Moderator: NecronLord
Looks like it'll be a while ShadowtravelerConnor MacLeod wrote:I've got some hefty computer problems at the moment, which is why my updates and such are in abeyance (and hopefully not destroyed.. I have months of stuff stored up I would scream if I had to re-add..)
.
The Tau have an equivalent of a Primarch? That has got me laughing.Ryan Thunder wrote:No, I find it completely galling that the Tau equivalent of a friggin Primarch got the piss taken out of him by <Ork warlord of the week>, and was having serious difficulty dealing with him, when he's never had any sort of trouble before. It has nothing to do with the Tau losing at anything in particular.
They couldn't land right next to the city because they had guns or missiles or something.Shadowtraveler wrote:I admit I missed that bit amongst all the other....weirdness. Seriously, were they worried about air defenses? That's what the Astartes are for, and the Ultramarines did exactly that in a short story, albeit with Terminators.
Actually, now that I think of it, when are you going to make an analysis thread of IA3, Connor?
To be fair to Ryan, I'm fairly sure he was referring to tactical and strategic ability, as opposed to talent in combat and raw power.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The Tau have an equivalent of a Primarch? That has got me laughing.
Ryan, I know you are big on Tau, but learn to accept some facts: The Tau ain't got anyone close to a Primarch, and Primarchs like Angron would have put any Tau "primarch" to shame. Hell, Angron even survived a fucking fortress falling on top of him, and proceeded to just chew up what was left of the enemy.
Yes, and what you got is nowhere near as good as what everyone else's got. It is YOU who don't get it, do you?Ryan Thunder wrote:Predictably, you didn't get it. He's what we have. He's not Solar Mach. But he's damn well as close as we're ever going to get to him, if the latest crop of GW's fluff is any sort of indication.Ford Prefect wrote:This is an example of this mentality we complain about in action. O'shava isn't even on the level of Ursarkar E. Creed or Lord Solar Macharius, let alone a Primarch. Even that statment 'Tau equivalent' is bullshit. He's the Tau equivalent of a famous general, not a veritable demigod.Ryan Thunder wrote:No, I find it completely galling that the Tau equivalent of a friggin Primarch
Except it IS pointless to train for close combat when there is no way you're going to match your enemy. When the Tau enter CQB, it is on their enemies' terms and playing to their strengths, and thus it IS stupid.When he says "Learn to shorten your reach" he doesn't mean "Run into CQC like retards", which seems to be your primary complaint. He means "Train for close combat instead of neglecting it entirely. It's bound to happen anyways, we might as well be ready for it." His troops used to get a general close combat bonus because they actually bothered to train for it.Would you, I don't know, stop ignoring half of my posts? O'Shava is known for instilling his troops with a greater willingness to engage in close ranged combat. He eschews one of their primary advantages of a Hunter Cadre, long ranged accuracy and precision, in favour of 'shortening his reach'. He should frankly loose every straight engagement against Orks, or any other short ranged specialist army, simply because the Tau are simply not built for that style of engagement. There is considerable irony in his translated name of 'Farsight'.got the piss taken out of him by <Ork warlord of the week>, and was having serious difficulty dealing with him, when he's never had any sort of trouble before.
I am sorry that GW outgrew its Tauwank stage and let the fanboys down. I truly am. Before, we had to deal with obnoxious fanboys, now we have to deal with obnoxious and bitter fanboys.The fluff is wildly different from what I'm used to, which involves pulse rifles with heavy bolter firepower, among other things. Then someone tells me its barely better than a hellgun, etc.I find this hard to believe, going by your past behaviour in threads where the Tau come up.It has nothing to do with the Tau losing at anything in particular.
And that is why we are living in the French Empire stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific, because a military genius like Napoleon could never lose, ESPECIALLY not to opponents he has beaten before, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?It's Commander Farsight. He's hundreds of years old, and maintains his own enclave outside of the Empire. The Orks won by "outsmarting" him, which is so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure
I would say that the average Ork warboss is smarter than your average Guard colonel, but they get the benefit of doctrines developed by people smarter than them, as well as centureis of accumulated military knowledge and tradition they can draw upon (and yet they still manage to lose quite badly sometimes). The Orks get none of this except their genetic memory, and every warboss has to literally re-invent everything from scratch. Yet, somehow people think that they are "stupid."Ford Prefect wrote:Also, I hate this idea that Orks are completely stupid, and incapable of outsmarting opponents. They're not the sharpest tools in the proverbial shed, but they are pretty cunning and at times surprisingly clever. I don't think I've ever seen an Ork warboss depicted as anything other than 'smarter than he looks'.
