Tau: "Good" Guys? (WH40K)

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Post by white_rabbit »

I have acknowledged that Xenology is a credible source but what you don't seem to get through your fucking skull is that Black Library products are lower on the canon food chain. So when a GW in house product contradicts a BL one, the BL loses. Period.
This is nonsense, the only official canon rule that you can lever out of Games Workshop is that EVERYTHING is canon.
Ralei couldn't exactly have Darvus maintain his little xeno-zoo, but then say "oh, don't worry about the Tau, I already know all about them." without Darvus getting curious. If Darvus was to start poking around, at the very least Ralei's going to need a new Magos Biologos, and at worst he's going to have to start all over again now that his identity as "Inquisitor Ralei" has been compromised.
The dude organises his guys to go and abduct a Tau Ethereal, specifically.

Its not like he just said " get me some non-humans for my Coggie to carve up"

Plus the Necron/sword connection can equally be applied to the eldar.

Dead world, pre-human civilisation, funny curved magic sword with strange symbols on it.

As likely to be eldar as it is Tau.
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Post by Lancer »

If the Dawn Blade was an Eldar sword of any significance, it would have either a spirit-stone or a power cell. The lack of either means that, were it an actual Eldar sword, it's just a plain sword and not actually anything important, which is somewhat contradicted by it granting Farsight the ability to strike as a monstrous creature.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Matt Huang wrote:If the Dawn Blade was an Eldar sword of any significance, it would have either a spirit-stone or a power cell. The lack of either means that, were it an actual Eldar sword, it's just a plain sword and not actually anything important, which is somewhat contradicted by it granting Farsight the ability to strike as a monstrous creature.
What exactly makes you say that ?

The "dawnblade" link to an Eldar sword as far as I'm aware has always been considered to be the link to the flawed blade forged for Khaines warriors by Vaul, the one that didn't last as long as all the others, and allowed its user to tire when they fought the c'tans armies.

The chaps name escapes me, but has some "dawn" thingy thats supposed to be the link the Eldar pushers have.

Myself, I think its an open ended plot hook, that they threw in as they tend to do.

The presence of a spirit stone or power cell are by no means disqualifiers of eldar technology either. Eldar force weapons are formidable indeed without being wielded by an eldar psyker, and they've produced at least one artifact that has neither power source or spirit stone (the Deathsword) .

Bear in mind that their psycho-plastic technology can draw a certain amount of energy from the warp as well.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Slightly off topic, in the newest of Gotos horrible DOW novels (such a shame that a Chapter that has such great story potential ended up in his hands) didn't Gabrial along with an Eldar Farseer find one of the ORIGINAL swords of Vaul and use it for a time, before giving it back to the Eldar?
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Post by SylasGaunt »

GeneralTacticus wrote:A quick note for SylasGaunt - the Angelus subsector worlds to which Stormbringer refers were seen (briefly) in the Ravenor books, and they are, indeed, completely dead. A warp storm went through them some decades before the time period of the books and killed everything on the surface, leaving behind basically lifeless, warp-tainted rocks. The important bit is that the warp taint did not take the form of gribbly daemons trying to eat everyone who approached, but it was severe enough that fragments of glass taken from those worlds could give even total psychic blunts a look into the Warp, and in at least one case, appear to have allowed a daemon to slip through and possess a host without anybody, including the host himself, realising until much later.

Not having read most of the sources being referenced, I'm not going to comment on the rest of the discussion, but I thought I'd point that out.
That you for the reference, I haven't gone through the Ravenor books yet.
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Post by NecronLord »

Matt Huang wrote:Ralei couldn't exactly have Darvus maintain his little xeno-zoo, but then say "oh, don't worry about the Tau, I already know all about them." without Darvus getting curious. If Darvus was to start poking around, at the very least Ralei's going to need a new Magos Biologos, and at worst he's going to have to start all over again now that his identity as "Inquisitor Ralei" has been compromised.
He could however, just leave them odd the list, like he left the Lacrymole and the Psy-Gore of Perseus off the list. It's not as if the Tau are that significant that their omission would be a glaring error.
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Post by NecronLord »

white_rabbit wrote:and they've produced at least one artifact that has neither power source or spirit stone (the Deathsword) .
The Deathsword had a rather obvious power source *points at the planet* :P

But more seriously, it did have their trademark gems on it, as I recall.


