Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

[Gunhead]

Well it's not my fucking fault if GW writes bad fluff. I use figures I know, that 400mm is something quantified by GW, so I use it. I already said that supers actually should have more armor than that and I even provided a reason why is it so. GW game mechanics don't really account for angle of impact so I threw it in because it would matter in real life. If you can give me calculations that put IoM armor in the GJ range please do.

Tau has railguns whoopy doo. Well the IoM doesn't use Tau weapons so what they can or can't do means jack shit.

My numbers don't go along with your idea what IoM tech can do, too bad. Provide me alternatives.

-Gunhead

[Currald]

Measurements would be nice, the actual thickness of armor, projectile velocities, projectile weights and stuff like that.

They certainly would be nice.

My point was that it is clearly stated superheavies and praetorians have extra-ordinarily thick armour, and this was in a period where the Land Raider was called the Astartes' Main Battle Tank.

[Gunhead]

Currald, that would depend who's making the statement. Super heavies armor should be better than IG's normal tanks not so much because of thickness but better ballistic design (well it's a bit thicker too). Now normal techie in IoM doesn't even know what land raider is made of, because they are manufactured in SM's own forges.
Even land raider should have better armor at the front because it's angled. SM vehicles and titans get the best in terms of materials, IG has to cope by using more of inferior materials. Plasteel armor is made by casting, this method puts limitations what kind of materials can be used to enhance it's properties.

Now if they'd make a baneblade using Land raider armor that would be something.

-Gunhead

[Black Admiral]

Well it's not my fucking fault if GW writes bad fluff. I use figures I know, that 400mm is something quantified by GW, so I use it. I already said that supers actually should have more armor than that and I even provided a reason why is it so. GW game mechanics don't really account for angle of impact so I threw it in because it would matter in real life. If you can give me calculations that put IoM armor in the GJ range please do.

I've already cited such an example, from Storm of Iron. And from Deus Ex Mechanicus all Imperium light antiarmour weapons are at least in the GJ range.

Hell, just check Connor's lasgun calcs earlier in this thread. Lasguns are utterly useless against tanks (except as demo charges if jammed in the treads), which gives a lower limit for thermal energy resistance of a Leman Russ's armour as double, possibly triple digit MJ range.

Tau has railguns whoopy doo. Well the IoM doesn't use Tau weapons so what they can or can't do means jack shit.

Look, Tau railgun slugs are moving fast enough that they ignite the air along their flight path. That means that they're moving pretty damn fast, and they're the only weapons bar Titan ones that can punch through both front and rear armour of a Leman Russ.

And 105mm hypersonic tungsten-cored rounds were glancing off the front armour of a Conqueror-pattern MBT (Honour Guard), which sets a lower limit for how much KE the armour can withstand.

[Gunhead]

105mm tungsten cored APDS 280mm at 1km 254mm at 1.5 km <---Lover limit of Russ armor. This round is similar to the round used by the vanquisher so It's a good estimate.

US M829A3 120mm DU 960mm at 2km (200x) <--- Estimated

HEAT weapons are a bit trickier, must look into it a bit more.
They do unleash some pretty wicked energies, just how much I'm trying to determine here.

-Gunhead

[Black Admiral]

105mm tungsten cored APDS 280mm at 1km 254mm at 1.5 km <---Lover limit of Russ armor. This round is similar to the round used by the vanquisher so It's a good estimate.

Thing is, this was at less than 40 meters (how much less I have no idea), and the only result of the impact was that it dazed the crew and knocked out the laser rangefinder+other scopes.

US M829A3 120mm DU 960mm at 2km (200x) <--- Estimated

HEAT weapons are a bit trickier, must look into it a bit more.
They do unleash some pretty wicked energies, just how much I'm trying to determine here.

-Gunhead

No stated shell mass for Tau railguns I know of, I'm afraid.

[DocHorror]

The Land Raider’s survivability comes from its many layered composite armour which, thanks to Magos Land's STC data, can be manufactured from a wide variety of different resources and materials. Its size makes it less unwieldy in battle than the Super-heavy Baneblades, Stormhammers and Shadowswords used by the Imperial Guard, without any significant reduction in protection.

This is from the GW website, just a bit on the Landraider.

[Gunhead]

The penetration qualities of a tank round don't drop off that quickly, so it matters very little was the round fired from 2m away or 100m away.