I thought groups of Orks would at least have some level of group tradition (i know orks can write to an extent) and Orks can observe and learn things (even if they Orkify them in the process which is a moot point in this instance). Yeah, its nothing like a textbook from an Imperial officer's academy, but it would not be re inventing everything thats not genetic memory with each new warboss.fgalkin wrote:I would say that the average Ork warboss is smarter than your average Guard colonel, but they get the benefit of doctrines developed by people smarter than them, as well as centureis of accumulated military knowledge and tradition they can draw upon (and yet they still manage to lose quite badly sometimes). The Orks get none of this except their genetic memory, and every warboss has to literally re-invent everything from scratch. Yet, somehow people think that they are "stupid."Ford Prefect wrote:Also, I hate this idea that Orks are completely stupid, and incapable of outsmarting opponents. They're not the sharpest tools in the proverbial shed, but they are pretty cunning and at times surprisingly clever. I don't think I've ever seen an Ork warboss depicted as anything other than 'smarter than he looks'.
I hear that "Run towards the enemy until you can bash him with your gun/blade/fists." is an innovative approach to warfare and a sure sign of tactical genius.Ford Prefect wrote:Also, I hate this idea that Orks are completely stupid, and incapable of outsmarting opponents. They're not the sharpest tools in the proverbial shed, but they are pretty cunning and at times surprisingly clever. I don't think I've ever seen an Ork warboss depicted as anything other than 'smarter than he looks'.
The Tau had firepower, you prat, and it made sense because while every other lot of retards was running around beating each other over the head with swords and pointy shafts, they were building guns. If Tau firepower is wank, what the fuck do you say about Space Marines, who can magically shrug it off like it's nothing?fgalkin wrote:I am sorry that GW outgrew its Tauwank stage and let the fanboys down. I truly am. Before, we had to deal with obnoxious fanboys, now we have to deal with obnoxious and bitter fanboys.
I hear that misrepresenting someone's sentence is a good way to get your point across.Ryan Thunder wrote:I hear that "Run towards the enemy until you can bash him with your gun/blade/fists." is an innovative approach to warfare and a sure sign of tactical genius.
Yeah, there are. They have been known to use practical methods to limit the tactical flexibility and speed of Imperial forces, thus making up for thier own deficets in the area (they dropped big rocks on them from orbit). They've been known to perform ambushes, fire support, hit and fade tactics, sabotage and so on. It's pretty funny how you utterly dismiss their usage of close air support, though. I mean, hey, looks like the Orks are making usage of combined arms warfare, but we better ignore that, huh?Are there any examples of orks using well-thought out tactics?
The first Ork built his first gun tens of thousands of years before the Tau had even developed fire. To suggest that only the Tau make appropriate usage of ranged weapons is about the most laughable notion I've ever seen brought up in a 40k thread, and I've seen some pretty stupid shit in my time. Here's a clue: one of the most iconic images in all of 40k is a Space Marine, legs braced, firing his boltgun at unseen enemies.fgalkin wrote:The Tau had firepower, you prat, and it made sense because while every other lot of retards was running around beating each other over the head with swords and pointy shafts, they were building guns.
You seem to be under the impression that Comrade Fgalkin's problem with the Tau is there [air quote]firepower[/air quote], as opposed to their forced relevance or their surprisingly irritating fans. Please note that you are indicative of the mindset of most Tau fans, but you are certainly not the most annoying example.If Tau firepower is wank, what the fuck do you say about Space Marines, who can magically shrug it off like it's nothing?
You are like a limitless well of hilarity. You indignation is so thick that it's clogging the drains.And for the record, a Primarch could kill Farsight in an instant, yes. He might be able to prolong it with his jetpack, but it would only be delaying the inevitable. Besides that, apparently you can easily kill Crisis suits with bolt pistols. So he wouldn't really even have to try too hard...
Fair enough, I guess.Raxmei wrote:They couldn't land right next to the city because they had guns or missiles or something.
A minor, petty Warboss by the name of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka ring any bells?Are there any examples of orks using well-thought out tactics?
Hell, in Fifteen Hours they used a multi-pronged attack to draw off the majority of Imperial forces so that their true target would be undermanned and unsupported.They've been known to perform ambushes, fire support, hit and fade tactics, sabotage and so on. It's pretty funny how you utterly dismiss their usage of close air support, though. I mean, hey, looks like the Orks are making usage of combined arms warfare, but we better ignore that, huh?
