Sauron/Orcs vs the USA

[Crossover_Maniac]

Why is magic assumed to be invincible to technological countermeasures or replacements? Why can't technology achieve what magic does?

A common theme here is: "it's magic, so no technology can affect it". Has anyone even attempted to justify this leap in logic? What if I said "it's high tech, so no magic can possibly affect it"? Would you accept that too? It carries just as much logical weight!

Here's an example of magic beating the very laws of physics: a witch turns a 180 lb man into a 5 oz frog. There goes the law of conservation of mass. What happen the rest of the prince, all 179 lbs 11 oz. Or Cinderella. The little pumpkin turns into a carriage large enough for an adult woman to ride in. What about Peter Pan? He's not what I can aerodynamic and happy thoughts doesn't produce enough energy to elevate Peter's altitude. And Tinker Bell. I don't think she could fly even with her wings. Yeah, magic does nothing but break every rule of nature in existance.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Are you kidding, I say Sauron'd take one look at how nasty and evil we mere mortals an be and run home to surrender to the Valar. Sauron had Orcs. We had Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot!

Not to mention Martha Stewart ...

Martha Stewart is a pick pocket compared ot Kenneth Lay and Michael Eisner.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Not at all, he's a Istari who got his information from another Istari who spent the last thousand years studying the Ring of Power.
And you didn't respond to my other point. If it were just a matter of extreme heat, like from a welding torch, then the relatively little heat from Frodo's hearth should have at least warmed it a little, right? It didn't at all.

Correction. It didn't warm it to any degree that Frodo found noticeable. Let's say that it's made of a magical material that has one thousand times the specific heat of iron. No such material exists; it could only be made by magic. And in the absence of modern-day technology, it could only be unmade by magic. But what if technology can overcome the barrier set by magic? What if technology can destroy an object with a thousand times the specific heat of iron? There's nothing in the trilogy to deny this speculation; objects in Middle Earth still have physicality; the Rings, imbued as they are with some form of magic, were still forged somewhere, and forging is a simple matter of heat and impact. Does the word "forging" have a different meaning in Middle Earth too?

Magic is like modes of FTL between different universes. Sometimes, magic manifest itself as little more than enhanced midevil weapons (Excaliber). Other times, it's reality-altering (Sandman by DC Vetigo).

I have been accused of trying to apply science to a realm where science does not apply. I would agree that there appear to be phenomena in Middle Earth which do not conform to our understanding of the universe, but as I see it, magic is layered on top of an underlying physical universe like ours, rather than supplanting its rules entirely with new ones. It is like adding "subspace" to the laws of the universe; it adds new phenomena, and it may add new capabilities, but it does not necessarily mean that the conventional rules go out the window.

It's not that you throw the conventional rules out of the window, they are suspended by using magic.

Even in Middle Earth, a tree is still a tree. Roots are still roots. Mortal men still have a heart, a stomach, a liver, a brain, a skull.

Not quite. Galdolf had a brain, heart, stomach, liver, and skull, but he wasn't human. He was a Maia, a spirit that fills the roal of angels in the Tolkien-verse. It's obvious that isn't a human since he came back from the dead and had 'abilities beyond those of mortal men' (ripping off Shuster and Siegal). There's a physical and metaphysical aspect to fantasy that gives certain things a quality that doesn't exist in the physical realm. A ring that doesn't grow hot in fire and corrupt anyone that uses it dispite their best intention (a big difference between fantasy and science fiction is that the magic is either good or bad as opposed to science which is amoral and is completely dependent on the user whether the technology has a positive or negative effect upon the world).

Technology will still work. What separates Middle Earth from our world is that magic works too. But even magic has its limits. Even a wizard can die if knocked off a cliff or stabbed through the heart.

And pops back to life afterwards.

[Tanith]

Here's an example of magic beating the very laws of physics: a witch turns a 180 lb man into a 5 oz frog. There goes the law of conservation of mass. What happen the rest of the prince, all 179 lbs 11 oz. Or Cinderella. The little pumpkin turns into a carriage large enough for an adult woman to ride in. What about Peter Pan? He's not what I can aerodynamic and happy thoughts doesn't produce enough energy to elevate Peter's altitude. And Tinker Bell. I don't think she could fly even with her wings. Yeah, magic does nothing but break every rule of nature in existance.

Well, to be fair, Tokein kept magic pretty low key in his stories in order to maintain its mystery. Besides, the Third Age is basically the age where the powers of magic waned in Middle Earth, being supplanted by normals and all.

