40K fleet numbers analysis thread

[Connor MacLeod]

AH well, why not. Warp speeds ahoy! Hopefully this WILL be my last addition

Ten thousand light years can be traversed within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft. By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard repsonse time for the raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conlficts troops may be brought in from much further away.

This gives indications of average warp travel speeds as well as the response time for the IG (1-4 months for a large scale moblization, though other sources like Caves of Ice give the Navy "weeks" to assemble a sizeable flotilla including several battleships.)

Note that 10,000 LY in 10-40 days works out to between 90,000c and 365,000c This is a bit "faster' tahn alot of sources suggest, but Warp travel is of course highly variable on conditions. We might assume this is travel speed on "known, well traveled" routes.

The Imperium itself is inconceivably vast, ,spanning many thousands of light years that require months, even years of travel to traverse it.

This implies much slower speeds.. thousands to tens of thousands times c, but still significant if we take the "thousands" literally. If we assume it refers to crossing the WHOLE Imperium, it could eaisly be in the tens or hundreds of thousands times c (up to half a million c, in fact.)

A journey that may take centuries in real space can be traversed in a matter of weeks in the warp.

This presents an "Average" speed. "centuries" implies hundreds of light years. "weeks" implies speeds averageing many thousands/tens of thousands of c.

[Lost Soal]

Thought I'd add some quotes from Tactica Imperialis. It is an extract from an Imperial Guard Training manual titled Orders of Battle Of The Glorious Imperial Guard.

Pg. 56

The Imperial Guard is vast. It is said that were its warriors to form up in column they would reach from Holy Terra to Armageddon.

One of the sayings mentioned in the quotes above. As a bit of fun, Codex Armageddon places the distance at ~10,000LY. Taking a soilder thickness of .3m (I hope this is a reasonable average) that gives ~3.15e20 Soilders. So just a few then

The Regiment
Every world judged able by the Holy Priesthood of Terra is required to give unto the Imperium no less than one tenth of its fighting hosts, upon a regular basis and in addition when required by circumstance.

reiteration of the 10% teith but adds the proviso that the world must be "judged able". No information of the criteria but I suspect it would allow the exclusion of agri-worlds whos population is small and needed for harvesting the food, and likely alot of Forge worlds who's dominating population is, as I recall, servitors.

Said forces must be of the highest quality, and are thus invariably formed from a cadre of the world's best Planitary Defence Force units. They will have their own ranks, titles, formations, doctorines and histories, but regardless of all this, they will be devided into roughly equal units, consisting of several thousand warriors, and given a regimental number

The Guard demand the best of a planets PDF troops, and are generally split into regiments of several thousand. Cadia has been noted as being an exception to this as they choose their 10% randomly, this leway likely being granted due to its location.

The regiment is the only formation that remains even vaguely consistant in size regardless of the world from which it is drawn, though even then, there exists no small degree of variance.

The regiment is the main building block of the Guard and is meant as the standard, although even this is noted as being only vaguely consistant

Furthermore, where in the dark times the regiments had been fielded in massive and coherent, all-arms, groupings, these were rendered down. Instead a regiment must conform to a (very broadly) defined typem whether Infantry, Armoured, Artillary, Pioneer or any number of allowed varions. This might at first appear at odds with the notion that a regiment must be prepared to stand alone, but I tell you now, this is entirely deliberate, for it forces a level of interdependance at levels higher than the regiment, an independence that can only come from the loyal servants of the Munitorum.

The regiment organisations is another safe guard against chaos corruption, rebellion or other form of betrayal. The armed forces seem to be built around the fear of rebellion, hardly surprising considering the hardships it forces it armies through. I expect the Munitorum is kept in line with something akin to a gun to the head.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh thanks. I was wondering if I should add the stuff from T.I., but I didn't want to devote the time.

From the way they referenceed the whole "Guard Regiment" thing, it seems to be vaguely an administrative formation really - just a convenient way of assigning or assembling armies from what is available or what they need (depending on circumstances.) Kinda like a jigsaw puzzle as I see it.

Basically it also just introducecs SOME measure of standardization,b ecause even in a regiment there's a hell of alot of variety in numbers and tactics and culture and such. Numbers seem to vary primarily according to the kind of Tithe ("annual" tithes seem to be fairly uniform, any number of regiments, usually in the 'thousands' I'd wager, formed from the top 10% of PDF forces. "conditional" tithes, ie those raised in wartime, seem to be much more flexible - the 'few hundred to a few huhndred thousand" numbers, - as needed.)

It can also vary according to planet and the type of regiment (We know Cadians favor 8,000 troops per regiment, for example, whereas the Tanith averaged around 2-3 thousand. Insofar as Regimens go, we know heavy infantry tend to number in the high thousands/low tens of thousands, while "light" infantry can be a a thousand or a few thousand, ,especially motorized infantry like the Valhallans or Tallarn in the Cain novels.)

It also seems the Regimental formation was also arranged to allow a certain "jack of all trades" ability despite the fact that regiments tend to broadly specialize from planet to planet (Catachans being jungle fighters, Tanith light infantry, Elysians being drop commandos, Armageddon producing mechanized infantry, etc.) For example a Guard regiment (in theory) is capable of fighting both infantry and vehicles to some capability, although not neccesarily with the same level of efficiency. Likewise, you might also see other kinds of regiments (light infantry or rough riders) pressed into other roles as situations require (or depending on the commander's stupidity, in the case of someone like Dravere.) such as playing medium or heavy infantry.

[andrewgpaul]

The codices also mention that specialist regiments, such as Tallarn or Attilan Rough Riders, Stormtroopers, etc, are usually broken down into company or platoon-sized packets, and despatched indivdually to warzones. In their cases, the 'regiment' is purely an administrative entity.

I believe the same goes for the Abhuman regiments, Ogryns and Ratlings, but I'm not sure.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah, a bit more "alternate" random stuff... what the hell.. I've also decided sooner or later (mood permitting) I'll also touch on Eldar and maybe some other stuff. I can at least do the Eldar and maybe some Chaos implications (the Grand 40K quantification thread is useful for that at least)

Epic 40K 2nd edition: Armies of the Imperium:

page 44

A typical regiment may be between two and six thousand men strong and as there are over a million worlds in the Imperium the potential number of recruits is enormous. The size of an individual army depends on circumstancecs, but it is quite common for armies to include more than a hundred regiments in all.

"Armies" by this definition comprise "more than a hundred" regiments. This implies between 200,000 and 600,0000 troops minimum. This could be more, given other (later?) sources specify larger numbers per regiment (tens or hundreds of thousands, for potentially millions/tens of millions of troops.)


Codex IG, 2nd, page 6

The Imperial Guard is not a single army but many armies of countless millions of men and fighting machines. At any one time the Imperial Guard fight across a hundred warzones and upon ten thousand planets.

....

Each Army and each war is unique in at least some respects.

Mention of "armies of countless millions of men and fighting machines." a bit vague, but it implies each "army" generally comprises millions of troops and machines.

It also is indicative of the scale of conflict (the precise numbers do vary from "hundreds" to "thousands" depending on the source, be it novel or game fluff.) but as an order of magnitude estimate, it does indicate that, relative to its overall size, only a small percentage of the Imperium is truly "at war" at any given time. Which makes sense, because the Imperium could have no realistic chance of existing, much less expanding, if it were constantly at war everywhere (what passes for trade would be disrupted, as would industry, populations, etc.)

