Empire and Imperium (Asimov/40k)

[Lord Zentei]

There is often a mention of "adamantium" which might imply that it is held in some kind of solid lattice (or more likely, the writers haven't a clue as to what they are writing, but that's another story..).

The adamantium, whatever it is, seems to be the standard. Proper neutronium components are very rare, stuff from the Dark Age of Tech, really.

That was my impression also.

Had the Empire planet shattering been valid, that would point to 5e16 Mt, whereas descriptions in the SM codex imply BDZ level firepower for the Battlebarge (to wit: "capable of razing an entire planet to a barren lifeless wasteland" - actually, this is less than the full 3x ISD type BDZ which can melt the crust) or around 1e10 Mt from the Planet Killers page on the main site, hence my earlier assessment.

40K has this problem of new writers seeming to want to have their stuff more 'epic' than old writers. Hence absurdities like planet shattering barrages (Abaddon's thinking he looks really stupid now) from fleets or even individual ships, or space marines jumping out of low flying planes without 'chutes, and dusting themselves off after hitting the ground.

Quite. What they really need is a Dr Saxton, an ICS and a more draconian quality control committee that references it.

[Lord Zentei]

(Abaddon's thinking he looks really stupid now)

Not the first time. Probably won't be the last time either.

[Gunhead]

There are Holy Worlds, Shrine Worlds, Holy cities and in some cases whole clusters with religious significance scattered throughout the Imperium. You also have thousands to millions of ordinary people travelling to these places and engaging in Pilgramage's to these places completely unforced by the Ecclasiarchy. Many of these places cost money simply to enter, yet they continue to come for reasons of faith and to be blessed. In the case of the Sabbat World's, there was Pilgrimage's going on during the Crusade itself.

I think its safe to say the Imperial Religion holds strong.

Even if it's thousands to millions a day, it would still be an insignifanct percentage of the population. Which is just as well, as very few people in the imperium have access to space travel (even fewer if talking about warp travel). If these pilgrimages are not supervised and controlled by the ecclasiarchy, the pilgrims could just us well paint a bullseye to their foreheads and carry a sign "Corrupt me".

Imperial religion is open to abuse like a two dollar whore.

-Gunhead

[Lancer]

(Abaddon's thinking he looks really stupid now)

Not the first time. Probably won't be the last time either.

He's a bloody moron to begin with. I can't wait for one of his Chaos Marines to rip off it's face and slip a warscythe into his back.

[NecronLord]

He's a bloody moron to begin with. I can't wait for one of his Chaos Marines to rip off it's face and slip a warscythe into his back.

Just like communists in the 1950s, we are everywhere. Under every bed and behind every door.

[Murazor]

Given that some of them have neutronium prows hundreds of meters wide*. Yes, you can argue up all sorts of absurd mass figures for them. Anyway, could you please present me with quotes for the firepower of Empire ships?

Yes, I can more or less, but I foresee that they aren't going to be enough.

To quote myself, "there is some very compelling evidence supporting this idea [that the Wienis has planet-killing levels of firepower] in the books, but nothing definitive."

Now, on with the quotes:

"It's a ship! They could build in those days. Its cubic capacity is half again that of the entire Anacreonian navy. It's got nuclear blasts capable of blowing up a planet, and a shield that could take a Q-beam without working up radiation. Too much of a good thing, Hardin --"

From Foundation/The Mayors

"You wouldn't dare, you little pug-dog. My father would pulverize your toy nation to meteoric dust. In fact, he might do it in any case, if I told him you were treating with these barbarians."

From Foundation and Empire/The Merchant Princes

"Destroy them? Oh, no. Half a planet would be wiped out before the smallest power station would be touched. They are irreplaceable and the suppliers of the strength of the fleet." Almost proudly, "We have the largest and best on this side of Trantor itself."

From Foundation/The Merchant Princes

"But one – just one – can blast that Foundation into stinking rubble. Just one! One, to sweep their little pygmy boats out of space."

From Foundation/The Merchant Princes

"It's about the same thing. You surrendered your ship when you might have decided to waste our ammunition and have yourself blown to electron-dust. It could result in good treatment for you, if you continue that sort of outlook on life."

