable/pariah effect is warp based. The terror projection is the result of their untouchable warp disturbance fucking with the warp souls of living beings. This is modifiable with technology/psychic effects, notably that assassin pariahs and the successful (although disasterous) attempt to project Bequin's mind into that of the Chaos Titan in Hereticus. Its a warp phenomena and like other warp phenomena, subject to warp affecting technology/abilities (Cadian Pylons, Force Staffs, etcetera).

Odd. Having read much of MAlleus and all of Xenos, I've gotten a different impression. OR rather what untouchables do is mentally screw with the physical operations of the brain in humans in some fashion (how I read it is that they some how prevent a psyker from using his brian to "tap" into the warp in any way, or block the connections that relate to that.) and its largely an electromagnetic suppression.

Or are you suggesting thta Pariahs use the warp to do what I am describing above (having inferred from the Eisenhorn books) then I suppose that makes some sense. In that context I also suppose Necron Pariahs would be able to further manipulate the brain iin a more extensive pattern (Creating the fear/terror effect, for example). Curious that it seems that they cna't do more than that, though. Have they been demonstrated to, for eample, cause individuals to pass out by shutting down brain functions? Or to cause something akin to a memory wipe?

The pariah reference is a sidebar on page 49 of the Core Rulebook, just above the biomancy section.

4th Edition, I'm assuming?

[Imperial Overlord]

No, the Inquisitor rulebook not the 40K book. Available as a free download from specialist games. link

The EMP in Malleus interfered with psychic phenomena by scrambling the electrical paths in Eserhaddon's brain. Since the brain is what connects to the warp, forming a warp soul, messing with the brain also messes with warp presence.

Untouchables are genetically different from the rest of humanity and have a different warp presence because of this. Its their lack of warp presence that makes them feel "wrong" to humans and is much worse for psykers who are much more sensitive to such things. There are undoubtedly some difference in an untouchable's brain, as that's what generates a warp presence in the first place and its their unnatural warp presence that makes people uncomfortable as it interacts with them through the warp and feedbacks into their own brain (sort of like "bad vibes" telepathic projection). Pariahs are untouchables strong enough that it can range to full scale fear and loathing.

[white_rabbit]

Or to cause something akin to a memory wipe?

As I recall, forgetfullness is common around untouchables, and in Daemonifuge a Culexus actually physically incapacitates a Harly, to the extent the chap is on the floor foaming at the mouth, and a Seer is weeping blood.

I'd say that there are actually several results of whatever genetic changes create an Untouchable.

There is an alteration which deals with both EM fields, as well as whatever projects an image/aligns the "iron filings" of a warp image.