As often noted, the distinction is probably due to propoganda and perception - they're not ALWAYS at war all over, ,they're just taught to think that way and it usually "seems" to be (because, in truth, they possibly COULD be at war at any time - there's no way of telling where the next threat will strike from or where.)

Every planetary Lord in the imperium recruits, equips and maintains his own planetary defencee forces. The number and types of troops vary tremendously from world to world. The forces of a multi-billion populaton hive world like Necromunda are vastly different from those of a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza. Regardless of the size of its armies, each world is obliged to make 10% of its total armed forces available for recruitment into the Imperial Guard in any year.

An army is gathered from a number of worlds, usually over a radius of no more than ten thousand light years, and its theoretical size is a tenth of the entire armed forces of thsoe worlds. In practice, planetary Lords are often called upon to provide greater forces and more ferquently, especially if the immediate danger is great. On the other hand a planet which is far from any war zone may not be called upon to provide troops for manyy decades.

The "10% of PDF forces earmarked for the Guard" statement - its noted that tithe is a "standing" one - the first kind as noted in the more recent Guard Codex. IT also notes (which is the second kind of tithe mentioned in the latest Codex) that there is also the "conditional" tithe, that of additional troops provided should a situation (IE a war breaking out) merit it.

This also establishes that the "standing' Guard armies over a given time period are going to be at a definite, fixed number (10% of the PDFs will almost always be skimmed off, at some point at least) It also represents that this is probably a more professional, better trained, and more disciplined/dedicated segment of the Guard - their PDF training (and the "best' of the PDFs at that) augmented by additional Guard training as well as the providence of better equipment.

The other part, the "conditional" raisings, are probably much more "nebulous" in terms of quality, lower training standards, and probably prone to greater attirtion (offset by the potentially greater numbers.) Of course, if they survive, the survivors will probably be just as skilled and dangerous as the "standing" forces recruited from the PDFs.

Troops recruited from a world are formed into a single Imperial Guard regiment. As a result there is no such thing as a typical size for a regiment. REgiments can consist of a few hundred men or hundreds of thousands, depending on the size of their Lord's armies.

As has been mentioned in the past, there is no "fixed" regiment size. The Gudrunite rifles being the oft-repeated example, and the probable genesis of that notion is probably from here. This DOES represent a change from the Epic stuff (earlier stuff). Instead of forming a single "army", its forming a single "regiment" (although the distinction probahly is meaningless since the approximate numbers will be the same.) However, its also worth noting that this could vary depending on the "type" of tithe, the planet providing the troops, or both, since we know some planets do raise multiple regiments at one time (Tanith raised 3, from its PDF, prior to its death IIRC.) the massive "single regiment" raisings like the Gudrunite Rifles probably would be more commonly a "conditional" raising (which is basically what the Gudrunite rifles were - they were raised for an upcoming Crusade.)

AS there are approximately a million worlds in the Imperium the variety of uniforms, fighting stayles and levels of equipment can be hardly imagined. However, there are some very large planets which provide particularily vast forces, and a regiment from such a world might constitute almost an entire army.

this indicates some worlds (like Hive Worlds) provide substantially more troops than others, and that some planets "regiments" will be equivalent to armies on others. This implies that Hive Worlds provide at least many hundreds of thousands of troops. With 20,000 Hive worlds, this means at least four to twelve billion Guardsman from hives alone, minimum.

However, we know of the Gudrunite rifles providing upwards of 750,000, and Gudrun isn't remotely a Hive World (more a civilized one, if a rather major one) We could reasonably expect a hive World to provide millions of troops (at least an order of magnitude, given the difference in population.) Which also meshes with the fact we know of armies in the novels and such that do number in the millions. This leads to many hundreds of billions of troops from Hive worlds alone, which seems more likely.

The Imperial Guard makes up the vast bulk of the planetary defence forces of the Imperium's millions of worlds, it is a huge military force of Humans and abhumans.

No one knows the true size of the Imperial Guard, and only the huge Codex Exercitus, maintained on Terra by the highest ranks of the Administratum, contains the necessary data for such a calculation. Therea re some guesses and rumours - some say that if the whole of the Imperial Guard were paraded shoulder to shoulder they would cover the entire planetary surfaces of such-and-such a system, or stretch from Terra to such and such a star.

This probably shoudl be taken as something like hyperbole (though similar statements appear in the IIUP), but it does hint at many trillions or quadrillions of troops (or potentail troops - the Guard need have no fixed size, of course.)

Also note the "millions of worlds" reference.

For ten thousand years the Imperium has shielded and nurtured a million human worlds.

This indicates that the IoM hs comprised at least a million worlds since the Heresy era, and this probably is the absolute minimum. It also means 10,000 years of fluctuation (expansion as well as loss, with an emphasis on expansion) and probably lends greater credence to the "millions of worlds" mentioned in certain sources.

Civilized worlds: This is the widest category comrpising any world, generally self-sufficient, with a contemporary technology base that does not comply with other specification. Includes major sub-categories Cardinal Worlds[cc], Garden Worlds [cg], and Mining Worlds [cm]

Hive worlds: surface generally inhosptiable, even deadly to human life after centuries of processing. Urban conglomerations called Hives, many miles in height, are principle population centres. Factory, mining, and atmosphere processing are main industries.

Descriuption of Hive and civilized worlds form the 3rd edition rules.

Note that Hives are involved in "factory, mining, and atmosphere processing" The first two point to the high level of industrialization (and technical sophisticaiton) of such worlds. The latter points to a measure of terraforming capability for the Imperium - they can at least ensure breathable atmospheres on planets (because Hives are generally inhospitable.) This is also hined at in one of the Ciaphas Cain short stories.

Civilized Worlds are the "widest" category, implying that they are the most numerous and most varied, this further reinfores that manyn of the worlds in the Imperium are probably in the "civilized" category.

Also note the bit on "self sufficiency" - this may seem inconsistent with "fabric of the Imperium", which indicates that only a "few" worlds can be called "truly" self sufficient (and thus require much shipping), but this is not neccesarily so. The Imperium as such employs a high level of technology that is standardized, but not every planet can neccesarily produce every object (or even if they can, they don't all do it equally well.) Some worlds can produce something that others can't. And other worlds may possess resourcse that yet more planets need. Even if a planet has most of the basics (food, air, natural resources) it can still need other things that only another world can provide (A civilzied world may still need the advanced technological devices provided by forge and hive worlds, for example.)

In this context, we can consider the "self sufficiency" to be "mostly self sufficient" - but to maintain Imperium standard levels of technology and such, they do require resources and devices from other worlds (without which a civilized world may fall back to say, ,a more 20th century level of capability.) Agri worlds and mining worlds almost ceertainly are in a similar state. and Forge and hive Worlds, of course, need food and supplies from other worlds.

Civilised worlds are by far the most common of all the types of settlement in the Imperium. The people inhabit urban centres supplised by the planet's own natural resources and agriculture. These worlds are self-sufficient, ,and have reasonable, but not excessive populations. The social and technological base varies from world to world, although acess to fully-developed technolgy is usually possible.

Hive worlds are distinguished by vast, continent-spanning cities, often built high into the sky and deep below the ground.

