Challenging Spocktard to a debate

[DrStrangelove]

My god how many people from SB are here too?

[consequences]

Well, if the canon is the ruleset over everything else, then the range disclaimer is invalidated. Oh, and nothing with a probability of less than 2.77 percent can ever happen in universe, and Victor Steiner-Davion was replaced by a double in the latter stages of the Fed-Comm Civil War.

AKA, they can fuck off with that particular idiocy.

[Ender]

so did the debate start yet?

[Thanatos]

so did the debate start yet?

Yes and despite my insistence to wait off on posting arguments to avoid any commentary on posts yet to be replied to, he went and did it anyway.

[CaptainChewbacca]

So... can we see the posts, then?

[Thanatos]

Might as well since the cat is out of the bag.

Opening statement:
I will begin by making a large number of assertions about VS arguments, about the particulars of each universe, and about the contrast of general ground warfare technology between Warhammer 40,000 and BattleTech. I expect you to challenge the points you do not agree with, but I expect you will agree with some statements in part or in full. I can provide evidence for each of my contentions, and will for each one that you choose to challenge rather than accept.

Game mechanics. In general, while game mechanics may be suspect, and may also be treated as a lower level than fluff or fiction, a certain amount of information may be extracted from game mechanics - at least where not contradicted by the fiction, fluff, other game mechanics, or physics, and always subject to resolution errors and poor approximations. However, both universes are best known for their games, and the games themselves contain information that may be buried deeply or not present within fiction or fluff.

* Warhammer 40,000: Qualitative, but not quantitative, information, within the resolution of the game system. As it is based on a complex D6 system (hit+wound+save Armor vs AP etc), quantitative information is subject to some inconsistencies, for example, in measuring relative strength with precision. E.g., the mechanic suggests an exponential scale for the strength of weapons, but the exponent is highly variable depending on choice of standard. However, we may determine:

o Which weapons are stronger, at least within a given army, against general types of targets. For example, a bolter generally is better at hurting WH40K targets than a lasgun, but is also clearly a less potent weapon than a meltagun, regardless of the quirks in the approximation of the game system.

o Which units are in general faster or slower units.

o Which weapons have unusually long or short ranges.

o Selection of inventory commonly in use within a given army.

o Approximate physical scale of various objects.

o Which units, within a given army, are tougher or more skilled.

o Which weapons are fully automatic, slow to fire, difficult to aim, have collateral damage that will typically affect more than one infantryman in a tight formation, overheat badly, et cetera.


* BattleTech: Some quantitative information, some qualitative information, within the resolution of the game system. There are at least nine gaming systems in the franchise - Classic BattleTech, Solaris VII, BattleForce, AeroTech, BattleSpace, MechWarrior (RPG), MechWarrior (computer game), MechWarrior DA, and Battletech CCG, with numerous variants of each system. MWDA and the MW computer games do not appear considered canon by fans of the Classic BattleTech. The following data, however, appear consistent, to within rounding effects:

o Quantitative strength of weapons vs BT targets (linear damage point values, rather than a weapon strength scale.)

o Quantitative speeds of BT units.

o Average number of hits to kill a given unit.

o Relative armor strengths of units within a given unit type.

o Waste heat generated by energy weapons (non-energy weapons' waste heat is treated inconsistently across different types of armored units, making it an iffier issue).

o Mass spent per round of ammunition for a given weapon.


Basic principles:

* Parity of offensive and defensive systems. Units' standard equipment is usually sufficient to threaten damage to its primary targets, which are usually equal or larger size units. We may expect a priori that bolters threaten Space Marines, battle cannon threaten tanks, and particle projector cannons threaten BattleMechs. It is an exceptional circumstance for a unit to not carry weapons capable of providing a threat to itself, although the potency of the threat may vary; having such a weapon is thus, in the absence of other evidence, a reasonable assumption to make.

* Physics is a mature science. If the mechanisms are all understood, and no exotic mechanisms are actively in play, the results suggested by actual physics should be considered carefully.

* Consider recent warfare. Both universes are constructed with the assumption of prior human history and technology, at least up to the date publication began. Contrasts with modern technology can create numerous reductio arguments.

* Fiction is, as a rule, not as consistent as reality. See prior discussions of fan analysis and explanation complexity for details at length; in summary, we should both expect to discard some evidence as inconsistent.

* In the absence of direct evidence, scaling up or down from known data from related elements and known physics is usually one of the most appropriate methods of guessing performance. Care should be taken, of course; for example, a .30 caliber rifle does not have 8/27 of the muzzle energy of a .45 caliber pistol; caliber itself communicates relatively little information, so this error is expected.