Most of the magic that appeared in LOTR (not counting the Silmarion and the Letters), tend to be sympathetic in nature, or perhaps psionic. Thus, to those that haven't read the prequels, it would seem that Middle Earth magics are just a dust layer over a mundane world.

[Tanith]

Technology will still work. What separates Middle Earth from our world is that magic works too. But even magic has its limits. Even a wizard can die if knocked off a cliff or stabbed through the heart.

And pops back to life afterwards.

That's not exactly magic. That's more like Divine Intervention or Middle Earth metaphysics... In the Middle Earth mythos, we know that the soul is immortal, it's just what happens to the soul after 'death' that matters. Valar and Maiar just pop right back, since they have little to do with their physical forms. Elves who die go to stay in Mandos, and some get released back onto Valinor or (in Glorfindel's case) back to Middle Earth. Human souls leave the dimension/plane of Middle Earth after death. Where they go, not even the Valar know.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Hey Tanith. Welcome to the ISD messageboard.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Since somebody else brought up Saruman vs Count Dooku, I couldn't help but ask this one.

Now come on, who seriously thinks that Sauron and his orc armies, despite coolness and badass style, would hold up to ... oh, say, carpet bombing?

And the One Ring? Can't be melted anywhere but Mount Doom? Those primitives have never run into a plasma torch, have they?

The Orc armies would be destroyed, but Sauron can not be killed by mortal weapons...period...this is canon.

The one ring can only be destroyed by casting it into the fires of Mount. Doom, this is the only way.

It is canon....

It's not about physics....it's about magic. Remember that.

Blast the top of mount Doom open with JDAM's, then drop in the ring from a helocopter. Problume solved..

Oh really...sounds so easy! Who is going to pull that off?

[Tanith]

Yer welcome, CM. I've actually been lurking here every once in a while ever since Parallax posted about it in Rumbles.

I only decided to sign on after a friend from school learned about this place through me and decided to post here. I probably won't post nearly as much here as on CBR, though. No YVTW, after all!

[Invader ZIm]

I tend to side with Mike's analysis. The characters in LOTR are pretty accepting of Gandalf's declaration that the ring can only be destoryed at its point of origin, and never test out any alternatives to the plan of treking all the way to Mt. Doom to chuck the damn thing back in. Wouldnt have made for much of a story if Frodo and Co. had come across some pretty potent acid ( for example ) and decided to try desolving the ring, say a day or two into the quest. and discovered "well whadd'u'know!" it worked!

But even if the only way to destory the ring is to drop it into Mt. Doom, modern science and engineering has a solution to that as well.

We cant directly destory it, well fine. Then lets just make sure the enemy CANT ever make use of it either. There are several possiblities I can think of...

Irradiate the ring so that it is truely unwearable for 20 or 30 thousand years. This could also prove to an effective way to deal with your own men trying to use the ring. Suppose, for example a detacment of the 75th Rangers manages to AA into Mt. Doom on a mission to toss this tacky bauble into a lava pit. But something goes wrong and one of the guys, looses his mind, puts the ring on and the mission fails. Never fear! That guy's life exptancy is about 1 week max thanks to the heavy dosage of radiation the ring has been soaking up from a C60 source it was exposed to prior to the mission.

Encase the ring in something that will prevent humans from coming into direct contact with it and prevent the enemy obtaining the ring should they cature it. Sort of like stealing a safe and finding out you have no way of opening it. Depleted Uranium could be a nice candidate as the orcs would have a hell of a long wait trying to melt the ring out a block of it or trying to cut it out with Middle Earth ( essientialy Middle Ages ) technology.

This one is a bit off beat but what the heck. Just give them the damn ring back ( assuming they dont already have it). And set up a Massive induction field in Mordor or Mt. Doom ( whatever ). Gauss' Law will do the rest. The Motion of a closed metal loop in an electrical field will generate current, and assuming the e field is strong enough, you could generate enough current to flash fry the ring wearer. Like I said wacky but...

Or you could place the ring out of reach of all of the Middle Earth mustachioed bad guys by launching it into orbit. Or go a step further by placing it on a probe bound for Jupiter. Even if the intense pressure and temperture didnt destroy the ring, there is zero chance that it would ever be recovered by anyone. (side note the Sun is a good target as well, possiably even a better one than Jupiter. After all who knows it might just be destroyed. )

There are some other possiablities but they all depend on the metalic composition of the ring. What type of cyrstal structure the metal its made of produces. If the structure is appropriate you might be able to introduce intersital impruities into the ring and reduce its strength to the point where modern human technology could break it up. But this last one is pure speculation because the composition of the ring is said to be simply Gold in the books if I remember correctly. Thats not much to go on, but if modern Humans go there hands on it in a enginnering materials lab it would take about a day to figure out all the important aspects of its makeup.