Industrial worlds are given over to industrial processes such as manufacturing and mining . They are only sparsely populated, as most work is carried out by machinery and robots. most industrial worlds are developed only for mining and, even then, a planet must be extremely minereal rich if the effort is to be justified. Noramlly, manufacturing of goods takes place on ordinary, inhabited planets, because the costs and hazards of inter-stellar flight are considerable.

Again note that "civilized" worlds are self sufficient, (see above.) Also note the refrence to "access to fully developed technology" which would justify the explanation for the apparent disrecpancy etween self sufficiency and the "fabric of the Imperium" reference - shipping is probably that "very" acess, and the point of dependency for such otherwise self-sufficient worlds. (IE they can't produce or provide EVERYTHING.)

Industrial worlds are probably the early name for Forge Worlds, although it might be argued that some civilized worlds (and hive worlds) are very industrial (since Mining worlds are mentioned here, which are described also as being a civilized world. It also discusses briefly the scope and scale of manufacturing and production, and indicates that a 'industrial worlds/forge world" can expect high levels of automation (or could, at least.)

Hive worlds are mentioned and noticable for the reference to 'continent spanning cities" that extend high up into the sky and below grround. This obviously varies from hive world to hive world (Earth matches this, though other places like Stalinvast, Vervun, or Necromunda do not.) Its interesting insofar as it hints at how much firepower MIGHT be needed to destroy some 40K cities. Which is to say, alot. (Teratons or petatons, for the "continent spanning" ones, no doubt.)

[Adrian Laguna]

Said forces must be of the highest quality, and are thus invariably formed from a cadre of the world's best Planitary Defence Force units. They will have their own ranks, titles, formations, doctorines and histories, but regardless of all this, they will be devided into roughly equal units, consisting of several thousand warriors, and given a regimental number

The Guard demand the best of a planets PDF troops, and are generally split into regiments of several thousand. Cadia has been noted as being an exception to this as they choose their 10% randomly, this leway likely being granted due to its location.

For Cadia it's actually backward. Everyone goes into the Imperial Guard, except for a 10% picked at random, they are assigned to the Cadian PDF after their training is complete. Though are only marginally luckier than the other nine tenths of their fellow Cadian soldiers, since the proximity to the Eye of Terror makes even a place a disciplined as Cadia a hotbed for cult activity.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, when I first starrted this I said I was going to try to cover the other factions in 40K, although it would be much harder and more speculative. I then decided I would leave it at the imperium, but have again decided to (slowly) finish up the other factions., Right now, I'll cover the Eldar. Be warned, that htis is alot more speculative territory, largely because we have no hard numbers on the number of craft worlds, or eldar population, or anyhting like that. It also relies on alot of older sources, so it may be retconned at some later date.

With that said, here we go...

Massive and overwhelming, brutal and threatening, it seemed solid and formidably permanent in contrast to the slender, delicate, wraithbone-formed vessels of the eldar. Kariadryl could only imagine how many teeming thousands of humans there were aboard the massive cruiser, but he was all too painfully aware of the far lesser number of eldar - barely more than a thousand - who made up the crew of the Vual'en Sho..

And the humans had - how many, he wondered- thousands or tens of thousands of such vessels, spread all through the galaxy? In stark contrast, An-Iolsus could only muster a handful of ships, most of which were held in reserve for the defence of the crafworld itself. In his darkest thoughts, Kariadryl strongly doubed that the entire eldar diaspora, scattered as it was across dozens of craftworlds all through the galaxy, could gather its collected forces together in greater numbers than even the size of the single battlefleet grorup which the humans used to control this sector of their far-flung empire.

"dozens" of craftworlds speculated. Supposedly the craftworld could only muster a "handful" of ships, and doubts that the Eldar could amass more strength than a single "battlefleet" - presumably one of thsoe massive collections they gather for wartime situations (hundreds of ships.) This seems insanely conservative both in terms of ship numbers and craftworld numbers, and downright wrong in other ways.



"Doom of the Eldar - BFG"

Though Eldar corsairs are a constant threat to merchant shipping, they very rarely pose a major threat to Imperial battlefleets. The same cannot be said of the dozens of fleets of Eldar ships that protect each Eldar Craftworld. Each of these craftworld warfleets is a deadly and highly potent force that is capable of laying waste to an entire sub-sector.

"Dozens" fleets per craftworld, each fleet beign enough to destryo an entire subsector.

They [craftworlds] are not even akin to vast cities, as some of the largest star forts of the Imperium might be considered, but rather are immense spacefaring worlds accompanied by vast armadas, the likes of which might otherwise be set aside to defend an entire system or even sub-sector. Whole battlefleets cluster around key points and stations all across the thousands of miles of the craftworld's exterior as smaller, nimbler craft rush and surge across its surfacee in a cnstant shimmering patrol.

Eldar fleets are considered large enough to defend an "entire subsector" - this might suggest Eldar fleets are around 1/6 or 1/8 the size of a Battlefleet (or that battlefleets are 6-8x larger. The conservative end of the scale would match closely with the 50-75 fleet size, bu the other would be nearly twice as large.

The sheer size of a craftworld means that each individual vessel possesses several full battlefleets, stationed at convenient points along the craftworld as it journeys through space. Each fleet might typically numbver from ten to twenty warships and is commanded by an Eldar Admiral

Eldar craftworlds possess "Several" battlefleets, contrasted with the implied "Dozens" above, unless "Battlefleet" refers to specific kinds of craft.

Each fleet numbers "ten to twenty" ships, this puts a minimum of around 20-60 ships on a Craftworld fleet.

The shadowhunter patrols usually remain independent of these battlefleets, ,moving to and fro abou thte craftworld as they please.

In addition to the "battlefleets" above, the Eldar have large numbers of escorts (the shadowhunters) that form independent elements. L ogically we could deduce these are the "other" fleets in the "dozens of fleets" mentioned above, while the "battlefleets" represent cruisers and battleships. If we assume the other "fleets" refer to squadrons, we might assume that there are 2-6 escorts per "fleet". This means at least 48-144 escorts per craftworld (might be severla times this easily.)

If we assume 10-20 escorts (as per above) per "fleet" - this is aroudn 240-480 escorts per craftworld, minimum.

No matter how you look at it, its likely each craftw orld has many hundreds of ships, total.

<<<>>>

Yriel's Raiders

It is impossible to say with certainty how many craftworlds there are. They were built many millenia ago in great urgency and in times of unimaginable peril

The number of craftworlds isn't precisely known. This conflicts with the "dozens" mentioned in - "Shadow Point", or more likely, represents a drastic understimate (the Farseer in the novel tends to do that alot, it seems.)

<<<>>>

Codex Imperialis

A grgeat deal of the Eldar's own understanding of their origins was lost when the original Eldar home world and thousands of colony planets were destroyed during a catastrophic collapse more than ten thousand years ago.

"thousands" of colony worlds long ago. This also implies the scope of the Eldar Empire (as well as the potential planet numbers in the Eye of Terorr.) Note that if "billions" died in the Fall, ,this implies eldar Worlds held populations in the millions.

<<<>>>

Codex Craftworld Eldar

These early craftworlds were considerably smaller than now but, none the less, they were still whole self-contained communities housing hundreds of eldar families. A typical trading mission might take the craftworld away from its home planet for centuries, travelling thousands of light years beyond Eldar space before returning home.