Mentioning the absolute peak of Orkish capability in terms of tactical and strategic ability is a little unfair. That said, Farsight is supposed to be the best the Tau have to offer, and Ghazghkull is significantly better than him. Though comparing 'lightning teleport raids from across the system' to 'hey, let's play to all our enemy's advantages' is blatantly silly.Peptuck wrote:A minor, petty Warboss by the name of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka ring any bells?
Hey, Ryan asked if there was ever any example of the Orks using well-thought-out tactics.Ford Prefect wrote:Mentioning the absolute peak of Orkish capability in terms of tactical and strategic ability is a little unfair.Peptuck wrote:A minor, petty Warboss by the name of Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka ring any bells?
How the heck do they do it then? Do the Orks have anything equivalent to a command staff or does the warboss literally command the entire army all by himself? I know that there are secondary commanders, but the idea that all the staff work is handled by one guy...fgalkin wrote:I would say that the average Ork warboss is smarter than your average Guard colonel, but they get the benefit of doctrines developed by people smarter than them, as well as centureis of accumulated military knowledge and tradition they can draw upon (and yet they still manage to lose quite badly sometimes). The Orks get none of this except their genetic memory, and every warboss has to literally re-invent everything from scratch. Yet, somehow people think that they are "stupid."Ford Prefect wrote:Also, I hate this idea that Orks are completely stupid, and incapable of outsmarting opponents. They're not the sharpest tools in the proverbial shed, but they are pretty cunning and at times surprisingly clever. I don't think I've ever seen an Ork warboss depicted as anything other than 'smarter than he looks'.
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
I'd rather you posted them here. Because I'm pretty sure I've not heard of such a thing, and I expect it'll be the UK version of MMR you're talking about.Leman-russ wrote:Sorry that was a mistake on my part I meant the "realistic marines" that was put out by GW UK's chapter approved a few years ago not the movie marines by GW US. If you want I can PM you there stats.
The current Warmaster/Lord Commander Solar doesn't have a tabletop model. Nor does Lord General Militant Huxlow, the highest ranking human officer we have a name for in M41. Does this make them inconsequential?Ryan Thunder wrote:Can we ignore that? Just that? I can live with everything else, but having a high-ranking and experienced, well-known commander who specializes in fighting orks lose to an Ork so inconsequential that he didn't even get a table-top model is just intolerably lame and smacks of idiotic fanboy writers getting a free pass to do whatever the hell they want.Connor MacLeod wrote:Mind you, the recent Ork codex does demonstrate the Taus got themselves fucked over by the Orks [...]
This sounds a-lot like TT creeping in here. I'm aware of no reliable descriptions of ork looted vehicles.Samuel wrote:You mean the converted Leman Russes the Orks field which are one of the best tanks in the galaxy and probably the most numerous? Or the the Bigga Shootas which can punch through Space Marine armor? Or the Flash Gitz who dedicate their lives to having the best weapons humanly possible and than one better?
And Emperor forbid we leave out CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM simply because he has no model, either.NecronLord wrote: The current Warmaster/Lord Commander Solar doesn't have a tabletop model. Nor does Lord General Militant Huxlow, the highest ranking human officer we have a name for in M41. Does this make them inconsequential?
Ghazkull's Waghhh is insignificant in numbers compared to the one in the Apocalypse rulebook that attacked the Raven Guard homeworld. Does its leader need a character model before he's taken seriously too? Similarly, the Raven Guard Chapter Master is no doubt (at least) nearly as bright as Calgar. Should we dismiss him too, just because he's not got a model? Commissar General Holt is probably more significant than Yarrick (being introduced in the game he appears, set in 998, with 'No living commissar holds more respect!') but by your standards, he's a mook because he doesn't have a dedicated model? There's hundreds and hundreds of people more significant than many special characters.
Presumably, despite every one of them having served as military commanders for millions of years (No, I don't mean stasis; the C'tan were a dominant force for "millions of years" before the enslaver plague) you also find it impossible for a necron lord to out-think say, Shadowsun, because she's a special character and they're not?
If he met Gaunt? (Was Gaunt alive then?)NecronLord wrote:Well, in truth, he is just lucky. A meeting with Yarrick would probably result in his being exposed for the cowardly wretch he is and shot.
Hey, you said they were smarter than they seemed and could be tactical, etc. Everything I'd seen indicated otherwise. What did you expect me to do? Agree with you that they're intelligent when from my perspective they can only barely be defined as sapient?Ford Prefect wrote:I hear that misrepresenting someone's sentence is a good way to get your point across.