* Assumptions should handle unknown material even-handedly. Example: If we have some unknown "supersonic" velocity, assuming for calculation this means Mach 1.001 in the BTverse ('minimal' supersonic) and Mach 3 ('average' supersonic) in WH40k in another part of your argument is inappropriate without additional supporting evidence.

* Slender, high-density kinetic weapons generally are the most energy-efficient means of punching a hole of given size through armor of a given thickness, followed fairly closely by HEAT type weapons, followed by short-period electromagnetic weapons (laser blasts). Explosives in general apply a mixture of thermal and kinetic energy; the ratio of energies depends on the type and yield of the explosion, although it is not unheard of for them to be evenly mixed.



Preliminary assertions:
These can be justified via a combination of fluff, fiction, and the above principles.

* Warhammer 40,000:

o The lasgun has an actual effective yield on the close order of 2 megajoules in observed incidents, and a power pack with a rated capacity of 19 megajoules.

o A bolter has a probable total yield per bolt, including kinetic and explosive energy, in either the e5 or e6 joule range. It is an automatic weapon, normally fed with magazines of 20-30 .75 caliber rocket-propelled explosive bullets.

o The Earthshaker artillery cannon has ballistic performance similar to WWII-era artillery, with a 38 kg shell and a bit under 13 megajoules' muzzle energy, although it appears to have a superior bursting charge - approximately 2 gigajoules.

o Regular tank guns have similar destructive power to modern tank cannons against buildings, and some appear to have a probable muzzle energy on the rough order of half that of the Earthshaker cannon while using standard munitions.

o A normal lascannon fired under ordinary circumstances has a yield that is on the close order of, or below, 2 gigajoules, including no significant area effects; the rare laser destroyer, a more powerful weapon, is the least powerful laser weapon that causes collateral damage even on a direct hit.

o A meltagun has an effective output-to-target most likely between 1 and 10 gigawatts. It is a broad-impact thermal weapon with limited range and ammunition.

o Lascannon, battle cannon, meltaguns, and earthshaker cannon all have a fair chance of penetrating even Land Raider armor in a single hit. Other weapons with a reasonable chance of piercing any regular tank armor include Tau railguns and a variety of anti-tank missiles.

o Total armor protection on a WH40K tank is not particularly impressive by modern standards and potentially vulnerable to single-hit kills from modern tank weapons.

o Armor materials used in WH40K exceed modern armor materials per unit mass and per unit volume. In the special case of Space Marine vehicles, mounting advanced armor, standard composition appears to be typically comprised of a 20-25mm layer of radiation shielding/paint/environmental insulation, which has minimum effect against laser weapons and bullets, followed by a layer with very close to 5x the protection of conventional steel armor. Imperial Guard vehicles seem to have slightly thicker armor layers, but do not enjoy superior protection as a consequence of these thicker layers.

o The primary armored vehicle chassis for the Imperial Guard, which are the Imperium's primary users of armored vehicles, has a maximum off-road speed of 21 kph. On the road, it still only goes 35 kph, about the speed of a running Space Marine.

o Powered battle armor have not been witnessed surviving the application of gigajoule-energy weapons.

o Titans have powerful void shields that regenerate fairly quickly.

* BattleTech:

o A particle projector cannon's shot puts out a total energy in the e10 joule order of magnitude, and causes significant harm to infantry who happen to be simply near the target. The large laser is not far off from this and similarly causes lethal thermal effects on nearby humans. Even small/medium grade lasers have been observed causing significant destruction in the e9 joule range.

o A standard gauss rifle is a 100mm 125kg caliber hypersonic solid slug of some ferromagnetic material with a kinetic energy of 720-1000 megajoules, and enough momentum to cause a BattleMech to skid, plow, or lurch multiple meters. The muzzle velocity of other gauss weapons is similar, although not necessarily exactly the same.

o The gauss rifle described above will either barely pierce or barely be stopped by a 10 gram/cm^2 layer of BT armor.

o Armor used on BattleMechs generally exceeds the penetration of modern tank rounds by a comfortable margin.

o BattleMechs are quite nimble, and have superior mobility to tanks with similar top speeds.

o Powered battle armor mount weapons that are on par with the very lightest weapons used on BattleMechs.

o Most BattleMechs have a rated top speed between 60 and 100 kph. Most tanks also fall in this range.

o One heat point in the game from an energy weapon represents on the close order of one gigajoule of waste heat.

o Damage value is in general proportionate to armor shattered (kinetic weapons) melted/vaporized (thermal weapons), or a combination of the two (explosive weapons).

o BattleTech battle armor and BattleMechs tend to be jump-capable, like Tau crisis suits.

o The high explosive component of BattleTech autocannon shells accounts for the majority of their destructive effect against BattleMechs. The precise explosive mechanism of these uranium-tipped supersonic shells may vary.