"hundreds of families" implies each craftworld held somewhere in the thousands to possibly low tens of thousands of people

Many craftworlds lingered too long trying ot rescue their kin. Driftng in orbit at the moment of the Fall, they were destroyed by the psychic overspill or sucked into the warp and consumed.

"Many" craftworld were lost. Also some of theme vidently tried to save parrts of the planetary populations.

This area [Eye of Terror] lies to the galactic north and east of Earth and forms a circular "eye" shape approximately ten thousand light years across at its widest point.

EoT is 10,000 LY across, at least according to this.

<<<>>>

Rogue Trader - Eldar

Other Eldar, those who had resisted the decline of their civilization, wer better protected. Even so, many billions died even as they fled in the giant trading ships, but some survived, protected by their mental resislience or by the psychically impervious Wraithbone structure of the spacecraft themselves.

"billions" died on the trading ships. Going by population estimates of "thousands" (or possibly tens of thousnads) per craftworld, even allowing for some modification due to rescued plnaetbownd populations (say millions).. you're still looking at manyy hundreds or thousands of craftworld. Of course, not all of them will survive.

Their numbers are now a tiny fraction of the teeming billions whch one spread across the universe.

A "tiny fraction" of Eldar survive from many billions (Stated above and below). Implies the current Eldar population osmewhere in the millions, ,probably.(tens or hundreds of millions would be my guess.)

Since the Fall, the Eldar craftworlds have establsihed many colonies of their own. These colonies are not independent, but remain a part of their society, and provide troops and raw materials for the home Craftworld.
.
The number of colony planets associated with a Craftworld is tremendously variable, some have hundreds while others have one or two. most have about a dozen.

- this impiles the Eldars have other planets now as well as the craftworlds, implying huhndreds or thousands of colonies.

Since the Fall the original Craftworlds have grown considerably in size, so that they are noew ten or a hundred times larger than the original trading ships which lie at their cores.

Craftowrlds are 10-100x larger.. this might also suggest the populations grew as well (hundreds of thousands or millions)

<<<>>>

Codex Eldar (2006)

On hundreds of paradise worlds seeded across the stars, all Eldar pursued their inclinations according to their own will

"hundrds" of worlds, rather than t housands in the Eldar Empire. This is probably conservative, but fits the "thousands" statement frfom before.

Billions upon billions of Eldar screamed aloud in agony and fell dead.

implies minimum of 4 billion eldar population (and dying) A fraction thereof would be millions or tens of millions at least.

When their civilisation was all powerful the eldar settled many new worlds.

...

Hundreds of otherwise uninhabitable worlds blossomed into life and became paradises ripe for settlement. Most of these worlds were destroyed during the Fall, swallowed into the Eye of terror.

"hundreds" of inhabited worlds again, most swallowed in the EoT.

<<<>>>

Rogue trader

Each craft [world] is an independent Eldar nation, with its own culture, leaders, history, traidtions, and attitudes to other races. Each is home to several thousand Eldar - often as many as ten thousand individuals.

Craftworld population at least "thousands", or around 10,000 average. Assuming a galactic Eldar population of "millions" this implies many hundreds of craft worlds easily.


Conclusion: With a minimum of "dozens" of craftworld and many hundreds of ships per world, we're definitely looking at many thousands of eldar ships, at a minimum. In all probability, this is conservative - there are bound to be hundreds of craft worlds, each with many hundresd of ships... for many tens of thousands of Eldar ships. Possibly even a few hundred thousand. Most of those (the vast majority) are bound to be escorts, but 10% or so probably represent cruisers and battleship-grade vessels.

In terms of Eldar, the craftworld eldar are porbably the most numerous in terms of naval elements. The Dark Eldar (with only one "world' cormorragh) almost certainly have fewer (hundreds or thousands of ships) The corsair fleets (outcasts I belive) could be more numerous, but probably not vastly more than the Craftworld Eldar. Exodites probably aren't a factor, nor are Harlequins.

Other considerations: Pre Fall Eldar civilization seems to represent many thousands of worlds, while post-fall probably has simialr numbers now (Exodite worlds, the cratworld colonies, etc.)

[Lost Soal]

In terms of Eldar, the craftworld eldar are porbably the most numerous in terms of naval elements. The Dark Eldar (with only one "world' cormorragh) almost certainly have fewer (hundreds or thousands of ships) The corsair fleets (outcasts I belive) could be more numerous, but probably not vastly more than the Craftworld Eldar. Exodites probably aren't a factor, nor are Harlequins.

According to Brothers of the Snake, the Dark Eldar also have control of worlds other than comorragh.

[Connor MacLeod]

In terms of Eldar, the craftworld eldar are porbably the most numerous in terms of naval elements. The Dark Eldar (with only one "world' cormorragh) almost certainly have fewer (hundreds or thousands of ships) The corsair fleets (outcasts I belive) could be more numerous, but probably not vastly more than the Craftworld Eldar. Exodites probably aren't a factor, nor are Harlequins.

According to Brothers of the Snake, the Dark Eldar also have control of worlds other than comorragh.

Can't be very many though. As a rule they usually don't represent all that huge a threat on the galactic scale (no more than the Tau do, I'd say.) The regular Craftworld Eldar seem to be a bigger one.

Edit: moreover having finished reading "Crimson TearS", where you had a DE trying to drop a planet into the warp to create a new "Haven" for DE, and this being a big deal, tends to reinforce (in my mind) that they just lack the resourcs of their craft world or exodite counterparts.

[Connor MacLeod]

Next up, the Orks. Gotta love Da Boyz, mainly because they're potentially as big a threat as the Tyranids, if they ever managed to somehow unite (and this fact will be repeatedly hammered home in sources, believe me.)

Rogue Trader

Page 185

Ork Space comprises a large compact area to the west of the galactic pole. In all it probably numbers as many as ten thousand habitable solar systems.

1st edition Rogue Trader. This clearly got retconned later on in size because they're as large as the Imperium (but more decentralized) as well as spreading across much of the galaxy.


Page 186

Instead, their worlds are divided into rival, inter-warring empires, most comprising only one or two planets, with the largest about twenty worlds. THere are thousands of these small empires, each ruled over by a strong warlord.

"thousands" of Empires, each comprised of only a couple planets, with the largest ever being ~20 worlds. Like the numbers, this too probably got retconned, but I haven't seen any definites on just how MANY in an empire or numbers of Empires. Given large-scale incidents like Armageddon, major Ork incursions seem to be based on a powerful leader unifying a number of empires/tribes under one banner and pooling the resources. (like Ghazgahkull, who pulled together some 12 separate empires for his assault.)

Given that, and given any other information, "thousands" probably can mean many hundreds of thousands of Empires. The number of planets could be taken as an approximate average, but larger empires may be possible. In the end it doesn't really matter how many planets per Empire, because most major incursions/WAAAGHs are going to be composed of multiple empires as it is.

***

Waagggh the Orks

Page 6

Ork civilisation is now faced with a major problem: the maintenance of technology. The Orks have found the obvious solution in their use of slaes. Apartt from the Mekboyz, who are Ork swith a residual, innate talent for technology, orks rely on enslaved Humans and other aliens in their workshops and factories. More importantly, they rely on tribute exacted from vassal alien communities. This tribute is paid in the form of armaments and technology. Sometimes whole communities and planets are occupied by Ork warriors, enslaved, and put to work making armaments.

