SG1-RPG Tollan Power and planetary destruction.

[NecronLord]

Am I the only one who thinks that ggs doesn't know the difference between DET and conservation of momentum? Especially given all the inertial dampening tech the goa'uld have access to, it's an important distinction.

[Winston Blake]

In reality, its just that the extra didn't have a clue WHEN TO FALL DOWN.

In this case it looks like they are jerking the extra up and back and then stopping with a wire.

They use this effect for the hand devices slam person into wall effect. And that is clearly a non-DET effect.

Another example of mistimed effects is Teal'c shooting Siler in Heroes and it takes like a 1/4 of a second after the bolt hits for Siler to be obviously pulled up and back by a wire. I'm inclined to call these isolated examples dismissable FX gaffes, but still, they're so blatant.

I mean a salvo of those bolts went right through a 2-3 CM thick wooden door and THEN through the body of poor Lt Glen and kept on going.

We have also seen staff blasts boil off 2-3 fist sized chucks out of the concret walls of the SGC, and not even baddly scorch tree trunks(case in point targetting practice on a suspended tree log..)

Well, just like practically every other show/movie, we can say its a matter of power settings. I remember reading somewhere (SGTC?) that when staffs are set to 'high-rate-of-fire' each of those bolts is weaker than semi-auto mode. In the Movie staff weapons definitely had variable firepower.

[Xon]

Am I the only one who thinks that ggs doesn't know the difference between DET and conservation of momentum? Especially given all the inertial dampening tech the goa'uld have access to, it's an important distinction.

Yes, my mistake. Normally non-DET is the label chucked at anything which has weird effects, which staff weapons IMO fall under.

you are corerct that giving the finger to CoM doesnt mean the weapons arnt DET.

[NecronLord]

Yep. The Goa'uld have clearly inherited some of the Four Races mastery of inertial compensators. For example, the considerably KE of staff weapons bounces off personal shields with no effect.

[Xon]

Yep. The Goa'uld have clearly inherited some of the Four Races mastery of inertial compensators. For example, the considerably KE of staff weapons bounces off personal shields with no effect.

Their shields can also do selective filtering of light frequencies too, as well as inhibit timedilation effects and gravity...

[Connor MacLeod]

Yep. The Goa'uld have clearly inherited some of the Four Races mastery of inertial compensators. For example, the considerably KE of staff weapons bounces off personal shields with no effect.

Just because the staff exhibits recoil does not neccesarily mean the projectile itself has substantial recoil as well.

Further, Inertial compensation/damping is something rather distinctly different from recoil compensation/damping. Inertial dampers work by matching the accelerations of a ship and accelerating all masses (such as the living beings) at that same rate so as to feel little or no ill effects (like an aircraft pilot feels in high-gee turns.) Recoil compensation/damping (like in the discharge of a weapon, say a turbolaser or a blaster) of the kind you apparently are thinking of involves the transfer of the momentum into something else (preferrably something larger) , either by bracings or some sort of forcefield tech (tractor beam, repulsor etc.).

[SCVN 2812]

Even if its less than 40%, if the 200 megaton heavy gun figure is to be believed, thermal or kinetic in nature, the point defense guns in Homecomming should have caused substantial damage to the area.

Depends on how the energy is delivered. A fairly concentrated/narrow/penetrating blast might melt/vaporize/drill a deep/wide hole in the surface without neccearily causing a crater (depending on yield.)

A good point, the battle could even have exasperated the naquadria problem if the shots were capable of penetrating the surface. We do know from Descent that motherships that have just gone through re-entry with Anubis' shields online can survive at ocean depths only survivable by emergency rescue vehicles. This would place an extremely vague minimum on the hull strength of Goa'uld motherships.

Though earlier scenes of bombardment in season 2 or 3 by mothership weapons left craters only a few meters across and not particularly deep. Can't cite the name, it was the one where Apophis escapes from Sokar and asks for aslyum from Earth.

[Connor MacLeod]

A good point, the battle could even have exasperated the naquadria problem if the shots were capable of penetrating the surface. We do know from Descent that motherships that have just gone through re-entry with Anubis' shields online can survive at ocean depths only survivable by emergency rescue vehicles. This would place an extremely vague minimum on the hull strength of Goa'uld motherships.