Of couse, it would be entirely within their means to see that whazzisface will one day save an eldar life if he's turned, and arrange the entire world thousands of years in advance.
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Post by Big Orange »

NecronLord wrote:
Big Orange wrote:Well Adolf Hitler, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich were evil because of so-called "enviromental factors".
Yes, dumbshit, they were. They were not 'intrinsically evil' you think they were 'born evil?' What is this, the Omen?
Well WH40K seems to be written as a sci-fi version of The Omen... :wink:

I mean how is Chaos have good elements when you seem to either end up a mutated sociopath or dead? And the "benefits" of Chaos sound like typically hollow promises to woo suckers like Horus.

And I know for sure that Tyranid invasion would curtail certain death (even though they act out of amoral instinct and not immoral malice). Maybe the C'Tan do not desire to exterminate all life (they want to harvest it) but that would mean humanity and other sentient races would most likely end up in gigantic battery farms. Forever.

I can understand that Eldar society is internally very egalitarian, but that's internal; how are they like externally to non-Eldar? And I guess individual Imperium worlds where they have Trade Unions and even allowed to protest is possibly the direct result of the Imperium of Man being very hard to police with the Inquisitor agents unable to be everywhere at once (and aren't they very rare anyway with only a few dozen Inquisitor operatives out of trillions or more citizens?).

No, whatever bad things the Tau do are often greatly, greatly dwarfed in scale and intent by most of the other WH40K powers who are unapologetic in their immoral excesses (like the C'Tan, Imperium humans and Dark Eldar).
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Big Orange wrote:And I guess individual Imperium worlds where they have Trade Unions and even allowed to protest is possibly the direct result of the Imperium of Man being very hard to police with the Inquisitor agents unable to be everywhere at once (and aren't they very rare anyway with only a few dozen Inquisitor operatives out of trillions or more citizens?).
First off, it is not the Inquisition's concern whether a planet has free speech or slaves, nobles or voters, oppressed peasants or liberated middle class. Their only concern is dealing with internal threats to the Imperium, things like heretical cults, daemons, xenos, proscribed text or technology, etc. Second, no there are not a few dozen Inquisitor operatives, there are easily thousands of them. Yes, thousands out of trillions, but it's not like they're as rare as High Lords of Terra. Also, the Inquisition has millions of people working for it, only a small fraction are actual Inquisitors, but it's still a large organization.
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Post by Big Orange »

Adrian Laguna wrote: First off, it is not the Inquisition's concern whether a planet has free speech or slaves, nobles or voters, oppressed peasants or liberated middle class. Their only concern is dealing with internal threats to the Imperium, things like heretical cults, daemons, xenos, proscribed text or technology, etc. Second, no there are not a few dozen Inquisitor operatives, there are easily thousands of them. Yes, thousands out of trillions, but it's not like they're as rare as High Lords of Terra. Also, the Inquisition has millions of people working for it, only a small fraction are actual Inquisitors, but it's still a large organization.
I know the Inquisitors are a very specialised agency, but any "liberal" world would probably have a higher chance of falling to Chaos or conventional rebellion than a world run by a more puritanical regime. And the actual Inquisitor operatives must be very rare if they are vastly outnumbered by support staff like guards, ship crew, civilian informers and bureaucrats (besides there must be other more conventional law enforcement units like the Arbites).
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Post by NecronLord »

Big Orange wrote:Well WH40K seems to be written as a sci-fi version of The Omen... :wink:

I mean how is Chaos have good elements when you seem to either end up a mutated sociopath or dead? And the "benefits" of Chaos sound like typically hollow promises to woo suckers like Horus.
The existing gods are evil. They are not inherently evil. Creoragh, The Numen... And various dead gods were not evil. Slaanessh is evil because there's more lust and perversity than affection and tenderness. Khorne is evil because he is a reflection of the nature of war in the universe... There's nothing inherently evil about the warp itself, only the current crop of deities.