A modern 120mm APFSDSDU-T will fly completely straight to about 1500m.

The fact that the 105mm round did damage the optics on the tank, mean it had to partially penetrate the armor. It's still a hit to a vulnerable spot so it can't be used to determine the KE resistance of the main armor.


-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

Thanks Doc, that actually supports what I've read in IA and it's update. L.R is about twice as fast as the supers. At 70t it's also a lot lighter.

-Gunhead

[white_rabbit]

Thanks Doc, that actually supports what I've read in IA and it's update. L.R is about twice as fast as the supers. At 70t it's also a lot lighter.

-Gunhead

Space Marine vehicles can also survive a 20 second orbital re-entry....if I was willing to inflict the time to calc the effects of that upon myself I would.

Imperial guard hulls are also of differing grades, from simple cast hulls, to layered composites, and ablative/reactive armour. hell, they even have electrified hulls (anti-monster device really though)

[Currald]

DocHorror, a nice, explicite example of what Gunhead has been talking about. Thanks. So the superheavies might have thicker armor, but it isn't necessarily all that much better both because of inferior materials, and the angling mentioned by Gunhead.
I don't quite understand why the Land Raider has a superior armor to the other vehicles. Aren't all of the tech marines trained by the Ad Mech anyway? Perhaps it is just a matter of manpower and resources available? The marines get the most expensive equipment?

Anyway, on to the really big guys: Titans and Praetorians.

Emperor class Titan tower some 25-40 meters tall. They mount veritable arsenals of weaponry and are protected by up to twelve void shield generators and armour so thick it would not be out of place on a planetary defense installation.... The Imperator is one of the larger examples of a Emperor class Titan.... Twelve void shield generators and metres-thick armour ensure that...

This at least gives us a lower limit of 2m thick armor on the Imperator.

Squats design with survivability in mind and the Cyclops is no exception. It has metres-thick skin of the toughest alloys that give is a 1+ saving throw. It's armour has the same thickness all round...

Note that the Cyclops is a praetorian very similar to the Leviathan and the Capitol Imperialis, and its armor saving throw rules are identical to those of other praetorians. In fact, the Leviathans were made by the Squats (at least, before the Nids ate 'em). We can reasonably extrapolate that the Leviathan and CI have "metres-thick armour" too.

[Black Admiral]

Currald, Imperators have been boosted to about 100 meters tall in more recent fluff (Storm of Iron by Graham McNeill and Iron Hands by Jon Green).

Reavers seem to fill the 25-40 meter tall bracket, with Warhounds set at about twenty meters (active), and Warlords hitting anywhere from 40 to 60 meters tall (class dependant).

[DocHorror]

The Land Raider proved to be essential for both sides during the bitter fighting that would decide the fate of the Imperium. It was one of the few vehicles that could, when used in sufficient numbers, hold off and even destroy the massive Titans of the Adeptus Mechanicus, whilst its ability to fight in almost any imaginable warzone, including sea beds and in highly corrosive atmospheres, meant that it saw more service than any other machine of war. The Heresy was eventually crushed by the sacrifice of the Emperor, but with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne none dared countermand his order that Land Raiders were for the exclusive use of the Space Marines. Thus has it remained for the last ten thousand years.

And a bit more from the same place. I highlighted the bit I find most interesting.

[DocHorror]

Its name was Crour Vult. It weighed two and a half thousand tonnes and stood sixty metres tall.

From Hereticus by Dan Abnett.

[Black Admiral]

Annihilation Squad by Gav Thorpe gives the same height.

However, Tyrannus Maximus in Crusade For Armageddon and the Ironclad Legion's Warlords in Iron Hands were identified as 40 and 50 meters tall, respectively.

Best explanation I can think of is that there are different classes of Warlord: light (the Tyrannus Maximus type), medium (the Ironclad's Warlords), and heavy (Cruor Vult).

[DocHorror]

Perhaps there is a difference in height between the old turtle-esq Warlords and the newer, boxier Titans.

[Black Admiral]

Perhaps there is a difference in height between the old turtle-esq Warlords and the newer, boxier Titans.

I don't think so, since Tyrannus Maximus is similar in appearance and armament to Imperious Dictatio and the other newer Titans.

[DocHorror]

I don't think so, since Tyrannus Maximus is similar in appearance and armament to Imperious Dictatio and the other newer Titans.

Fair enough.