AFter several viscious and destructive wars, many alien communities willingly manufacture equipment for the Orks as bribes to keep them away, or as tribute to provide protection.

only included this to clarify the kinds/types of worlds an Ork "Empire" might include, and explain how Orks manage to compete in 40K - on the back of servant races or slaves as well as "Ork proper" worlds - thuis might explain why they're so massive.

Page 8

Orks live on innumerable worlds.

- again now instead of 10,000 worlds its "innumerable" - it does get (vaguely) enumerated later.

Page 90

There are countless Ork settlements of every conceivable kind scattered on planets throughout the universe. In addition, there are settlements of Ork tribes that perpetually drift through space aboard space hulks, as well as war bands that are in occupation of alien worlds.

"Countless" settlements, as well as constantly mobile tribes aboard space hulks. Note they also make a distinction for "conquered" worlds as well as outright Ork settlements.

Codex ORks (1999 edition)

Page 2

In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth is followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another. But once in a generation an Ork leader will emerge who is powerful enough to defeat his rivals and dominate their tribes. His success will draw others and soon a great Ork Waaagh! is underway, a movement of millions; part migration, part holy Jihad as the Orks seek new worlds to conquer and races to enslave.

The Orks occupy more planets in the galaxy than any other race, implying they have at least millions (which is what the Imperium has.) but unlike the Imperium, they are more scattereda and


Page 3

Early estimates place the attacking ground forces at the equivalent of sixteen regiments, with one hulk, four cruisers, and twenty plus attack ships supporting them from orbit.

- Example of one Ork force I could find (aside from Ghaz in Armageddon). I'll be using this and Ghaz as the baseline for fleet/troop estmates.


PAge 33

Attempts to penetrate the so-called Ork enclaves of Gathrog and Dregruk in the southern regions of the Segmentum have proven unsuccessful. The ORks have dominated these areas unchecked since before the founding of the Imperium and it is, quite reasonably, surmised that within an area of only a few light years there are tens of millions of the creatures. It is possible that in such conditions the Ork's physical proportions are evne more pronounced, with whole planetary populations the size of the sub-type known to our warrios as "Skarboyz"

Note that on the size chart (Skarboyz are "veterans") they show up as beinga round 2-2.5 meters tall and about 1.5 meters across. Gives another potential way to estimate number, though the populations and size seem to vary.


Epic 40K Armies book

PAge 41

Luckily the billions of Orks spread throughout the galaxy spend so much time fighting each other that their desire for battle is generally sated unless they find themselves faced with an obvious threat. If all the Orks were ever to band together in a single Waaagh nothing in the galaxy would have the power to stop them.

Repetition of before, this time though there's a specific number of "billions" of orks, though this could be a dramatic underestimate (much in the same way "billions" of Imperial Guardsman exist in the galaxy)

3rd edition rules:

PAge 116

Spread as they are across the entire Sector, in numbers rivalling that of humanity, these savage creatures know only war.

...

Orks have been fighting against us on hundreds of worlds and throughout the depths of open space, especially around the Denebian astroid belt.

Here stated to be "sopread out across an entire Sector" in "humanity-rivalling" numbers. This seems to imply on one hand the Orks are comprised in a whole sector (about a few hundred light yearS) but their overall numbers match huhmaity. That is possible, but seems questionable given the previous stuff.

Alternately, the idea might be that the number of Orks in the Sector is of similiar numbers to the number of (Imperium) humans in the sector. This seems liklier. This would again also infer similar numbers to the Imperium's popualtion,


Codex Armageddon

Page 6

The monitor station's final reports indicated an Ork fleet moving into the system, comrpising 50 Ork cruisers and over 300 escort vessels accompanying at least four space hulks.

Minimum numbers of the Ork fleet at aRmagedon. They get bigger later.

Page 6

By their last count, the combined Ork fleets numbered in excess of 2,000 ships and at least 12 space hulks, the largest number of huulks to assault a world of the Imperium in its 10,000 year history.

Revised Ork numbers. May not have been total numbers even now.

Codex Imperialis:


PAge 50

The Ork racec is spread throughout the galaxy much like mankind, but unlike mankind the Orks are divided into many thousands of independent empires, each led by an Ork Warlord. Warlords strive to defeat their neighbors whether they are humans, Eldar, or even other Orks. If successful, a Warlord expands his territories by conquest, and continues to do so until he is defeated. Even if a Warlord wins battle after battle, plundering many worlds and scattering the armies of the Imperium before him, he will eventually overreach himself. This is simply a part of Ork nature! Orks always attack before they are ready adn they never think beyond the next battle.

This is from Codex Imperialis and cnofirms the whole "spread throughout the galaxy" bit, though it also retains the "thousands of Empires"

What has become clear is that the Orks are the remnants of a once diverse race of green-skinned creatures whose colonies extended over most of the galaxy.

Orks formerly occupied "most of the galaxy"

Epic Armageddon

Page 65

[quiote]
To their dismay, the Imperial Navy ships encountered dozens of crude asteroid fortresses, or 'Roks', in the normally vulnerable tail of the Ork fleets.[/quote][/quote]

At Armageddon there were "dozens" of Roks . Roks are of interest because of what they represent in fleet numbers (addressed later.)

Page 104

Luckily, the billions of Orks spread throughout the galaxy spend so much time fighting each other that their desire for battle is generally sated unless they find themselves faced with an obvious threat. If all the Orks were ever to band together into a single Waaagh, nothing in the galaxy would ahve the power to stop them.

Reiteration of earlier information.

Page 105

A warbad can comprise anywhere from between thirty and three hundred Boyz plus their assorted war machiens and is commanded by a large and aggrgessive Ork chieftan aclled the Warboss and his personal retinue of Ork Nobz.

...

A tribe can comprise anything from several hundred to tens of thousands of Orks and will usually control an entire continent or world. More commonly, a vaguely habitable world will sustain several Ork tribes in a more or less perpetual state of war with each other until they join in a Waaagh agains tnon ORks.

The Implication here is that Orks, while as numerous as humanity, are not as densely populated on a planet as humanity. The idea seems to be that there are only hundreds of thousands or millions per planet (as opposed to the billions or trillions some planets can hold.) The numbers could thus balancec out (more planets than the Imperium, but lower popualtions.)

Page 108

Ghazgahkull pulled off the seemingly impossible by uniting over a dozen of the sector's most notorious Warlords with the promise of a grreat and glorious fight in the name of Gork and Mork. With a force numbering into the millions, Ghazghkull's rise to a Warlord of such stature has been nothing short of meteoric,

Ghazzie pulled together twelve warlords (well "over twelve" and thus a dozen empires) for his efforts. Given the ship numbers above, this allows us to work out numbers on Orks.


******

With all that said, ,time to go into the breakdown:

Territory

This is fairly straightforward. We know they are at LEAST comparable to the Imperium in size, so they ought to have many millions of worlds, possibly more. Probably not more than a billion or so, since habitable planets aren't common and AFAIK not even they occupy a major percentage of them.

Moreover, while they are comparable in size and scope to the Imperium, this size is offset by the fact that they lack the cohesion or long range travel/communication ability that the Imperium possesses. Thus, their ability to act over long distances is severely curtailed, and it leads to the "thousands" of Empires mentioned (which may be more like tens or even hundreds of thousands of Empires.) Although if a WAAAGH arises, they are perfectly capable of uniting, for short term goals at least.