From Foundation and Empire/The General (5)

The tiny ships had appeared out of the vacant depths and darted into the midst of the Armada. Without a shot or a burst of energy, they weaved through the ship-swollen area, then blasted on and out, while the Imperial wagons turned after them like lumbering beasts. There were two noiseless flares that pinpointed space as two of the tiny gnats shriveled in atomic disintegration, and the rest were gone.

From Foundation and Empire/The General (6)

"The Mule! His men, at least. He took it last month, and without a battle, though Kalgan's warlord broadcast a threat to blow the planet to ionic dust before giving it up."

From Foundation and Empire/The Mule (11)

"And who has not?" Magnifico's voice was a mysterious whisper. "There are those who say it is a world of great magic, of fires that can consume planets, and secrets of mighty strength. They say that not the highest nobility of the Galaxy could achieve the honor and deference considered only the natural due of a simple man who could say 'I am a citizen of the Foundation,' – were he only a salvage miner of space, or a nothing like myself."

From Foundation and Empire/The Mule (14)

"My ships were launched against Tazenda twelve hours ago and they are quite, quite through with their mission. Tazenda is laid in ruins; its centers of population are wiped out. There was no resistance. The Second Foundation no longer exists, Channis – and I, the queer, ugly weakling, am the ruler of the Galaxy."
[...]
"Have I calculated rightly, Channis? Have I outwitted your men of the Second Foundation? Tazenda is destroyed, Channis, tremendously destroyed; so why is your despair pretense? Where is the reality? I must have reality and truth! Talk, Channis talk. Have I penetrated then, not deeply enough? Does the danger still exist? Talk, Channis. Where have I done wrong?"
[...]
"Your emotions are, of course," said the First Speaker, "only the children of your background and are not to be condemned – merely changed. The destruction of Tazenda was unavoidable. The alternative would have been a much greater destruction generally throughout the Galaxy over a period of centuries. We did our best in our limited way. We withdrew as many men from Tazenda as we could. We decentralized the rest of the world. Unfortunately, our measures were of necessity far from adequate. It left many millions to die – do you not regret that?"
"Not at all – any more than I regret the hundred thousand that must die on Rossem in not more than six hours."
[...]
"Do you really wonder? Do you really find it difficult to penetrate the obvious? All this time that you have preached to me of the nature of emotional contact – all this time that you have been throwing words such as megalomania and paranoia at me, I have been working. I have been in contact with my Fleet and it has its orders. In six hours, unless I should for some reason counteract my orders, they are to bombard all of Rossem except this lone village and an area of a hundred square miles about it. They are to do a thorough job and are then to land here."

[Murazor]

Also, I have made several attempts to quantify Imperial power generation technology.

My oldest try. Oddly enough, you were the only one who replied that thread.

My "Anacreonian" try. With multiple possible figures to be in the safe side.

My last try.

BTW, combination of the power intensities calculated in the "last try" with the estimated mass figures of the "Anacreonian" try, I get results that go from a low end of 2E19 watts to 2E25 watts for the "average iron density" calculation.

There is also the statement appearing in older editions of Foundation, where the Imperial ambassador in Foundation states that an exploding power plant caused widespread destruction that affected at least half a planet. However, this part has been removed from newer editions and I am not certain of its validity.

However, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. If I am to accept planet destroying levels of firepower for IoM warships, thus negating almost every single piece of evidence ever written about 40k firepower, I will need to read the relevant quotes first.

[Lord Zentei]

I'd sift through that and try to verify it if I had my damn books, since I am interested in quantifying the Foundation also.

Sucks to live in a micro apartment with no space. <grr>

[NecronLord]

See, the thing with most of those is that they could reffer to 'blasting the Foundation to rubble' and even 'to meteoric dust' would indicate just that a bombardment would create mass quantities of ejecta. There's nothing really difinative there.

However, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. If I am to accept planet destroying levels of firepower for IoM warships, thus negating almost every single piece of evidence ever written about 40k firepower, I will need to read the relevant quotes first.

Righto. The *Shudder* one from Dawn of War: Ascension is as follows.