* Comparing the two, we find that:

o Downsizing the BattleTech gauss technology to a 1 point or 2 point weapon leaves it with enough armor penetration to threaten a Land Raider regardless of choice of scaling factor. As gauss weapons in this damage range exist, and are deployed by battle armor, gauss-armed BattleTech battle armor units are capable of piercing Land Raider armor.

o Based on the above information about energy weapons, and game mechanical information accounting for resolution error, the small laser almost certainly exceeds 2.3 GJ, which in turn means it has a higher yield than the lascannon, which threaten Land Raiders via the same mechanism (concentrated laser energy). This means that small-laser armed BattleTech battle armor units are capable of defeating Land Raider armor.

o The first two items suggest a general case, which is to say that nearly all BattleTech battle armor (excluding a handful of light models that do not always mount full-strength anti-BattleMech weapons) can individually threaten Warhammer 40,000 vehicles up to and including the Land Raider.

o The PPC is at least five times as powerful as the lascannon and has fringe thermal effects. Land Raider armor will not handle this, although it is possible that a few Space Marine passengers will survive the destruction of their transport and the rest of their squad.

o The full strength gauss rifle is wasted on the Land Raider, as the majority of its kinetic energy is likely to exit the opposite side of the vehicle.

o From these two examples, we may conclude BattleMechs' primary weapons, which are also the primary weapons of heavier tanks in the BTverse, are likely to mission-kill Warhammer 40,000 conventional tanks with any direct hit, even at extreme range for the weapon or a relatively poor angle of impact with the armor.

o The fact that BattleTech battle armor very often survives hits from energy (high velocity particle and laser) weapons that would kill a Space Marine outright (or a even Warhammer 40,000 tank) demonstrates superior protection against concentrated thermal attacks, as well as superior durability of PBA suits.

o The fact that a ridiculously thin layer of BattleTech armor can halt a hypersonic projectile with enough momentum to cause a 100 ton BattleMech to stagger or skid multiple meters demonstrates extraordinarily superior protection against kinetic attacks, as well as the superior durability of the BattleMechs and BattleTech armored vehicles that handily survive multiple attacks from weapons that make a mockery out of the Land Raider's adamantium-ceramite alloy shell.

o Since the top rated combat speeds of most BattleMechs and BattleTech tanks exceeds the maximum off-road tank speed of the Imperial Guard's common Leman Russ tanks by a factor of three to five, the Imperial Guard is terribly outpaced on the march and in the field.


* Sample unit comparison between a BattleMech and Warhammer 40,000 tank. Both are sixty tons; we compare the stock Leman Russ to the 3025-era Kuritan staple, the DRG-1N Dragon. The Leman Russ is plainly the inferior war machine - and also far more realistic to our modern eyes, not coincidentally:

o Main weaponry:

+ Leman Russ: Battle Cannon (40 rounds)
+ Dragon: AC/5 (40 rounds) - this is a fair match for the Battle Cannon.
+ Dragon also has LRM-10 (24 rounds) - slightly more powerful weapon capable of indirect fire from out of sight, but which cannot lock onto close targets effectively.

o Secondary weaponry:

+ Leman Russ: 1 lascannon
+ Dragon: 2 medium lasers - each of which is more powerful than the lascannon

o Mobility:

+ Leman Russ: 35 kph on the road, 21 kph in the field. Capable of scaling hills, rolling over small obstacles/pits, fording streams, churning through meter-deep mud, etc. Turns slowly. Does not shoot well on the move (see Conqueror variant).
+ Dragon: 86 kph rated maximum speed. Capable of stepping over large obstacles, climbing cliffs, extended underwater operations, wading through mud deep enough to completely immerse a tank, etc. Pivots on a dime; usually fires on the move.

o Armor:

+ Leman Russ: Vulnerable to single hits from own weapons. Surviving multiple hits from own weapons unlikely.
+ Dragon: Unlikely to be destroyed by single hits by weapons half an order of magnitude more powerful than own weapons. Surviving more than a dozen hits from own weapons very likely.

o Personnel commitment:

+ Leman Russ: Crew of 4.
+ Dragon: Crew of 1.