Populations/troop numbers
Billions, ,at least, but probably much more than that. Their numbers are said to be comaprable to humanity's, which suggests trillions or quadrillions of Orks alone. This can be confirmed by an estimate of the number of orks per planet (hundreds of thousands to millions) multiplied by the estimated number of worlds.. which yields half a trillion to many trillions of orks total. Presumably these numbers don't includ e other orkoids like Gretchin and snotlings, though.

A third way to look at it: Going by the "tens of millions of creatures within a few light years" estimate, and given the size of the galaxy (a disparity of many tens or hundreds of millions times between the radius given above and the radius of the galaxy) there coudl be many quadrillions of orks, even assuming that the figure was not uniform or allowing for it to be a few percent accurate.

Note that on the "quadrillions" scale, note that given the presumed lower "planetary density" for Orks (even factoring in the other sub-species) this almost certainly means the Orks have many more planets (within reason.) There are of course an unknown (but presumably large) number of Orks who encompass purely "spaceborne" communities (like Space Hulks.) (For example, we're looking at an average number of orks being tens of millions per planet, ,spread over hundreds of millions of planets.) I'd guess that some refrences refer to "just " orkoids (like the "billions" bit or the number of orks per world/tribe and number of planets.), while others (ork numbers rivalling humanity) factor in the other sub-species (gretchin and snotlings.)

Of course, even if the number of orks/orkoids is "smaller" than the overall population of humanity, the fact remains that a higher percentage of them are actually viable fighters/active fighters, so the danger can still be significant despite a large numerical disparity. Particularily given their resilience and reproductive capabilities.

Fleet size

We know there are "Thousands" of Empires. We also have two estimates for Warlord fleet strengths: We have two numerical breakdowns. The first estimates 1 space hulk, 4 cruisers, and a score or more of "attack ships" (escrots?) That leads us to estimate many thousands of "space hulks' (IE battleships or battleships equivlaent.) minimum, many thousands/tens of thousands of cruisers, and tens/hundreds of thousands of attack ships (a similar distribution compared to Imperial ships.)

The other estimate is based on the ARmageddon numbers, which was derived from a dozen major warlords (or at least they seemed major.) Twelve space hulks and 2000+ other ships, which is an average of ~166 ships per space hulk. Assumign one Space Hulk per warlord (whcih seems reasonable) thats many hundreds of thousands of ships (and thousand sof Space hulks, again.)

For a more accurate breakdown, we knmow at least 4 Space huulks were escorted by ~150 cruisers and 300 escorts. That works out to rughly 38 cruisers and 75 escorts per Space hulk, for "thousnads" of Space hulks, 70-80,000 cruisers minimum, and 150,000+ escorts. Not onyl are they conservative because the numbers of the Ork fleet at Armageddon were not precise, but the number of "empires" could be easily higher by an order of magnitude or more. Thus, its quite possible/likely that Ork fleet numbers not only can match the Imperium, but quite likely exceed them by several times if not an order of magnitude (at least.)

These do not include Roks, but Roks are ridiculously easy to build and adapt (orkoid equivalent of system defence ships I'd gues) so they could easily match/exceed the "regular" fleet numbers (IE doublling, tripling, or more any estimate.) Likewise, since Ork "shipbuilding" mainly comprises salvaging of and refitting hulks, their "cosntrcuton rates" are not neccesariyl consistent but rapid, if the supply of hulks is steady (in wartime, no reason it wouldn't be.)

Bear in mind, of course, the same lack of coordination and travel distance affect them on the fleet scale, so while the numbers are formidable, their inability to coordinate effectively over great distances will limit the threat those numbers represent. Also, while Ork tech might be equal/superior in some ways to the Imperium, it is still deficinet in a number of other useful ones (accuracy and computers for one thing, acceeleration another.) that can offset the numerical advantage severely. Nonetheless, they are NOT an insignifcant threat under the right circumstances (mainly at short ranges or up close, and where their superior numbers can tell.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Tyranids. My most straightforward example. Most of it comes from Rogue Trader.

We know each Hive fleet comprises "millions" of vessels. There are at least 9 kjnown hive fleets, but Rogue Trader mentioned at least 13, and probably many more (hundreds if not thousands.) I've already provided the quotes here on page 200, so I'm not going to waste breath reposting it.

The general consensus on fleet size is at least tens or hundreds of millions of ships, possibly well into the billions (or more)

It is worth noting that Tyranids apparently consume far more biomass than they acutally are seen employing look here. Given that scores or huundreds of worlds have probably been cleansed by the Tyranids, this can amount to around 1e23 kg worth of mass - enough for countless trillions of ISD-sized vessels. A single planet alone could, in theory, supply enough mass to create whole new hive fleets, in other words.

Populations: Many billions per hive fleet... this means tens or hundreds of billions minimum, more likely many trrillions of Tyranids, many of them highly specialized warrior forms. Again, the exact numbers need not be precise, because the inherent expendability of all Tyranid organisms means that they'll usually get recycled at some point, and any planet alone could provide countless trillions (or quadrillions) of troops from its own biomass should circumstances dictate.

Territory: None known, at least not in this galaxy or within the Imperium. Tyranids consume the biomass of planets and leave them stripped as barren rocks, but the above link does imply they might have some territories somewhere - perhaps key industrial bases where the biomass stripped from other planets is sent to build more Tyranids.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, my count reveals the following as far as "fleets" to do:

Tau (and probably others like Demiurg, and Kroot and such)

Chaos

Necrons.

I probably won't touch Chaos or the Tau for some time. The information is there and I have a vague idea where to look, but its tied up in all that data and I don't want to pick through all it. So I think I'll be letting the fleet thread rest some until I come on those particular tidbits, ,collate them, and post them later.

The Necrons, though... well, to be honest? We don't know much about them, AFAIK. The closest to "numbers" we get is something about "hundreds" of tomb worlds in one of the Necron books, but that's all. With "millions" per tomb world, thats some hundreds of millions or billions, but that's a minimum.

We know the Necrons were a large (galaxy and/or multi-galactic) power, which implies they at least HAD massive numbers and logiistics and industrial capability of ships during their war with the Old Ones. We might inf er at least a similar scale to the Eldar/Imperium in this regard, at least.

The only problem with that is:

- First, I am not aware of any source indicating just how much of the Necrons power might have survived to present times. Only a handful of known C'tan exist or are emerging, and we dont know what fragment of the total Necron/C'Tan power that represents.

The other problem, of course, is that those C'tan (like the Deciever and IIRC the Dragon) who are active are also recruiting/harvesting/rebuilding their power bases/fleets/numbers and the like. These assets too (to my knowledge) remain virtually unknown.

If anyone has more evidence/better evidence for Necron Scope/numbers/assets and the like , I'd be more than happy to see it.

As for the rest, I think the fleet thread will now remain dormant for awhile. I'm a bit tired of it again...

[Falkenhayn]

Some requests.

Should we get into a debate on another site, can we use your calculations, and how would you like to be cited?

[Teleros]

The Necrons, though... well, to be honest? We don't know much about them, AFAIK. The closest to "numbers" we get is something about "hundreds" of tomb worlds in one of the Necron books, but that's all. With "millions" per tomb world, thats some hundreds of millions or billions, but that's a minimum.

The only thing I've seen that comes close to saying how many Necrons there actually are would be that bit of text in the back of their codex penned by some Imperial bod (which mentioned only billions of necrons, although I forget if it was 10 or 100 or whatever). Of course, I'd hardly cite that as an authoritative source given the point of view of the author.