The last of the Dirge Raiders spiralled down into the atmosphere of Rahe's Paradise, flames pouring from its engine vents and armoured plates free falling from its hull. Beneath its fall, the planet's surface was vaguely visible beneath clouds of toxic smoke and viral contagions that roiled around in the atmosphere. The Exterminatus arrays had caused all the volcanos around the equator to erupt at once, spilling the planet's core out onto its surface and effectively turning the entire world inside out. For good measure, the epic bombardment had continued, throwing viral and bacterial agents down into the mix to ensure that nothing could survive, even if it could swim in molten rock and breathe sulphur. In a matter of minutes, the atmosphere had been completely eaten away and then, in less than an hour, the planet's structural integrity collapsed and it simply fell apart, scattering itself into asteroids and meteorites.

Obviously this shows shocking ignorance of geology, and I could take it out this way and that for Goto's flaccid prose, but I'd rather just let you read it, as I have every confidence the audience here doesn't need me to tell it why that's rediculous writing. Worse, further down the page, is

It would, in any case, be only a matter of days before the local star would collapse in on itself and turn supernova. The necron lord had destabilised it enough, even in that short period of exposure.

Black Library: CS Goto makes Baby Nightbring cry!

But the disaster did not stop there. Emboldened by his bloody triumph, Qux sent out his warships, and pursued to destruction the fleet components that had brought the hapless Onator, and his mechanicus allies, to Parthenope. This massive clash of mainline vessels, the third largest single fleet engagement of the campaign to date, resulted in total victory for the Ruinous Powers, and created the vast Antioch debris field, a memorial to the weakness of overconfidence.

Now, as you can see, it appears I've misremembered this. However, in my defence, this debris field does, on the map, cover an area that must be around a light year across, and it is accompanied on the next page by an image, seen from orbit of the planet of a nearby star system, of some titanic explosion, captioned "Vast stellar destruction, visible from orbit over Quirce, marks the creation of the Antioch debris field."

This does seem to suggest the catastrophic dissemination of some stellar object, but I must concede, it's not the planet-blasting I had thought it to be.

[Murazor]

See, the thing with most of those is that they could reffer to 'blasting the Foundation to rubble' and even 'to meteoric dust' would indicate just that a bombardment would create mass quantities of ejecta. There's nothing really difinative there.

Agreed. That's the disclaimer I put almost everywhere I mention Imperial firepower. There is a fairly strong case for power generation figures in the 1E20+ watts, but only casual references and second hand mentions of planet killing. It is not a completely baseless claim, but it isn't one that can be proven (at least for the moment). In the end, the biggest weapons that can be easily calculated in the entire Foundationverse are the 200 GJ non nuclear bombs carried by Imperial atmospheric fighters in Peeble in the Sky.

The last of the Dirge Raiders spiralled down into the atmosphere of Rahe's Paradise, flames pouring from its engine vents and armoured plates free falling from its hull. Beneath its fall, the planet's surface was vaguely visible beneath clouds of toxic smoke and viral contagions that roiled around in the atmosphere. The Exterminatus arrays had caused all the volcanos around the equator to erupt at once, spilling the planet's core out onto its surface and effectively turning the entire world inside out. For good measure, the epic bombardment had continued, throwing viral and bacterial agents down into the mix to ensure that nothing could survive, even if it could swim in molten rock and breathe sulphur. In a matter of minutes, the atmosphere had been completely eaten away and then, in less than an hour, the planet's structural integrity collapsed and it simply fell apart, scattering itself into asteroids and meteorites.

Planetary destruction, indeed. It is, however, a rather strange description and there are the geological oddities you mention. IIRC, the IoM had chain reaction planet killers (cyclonic warheads or something) and a similar weapon is probably a best explanation for this than power generation figures that invalidate about everything else. Otherwise, the Blackstones and Abbadons Planet Killer wouldn't be such a big deal.

It would, in any case, be only a matter of days before the local star would collapse in on itself and turn supernova. The necron lord had destabilised it enough, even in that short period of exposure.

Necron tech is something like >>>>>>>> Imperium tech, unless I am mistaken. Was this the personal handiwork of a C'tan, standard Necron grunts, weird technobabble or plain old DET? At any rate, this is something the Empire can match, more or less.

Crimson flares. Nova triggers. Once used, these made war far more dangerous.
A solar system could be “cleansed”--a horrifyingly bland term used by ancient aggressors--by inducing a mild nova burst in a balmy sun. This roasted worlds just enough to kill all but those who could swiftly find caverns and store food for the few years of the nova stage.

From Foundation and Chaos/VIII-The Eternals (13).