And of course, this doesn't apply to the C'tan as they are sapient beings, not formed by the emotions of others. There's no reason they should be born evil - and indeed, aside from the Nightbringer's insitnctive reaction of 'eeeeaaat' there's no evidence that they actually started out evil. For all 'we' know, without the Nightbringer and its genius idea of 'let's start consuming brains', the C'tan might have ended up benevolent, banished the Old Ones (who I seriously doubt would qualify as 'good' by any standard, indeed, I suspect a more complex analysis {IE one not a five thousandth hand mythic account handed down through the hyper-emotional Eldar} of the Necrontyr's motives for attacking would reveal theirs to be a just war. It takes guts to stand up to a race that's gallavanting around the galaxy enslaving every race they come across, knowing you can't win).
And I know for sure that Tyranid invasion would curtail certain death (even though they act out of amoral instinct and not immoral malice). Maybe the C'Tan do not desire to exterminate all life (they want to harvest it) but that would mean humanity and other sentient races would most likely end up in gigantic battery farms. Forever.
This is somewhat correct, though battery farming is a bit of an exxaggeration in some cases. What we've seen of races ruled by the C'tan (Forever Loyal, Codex Necrons) is pretty positive. Mostly being allowed to worship the C'tan as they please, and in one case, provided - apparently from nothing - with a trans-Imperium level of technology for their trouble (this was all a cynical prank, but at the point when the prank is revealed, the civilisation would already be on its last legs anyway). This is however, only Mephet'ran. The others are much more likely to just torture and maim. I'd sure rather be one of the Deceiver's cattle than be one of the half of humanity estimated by the Imperium to live as chattel of the demons in the Eye of Terror.
I can understand that Eldar society is internally very egalitarian, but that's internal; how are they like externally to non-Eldar?
As a rule, they don't want you near them, and tell you to piss off.
And I guess individual Imperium worlds where they have Trade Unions and even allowed to protest is possibly the direct result of the Imperium of Man being very hard to police with the Inquisitor agents unable to be everywhere at once (and aren't they very rare anyway with only a few dozen Inquisitor operatives out of trillions or more citizens?).
There are thousands of inquisitors, millions of operatives. Thorian Sourcebook.
No, whatever bad things the Tau do are often greatly, greatly dwarfed in scale and intent by most of the other WH40K powers who are unapologetic in their immoral excesses (like the C'Tan, Imperium humans and Dark Eldar).
No, that's the thing. The Tau don't have any real excuse for being fucked in the head. They seem to have created the perfect despotism themselves. On the other hand, the Old Ones dicked with the DE's heads to make them like that. The C'tan are about as good as you could expect, given their history, and the Imperium is beset by perils and logistical nightmares that force it to be that way.
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Post by Morilore »

Big Orange wrote:Well WH40K seems to be written as a sci-fi version of The Omen... :wink:
No it's not. The whole point of 40k is to explore different types of evil in ways that beat you over the head with shades of grey. Chaos is psychotic evil, the Imperium (including the Emperor himself) is end-justifies-the-means totalitarian evil, Eldar are racist and arrogant evil, Dark Eldar are sadistic-torturer-evil, Tau are messianic-utopian evil, Orkz are mindless-violence evil, Tyranids are soulless-force-of-nature evil, and C'Tan are intelligent-but-uncaring evil. If you want to try to figure out whether it's best to be eaten, slaughtered, tortured for aeons, turned insane, enslaved, or domesticated go ahead, but stop looking for a "good guy." You won't find one on the galactic scale.
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Post by Setzer »

NecronLord wrote:
Matt Huang wrote:Ralei couldn't exactly have Darvus maintain his little xeno-zoo, but then say "oh, don't worry about the Tau, I already know all about them." without Darvus getting curious. If Darvus was to start poking around, at the very least Ralei's going to need a new Magos Biologos, and at worst he's going to have to start all over again now that his identity as "Inquisitor Ralei" has been compromised.
He could however, just leave them odd the list, like he left the Lacrymole and the Psy-Gore of Perseus off the list. It's not as if the Tau are that significant that their omission would be a glaring error.
I have Xenology open in front of me right now. Ralei's bounty hunters state they captured one Kroot and One Tau. They made an additional note stating the difficulty in capturing the Tau, since it was an Ethereal. They were using it as an excuse to demand more money. Ralei had a handwritten memo both complaining about the bounty hunter's excuse for getting more money, and expressing surprise at getting an ethereal in custody. To me it seems he was considering granting them their requested bonus, which he would probably not do if he had hire them to capture an Ethereal specifically.
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Post by NecronLord »

