Tau: "Good" Guys? (WH40K)

[NecronLord]

Actually in my honest opinion the reason for the Necrontyr hatred of the old ones was well reasoned.

Picture this, you live on a planet where the sun is so bad that everyone one the planet has cancer, garaunteed. No memeber of your species has ever reached 100 years of age.

There's really no evidence of that. Given what appears to have been a staggering degree of technology - presumably largely devoted to medicine - what are described as 'brief' lives need not be so very brief by our standards.

Then you find out that a bunch of snobs calling themselves whatever are traipsing around the universe creating/helping/enslaving other beings that are perfectly ok within their own enviroment and need no help. Then you discover that they essentially knew you were there all along and did nothing to help your race.

I'd hardly say that. There's no evidence that the Old Ones were aware of them (and certainly during the war, they couldn't match necrontyr stuff pound for pound, hence 'superior technology consistantly outmanouvered' by warp portals.[/quote]
Then using your superior technology you summong the equivalent of a god from your sun that tells you all sorts of things, including that they can make you immortal to finish and defeat a race that tried to condemn you to death.[/quote]There were 'long' wars before that. And given that the necrontyr may be over nine billion years old as a culture... that's long.

In their position i'd take it, the old ones = evil.
They created the Eldar, which in turn created Slaanesh through their decadence.
They created orks, which are a menace to the universe since they like fighting so much.
I suspect that they had a hand in the Tyranids. (But there is no proof there.)

These are much later. The Necrontyr clearly found some reasons to fight the Old Ones long before that.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'd hardly say that. There's no evidence that the Old Ones were aware of them (and certainly during the war, they couldn't match necrontyr stuff pound for pound, hence 'superior technology consistantly outmanouvered' by warp portals.

The only quotes I have seen on this is that the Old Ones mastery of the warp made up for their inferiority of inferiority in the purely physical technologies. Since warp ability includes Alpha level psykers and the Talismans of Vaul as well as warp portals, that doesn't mean the Old Ones were inferior in terms of raw power. Unless you can provide quotes otherwise, of course.

Secondly, while you are quite correct that the myths don't prove the Old Ones were benevolent, they don't prove them villians either. We know the Necrontyr fought the Old Ones and that the records are myth. The Necrontyr may have had fighting the good fight or they may have been making the Tau look warm and fuzzy.

[His Divine Shadow]

The C'tan can manufacture necrons effortlessly. The Deceiver's second fluff-appearance has him making a factory that creates them from an AdMech facility. They're not irreplaceable by any stretch of the imagination.

Source? Interested in getting some 40k novels. The Horus Heresy seems interesting(how many books are there), so does the tau and anything c'tan related.

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Good point i'd like to see the source of that. (Because it's interesting, and if the Void Dragon finds out the deceiver had better have a good excuse for using the Void Dragons people.... (The AdMech.)

[NecronLord]

The only quotes I have seen on this is that the Old Ones mastery of the warp made up for their inferiority of inferiority in the purely physical technologies. Since warp ability includes Alpha level psykers

Hyper rare, even among races like the Eldar, which the Old Ones created far later, with stronger - to the point of being dangerous - links to the warp. I wouldn't necesserily presume that even the Old Ones themselves were always that powerful, so much as that they had it down to an 'arcane science.'

and the Talismans of Vaul

Crafted many millions of years later, by the (preusmably vastly superior) gods of the Eldar, not the Old Ones

as well as warp portals, that doesn't mean the Old Ones were inferior in terms of raw power. Unless you can provide quotes otherwise, of course.

The eaxt phase is, "the Necrontyr could never win. Their superior technology was consistently outmanouvered by the Old Ones thanks to their mastery of the webway portals." I'd intepret that as suggesting that the key advantages of the Old Ones were that they had faster, or perhaps simply had, FTL abilities. The advantages of scale and speed are more than enough to crush an opponent with superior technology, and that's definately how I'd interpret that line, given its emphasis on the webway portals, as opposed to simply "they were no match for the magics of the Old Ones" or some such.