[Connor MacLeod]

Some requests.

Should we get into a debate on another site, can we use your calculations,

Yes, you are certainly free to; I can't stop you. I would requrest that you make sure you understand them and are able to explain them/debate them properly - I have seen people use my calcs without really understanding the underlying logic (basically just copying what I say and saying its right).

IMHO that sort of approach is incredibly stupid and it doesn't help you win the arugment (you just look like you're mindlessly cuting and pasting random shit, and it makes me look foolish by extension.) Particularily when some of the calcs tend to venture into the realm of not being outright stated or require alot of supplementary research and analysis to make sense of (like lasgun cauterization.)

If a person is not sure about something I have calced or done, I would suggest they PM me for clarifications/advice/explanations before using them.

and how would you like to be cited?

Simply linking to the material or cutting/pasting it and citing the location ought to suffice (much the same way I will lilnk to or cite relevant partts of Mike's site if I need to.) I don't see any particular need for citation beyond that.

Edit: I probably should add I made a small modification to reflect new information I pulled from Ghostmaker and "Chapter War" in terms of PDF force and planetary population ratios, which acted as a double check on the numbers for forccecs I outlined for the Imperium previously.

[Falkenhayn]

Some requests.

Should we get into a debate on another site, can we use your calculations,

Yes, you are certainly free to; I can't stop you. I would requrest that you make sure you understand them and are able to explain them/debate them properly - I have seen people use my calcs without really understanding the underlying logic (basically just copying what I say and saying its right).

Alright. I'll be warry of doing so then; physics isn't exactly my strong point. In fact, I'll probably refrain from doing anything with your numbers, aside from contributing some data here and there.

[Cykeisme]

This might constitute a derail, how realistic is the prominence of all the ground combat around which 40k primarily revolves?

With similar levels of firepower to SW, I'd imagine ship-to-ship weaponry in 40k easily wipes clean cities, continents and worlds.. and this is a universe without planetary/theatre shielding to justify the importance of ground combat.
I understand none of the races/factions involved have the kind of capship-churning industrial capacity of SW, but still.

I'm 100% all for badass superhuman warrior monks, mind you.. just a reality check of sorts.

[Vanas]

As I recall, particularly important places do have shielding. Holy Terra, for one. Considering they've got shields on Titans, I guess it's possible there's an intermediate option. Don't know enough background there.

More to the point, planets are valuable. The Imperium needs them for resources and manpower, and of course, it is their God-Emperor given right to smack the hell out of anyone who happens to be sitting on said planet to start with and bring it into the Imperium. If the planet is now an attractive asteroid belt or a series of radioactive crates held together by the ruin of the crust, it's not very useful.

Tyranid and Chaos invasions both frequently begin with cults lurking in the bottom of a hive city, leading to PDF and IG deployment. Blasting the hell out of the place with your lance batteries might not do the city any good. And while we're on the subject, I imagine that a few thousand guardsmen cost rather less then opening up with a full broadside.

[Imperial Overlord]

This might constitute a derail, how realistic is the prominence of all the ground combat around which 40k primarily revolves?

With similar levels of firepower to SW, I'd imagine ship-to-ship weaponry in 40k easily wipes clean cities, continents and worlds.. and this is a universe without planetary/theatre shielding to justify the importance of ground combat.
I understand none of the races/factions involved have the kind of capship-churning industrial capacity of SW, but still.

There are a number of factors which come into play to limit ground bombardment.

1) The IoM thinks long term. An intact and productive planet is worth losing millions of men over. IG troopers are expendable.

2) There is theatre shielding for large structures (several hives are described as having them) as well as ground based defences such as fighter bases, torpedo silos, and defence laser emplacements which can retaliate against capital ships. Its not worth losing a cruiser trying to bombard an enemy position when you can instead land on the other side of the continent and overrun the position with countless regiments of Imperial Guard

3) When they have the forces in position and they want to, yes they can blow a planet to hell and back. Exterminatus covers the most extreme types of bombardments, but they are capable less destructive attacks. Lances are generally used for precision attacks and bombardment cannons to just wipe out everything in an area.

[NecronLord]

Yup. Replacing a mid level capital starship is about seven years tithe for a medieval world. You could get at least seventy regiments for the same replacement cost.

[NecronLord]

The Necrons, though... well, to be honest? We don't know much about them, AFAIK. The closest to "numbers" we get is something about "hundreds" of tomb worlds in one of the Necron books, but that's all. With "millions" per tomb world, thats some hundreds of millions or billions, but that's a minimum.

It's more like hundreds of thousands, in Caves of Ice, the planet appears to hold three hundred thousand necrons, and it's supposedly a big tomb, by the standards of those known at the time. The only place we've seen with millions (specifically, a million, but that was only in one great chamber, there might be more) was Naogeddon itself, which may well be the homeworld, and was certainly the resting place of the Deceiver. I'll put up quotes tomorrow, if you like.

- First, I am not aware of any source indicating just how much of the Necrons power might have survived to present times. Only a handful of known C'tan exist or are emerging, and we dont know what fragment of the total Necron/C'Tan power that represents.

Well. There's two, (CS Goto's terrible tome Dawn of War: Ascension seems to suggest otherwise, though, but that's got some whacky shit in it and hasn't had any impact on the rest of the canon) active, and four in total that survived the war. IIRC, Xenology mentions another name, but seems to suggest that it may have been killed.

The other problem, of course, is that those C'tan (like the Deciever and IIRC the Dragon) who are active are also recruiting/harvesting/rebuilding their power bases/fleets/numbers and the like. These assets too (to my knowledge) remain virtually unknown.

The Dragon's sleeping on Mars, the Nightbringer is the other active one.

Oddly enough, the Horus Heresy Artbooks have a bit about the priests of the Mechanicus being influenced by 'His [the Void Dragon/Omnissiah's] silver dreams.' One wonders if they're meant to have learnt from his telepathic influence or something...

If anyone has more evidence/better evidence for Necron Scope/numbers/assets and the like , I'd be more than happy to see it.

As for the rest, I think the fleet thread will now remain dormant for awhile. I'm a bit tired of it again...

There's a fair bit to work from on how active they are - they seem to carry out about one raid per decade, or thereabouts, that's detected by the Imperium, and have so far only encountered Necron battleships on seven occasions (maybe eight or nine, after the 13th Crusade) - but what they have still dormant is unknown.

Of course, given their superior strategic powers, and potentially fast rate of production even a very small number of necrons could potentially be an overwhelming threat. A million necrons isn't that much if they stand and fight, but they can essentially strike anywhere they please.

This of course, means that quantifying what precisely they've got in space assets is difficult; there could be as few as a score of necron ships buzzing around the galaxy like caffinated hummingbirds.

The scope of their empire; Nightbringer suggests quite strongly that they were multi-galactic, but that could be hyperbole - (there's a bit in a pair of books by the same author where one character goes off through a warp tear, and supposedly brings ruin to entire galaxies and/or universes in Khorne's name, which seems grossly inconsistant with the rest of the setting) - after all. I'll post the quote tomorrow.

[NecronLord]

The only thing I've seen that comes close to saying how many Necrons there actually are would be that bit of text in the back of their codex penned by some Imperial bod (which mentioned only billions of necrons, although I forget if it was 10 or 100 or whatever). Of course, I'd hardly cite that as an authoritative source given the point of view of the author.