Fair point. A good dissection of a kroot would be interesting enough for the Necrons.
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Post by NecronLord »

Big Orange wrote:I know the Inquisitors are a very specialised agency, but any "liberal" world would probably have a higher chance of falling to Chaos or conventional rebellion than a world run by a more puritanical regime.
Not necesserily true. A gross oversimplification. The only social factors that need to be constant are that mutants are kept down and the faith is kept. Both can be done by lesser organisations, unless it really gets out of hand. And then - Hereticus.
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Post by Lonestar »

NecronLord wrote: This is somewhat correct, though battery farming is a bit of an exxaggeration in some cases. What we've seen of races ruled by the C'tan (Forever Loyal, Codex Necrons) is pretty positive. Mostly being allowed to worship the C'tan as they please, and in one case, provided - apparently from nothing - with a trans-Imperium level of technology for their trouble (this was all a cynical prank, but at the point when the prank is revealed, the civilisation would already be on its last legs anyway). This is however, only Mephet'ran. The others are much more likely to just torture and maim. I'd sure rather be one of the Deceiver's cattle than be one of the half of humanity estimated by the Imperium to live as chattel of the demons in the Eye of Terror.
How did so many Humans get trapped there?
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Post by Lonestar »

arrgh...can someone fic my tags?
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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Post by white_rabbit »

Chris OFarrell wrote:Slightly off topic, in the newest of Gotos horrible DOW novels (such a shame that a Chapter that has such great story potential ended up in his hands) didn't Gabrial along with an Eldar Farseer find one of the ORIGINAL swords of Vaul and use it for a time, before giving it back to the Eldar?
To cut a long story short, and totally Spoilerise Dow:Tempest.


The Blood Ravens have a pact with the eldar to maintain a big ass psychic beacon on board one or more of their capital ships, which "tastes" like eldar mind juice.

This eldar mind juice flavour is designed to keep C'tan/Necron facilities and the dudes themselves locked in stasis, simulating a well established and powerful Eldar empire, and therefore a serious threat to the C'tan if they decide to wake up and take over, the Eldar possessing both technological and Godly means to combat them.

This flavour is established with eldar force weapons, some of which are used in combat by the Blood Ravens.

one of them is a fragment of the flawed and broken sword of Vaul which was given to Khaines warriors.

the necron fleet from the last book is repairing in close orbit of another sun.

Eldar farseer Kamehamehas the Necron fleet using two combined chunks of the nice cool sword, one from eldar, one from Librarian Rhamahs sword(dude who got sucked into the warp)


The Deathsword had a rather obvious power source *points at the planet* Razz

But more seriously, it did have their trademark gems on it, as I recall.
To more correctly iterate what I meant, the Deathsword was still a potent weapon, despite not being at full power, and the entire planets witch engine complement not being activated, only some local ones. And while the eldar stick gems on things, they aren't all spirit stones, I find it highly unlikely the deathsword of khaine had some poor sods soul stuck in it. "gems" are just a feature of eldar tech, but not a prerequisite.

Farsight could have picked up some pimp sword from almost any race to be honest, its not like there aren't other advanced races millions of years old.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Lonestar wrote:
NecronLord wrote: This is somewhat correct, though battery farming is a bit of an exxaggeration in some cases. What we've seen of races ruled by the C'tan (Forever Loyal, Codex Necrons) is pretty positive. Mostly being allowed to worship the C'tan as they please, and in one case, provided - apparently from nothing - with a trans-Imperium level of technology for their trouble (this was all a cynical prank, but at the point when the prank is revealed, the civilisation would already be on its last legs anyway). This is however, only Mephet'ran. The others are much more likely to just torture and maim. I'd sure rather be one of the Deceiver's cattle than be one of the half of humanity estimated by the Imperium to live as chattel of the demons in the Eye of Terror.
How did so many Humans get trapped there?
The majority were probably born there, with a constant influx of captured stock from raided worlds being brought in.