Secondly, while you are quite correct that the myths don't prove the Old Ones were benevolent, they don't prove them villians either. We know the Necrontyr fought the Old Ones and that the records are myth. The Necrontyr may have had fighting the good fight or they may have been making the Tau look warm and fuzzy.

Quite. I would of course, say that going about willy-nilly and 'spreading one's spawn' on any world liable to eventually create its own life is at best highly irresponsible when alternatives exist.

There's certainly no proof that either side was 'evil' but the cause given for the Necrontyr's assault reeks to high heaven of horse shit. It makes 'Saddam has WMDs/is in cahoots with Al-Quaeda' look entirely reasonable in comparison. And I don't hold much with 'seeding' worlds unless they're absolutely barren, where alternatives exist (see the Culture's stance on Terraforming, in Use of Weapons) which the Old Ones must surely have had access to. In the same way, turning developing species into 'minions' and slave races - well, the Draka did that with the rest of humanity... On balance I'd say the Old Ones' techniques appear to be vaguely exploitative and questionable.

HDS: I can do better than that. I can provide a copy of the story on a GWwebsite! There's only one real C'tan novel (and one necron one) which is Nightbringer. It's alright, but I wouldn't go mad on it, and it doesn't cover much about them.

[NecronLord]

Good point i'd like to see the source of that. (Because it's interesting, and if the Void Dragon finds out the deceiver had better have a good excuse for using the Void Dragons people.... (The AdMech.)

It didn't. It just butchered them. That said, presuming the Cthelmax-Lyriax (Dyson Sphere) C'tan is the Deciever (there's contention that it's the Outsider, but I'm not really a fan of that theory, because that would then put the total number of C'tan at five - or six, if we're having Goto's absurdity - and because the one Cypher was defeated by at Cthelmax was described as 'golden skinned' and so forth) he does indeed toss tech-preists back.

That said, given that Mephet'ran has 'living followers once more among the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus' and has argued for fusion bombing the Void Dragon's tomb and sealing it with ferrocrete, I think it's safe to say he's not planning on the Void Dragon waking up any time soon.

[NecronLord]

There is also the fact that the Codex appears to be written in a neutral 3rd person perspective from the outside, as it contains information no one faction would have access to.

This is incorrect. The codex is written in a third person synopsis style, this is true, however, it at no point contains no information that the Eldar, Hrud, and other extant races could not have access to what's more, it later proceeds on to "seperating fact from myth about the C'tan is impossible, and given their nature, it may be a mistake to even try" while maintaining the same person and tone. If a source outright says it is based on myth and makes no effort to determine truth, it is most certainly highly unreliable.

To wit, now that I have it in front of me. Just from pages 24 and 25, the section we're mostly talking about, we have a number of quotes indicating the quasi-contextual nature of the document...

• "It is said that..."
• "What little information is known of the Necrontyr tells..."
• "Fragmentary legends tell of..."
• "Whether the Necrontyr truly realised the price they would pay for accepting this pact with the C'tan will never be known..."
• "For reasons that will probably never be known..."

There's more in various other places throughout the book, of course.

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Exactly, much of what is known of the C'tan and Necrons is entirely Imperium or Eldar speculation. (Due to the Black Library etc.)

For all we know maybe the real reason the C'tan are attacking the universe is because the Tech Adepts of Mars refused to give them the recipe to VB (Victoria Bitter, Aussie beer, and the one Aliens would want most I imagine.)

However I beleive that we'll never know the fact behind the matter as GW only need the "now" for their game, not the why or when....

(Indeed there are many references to the Emperors name suggesting that Imperium citizens know it yet we never hear it... I suspect the God-Emperor is Andy Chambers.....)

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Oh and thanks for the link to that bit of fluff. Has to have been the Deceiver or those Elysians would not have made it out...

[NecronLord]

In general, we can be fairly certain that the story of the end of the war is accurate. Mephet'ran acknowledges it, somewhat, in Deus Ex Mechanicus. There can be little denying that the motivations of the C'tan appear to be very much based on personal power, with little to no regard for anything else.