[[R_H]]

Ork Waagh versus trek
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... sc&start=0

Wow, that's spectacular. Infantry phasers are a threat against tanks. How effective are phasers against anything that isn't a humanoid, like metal for example?

[DrStrangelove]

What the hell is he basing his 40K calcs on

[PainRack]

And people think I'm a Btech wanker? This is ludricious........

How on god green earth did he get the waste heat energy issue, when I and other CBT forum members have been searching for a good resolution to that? Granted, I haven't been keeping up with CBT for the last few years, but such a breakthrough would certainly had its ripple effects on Battletech vs in SB.

Similarly, 100 ton battlemech to stagger or skid? Based on........ what? The heavy gauss rifle? I know there are novel quote that says a normal gauss recoil can tear the mech arms off, but that quote is already absurd in its particular context, much less in a normal setting.

[harbringer]

He is pulling them out of his ass what did you expect?? I play both games (and others) and have no hesitation in declaring 40K the winner. He has also massively improved both the heat issue and damage. In game the heat on verhicles reflects that all verhicles have more cooling capacity than a mech and less vital stuff pressed up against the weapon causing the heat. Painrack is closer to the mark if you include all sources.

[quote: Total warfare page 9]Writers often use creative license as such fiction does not equal rules[/quote]

And I have never been a SB member I just like my hobbies.

[PainRack]

He is pulling them out of his ass what did you expect?? I play both games (and others) and have no hesitation in declaring 40K the winner. He has also massively improved both the heat issue and damage. In game the heat on verhicles reflects that all verhicles have more cooling capacity than a mech and less vital stuff pressed up against the weapon causing the heat. Painrack is closer to the mark if you include all sources.

The vehicles heat issue can be simply written off by the fact that vehicle crews are placed in close proximity to weapons and systems, but a mechwarrior isn't and that vehicles are "open", but mechs systems are closed.

We can still see how deleterious this is with regards to the Demolisher AC/20s.

I love to see how he gets 10degree Celsius rise= 1 gigajoule.

[Vehrec]

o Total armor protection on a WH40K tank is not particularly impressive by modern standards and potentially vulnerable to single-hit kills from modern tank weapons.

He seems to be forgetting that WH40K's equivalent of a 120mm smooth bore cannon is a 40-60 mm Autocanon. He's basing ALL this off rulebooks, rather than other, higher canon. WAG OF THE FINGER.

Also, please point out how that armor is chewed off by measly .50 machine gun fire, and a squad of space marines would be capable of probably chewing through to internals with auto-fire.

See HERE for Tanksharp of the Leman Russ, in all it's glory. It's got Inertial Dampners on a tank famed for how BASIC it is. It's got the equivalent of over a meter of RHA on it's front and apparently, sides are almost as good. Old shepy was a little conservative with his estimates here.

[Imperial Overlord]

Read "Honour Guard" or check out some analysis based on it here. here as well

[Thanatos]

Read "Honour Guard" or check out some analysis based on it here. here as well

Oh don't worry, I know where to look to do my analysis.
*pats stack of Omnibuses and novels*

[Peptuck]

Leman Russ: 35 kph on the road, 21 kph in the field. Capable of scaling hills, rolling over small obstacles/pits, fording streams, churning through meter-deep mud, etc. Turns slowly. Does not shoot well on the move (see Conqueror variant).

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second.

I do distinctly recall one of the Crowning Moments of Awesome in Necropolis being the part where the Narmenian armored regiment, armed with regular-pattern Leman Russ tanks, utterly and completely obliterates a Zoican armored regiment with a complex two-pronged armor assault on opposite sides of the Zoican force, while firing on the move. In fact, the entire manuever is based on on-the-move shooting.

[legio mortis]

I do distinctly recall one of the Crowning Moments of Awesome in Necropolis being the part where the Narmenian armored regiment, armed with regular-pattern Leman Russ tanks, utterly and completely obliterates a Zoican armored regiment with a complex two-pronged armor assault on opposite sides of the Zoican force, while firing on the move. In fact, the entire manuever is based on on-the-move shooting.

And not to mention that the Epic rulebook itself mentions that the Leman Russ is perfectly capable of firing on the move. Just about every source on the Russ out there follows it. I've yet to read a story where the Leman Russ actually had to sit still to move, without it being a Demolisher or a pattern built by drunken colonists on Asscrack IV.

[legio mortis]

You might also want to check out this handy snippet about the Earthshaker cannon.