And they've all built the same gun to this very day.The first Ork built his first gun tens of thousands of years before the Tau had even developed fire.fgalkin wrote:The Tau had firepower, you prat, and it made sense because while every other lot of retards was running around beating each other over the head with swords and pointy shafts, they were building guns.
Oh, give me a break. That's not what I meant at all.To suggest that only the Tau make appropriate usage of ranged weapons is about the most laughable notion I've ever seen brought up in a 40k thread, and I've seen some pretty stupid shit in my time. Here's a clue: one of the most iconic images in all of 40k is a Space Marine, legs braced, firing his boltgun at unseen enemies.
Forced relevance? I see them as largely irrelevant. The only reason they haven't been squashed like bugs yet is because the Imperium has other things to worry about that are of greater consequence.You seem to be under the impression that Comrade Fgalkin's problem with the Tau is there [air quote]firepower[/air quote], as opposed to their forced relevance or their surprisingly irritating fans. Please note that you are indicative of the mindset of most Tau fans, but you are certainly not the most annoying example.If Tau firepower is wank, what the fuck do you say about Space Marines, who can magically shrug it off like it's nothing?
So it's wrong of me to be incredulous that one of the most heavily armoured units I can field that shrugs off or outright avoids most firepower on the table top can be easily killed (fluffwise) by a relatively common sidearm?You are like a limitless well of hilarity. You indignation is so thick that it's clogging the drains.And for the record, a Primarch could kill Farsight in an instant, yes. He might be able to prolong it with his jetpack, but it would only be delaying the inevitable. Besides that, apparently you can easily kill Crisis suits with bolt pistols. So he wouldn't really even have to try too hard...
Totally inaccurate. The definite Eldar strategy is to shoot the enemy to death with super guns when they enter the kill zone that their psykers predicted last year. That they have a few Aspect Warriors, who are a minority of their forces, who specialize in close combat doesn't change that. It just means that when the situation calls for close quarter badasses they have them.Ryan Thunder wrote:
Everybody else has a propensity to engage in melee combat (sometimes even at the expense of their ability to apply greater ranged firepower) that the Tau outgrew centuries before they built the space empire we're familiar with. The only other army that does a decent job of making use of the firepower avaliable to them is the Imperial Guard--and then they go and build Leman Russes with four guns on them that max out at 40 km/h on a good road, as if they inherited their tank design philosophy from the First world war. At least they have awesome close air support. The Eldar have speed and stealth--and then they go and use it to drop a squad of power-armoured ninjas with glorified chainsaws into the midst of the enemy instead of picking them apart from an amusingly long range with impunity. They manage to do just that in space; I have no idea what's stopping them from doing it on the ground.
Space Marines are massively nerfed for table top. Killing them with lasguns, for example, is almost impossible. It'll take a lot of shooting with pulse weapons (over powered for table top) to kill a Marine, but its doable. The armour will just take a lot of abuse before it happens though. Power Armour is one of the areas when Imperial tech has been improving, not stagnating and nothing I've seen suggests that the Tau are the equal of the Imperium when it comes to materials technology. Space Marine armour is also superior to armour issued to standard humans, including in its ability to withstand punishment and, of course, shocks and trauma transmitted to the wearer underneath that would kill an ordinary human (and an old man in power armour survived being hit with autocannons and being buried in rubble in Malleus) would cause little harm to a Marine. Chunks were blown off the Captain in Kill Team, just not enough to down him before he reached close quarters and went to town with his Power Sword.The vast majority of the Tau army is armed with weapons that supposedly won't even faze a Space Marine. If that were truly the case, a few dozen Assault Marines (or even footsloggers) armed with nothing but bolt pistols and chainswords or power weapons should've been enough to make Damocles a series of one-sided massacres for the Imperium. But there were hundreds of them armed with all sorts of nastiness, and it wasn't. Hence my incredulity whenever somebody tries to sell me these ideas that plasma rifles aren't good for killing Space Marines, burst cannons can't kill them, and Crisis suits go down to a half-dozen hits from a bolt pistol.
Its up in the air whether or not Cain is as much of a coward as he says he is. Sandy Mitchell himself said he doesn't know whether Cain is really a coward or just an extremely self-depricating hero.NecronLord wrote:Well, in truth, he is just lucky. A meeting with Yarrick would probably result in his being exposed for the cowardly wretch he is and shot.