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Ok.... *Hangs head*

Thats at least 4 books I have to get that I don't have so far.......

(Gaunts Ghosts novels..)
(Shadow Point)
(Deus Ex Mechanicus)
(Ravenor)

And probably more.... (And of them have a Vindicare or Eversor Assassin in them??)

[white_rabbit]

(Indeed there are many references to the Emperors name suggesting that Imperium citizens know it yet we never hear it... I suspect the God-Emperor is Andy Chambers.....)

A HighLord at most, Former at this point.

I would go with Rick Priestly as God Emperor of Games Workshop.

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Maybe the God-Emperor is the spirits of all GW designers incarnate in one body.? (Hell that'd even be fluffy....)

BTW White-Rabbit I posted a new pic on spacebattles of a Blackstone Warp cannon test i've done.

[NecronLord]

DEM is a short story by Andy Chambers. It's in one of the anthologies, or on the web if you know where to look. Featuring "Magos Prime Reston Egal."

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Thanks NL, I'll definately hunt around for it, i'll let you know and post a link if I do.

[NecronLord]

Thanks NL, I'll definately hunt around for it, i'll let you know and post a link if I do.

Let's not be linking copyrighted material from unofficial sources. I happen to know where they are, but don't think it appropriate to spread this.

[Big Orange]

its not like being a Tau peon reduces the likelyhood of any of this happening particularly you know.

All it does is make it so the Space Nazi's have even more reason to execute you, and you get forced into the expendable militia of the small kid on the block.

Lucky you eh ?

And somehow you're in a better position if you're a fully expendable IG infantryman thrown against the endless hordes of Ork warriors, Tyranid monsters, Necron drones and Chaos spawn? And aren't the Tau largely ignored by the C'Tan, Eldar and Chaos? And the Tau could keep local Orks in check and the only real danger to their society is the Tyranids coming into their end of the Milky Way. The Imperium of Man is arguably in a more untenable and grave position.

Given what we know of them, and descriptions of the Slaan as their 'first' creations, and those closest to them, I doubt they suddenly changed their MO utterly when the C'tan showed up.

I heard fluff rumours that the Slaan really are the Old Ones (although the Old Ones could be totally different).

There's really no evidence of that. Given what appears to have been a staggering degree of technology - presumably largely devoted to medicine - what are described as 'brief' lives need not be so very brief by our standards.

But that could've only happened until after the Necrontyr were spacefarers that could move away from their damaging sun and enhance their flesh with living metal. And how could the Necrontyr outmatch the Old Ones in certain technological fields when it was implied the Necrontyr were only bacteria seeded by the Old Ones when the Old Ones themselves were already a pan-galactic power?

[NecronLord]

And somehow you're in a better position if you're a fully expendable IG infantryman thrown against the endless hordes of Ork warriors, Tyranid monsters, Necron drones and Chaos spawn? And aren't the Tau largely ignored by the C'Tan, Eldar and Chaos?

Not really, no. There's one sept that the Dark Eldar really fucking love and keep on coming back to over and over.

And the Tau could keep local Orks in check

For now. Some orks.

and the only real danger to their society is the Tyranids coming into their end of the Milky Way. The Imperium of Man is arguably in a more untenable and grave position.

If the IoM goes tits up, life for the Tau is over.

I heard fluff rumours that the Slaan really are the Old Ones (although the Old Ones could be totally different).

Not really. In the old fluff, what are now called the Old Ones were called the Ancient Slaan

But that could've only happened until after the Necrontyr were spacefarers that could move away from their damaging sun and enhance their flesh with living metal. And how could the Necrontyr outmatch the Old Ones in certain technological fields when it was implied the Necrontyr were only bacteria seeded by the Old Ones when the Old Ones themselves were already a pan-galactic power?

This is most certainly not implied. The Necrontyr were a 'fierce young race' that 'struggled in the wake' of the Old Ones. The Old Ones are nowehere implied to have created the Necrontyr. The only real question about 'technological superiority' is if it meant purely material technology, or if the Necrontyr were broardly superior but logistically challenged.