NO GIR! THESE PIGGIES ARE FOR SCIENCE!

[Tanith]

Since somebody else brought up Saruman vs Count Dooku, I couldn't help but ask this one.

Now come on, who seriously thinks that Sauron and his orc armies, despite coolness and badass style, would hold up to ... oh, say, carpet bombing?

And the One Ring? Can't be melted anywhere but Mount Doom? Those primitives have never run into a plasma torch, have they?

In a fight between Morder and the U.S., I really don't think Sauron's forces are going to win it.

The orcs are basically canon fodder. Your average farmer with a rifle can take a large band of orcs without too much problems, much less an organized military. Same for most of the other beasties that Sauron controlled (giant spiders and whatnot).

The Nazgul would be harder to down, but they have shown to have a weakness to fire. While fire doesn't destroy them, it does slow them down a lot and force them back to Mordor to get a new working coporeal form again (or something like that). Also, remember that the fear aura of the Nazgul does have a range limit. It gets worse as people get in close proximity with them. Fortunately, modern military has a lot of ranged weapons that can do damage to the Nazgul without getting close enough for the operator to be affected too much.

Also, it is possible to destroy the Nazgul, or at least their leader, without resorting to destroying the Nine Rings. The prophecy basically gave an out to any non-male human to whack the guy, and while Eowyn was an abnormality in Middle Earth, the U.S. does have women in military service. Having one of them pull the trigger ought to fulfill the technical requirements of the prophecy for the King of Angmar's destruction.

Failing that, they can always destroy the Nine Rings, which are vulnerable to dragon-fire, and thus probably to high levels of modern tech generated heat. The main problem there is to keep the people who are charged to destroyed those rings from being corrupted by them before they're destroyed, but it should be doable. The Nine Rings most likely worked slower than the more potent One Ring. Also, I'm not quite sure if the Nazgul still wear their rings anymore, or if Sauron took them back to use to trace the One Ring. If the latter case is true, then getting the nine rings might be non-viable as well.

Finally, to destroy Sauron himself would be the hardest problem. The One Ring is instantly corrupting to anyone around it without superhuman willpower or inhuman innocence/lack of ambition. Isildur only had it for an hour or so as he climbed Mt. Doom, and he fell under the spell. Suffice it to say, while modern tech *might* be able to destroy it without resorting to Mt. Doom, no one will be *able* to resist in helping Sauron and the Ring once they have it.

On the other hand, Sauron by himself can't really do too much damage to the U.S. His most prominent ability, the very reason he rose in the ranks under Morgoth, was his skill in corruption and manipulation. However, the circumstances of his corruption of Numenor and trickery of Celebrimbor is harder to reproduce in modern society.

Sauron had lost his corporeal (and aesthetically appealing) form at the sinking of Numenor, making his manipulation of others harder. Also, Numenor was an autocracy, making it a far easier target for Sauron to corrupt -- all he had to do was get the king and nobles, and the rest would follow like lemmings. In the U.S., that is not possible due to the very nature of democracy -- with time-limited terms of office and public elections. Sauron would have to directly corrupt the majority of American citizens to get any sort of power over the U.S., and I just don't see it happening.

As for his corruption of Celebrimbor, Sauron was able to entice the smiths with magic lore and more powerful magical smithing techniques. Needless to say, modern production isn't very interested in magical swords and rings, or whatever lore Sauron can promise. After all, modern technology tends to get the job done better.

Conclusion:

Sauron and his forces can't really do much harm to the U.S. There are far too many ways for us to thwart them. The majority of his forces, including perhaps the Nazgul, are within the ability of the U.S. military to handle. It's only when we get to the One Ring and the destruction of Sauron himself that things get problematic. But, if given (or deducing/figuring out) the corruptive influence of the ring, I'm sure that human ingenuity can come up with *some* way to circumvent it.

[Rathark]

Why is magic assumed to be invincible to technological countermeasures or replacements? Why can't technology achieve what magic does?

A common theme here is: "it's magic, so no technology can affect it". Has anyone even attempted to justify this leap in logic? What if I said "it's high tech, so no magic can possibly affect it"? Would you accept that too? It carries just as much logical weight!