I believe it runs, "There may be millions of necrons in stasis, but there are billions of men ready to stand against them" or something. That, too, shall be posted tomorrow.

[Connor MacLeod]

This might constitute a derail, how realistic is the prominence of all the ground combat around which 40k primarily revolves?

With similar levels of firepower to SW, I'd imagine ship-to-ship weaponry in 40k easily wipes clean cities, continents and worlds.. and this is a universe without planetary/theatre shielding to justify the importance of ground combat.
I understand none of the races/factions involved have the kind of capship-churning industrial capacity of SW, but still.

I'm 100% all for badass superhuman warrior monks, mind you.. just a reality check of sorts.

As others have already said, human lives are cheaper than starships and other sophisticated tech (especially for the AdMech. The novel "storm of Iron" is a great example there, but so is any Forge World.)

That said, they DO tend ot have a preference to blast away a planet from orbit if the location is unimportant. This crops up at least once in the Soul Drinkers novels IIRC, but alot of times in the Ghosts novels (Fortis Binary and the Deathworld with the STC in First and Only, several times in Ghostmaker, the planet in His Last Command, etc. Also the Last chancers novels as well.) generally its alot simpler and less complicated than lugging around and deploying the massive numbers of troops needed to take it.

However, ,there are certain targets (Forge worlds, ,agri worlds, etc.) that are deemed too imporrtant to just casually bombard. For all its power orbital bombardment in 40K is not what we can call "accurate" without precise targeting data, and that isn't always available at those yields (tossing a multi-TT detonation onto a agri world is going to do bad things to the ecology, and the AdMech won't appreciate the Navy blasting its precious technology to bits with its guns.) In those cases its generally less destructive (at least relatively and ecologically speaking) to use a grround war, even if it does mean horrific casualties.

And there are occasional opponents that you cannot effectively root out short of exterminatus via orbital bombardment (Orks on Armageddon, Tyranids on MacCragge.) which means that you have to expend massive numbers of troops to pacify the infestation, because the planet is too important/well regarded to just abandon or exterminate.

[NecronLord]

I believe it runs, "There may be millions of necrons in stasis, but there are billions of men ready to stand against them" or something. That, too, shall be posted tomorrow.

"With the Emperor's Guidance we will prevail, there may be millions, or tens of millions of Necrons in stasis waiting to emerge, but there are billions of Humans ready to destro them, and destroy them we will."

Inquisitor Arrian.

Of course, the only characters in the book who're likely to have actual knowledge of how many necrons there are the C'tan.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's more like hundreds of thousands, in Caves of Ice, the planet appears to hold three hundred thousand necrons, and it's supposedly a big tomb, by the standards of those known at the time. The only place we've seen with millions (specifically, a million, but that was only in one great chamber, there might be more) was Naogeddon itself, which may well be the homeworld, and was certainly the resting place of the Deceiver. I'll put up quotes tomorrow, if you like.

Please do. IIRC in Caves of Ice, however, that was larrgely a conjecture on Cain's part. He did not literally go through and count how many Necrons there were in the tomb, and he was only in/saw one part of it (which was what he based his estimate on.)

I also vaguely remember that some other source(S) might have suggested millions of them, but I'd have to go back and look. I know I've seen it elsewhere.

Anywys, considering they're "order of magntidue" calcs anyhow, I don't see much difference between "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" anyhow.

Well. There's two, (CS Goto's terrible tome Dawn of War: Ascension seems to suggest otherwise, though, but that's got some whacky shit in it and hasn't had any impact on the rest of the canon) active, and four in total that survived the war. IIRC, Xenology mentions another name, but seems to suggest that it may have been killed.

Okay.

The Dragon's sleeping on Mars, the Nightbringer is the other active one.

Isn't there implication that the Necrons are active on Mars, though? The "visitation" by some of their ships? And IIRC I vaguely recall Abbadon having some daemon-provided glimpse/vision suggesting that as well.

I did remember Nightbringer, I just wasn't sure if I considered him "Active" since he was sucking energy from a dead star to bolster himself (and I don't remember any mention of him awakening his forces yet.)

Oddly enough, the Horus Heresy Artbooks have a bit about the priests of the Mechanicus being influenced by 'His [the Void Dragon/Omnissiah's] silver dreams.' One wonders if they're meant to have learnt from his telepathic influence or something...

Either that or the Deceiver is manipulating the AdMech. I'd bet on the Void Dragon though (IIRC he was more mechanical than others.) Though IIRC there was one AdMech guy who went insane from a "visit" tot he Outsider too... so we can't count him out quite...

Wasn't there something about the AdMech stamping out new Necrons (or at least some sect of them, anywys.) for one of the C'tan?

There's a fair bit to work from on how active they are - they seem to carry out about one raid per decade, or thereabouts, that's detected by the Imperium, and have so far only encountered Necron battleships on seven occasions (maybe eight or nine, after the 13th Crusade) - but what they have still dormant is unknown.

So aorund eight or nine "visits" at least, over a century or so. The only question is - how many people do they harvest in a given "visit?"

It does occur to me if they're "recruiting" again they probably have some fairly significant depletion. The fact that they still want to "wall off" the Warp from realspace is something of an indicator as well (even now they can't quite win through sheer force of arms, at least not presently.)

Of course, given their superior strategic powers, and potentially fast rate of production even a very small number of necrons could potentially be an overwhelming threat. A million necrons isn't that much if they stand and fight, but they can essentially strike anywhere they please.

And being nigh-impossible to permanantly put down so long as they have their bases of operation. Your average Necron is close to (but not quite equal, IMHO) to a Space Marine in most respectS (though Gauss weapons are nastier than a bolter.) but they ara considerably more numerous, more easily produced, and easier to repair/put back into play.

Given that they don't really need (or seem to have an interest) in taking or holding territory either, they don't really need a massive force (at least not yet.) so yeah, they could be a threat even in lower numbers.

This of course, means that quantifying what precisely they've got in space assets is difficult; there could be as few as a score of necron ships buzzing around the galaxy like caffinated hummingbirds.

Well again, they aren't soley dependent upon space assets to transport their trroops (at least once they've established a base or beachhead someplace.) and they don't really seem to take/hold territory in the sense that the Guard does during invasions (they just steal people and or exterminate the organics.) They probably don't need huge fleets yet (somethign that would be hard to hide.) All they'd need them for is to distract/delay or destroy the enemy's own space-based assets (which they can do with fewer numbers given their superior technology and the right tactics.) and perhaps for occasionally exterminating a planet from orbit (which does not, for them, require very many ships either.)

If they are building ships, the appaent emphasis on smaller craft (cruisers and escrots) would make sense, since they are better long range striking and skirmishing vesses - ideal for the sorts of tactics they seem to be currently employing (and probably alot cheaper/easier to build.)

The scope of their empire; Nightbringer suggests quite strongly that they were multi-galactic, but that could be hyperbole - (there's a bit in a pair of books by the same author where one character goes off through a warp tear, and supposedly brings ruin to entire galaxies and/or universes in Khorne's name, which seems grossly inconsistant with the rest of the setting) - after all. I'll post the quote tomorrow.

You mean that Avatar of Khorne in Storm of Iron? I'm guessing this is in "Dead Sky, Black Sun", isn't it?