[His Divine Shadow]

I've been assembling a list of 40k novels I could try out, any suggestions, comments?

Tau:
-Kill Team
-Firewarrior

Are there any more?

Horus Heresy:
-Galaxy in Flames (Horus Heresy)
-The Flight of the Eisenstein (Horus Heresy)
-False Gods: The Heresy Takes Root (The Horus Heresy)
-Horus Rising (The Horus Heresy)

C'tan related:
-Got Nightbringer from before but thats the only c'tan related novel I know of, but going form this thread there's lots of interesting c'tan fluff so there's got to be something.

[NecronLord]

Not really. There's two (or three, I've not read Goto's latest) other necron novels. Avoid anything with CS Goto as the author as though it's infested with black death. Other than that, there's Caves of Ice.

I reccommend all the Caiphas Cain books. They're Flashman in space, essentially. That said, they're not necesserily good introductions, as they have a very different tone. The Eisenhorn books are good. I didn't like Ravenor so much. The Inquisiton War trilogy, if you can get it, is dated (has concepts that don't remain) but superb.

The Horus Heresy books are quite good, but they're quite 'heavy' and do seem to presume you're well versed in the setting.

[His Divine Shadow]

I've read lots of 40k fluff before on the net. The Novels I own from before are: Execution Hour, Eye of Terror, Nightbringer, Farseer(a novel I am expecting a sequel to still) and Storm of Iron.

So I think I got a pretty good handle on the affairs of the 40k universe, atleast up until a year or more ago when I sorta lost interest. Seems like lots of new interestin stuff has come up in the meantime though.

[NecronLord]

Some, mostly the Horus books. I suggest getting them then.

[Big Orange]

I heard fluff rumours that the Slaan really are the Old Ones (although the Old Ones could be totally different).

Not really. In the old fluff, what are now called the Old Ones were called the Ancient Slaan

So Old One are the Ancient Slaan and the "modern" Slaan = Old Ones' servants?

But that could've only happened until after the Necrontyr were spacefarers that could move away from their damaging sun and enhance their flesh with living metal. And how could the Necrontyr outmatch the Old Ones in certain technological fields when it was implied the Necrontyr were only bacteria seeded by the Old Ones when the Old Ones themselves were already a pan-galactic power?

This is most certainly not implied. The Necrontyr were a 'fierce young race' that 'struggled in the wake' of the Old Ones. The Old Ones are nowehere implied to have created the Necrontyr. The only real question about 'technological superiority' is if it meant purely material technology, or if the Necrontyr were broardly superior but logistically challenged.

Well it shows that the Necrontyr most likely were motivated by petty jealousy if they were not directly cultivated by the Old Ones; you could feel sorry for them, but they were highly advanced themselves and could successfully prolong their lives anyway. I guess the Necrontyr could never defeat the Old Ones in a straight fight simply because the Old Ones had a multi-galaxy spanning empire eons before they did and that insinuates far, far greater numbers (though the Necrontyr had more dynamic technology). Whatever happened I can't really feel for the Necrontyr if you had pensioners (the Old Ones) having their cultivated garden wreaked by a load of petulant brats wanting something they don't deserve.

[Inquisitor Ryan]

What I find strangest is that the Old Ones were supposedly so damn powerful etc because of their Warp abilities but there is no hint anywhere that they knew of the C'tan's existence before the first C'tan (I think it was the Deceiver or Nightbringer, but possibly the Void Dragon) began ravaging the Old Ones at the head of the Necrontyr military.

[andrewgpaul]

I've read lots of 40k fluff before on the net. The Novels I own from before are: Execution Hour, Eye of Terror, Nightbringer, Farseer(a novel I am expecting a sequel to still)

Highly unlikely, sadly - Black Library are too stingy to pay Bill a decent fee for the book. I suppose they could pass it on to someone else, like they're doing with Orcslayer.