Now, as you can see, it appears I've misremembered this. However, in my defence, this debris field does, on the map, cover an area that must be around a light year across, and it is accompanied on the next page by an image, seen from orbit of the planet of a nearby star system, of some titanic explosion, captioned "Vast stellar destruction, visible from orbit over Quirce, marks the creation of the Antioch debris field."

This does seem to suggest the catastrophic dissemination of some stellar object, but I must concede, it's not the planet-blasting I had thought it to be.

Fair enough, but you will admit that we can't draw conclusions from this. We don't know what was destroyed, there was a whole fleet involved and we don't know if there was something weird involved (I'm thinking along the lines of a Ceres like asteroid prepared by Chaos to ambush the Imperium forces). What is the apparent size of that explosion? A nova cannon was IIRC a multipetaton explosive. That should create a large enough flash to match the local star for a split second.

[NecronLord]

IIRC, the IoM had chain reaction planet killers (cyclonic warheads or something) and a similar weapon is probably a best explanation for this than power generation figures that invalidate about everything else. Otherwise, the Blackstones and Abbadons Planet Killer wouldn't be such a big deal.

They're not a big deal. There's some bizzare chain reaction crap going down there, too. Of course, I'm seriously doubting that Asmiov's Empire could blast a planet apart without technobabble, when a hundred years later, the rediscovery of fission power was a big deal.

Necron tech is something like >>>>>>>> Imperium tech, unless I am mistaken. Was this the personal handiwork of a C'tan, standard Necron grunts, weird technobabble or plain old DET? At any rate, this is something the Empire can match, more or less.

'Necron Lord' aside, it's implied to be an unknown fifth C'tan or possibly the Outsider, aboard a necron light cruiser that did it. Method incomprehensible.

Crimson flares. Nova triggers. Once used, these made war far more dangerous.
A solar system could be “cleansed”--a horrifyingly bland term used by ancient aggressors--by inducing a mild nova burst in a balmy sun. This roasted worlds just enough to kill all but those who could swiftly find caverns and store food for the few years of the nova stage.

From Foundation and Chaos/VIII-The Eternals (13).

Hardly. The sun of Rahe's paradise was blasted apart. That's many many orders of magnitude beyond what's described there. That is really nothing on the order of necron solar destruction.

Fair enough, but you will admit that we can't draw conclusions from this. We don't know what was destroyed, there was a whole fleet involved and we don't know if there was something weird involved (I'm thinking along the lines of a Ceres like asteroid prepared by Chaos to ambush the Imperium forces). What is the apparent size of that explosion? A nova cannon was IIRC a multipetaton explosive. That should create a large enough flash to match the local star for a split second.

Well, in a neighboring star system it looks moon-sized, but there's some bizzare stuff (technical term: seriously weird shit) going down in that explosion. You'd have to see it really. There's plumes of ejecta coming out, and so on.

Basically, the artist got to play with photoshop too much.

[Connor MacLeod]

It is quite possible the 40K "world shattering" is at less than escape velocity for fleets and the like (depending on the weapon and duration) - something like the supposed "cracking" of planets by the VPK.

[Murazor]

They're not a big deal. There's some bizzare chain reaction crap going down there, too. Of course, I'm seriously doubting that Asmiov's Empire could blast a planet apart without technobabble, when a hundred years later, the rediscovery of fission power was a big deal.

When more advanced forms of energy production failed, Anacreon had to use chemical energy because they didn't have the know how or the industry to create an atomic economy to replace the Imperial. Also, as mentioned above, the Fall was engineered by Daneel. If you want proof, I offer you Exhibit A.

Hari nodded. “I never thought of it quite in that way before. But then again, I’m not the one doing the toppling.” He glanced toward Daneel. “This is all about human volition, isn’t it? It’s all about that day, in five centuries or so, when a choice must be made by a man who is never wrong. When that day comes, there must not be a galactic bureaucracy anymore. No cubicles and dusty offices to burst forth with surprise meddlers, like Horis and his friends. No prim procedures to make sure every decision is deliberated openly.
“The Fall of Trantor isn’t really about chaos, is it, Daneel? It is about killing your own fine invention, the Grey Order, the only way it can be killed, by total destruction of the filing cabinets, the computer memories, the men...”
This time, R. Daneel Olivaw didn’t answer. The expression on his face sufficed. If any human ever doubted that an immortal robot could feel pain, all question would be erased by looking at Daneel’s Promethean visage.