[NecronLord]

It's worth noting that even his assumption about 40K TT strength reflecting relative differences is wrong. On the tabletop, a tau pulse rifle is an all 'round more dangerous weapon than a Dire Avenger catapult, and even a necron gauss flayer, when both canonically, do a lot more damage to a space marine target. It's game balance. Otherwise, every game would consist of Space Marines and similarly elite armies (Eldar, Necrons) putting about twenty models on the field to fight swarmy ones like 'nids or guard.

[Azazal]

Leman Russ: 35 kph on the road, 21 kph in the field. Capable of scaling hills, rolling over small obstacles/pits, fording streams, churning through meter-deep mud, etc. Turns slowly. Does not shoot well on the move (see Conqueror variant).

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second.

I do distinctly recall one of the Crowning Moments of Awesome in Necropolis being the part where the Narmenian armored regiment, armed with regular-pattern Leman Russ tanks, utterly and completely obliterates a Zoican armored regiment with a complex two-pronged armor assault on opposite sides of the Zoican force, while firing on the move. In fact, the entire manuever is based on on-the-move shooting.

Guess I should send him the Inferno diagram of a Russ that show the speeds as 70 kph road and 55 fro field. And where does he get the turn slow crap from?

[Vendetta]

And not to mention that the Epic rulebook itself mentions that the Leman Russ is perfectly capable of firing on the move. Just about every source on the Russ out there follows it. I've yet to read a story where the Leman Russ actually had to sit still to move, without it being a Demolisher or a pattern built by drunken colonists on Asscrack IV.

Also, the Epic implementation is that everything fires at it's base accuracy whilst moving, and merely gains a bonus for sitting still to fire.

[loomer]

Make sure you point out that the OTHER basic armoured vehicle used by the Guard (the Chimera) has a top on/off speed of 70kph/55kph, and they are thus not always as slow as he would.

Specialist ground vehicles can have speeds of 110/70 (Centaur small utility vehicle), 100/68 (Salamander scout), 80/60 (Trojan workhorse), 40/24 (Leman Russ annihilator).

And if we include Imperial Navy aircraft detachments, 2400 (Lightning strike fighter) and 1800 (Marauder bomber), etc.

[loomer]

Ghetto edit:
Having read the forces he is allowing for 40K, I am forced to conclude he is an utter retard.

Top speed for the Warhound Titan alone is 58/42 KPH, with armour levels of 95mm for both hull and superstructure, with void shields and reinforced leg armour (which is all most BT mechs will be able to hit target effectively at closer ranges).

To go with the Space Marines we've got Drop Pods (not really countable, but what the hell. 12,000 KPH. Down only.) we also have Thunderhawk Gunships, the lightest armed of which (transport variant) has a top speed of 2000KPH (approximately), 350 with operational cieling 100M (Land Speeder standard/Tornado), 330 (Land Speeder Typhoon), 300 (LS Tempest)

And for ground vehicles, top speeds of 70/55 (Rhino/Razorback. Seems it has a few similarities with the Chimera...), 68/50 (Predator/Whirlwind models, though IIRC the Baal model has a turbocharged engine as a special rule), 64/48 (Vindicator), 55/48 (Land Raider, standard/Helios/Prometheus), 50/41 (LR Crusader), 10/5 (Dreadnought (Mars made, Incladion made has 8/5 but more firepower)).

[Peptuck]

Leman Russ: 35 kph on the road, 21 kph in the field. Capable of scaling hills, rolling over small obstacles/pits, fording streams, churning through meter-deep mud, etc. Turns slowly. Does not shoot well on the move (see Conqueror variant).

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a second.

I do distinctly recall one of the Crowning Moments of Awesome in Necropolis being the part where the Narmenian armored regiment, armed with regular-pattern Leman Russ tanks, utterly and completely obliterates a Zoican armored regiment with a complex two-pronged armor assault on opposite sides of the Zoican force, while firing on the move. In fact, the entire manuever is based on on-the-move shooting.

Guess I should send him the Inferno diagram of a Russ that show the speeds as 70 kph road and 55 fro field. And where does he get the turn slow crap from?

Because its big and boxy and gothic!!11!!12!

[loomer]

He may be thinking of the Baneblade, which is in fact slow to turn.

Because it's freaking huge.

[Imperial Overlord]

We have a lower end limit for melta guns, weapons easily carried into battle by a single unaugmented soldier, of 25 gigajoules thanks to the Caves of Ice calculations. That's the lower limit. His absurdly high end figures, supported by nothing but his own opinion, is 10 gigajoules for a 'mech PPC, the Battletech king of the beam weapons. Even his BTech wank leaves BTech as being grossly inferior.