[Dark Hellion]

It is mentioned in an old Epic Codex that there are multiple classes of Warlord Titans including the Warlord Nemesis, which mounts a support missle launcher that fires Nuclear Warheads, Plasma Warheads or Vortex Missles, and a Planetary Defense laser. It is basically a baby Imperator. Scary shit with 9 void shields and a tough as a son of a bitch to take down (It probably wasn't going to die unless you hit it with a Vortex weapon of your own or a Titan Grade Chainfist).

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, you had asked about the Imperium's combined arms capability and general operational efficiency, and I thought that passage fairly relevant and just tossed it in to support my earlier statements.

Well yes.. it is useful in some fashion. The ability to coordinate dozens of rapid, coordinated assaults on a planet is pretty impressive IIRC.

[Connor MacLeod]

So, it like breaks up targets at sub atomic level or something?

Something strange like that, yes. Note however, that this does not imply that it isn't DET.

Yes, it is DET, and no, it is not breaking objects up at the subatomic level (something rather different and more drastic than merely melting or vaporizgin objects).

What the description is saying is that the weapon generates tremendous internal heating in the tarrget vessel in a fashion similar to a microwave. Microwaves of course work by generating radiation that is opaque to certain (organic) materials (metal, as Gunhead notes, wouldn't work with microwaves, nor would ceramics.) to more or less evently heat the target. Rather, the multimelta appears to use some sort of unknown radiation or force field effect to generate the heating. The "agitation" simply describes what happens when the target absorbs energy - its atomcs/molecules start to vibrate, and eventually it melts (again, in teh case of a microwave, the microwaves are absorbed by the atoms of the material being bombarded, which excites them and in turn induces the "agitation" described in the book.)

[Connor MacLeod]

So, it like breaks up targets at sub atomic level or something?

-Gunhead

It's a thermal energy weapon, firing a beam/bolt depending on setting. The higher power settings are a bolt, and lower ones seem to be beam like.

IIRC it was also described as smoething like a "flame thrower" - which might mean that it is a very low-intensity weapon relative to something like say, a lasgun (it has a larger area of effect, and the energy it releases is "spread" over that area.. or possibly volume.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm having a bit of a hard time following this "armor" discussion now, what exactly is the problem(s)?

[Connor MacLeod]

Hell, just check Connor's lasgun calcs earlier in this thread. Lasguns are utterly useless against tanks (except as demo charges if jammed in the treads), which gives a lower limit for thermal energy resistance of a Leman Russ's armour as double, possibly triple digit MJ range.

One caveat.. that *might* depend on the kind of laser here. Anything below X-ray lasers might generally be more or less effective depending on the nature and design of the material (a bright, highly reflective surface could absorb very little energy from a UV laser, for example.) (This would be an example of a "weapnos-specific:" countermeasure.) so there is possibly some "wiggle room" as to comparing lasgun resistance to other weapons. (Intensity is also an issue, but I believe this would favor the lasgun as one might expect the attack to be very "concentrated". duration might also play a role, as delivering the energy over .5 seconds is generally more effective than delivering it over say, 2 seconds.)

[Lost Soal]

I'm having a bit of a hard time following this "armor" discussion now, what exactly is the problem(s)?

The argument is over wheather Plasteel is just a lighter version of steel with the same resistance capabilities or if its so many times stronger. Unfortunately since most heavy weapons will be judged on their ability to penetrate said armour, this is a rather crucial point.

One caveat.. that *might* depend on the kind of laser here. Anything below X-ray lasers might generally be more or less effective depending on the nature and design of the material (a bright, highly reflective surface could absorb very little energy from a UV laser, for example.) (This would be an example of a "weapnos-specific:" countermeasure.) so there is possibly some "wiggle room" as to comparing lasgun resistance to other weapons. (Intensity is also an issue, but I believe this would favor the lasgun as one might expect the attack to be very "concentrated". duration might also play a role, as delivering the energy over .5 seconds is generally more effective than delivering it over say, 2 seconds.)

A Lascannon functions the same as a lasgun just with a much bigger power pack and energy release. There is zero mention of it being a diferent type of laser other that its release method, long beam instead of pulses,
Lasgun concentration is covered by the Hotshot Lasgun which expells the entire energy cell in one shot and is still virtually useless against tanks. I say virtually as snipers have been show capable of shooting through vision slits to kill crew members.