From Foundation's Triumph/Full Circle (9)

'Necron Lord' aside, it's implied to be an unknown fifth C'tan or possibly the Outsider, aboard a necron light cruiser that did it. Method incomprehensible.

All right.

Hardly. The sun of Rahe's paradise was blasted apart. That's many many orders of magnitude beyond what's described there. That is really nothing on the order of necron solar destruction.

More along the lines of Robot solar destruction, then. Foundation's Triumph mentions a number of extremely suspicious supernovae appearing ahead of the Settler waves:

“Yes, yes! You see, Professor, tilling is not quite as universal a phenomenon as might at first appear! In my long experience as an inspector, visiting more worlds than I could count, I have found irregularities. Planets where the plains and valleys have much coarser consistencies, far more varied, with no trace of the sifting or recent heating that we find in most lowlands. Out of interest--more as a hobby or pastime than anything else--I began listing other unusual traits on these planets...such as the existence of large numbers of genetically unusual beasts. In several cases, there were signs that a supernova had gone off in the region, sometime in the last thirty thousand years. One planet has a fantastic amount of ambient radioactivity in its crust, while several others have a multitude of fused metal mounds scattered allover their surface. I began charting these anomalies, and found that they clustered along great sweeping bands...”

Well, in a neighboring star system it looks moon-sized, but there's some bizzare stuff (technical term: seriously weird shit) going down in that explosion. You'd have to see it really. There's plumes of ejecta coming out, and so on.

Basically, the artist got to play with photoshop too much.

Ok. An explosion that large should have wiped out everything in the "neighbouring star system" and I don't have idea of just how big a boom we are dealing with, but it is beyond fucking big.

[Lord Zentei]

It is quite possible the 40K "world shattering" is at less than escape velocity for fleets and the like (depending on the weapon and duration) - something like the supposed "cracking" of planets by the VPK.

Unfortunately, the text runs as follows:

In a matter of minutes, the atmosphere had been completely eaten away and then, in less than an hour, the planet's structural integrity collapsed and it simply fell apart, scattering itself into asteroids and meteorites.

Emphasis on "scattering". And as though planets were dependant on "structural integrity" as opposed to being molten/semi molten balls of iron and rock held together by gravity.

[NecronLord]

More along the lines of Robot solar destruction, then. Foundation's Triumph mentions a number of extremely suspicious supernovae appearing ahead of the Settler waves:

I really see no reason to assume that, even if they did manage to create a ""supernova"" the effect was even remotely comparable to the C'tan in Goto's little wankfest, which is by the sun for a few seconds to a few minutes, and manages to cause it to explode a few days later.

In any case, if we could get back to the point. What's the lower limits of the Empire's FTL speed, weapons power, and numbers?

[NecronLord]

Emphasis on "scattering". And as though planets were dependant on "structural integrity" as opposed to being molten/semi molten balls of iron and rock held together by gravity.

He's got a fair point. It could be raised to a higher energy state without exceeding GBE. It could be fragmented and scattered to occupy a few times its original volume without exceeding GBE. That would fit quite closely with Goto's description.

[Lord Zentei]

Emphasis on "scattering". And as though planets were dependant on "structural integrity" as opposed to being molten/semi molten balls of iron and rock held together by gravity.

He's got a fair point. It could be raised to a higher energy state without exceeding GBE. It could be fragmented and scattered to occupy a few times its original volume without exceeding GBE. That would fit quite closely with Goto's description.

Scattering a planet to a few times its original volume would still require energy pretty close to that of escape velocity.

Since gravitational potential energy is -GMm/r, raising any given test mass to twice its distance from the total center of mass requires energy equal to that required moving it fom that position to escape velocity, unless I'm much mistaken.

[Lost Soal]

Here are scans of the images for the Antioch debris field.

First the star chart

Next the stellar explosion

[Lancer]

He's a bloody moron to begin with. I can't wait for one of his Chaos Marines to rip off it's face and slip a warscythe into his back.

Just like communists in the 1950s, we are everywhere. Under every bed and behind every door.

They infiltrated the Inquisition easily enough, an organization where just blinking the wrong way can get you tortured to the brink of death, nursed back to health, then tortured all over again.

And you know as well as I do that the Deciever was generously stacking the odds in Abbadons favor to get the Talismans of Vaul out of the equation.