That wasn't my point. You could have a very penetrating "cutting/piercing" type energy weapon with a fairly high energy output and no huge craters or even a noticable hole (depending on height/distance of observation.) or much in the way of side effects. What effects we DO see depends HEAVILY on how the energy is delivered as well as the enviroment in question (this is why a sustained delivery of energy is different from a brief "all-at once" delivery, and why bombs and energy beams would not neccesarily produce precisely the same effects.)

As for any Naquidah deposits, is there any evidence for completely uniform distribution of Naquidah throughout the crust of a planet? If not (and I'm betting not, such a uniform "all encompassing" distribution would be highly coincidental.) the shot could bypass such deposits without interacting with them.

Though earlier scenes of bombardment in season 2 or 3 by mothership weapons left craters only a few meters across and not particularly deep. Can't cite the name, it was the one where Apophis escapes from Sokar and asks for aslyum from Earth.

How do you know the size of the craters, perchance? And what was the point of the "bombardment?"

[Xon]

Just because the staff exhibits recoil does not neccesarily mean the projectile itself has substantial recoil as well.

The recoil you can observe when the staff weapons are being fired is completely out of proportion with the finall effect.

Further, Inertial compensation/damping is something rather distinctly different from recoil compensation/damping. Inertial dampers work by matching the accelerations of a ship and accelerating all masses (such as the living beings) at that same rate so as to feel little or no ill effects (like an aircraft pilot feels in high-gee turns.) Recoil compensation/damping (like in the discharge of a weapon, say a turbolaser or a blaster) of the kind you apparently are thinking of involves the transfer of the momentum into something else (preferrably something larger) , either by bracings or some sort of forcefield tech (tractor beam, repulsor etc.).

Fine-grain enough inertial compensation/damping can be used as recoil compensation/damping. They both do exactly the same thing, just a matter of scale.

Aircraft fly based on the recoil from the engine thrust, and we know the X-302 has inertial dampers.

[Connor MacLeod]

The recoil you can observe when the staff weapons are being fired is completely out of proportion with the finall effect.

The same is true of SW blasters. Do you know why?

Fine-grain enough inertial compensation/damping can be used as recoil compensation/damping. They both do exactly the same thing, just a matter of scale.

No its not. Inertial dampers are mounted on starships and are meant to prevent the side effects of massive acceleration by matching the acceleration of the crew (And other objects like personal belongings) to the acceleration of the ship. The dampers are not moving the ship itself (nor could they - what do you expect the dampers to be pushing against in order to move the ship?)

Aircraft fly based on the recoil from the engine thrust, and we know the X-302 has inertial dampers.

Inertial dampers aren't thrusters. WHat the hell are the inerttial dampers supposed to push against exactly (or to be braced against, ,more specifically)

[SCVN 2812]

A good point, the battle could even have exasperated the naquadria problem if the shots were capable of penetrating the surface. We do know from Descent that motherships that have just gone through re-entry with Anubis' shields online can survive at ocean depths only survivable by emergency rescue vehicles. This would place an extremely vague minimum on the hull strength of Goa'uld motherships.

That wasn't my point. You could have a very penetrating "cutting/piercing" type energy weapon with a fairly high energy output and no huge craters or even a noticable hole (depending on height/distance of observation.) or much in the way of side effects. What effects we DO see depends HEAVILY on how the energy is delivered as well as the enviroment in question (this is why a sustained delivery of energy is different from a brief "all-at once" delivery, and why bombs and energy beams would not neccesarily produce precisely the same effects.)

I'm aware of that, I was just exploring a possible side effect to that.

As for any Naquidah deposits, is there any evidence for completely uniform distribution of Naquidah throughout the crust of a planet? If not (and I'm betting not, such a uniform "all encompassing" distribution would be highly coincidental.) the shot could bypass such deposits without interacting with them.

Very possible. The location of the naquadria mines relative to the city is not firmly established iirc.

Though earlier scenes of bombardment in season 2 or 3 by mothership weapons left craters only a few meters across and not particularly deep. Can't cite the name, it was the one where Apophis escapes from Sokar and asks for aslyum from Earth.

How do you know the size of the craters, perchance? And what was the point of the "bombardment?"

Because they are plainly visible as after effects of the bombardment. And the point was the prevention of Apophis from escaping. Not the best example seeing as Death Gliders are vulnerable to well placed stinger missiles.

[Connor MacLeod]

How do you know the size of the craters, perchance? And what was the point of the "bombardment?"

Because they are plainly visible as after effects of the bombardment.