Here's an example of magic beating the very laws of physics: a witch turns a 180 lb man into a 5 oz frog. There goes the law of conservation of mass. What happen the rest of the prince, all 179 lbs 11 oz. Or Cinderella. The little pumpkin turns into a carriage large enough for an adult woman to ride in. What about Peter Pan? He's not what I can aerodynamic and happy thoughts doesn't produce enough energy to elevate Peter's altitude. And Tinker Bell. I don't think she could fly even with her wings. Yeah, magic does nothing but break every rule of nature in existance.

The rest of the 180 lb man could be chemically transformed into smoke, carbon dioxide and other organic substances. Hence a shapeshift where there is a sudden puff of smoke is more "realistic" than a clean shapeshift, although the energy required would still be close to the gigajoule range. Conversely, a pumpkin turning into a carriage could "suck in" a ton of atmospheric molecules and elements from the sky above. Peter Pan and Tinkerbell may have impressive telekinesis, but perhaps the power is easier to use when happy, for purely psychological reasons.

[lgot]

On the other hand, Sauron by himself can't really do too much damage to the U.S. His most prominent ability, the very reason he rose in the ranks under Morgoth, was his skill in corruption and manipulation. However, the circumstances of his corruption of Numenor and trickery of Celebrimbor is harder to reproduce in modern society.

eh ? What purity is this ?
You mean, the united states that had a Kissinger in "command" for more than a decade ? Kissinger is a minor Sauron.
Bush ? you mean the dude who is ignorant about what surrounds him and classify the world as "against me or with me" ?
US today is pretty much what Numedor was back then, a country who reached a overpower position (the Numedor was in decadence of course, but It still had in humans society the peak) and is arrogant about it.
Moderm World is peace of Cake for Sauron.

[Tanith]

I never said anything about "purity". The Elves and the Men of Numenor were supposedly as inhumanly pure and strong-willed as they come, and they were still manipulated by Sauron.

What I was referring to was the differences in circumstance between them and us. In order to manipulate someone to do something they were opposed to in the first place, there must be some reasonable incentive that Sauron could use to convince the rest of us. Mind controlling just a few individuals just aren't going to do it, not in a democracy... and a beauracracy.

When Sauron tricked the Men of Numenor, he had two in's with them that he hasn't with us. First, he was able to take on fair forms (presumably more than one) and persuade with both appearance and sweet speech. Since the sinking of Numenor, he no longer has that option, and any form he takes is now obviously dark and evil. Thus, he's hardly going to win any popular trust with us by that method as he did the Numenoreans. Second, he was able to take advantage of the elven bloodline of the Numenoreans, convincing them that they should share the same immortality of the Elves by right of blood. In modern times, no one is going to take claims of immortality, much less some mystical land/dimension of the Gods somewhere over the sea, at all seriously. Sauron might be able to gain a small cult following, but I doubt he'd be able to convince the rest of us to defy some random gods called the Valar...

When Sauron manipulated the Elves of Eregion, and tricked Celebrimbor into making the Rings of Power, he had been able to appeal to their curiousity and love of learning. Sauron did have more knowledge of arcane lore and smith-magic or whatever, which the Elves were interested in. In modern day society, though, mass machine manufactor have practically taken over the whole smithing business, producing much better stuff than the old magic-smiths. Similarly, Sauron has not a bit of arcane lore that would interest any modern person except for maybe the odd cultist or whatnot. Thus, his chances of manipulating modern people through illusory offers of power and lore is... well... is pretty empty.

That's why I say that it's going to be much more difficult for Sauron to dominate the modern U.S. through guile than any Middle Earth kingdom or race. We have far less weaknesses that Sauron *can* take advantage of.

[Enforcer Talen]

-imagines mass produced one rings-

hehehehehehe

[Rathark]

Let's not forget that Sauron is, literally, a Fallen Angel. Anything you could imagine Satan doing, Sauron would do. All he'd have to do is sit back and research modern America. While his choice of tactics would still be limited, the phrase "You can fool some of the people all of the time" would apply perfectly in his case. All he'd have to do is pull the right strings. It may take generations, but he'd HAVE generations. He's immortal.

In fact, the situation would become so dire that the Valar would be forced to send a new group of Istari to counter the slowly growing threat.

[Rathark]

In modern day society, though, mass machine manufactor have practically taken over the whole smithing business, producing much better stuff than the old magic-smiths.

Like Sony Magic Rings, for example?

Similarly, Sauron has not a bit of arcane lore that would interest any modern person except for maybe the odd cultist or whatnot. Thus, his chances of manipulating modern people through illusory offers of power and lore is... well... is pretty empty.

Ah, but Sauron practices REAL magic. That would freak out any modern-day westerner. One imagines a cult forming on a scale that would astonish Jim Jones.