[Murazor]

I really see no reason to assume that, even if they did manage to create a ""supernova"" the effect was even remotely comparable to the C'tan in Goto's little wankfest, which is by the sun for a few seconds to a few minutes, and manages to cause it to explode a few days later.

A trail of supernovas moving ahead of the human colonizers that happens to wipe out alien civilizations is no reason? But I concede the point about the timeframe, we just don't know how long they need to trigger a supernova (or if they can force main sequence stars to go supernova).

In any case, if we could get back to the point. What's the lower limits of the Empire's FTL speed, weapons power, and numbers?

I already posted all we know about numbers: Trantor's home fleet was in the tens of thousands at some point. In Riose's time, the Imperial fleet (not including the private fleets of Viceroys and the nobility, that most certainly existed) might have numbered from the tens of thousands of "ships-of-the-line" (low end) to the hundreds of millions. The industrial analysis suggests that they can produce several hundreds of thousands of warships a year at their worst.

FTL speed is somewhat easier. We have this quote:

"Do you realize what this means, Janov?" he said. "Every ship I've ever been in-or heard of-would have made those jumps with at least a day in between for painstaking calculation and re-checking, even with a computer. The trip would have taken nearly a month.
"Or perhaps two or three weeks, if they were willing to be reckless about it. We did it in half an hour. When every ship is equipped with a computer like this one-"
[...]
Gendibal said, "Not only has this Trevize moved in an unexpected direction, but at an unprecedented speed. My information, which the First Speaker does not yet have, is that he has traveled nearly ten thousand parsecs in well under an hour."

From Foundation's Edge.

The Far Star II can travel through hyperspace at speeds in excess of 280,000,000 c, but it is a Foundation ship and an almost prototype one at that. Imperial ships would fall in the "month" or "two or three weeks" category, suggesting ~400,000 c for safe travel and roughly twice that for "reckless travel". In the other hand, we have this.

He took out a pocket informer and displayed the route to Dors. Four Jumps, over 10,000 light-years, to Kalgan, a world of pleasure and entertainment for the Galaxy’s elite, where they (so the informer said) would drop off Klia and Brann. Then, thirty-seven individual Jumps, 60,000 light-years to Eos, where Lodovik would disembark with the robots and the head of Giskard.

From Foundation and Chaos.

Considering that the Jump itself takes exactly zero time and that the average time for verification is of a day, with a precalculated route you can apparently reach speeds of ~900,000 c. The route to Eos (~600,000 c) is probably so complicated because it is the supersecret robot moonbase. Also, if you put enough effort into calculating the Jump and you have accurate information, it is possible to achieve pin-point accuracy, as proven by the hypermissiles Earth was going to use against all other planets in the Empire. They have real-time communications between the Galactic Core and the Periphery and most ships have some kind of FTL communications (although Lathan Devers' had a limited range of 500 light years, IIRC).

[Murazor]

Next the stellar explosion
[/img]

I know what happened. The Excession decided to pay a visit!

Now, more seriously, that thing is no normal explosion that can be calculated. This could be some kind of massive Warp insertion, Nurgle's almighty fart or a bug splattered againt the camera lens.

[Murazor]

Edit. I didn't want to quote Lost Soal's image. If it is too big a nuisance, can the mods please remove that part of the post?

[NecronLord]

Done. FTL is definately somewhat superior. 400,000 C isn't far beyond Warp travel, though most ships are limited to around 100,000 or slightly above.

The Asimov Imperial Fleet low end is smaller than the IoM fleet, and its high end, far bigger (assuming all those are capital ships of kilometer plus size, anyway) than its rival.

[Lord Zentei]

* Assuming 100m * 100m * 10m (it's all depenant on how we scale the ships, which is a serious bugbear for 40K analysis, that should be around 4e22 Kg, over half the mass of the moon.

I just realized: with a 50 meter radius and 4e22 kg mass, that prow should have a surface gravity of on the order of 1e8 gees. Not exactly practical for firing torpedoes from.

[NecronLord]

I just realized: with a 50 meter radius and 4e22 kg mass, that prow should have a surface gravity of on the order of 1e8 gees. Not exactly practical for firing torpedoes from.

Well, that ship was meant to be atypical. For all I know, it slingshots torpedos around its prow!