No, I mean what is the scaling reference used to determine their size.

And the point was the prevention of Apophis from escaping.

Did they want to take him alive? Or did it matter? And for that matter was there any nearby structures or such that might risk collateral damage from a full-scale bombardment?

Not the best example seeing as Death Gliders are vulnerable to well placed stinger missiles.

What does this have to do with Apophis escaping?

[Xon]

No its not. Inertial dampers are mounted on starships and are meant to prevent the side effects of massive acceleration by matching the acceleration of the crew (And other objects like personal belongings) to the acceleration of the ship.

Are you aware of Stargate style interia dampeners can be used prevent someone from even feeling it went they jump off a 2 story ledge and land face down on the ground? Or that it can weight down a spacecraft to prevent a hurricant covering 20% of an Earth sided planet from picking it up?

The dampers are not moving the ship itself (nor could they - what do you expect the dampers to be pushing against in order to move the ship?)

Deathgliders do use interia manipulation technology to fly.

[Connor MacLeod]

Are you aware of Stargate style interia dampeners can be used prevent someone from even feeling it went they jump off a 2 story ledge and land face down on the ground?

Sounds like technobabble actually.

Unless you mean that the speed of the fall is slowed to the point where a human can survive it, in which case that's not even remotely related to inertial damping. Its a propulsion unit (like a repulsor actually - in this case its "pushing" against the ground to provide a counterforce to the pull of gravity). The two aren't even remotely the same thing.

Or that it can weight down a spacecraft to prevent a hurricant covering 20% of an Earth sided planet from picking it up?

so they can alter the mass of an object now? That's even LESS plausible.

Deathgliders do use interia manipulation technology to fly.

Not only does that sound technobabblish, that doesn't answer my question. What do these "inertial dampers" push against?

[Xon]

Unless you mean that the speed of the fall is slowed to the point where a human can survive it, in which case that's not even remotely related to inertial damping. Its a propulsion unit (like a repulsor actually - in this case its "pushing" against the ground to provide a counterforce to the pull of gravity). The two aren't even remotely the same thing.

We see the guy do a bellyflop onto a metal floor from the 2nd level. And gets up like he was just laying down for a second. Mckay then states "must have interia dampeners in them"(or something very similar). They tested it before hand, by shooting him in the foot with a P90 at close range.

so they can alter the mass of an object now? That's even LESS plausible.

Yup.

Not only does that sound technobabblish, that doesn't answer my question. What do these "inertial dampers" push against?

Dont know. NecronLord, Chris OFarrell or Alyeska are the best people to ask for well grounded theories about it. I still need to find transcripts for all the episodes so I can easily search them.

[Xon]

What do these "inertial dampers" push against?

In Stargate, time dilation is not directly linked to extreme velocities. The Tollan used a FTL laser to contact the Nox and the Tollan can walk though walls but not fall through the floor.

The "inertial dampers" might not actually push against anything at all, but play about with reference frames and how the stuff interacts with it in the 1st place. Heck, the timetravel ship of the ancients has a device which generates a field which allows it to move though time.

[NecronLord]

Stargate inertial dampeners, mass alteration, and shields all seem to be part of a related technology. For example, there is an episode of Atlantis where the crew use the inertial dampeners to increase the mass of a 'puddle-jumper' so that it won't be blown away in an unnaturally large storm.

One interesting quote about how these function is from Tangent:

It's difficult to explain, Sir. The power plant doesn't exert force against gravity so much as take enertia out of the equation. Even pilots are immune to ordinary G forces. We don't completely understand the physics ---

And another one:

The engines were designed for a craft with a Alien Inertial dampening system the effectiously reduced it's overall mass.

Stargate Inertial Dampeners are not the simple things in Star Trek or Star Wars. We call them that because that is what the characters call them, not because of their resemblance to the Star Trek one (which Star Wars copied) as they are grossly more sophisticated.

As for what Apophis's personal shield would be bracing him against, I would suggest the floor, given that when that shield is active, we've never seen an operator move. If this is even neccessery, which I doubt, given the lack of his aim being put off despite the generator being mounted on his hand and people shooting at him. The writers clearly intend it to be either very difficult or indeed impossible, to rationalise these things with modern physics. A prime example of this would be Anubis' Kull Warriors being unmoved by large amounts of high explosives going off in their face. They're not even knocked over by this, yet they don't weigh anything more than an ordinary man for the purpouses of lifting and carrying them.

