Now that says to me equally armored.
How current is Space Marine/Titan Legions sourcebook?
I mean if we use old enough fluff, imperial lasgun takes about a minute to build up a charge... <--- Space Hulk manuals.
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
-Gunhead
Moderator: NecronLord
The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
This maybe so in game mechanics. In RL however any hit to the tanks ammunition will almost always cause a catastrophic explosion that'll will kill the crew and destroy the tank. They still have nothing in the way of ammunition containment system in their tanks.JediNeophyte wrote:The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
The Ghost's tread-fethers (HEAT warheads, like all IG antitank missiles) were having minimal effectiveness at setting off the ammo stores on the Zoican, Blood Pact and Infardi tanks they were using them against, and I know for definite that the Zoicans were using standard-pattern tank designs.Gunhead wrote:Well I have to look into it more when I get back. As it stands, however, I have no reason to believe a DU round or HEAT round couldn't cook off their ammuniton quite easily.
Fair point.Their tanks also lack a spall liner, which would mean penetrations cause more fragmenting inside the tank further dangering the crew and equipment.
HESH? Don't know that one.Also makes their tanks vulnerable to HESH rounds.
-Gunhead
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I know that one.Black Admiral wrote: HESH? Don't know that one.
Yes I am well aware of these calcs. I love how they fired a GJ+ range multimelta in a cave and somehow the guardsman inside didnt get fried. This incident was discussed in detail over at SB, it was concluded that the multimelta's power in that incident was greatly exagerrated, or that guardsman have super anti-heat shielding suits and glued themselves to the floor.Black Admiral wrote:Then all the better. Multi-meltas have an upper limit in the single-double digit GJ range.
Wrong. See Connor's estimates on page 12 of this thread.
Not to mention that vaporising 12 cubic metres of ice (Caves of Ice) takes something like 20-odd GJ IIRC, and that's just for a meltagun, not a multimelta, which is distinctly more powerful.
Also, as a random note, a Leman Russ Demolisher can survive a hit to the turret from a multimelta. However, I wouldn't recommend trying to fire the main gun afterwards.
Not comprehending the difference between an energy beam and a bomb then. And furthermore, exaggeration doesn't work, especially given that Cain's typically precise about IoM weapon's effects. Oh, and disregarding stated numbers because they don't produce results you happen to like is fucking retarded.gamesguy wrote:Yes I am well aware of these calcs. I love how they fired a GJ+ range multimelta in a cave and somehow the guardsman inside didnt get fried. This incident was discussed in detail over at SB, it was concluded that the multimelta's power in that incident was greatly exagerrated, or that guardsman have super anti-heat shielding suits and glued themselves to the floor.
A Terminator, more than likely, normal SM, not without some serious extenuating circumstances.Even if we were to use the 20 GJ for a melta gun, are you saying a terminator, or a SM, can survive a hit from a melta gun?
As the guy who made said calculations, I order you to provide a valid alternate explanation for an explicit vapourisation of a dozen cubic meters of ice or to shut your hole. Yes, it's rediculous, but no more rediculous than 200 gigaton turbolasers.gamesguy wrote:Yes I am well aware of these calcs. I love how they fired a GJ+ range multimelta in a cave and somehow the guardsman inside didnt get fried. This incident was discussed in detail over at SB, it was concluded that the multimelta's power in that incident was greatly exagerrated, or that guardsman have super anti-heat shielding suits and glued themselves to the floor.
Even if we were to use the 20 GJ for a melta gun, are you saying a terminator, or a SM, can survive a hit from a melta gun?
So, if in game terms, a tank is harder to destroy... then it must have more effective armor in "real life," neh?Gunhead wrote:This maybe so in game mechanics. In RL however any hit to the tanks ammunition will almost always cause a catastrophic explosion that'll will kill the crew and destroy the tank. They still have nothing in the way of ammunition containment system in their tanks.JediNeophyte wrote:The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
Please don't try to use game mechanics to judge armour thickness as the concept is flawed. Due to the method used to penetrate in game the values cannot be made any bigger or else they would dominate the game and be virtually impossible to kil. While similar instances can occur in RL, (Panzers V and VI were next to useless against the T38) such game altering effects cannot be created as it would destroy the game and have to be removed, e.g. Virus Outbreak Strategy Card. Structure points were brought in to acount for extra thickness and compartmentalisation.Gunhead wrote:This maybe so in game mechanics. In RL however any hit to the tanks ammunition will almost always cause a catastrophic explosion that'll will kill the crew and destroy the tank. They still have nothing in the way of ammunition containment system in their tanks.JediNeophyte wrote:The latter two also have multiple structure points, unlike the former, and are significantly harder to destroy or even appreciably damage.Imperial armor sourcebook, and the update, doesn't give saves. It talks about all facings having an armour value. Land raider, Leman Russ, All the supers and the warhound titan, have a front armour rating of 14. Which is roughly 400mm of conventional steel.
Don't know how vulnerable their lasgun capacitators, or capacitators in general, are to battle damage.
-Gunhead
That makes some sense for armor values lower than 14, for which it is possible to adjust game stats to fit the vehicle. The problem arises at AV14, which is the largest value supported by the game. If a tank had armor twice as good as a Land Raider's its game stats would still be AV14 because the game engine doesn't allow anything higher. GW gets around this limitation using special rules like the Monolith's living metal and superheavy structure points, which you are simply ignoring.Gunhead wrote:I wasn't using game mechanics to calculate anything. I just pointed out that said mechanics can be used to determine is x more powerful than y. Also, since all said vehicles have exactly the same armor value in game, they should have about equal amounts of effective armour. Or that the differences are so small that they don't affect in game numbers.
Well, they most likely have that against thermal energy (a Leman Russ Demolisher survived a multimelta hit to the turret in Storm of Iron; I can grab the quote if you need it).Gunhead wrote:When I see something to suggest greater armor protection than 400mm I'll review my estimates.
-Gunhead
This is a reasonable stance to take. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can't fault your reasoning. However, here's a bit more data, again from Armies of the Imperium.Gunhead wrote:That living metal thing is something I haven't heard about before, as to the structure points read my previous post were I responded to Currald.
When I see something to suggest greater armor protection than 400mm I'll review my estimates.
-Gunhead
The above quotes explicitely discuss such things as armor thickness. I don't think that your interpretation of game mechanics overrides something like this for the reasons given by Raxmel. The game mechanics break down above AR14.Because of its extra-ordinary armour the Shadow Sword has an armour saveing throw of 1 or more on a D6.... The Baneblade is just as slow and ponderous as the Shadow Sword, and has the same thick armour and saving roll.... The Storm Hammer is one of the three types of Imperial super heavy tank and is just as well armoured as the Shadow Sword and the Baneblade.... Because of its very thick and efficient armour the Leviathan has an armour saving throw of 1 on a D6. This applies all the way round including the sides and rear, so attackers do not get the usualy bonus for side and rear shots.... Because of its very thick and efficient armour the Capitol Imperialis has an armour saving throw of 1 on a D6. This applies all the way round including the sides and rear...
Multi-GJ range, minimal, maybe in the TJ range.Gunhead wrote:How much energy multimelta delivers? That's what really matters.
-Gunhead
This thread has been repeatedly mentioned. The final total counting both latent heats and 100 kelvins worth of temperature change is some 33 gigajoules, though that's just a meltagun. A multi-melta is, as the name implies, bigger and more powerful than a meltagun.Gunhead wrote:How much energy multimelta delivers? That's what really matters.
-Gunhead