[Mr Bean]

Like Sony Magic Rings, for example?

Yep only 19.99 Sony Magic Rings +2, Dang I love Captialism

[Mr Bean]

Drat hit submit,
A follow-up

Ah, but Sauron practices REAL magic. That would freak out any modern-day westerner. One imagines a cult forming on a scale that would astonish Jim Jones.

He'd have to Demostrate Said Power's Would he not?

Also Magic is fun is because the farther away you are from the Source of your power, the weaker you are

So what if big Bad Sauron comes? Remeber the Portal is in the middle of the Ocean, so he's swiming, He'd have to find it first and in the mean time trying to stop those A-10s and the Napam

[Tanith]

Like Sony Magic Rings, for example?

Heh. I doubt modern day machine manufacturing techniques can be adapted to include magic rituals. Those actually require a person there to cast the rite/spell/whatever. Of course, that method of making stuff was exactly what mass manufacturing machines replaced since the Industrial Revolution.

Ah, but Sauron practices REAL magic. That would freak out any modern-day westerner. One imagines a cult forming on a scale that would astonish Jim Jones.

Perhaps... but the fact that he can only promise them "REAL" *useless* magic, that would keep anyone important from joining in. This goes back to the whole 'anything he can do with magic, we can do better with tech' idea.

[Tanith]

Let's not forget that Sauron is, literally, a Fallen Angel. Anything you could imagine Satan doing, Sauron would do. All he'd have to do is sit back and research modern America. While his choice of tactics would still be limited, the phrase "You can fool some of the people all of the time" would apply perfectly in his case. All he'd have to do is pull the right strings. It may take generations, but he'd HAVE generations. He's immortal.

Unless, of course, the U.S. finds out about the One Ring and comes up with a way of successfully destroying it.

Never underestimate a hobbit's resiliency....

....and never underestimate human ingenuity.

[lgot]

I never said anything about "purity". The Elves and the Men of Numenor were supposedly as inhumanly pure and strong-willed as they come, and they were still manipulated by Sauron.

To be immune to such corruption must have such purity. that is all.

What I was referring to was the differences in circumstance between them and us. In order to manipulate someone to do something they were opposed to in the first place, there must be some reasonable incentive that Sauron could use to convince the rest of us. Mind controlling just a few individuals just aren't going to do it, not in a democracy... and a beauracracy.

eh ? You joke dont you ? Why do a few ? Britney Spears do not affect a few, she affect thousand and thousads offering just one incetinve (Sex).
And Bush ? How many he manipulated to have his votes ? Why not Sauron ? And besides, how many had Kissinger to manipulate just 20 years ago to do and have the power he had ?
The democracy of USA is kind failed, after all, who had more votes from the people ?

Since the sinking of Numenor, he no longer has that option, and any form he takes is now obviously dark and evil

You mean, Like Marylin Manson ? (Here I am just joking. Image is something that you can work today. )

Second, he was able to take advantage of the elven bloodline of the Numenoreans, convincing them that they should share the same immortality of the Elves by right of blood.

You mean, he would just had to found the reason of American's pride, which is obviouly not the same of the Numeror.
Let say "Yes, USA, you, as the most powerful nation, do not need to follow old treats and yes, you have the right to tell other countries how to behave.". You think Bush wont fall for this trick ?

Sauron might be able to gain a small cult following, but I doubt he'd be able to convince the rest of us to defy some random gods called the Valar...

Unlikely, Science defy gods because they found they do exist. If Sauron show up, he would be a evidence of such powerful things. Mostly commum people just need such evidence to follow a cult.
And he would ? Osama just did it, dont he ?

When Sauron manipulated the Elves of Eregion, and tricked Celebrimbor into making the Rings of Power, he had been able to appeal to their curiousity and love of learning.

Again he would just to found out the USA (let be clear, that I talk USA because they are the most powerful country in the world. Any governament and nation can work with this also).
"Yeah, Bush, dear. You know how to build many bullets. I know how to make them convert the people hit instead of killing. Interested ??"
"Oh, my Bush(or insert a world leader) dear. Here, You give this ring to those you have as enemy and they will obey you. Have you any interest ?"
"Those are the mariners ? Eww, bread them with my orcs and you will have much superior mariners. Actually, you will have the joy of mothers, because instead of their child dying in way, there going to be those ugly things"

That's why I say that it's going to be much more difficult for Sauron to dominate the modern U.S. through guile than any Middle Earth kingdom or race. We have far less weaknesses that Sauron *can* take advantage of.

The one weakness he always used was pride and arrogance. Which is present here as anytime anyday.