[NecronLord]

Unless you mean that the speed of the fall is slowed to the point where a human can survive it, in which case that's not even remotely related to inertial damping. Its a propulsion unit (like a repulsor actually - in this case its "pushing" against the ground to provide a counterforce to the pull of gravity). The two aren't even remotely the same thing.

Stargate Inertial Dampeners provide the functions of Repulsors and mass lighteners of other universes as well as providing inertial dampening.

so they can alter the mass of an object now? That's even LESS plausible.

Once you've got working FTL, these are minor concerns

Not only does that sound technobabblish, that doesn't answer my question. What do these "inertial dampers" push against?

In the case of the death gliders? They don't. They simply remove the effect of gravity on the ship when it operates in atmosphere.

[Xon]

Stargate inertial dampeners, mass alteration, and shields all seem to be part of a related technology. For example, there is an episode of Atlantis where the crew use the inertial dampeners to increase the mass of a 'puddle-jumper' so that it won't be blown away in an unnaturally large storm.

The Go'auld Hand device is really a universal remote for Go'auld technology. We have seen control systems for Asgard transporters (which can function as a weapon, replicator and transport!), shields, healing device, integration device and shields.

Obviously, System Lords will have access to different technology, and normal 2-bit Go'auld arent going to have access to all the neat toys that are even common to the system lords. Thus we can explain why not all Go'auld may have shields in those hand devices. They arent worth enough.

On the note of Go'auld Hand devices, we have seen them generate KE from literially nothing(aka slam a human back 10 metres into the wall) beyond the power source used to operate the hand devices.

If you can trivially generate KE in arbitrary directions, you have the very foundations for some type of shield technology. Further proof of this can be seen in "Window of Opportunity", the bubble shield there (emited by a small device sitting on a table...) slammed Teil'C back 5-6 meters when he just walked into it. A very slowly lobbed rock did a bullet impression went it hit the shield and rocketed back at considerable speed (you can see it shattering on a wall ~50m back).

[Connor MacLeod]

Since when did Stargate get to blithely and arbitrarily violate scientific principles?

[Murazor]

Since when did Stargate get to blithely and arbitrarily violate scientific principles?

Since the movie, as even Ra's hand device violated conservation of momentum throwing people around without any recoil and naquadah properties almost certainly go against conservation of energy. It works with suspension of disbelief, just like FTL speeds.

[NecronLord]

What he said. Since day one. (Ick. Me Tooing. I feel dirty)

[Xon]

Since when did Stargate get to blithely and arbitrarily violate scientific principles?

In the season or so, Carter states the stargate converts any energy into a form the gate can use to power itself

We also know submersing the stargate in high energy plasma will keep the gate open for longer, also hits from staff weapons get directly converted into gate running power (while the gate is running!).

This all happens from Day One.


NecronLord, join the Dark Side of Me Tooing!

[Crazedwraith]

Since when did Stargate get to blithely and arbitrarily violate scientific principles?

It doesn't. It's just our science is 'wrong' ref. Enigma.

[Connor MacLeod]

Since when did Stargate get to blithely and arbitrarily violate scientific principles?

Since the movie, as even Ra's hand device violated conservation of momentum throwing people around without any recoil and naquadah properties almost certainly go against conservation of energy. It works with suspension of disbelief, just like FTL speeds.

Not really, since I see no real efforts being made to rationalize it at all. Instead, the answer is "it just violates the laws and we must live with it" even though that is *utterly* ludicrous (not only does it actually create more problems from a SoD standpoint, it betrays a certain laziness in the methodolgy, since it appears noone really bothered to try to come up with a workable explanation for any of it.)

SoD does not simply assume science does not "apply" just to fit with character dialogue or because someone doesn't think it can be worked out. (Which is nonsense, considering the number of fuck-ups in Trek that have been rationalized under SoD - the same shoudl equally apply to any other sci-fi, including Stargate.)

As an example: in the case of the "momentum-violating hand device" did it occur to you that there might be those "mass lightning" effects attributed to their silly inertial dampers? If they can lighten the "mass" generated they should easily be able to fling a person around without triggering any recoil.)

Alternately, maybe the force-field effect is not neccesarily "line of sight" - its not being generated directly by the hand device itself (Rather than being like a tractor beam, it behaves more like say, Jedi telekinesis - which given it can act through solid matter is defintiely not "line of sight".)