Being able to distort reality probably helps with dealing with any resource problems.
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Post by Big Orange »

NecronLord wrote: And of course, this doesn't apply to the C'tan as they are sapient beings, not formed by the emotions of others. There's no reason they should be born evil - and indeed, aside from the Nightbringer's insitnctive reaction of 'eeeeaaat' there's no evidence that they actually started out evil. For all 'we' know, without the Nightbringer and its genius idea of 'let's start consuming brains', the C'tan might have ended up benevolent, banished the Old Ones (who I seriously doubt would qualify as 'good' by any standard, indeed, I suspect a more complex analysis {IE one not a five thousandth hand mythic account handed down through the hyper-emotional Eldar} of the Necrontyr's motives for attacking would reveal theirs to be a just war. It takes guts to stand up to a race that's gallavanting around the galaxy enslaving every race they come across, knowing you can't win).
What solid evidence do you have of the Old Ones being "evil"? The Old Ones nurtured sentient life throughout the universe and the Necrontyr were simply jealous. And the C'Tan always sound like they were evil since they are essentially parasitic creatures and anathema to life.
Morilore wrote:Tau are messianic-utopian evil,
I'd much rather have the messianic-utopian "evil" thank you; it's certainly a better prospect than either getting eaten alive, having my lifeforce drained, executed by space Nazis, tortured by space Elves, mutated by cosmic forces of pure evil or slaughtered by fungi humanoids.
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Post by white_rabbit »

I'd much rather have the messianic-utopian "evil" thank you; it's certainly a better prospect than either getting eaten alive, having my lifeforce drained, executed by space Nazis, tortured by space Elves, mutated by cosmic forces of pure evil or slaughtered by fungi humanoids.
its not like being a Tau peon reduces the likelyhood of any of this happening particularly you know.

All it does is make it so the Space Nazi's have even more reason to execute you, and you get forced into the expendable militia of the small kid on the block.

Lucky you eh ?
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Post by NecronLord »

Big Orange wrote:What solid evidence do you have of the Old Ones being "evil"? The Old Ones nurtured sentient life throughout the universe
Yes, to serve them - life was getting on perfectly well without their interference, after all. What they created (presumably often from sapient or quasi-sapient species) were slaves. Slaves that can never be more than slaves. See Skinks, in WFB? Must really suck to be one of them. Genetically modified by aliens to be a slave race forever. Would you like it if they showed up over Earth and turned us into some narrowly defined species that exists now and forever purely as laborers for another species?

If there's one line in the necron codex that reeks most heavily of propaganda it's 'The Necrontyr made a largely futile war on us because they were jealous of our living longer than them.' - Seriously now, that's completely irrational hardly the kind of action a race of scientists is likely to undertake. You can be sure that even in the sometimes cartoon-evil universe of 40K, there were more complex motivations.

Who're you going to trust to be 'good' or at least Neutral? Scientists or worship-obsessed-pretender-deity-wizards?
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Post by Inquisitor Ryan »

Actually in my honest opinion the reason for the Necrontyr hatred of the old ones was well reasoned.

Picture this, you live on a planet where the sun is so bad that everyone one the planet has cancer, garaunteed. No memeber of your species has ever reached 100 years of age. Then you find out that a bunch of snobs calling themselves whatever are traipsing around the universe creating/helping/enslaving other beings that are perfectly ok within their own enviroment and need no help. Then you discover that they essentially knew you were there all along and did nothing to help your race.
Then using your superior technology you summong the equivalent of a god from your sun that tells you all sorts of things, including that they can make you immortal to finish and defeat a race that tried to condemn you to death.

In their position i'd take it, the old ones = evil.
They created the Eldar, which in turn created Slaanesh through their decadence.
They created orks, which are a menace to the universe since they like fighting so much.
I suspect that they had a hand in the Tyranids. (But there is no proof there.)


As to the topic, the Tau are just as evil as the rest as someone stated elsewhere, the Greater Good= whats good for Tau.
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Post by Rawtooth »

Necronlord wrote:Yes, to serve them - life was getting on perfectly well without their interference, after all. What they created (presumably often from sapient or quasi-sapient species) were slaves. Slaves that can never be more than slaves. See Skinks, in WFB? Must really suck to be one of them. Genetically modified by aliens to be a slave race forever. Would you like it if they showed up over Earth and turned us into some narrowly defined species that exists now and forever purely as laborers for another species?
The inital phase for the Old Ones is "The Old Ones understood that all life is useful, and where they passed they kindled new species and impregnated thousands upon thousands of worlds to make them their own." No hint what so ever of modified lifeforms. Those show up after the C'Tan and the Necrontyr strike back.
Necronlord wrote: If there's one line in the necron codex that reeks most heavily of propaganda it's 'The Necrontyr made a largely futile war on us because they were jealous of our living longer than them.' - Seriously now, that's completely irrational hardly the kind of action a race of scientists is likely to undertake. You can be sure that even in the sometimes cartoon-evil universe of 40K, there were more complex motivations.

Who're you going to trust to be 'good' or at least Neutral? Scientists or worship-obsessed-pretender-deity-wizards?
Who to trust; the people who helped spread life across a galaxy or the people who worshipped their sun as a death-god, created vast cities more to house the dead than the living, and ended up worshipping and serving a slaughterer they helped bring, or draw it's attention, to the material universe.

There is also the fact that the Codex appears to be written in a neutral 3rd person perspective from the outside, as it contains information no one faction would have access to.
Inquisitor Ryan wrote:Then you discover that they essentially knew you were there all along and did nothing to help your race.
What proof do you have that the Old Ones knew of the Necrontyr's plight?
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Post by NecronLord »

Rawtooth wrote:The inital phase for the Old Ones is "The Old Ones understood that all life is useful, and where they passed they kindled new species and impregnated thousands upon thousands of worlds to make them their own." No hint what so ever of modified lifeforms.
And you presume that their practices were different during during peace than during wartime without a jot of evidence... why? Given what we know of them, and descriptions of the Slaan as their 'first' creations, and those closest to them, I doubt they suddenly changed their MO utterly when the C'tan showed up.
Who to trust; the people who helped spread life across a galaxy
Their life. With the obvious intention of making it serve them.
or the people who worshipped their sun as a death-god,
'and life giver combined' what's more, I rather doubt they maintained such a tradition into spacefaring days, indeed, I seem to recall suggestion quite to the contrary. Given that the necrontyr species is apparently billions of years old, I hardly think one strange religion (which, mind you, may be infinitely more beneficient than Christianity or Islam and all the rest) that may not even have survived that long is worth writing off the entire species.
created vast cities more to house the dead than the living,
And? This is evil, is it?
and ended up worshipping and serving a slaughterer they helped bring, or draw it's attention, to the material universe.
Errr. If you actually read it, you'll note that the not only was the Nightbringer never particularly popular, but they most certainly didn't know it was going to be a super-monster until it started killing them. By that standard, the Old Ones are directly responsible for the entire galaxy/universe going tits up when the warp decided it'd had enough of them, and wiping out the vast majority of the galactic/universal population.
There is also the fact that the Codex appears to be written in a neutral 3rd person perspective from the outside, as it contains information no one faction would have access to.
This is incorrect. The codex is written in a third person synopsis style, this is true, however, it at no point contains no information that the Eldar, Hrud, and other extant races could not have access to what's more, it later proceeds on to "seperating fact from myth about the C'tan is impossible, and given their nature, it may be a mistake to even try" while maintaining the same person and tone. If a source outright says it is based on myth and makes no effort to determine truth, it is most certainly highly unreliable.

The closest it comes to any kind of external 'omniscient' perspective is in its description of the Nightbringer's first appearance, and even that may either be completely ficticious (after a few thousand we've got bullshit about Buddah popping spontaneously out of his mother's side with no harm done, and the entire world ringing with bells, I don't want to think what kind of elaborations the Eldar and Hrud {the two races with substantial knowledge of those times still widely active} both of whom preserve their history by oral tradition could come up with) or mythologised.
Last edited by NecronLord on 2006-11-08 03:58am, edited 1 time in total.
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