StarGate Universe premiere 2 Oct (spoilers)

[NecronLord]

On an unrelated note, I was discussing the power core here with a friend, we've been speculating how ZPMs might be made for quite some time. Given that Asuras had an oodle of them, but as there were apparently no offworld Asuran facilities, it appears to be something that must be based on the planet.

This power core obviously has greater peak output than a ZPM (or they'd be able to just use Atlantis for this project) or even a trio of them: given how volitile it is, perhaps this technology is used to create ZPMs? It would certainly link in with the blob making Asuras explode, even though of course, it wasn't the explanation given in the episode.

Comments?

[JME2]

That or it could be an early version of Project Arcturus. I expect ZPM manufacturing equipment is on the ship that preceded the Desinty; if the team can access them and find a way to bring them back to Earth, it may allow the Tau'ri to finally manufacture ZPM's en masse.

[NecronLord]

The planet core probably isn't a similar technology to Arcturus, simply because evidence suggests the Lanteans never solved how to keep it running over time without producing dangerous radiations that breached containment.

[JME2]

With Arcturus, I was speculating the nature of Destiny's power generation. But yeah, a planetary facility would add to Replicator Godzilla going boom.

[Bilbo]

You know, at first I thought I'd really hate the whole "crappy, primitive looking" Ancient ship thing, but the way they've handled it, I think it works superbly. Atlantis is at least 10,000 years old. How much older, I don't know if we know, but it's almost certainly younger than this 100,000+ year old ship, if Rush is to be believed.

Actually, Atlantis left Earth several million years ago according to the Rising prologue. Perhaps that'll be retconned at some point. However, this ship may still be older, but more importantly, it's been un-maintained for much longer than Atlantis has; Ancients were on Atlantis ten thousand years ago, and even took the time to pack stuff up in dust covers before they left. This ship has been long past its intended billion light year service.

That was retconned. The Ancients just walked out. It was Dr. Weir who put the dustcovers on all of the equipment.

Your main point though is spot on. Atlantis may be far older but it was continually occupied for all but the last 10,000 years and thus being maintained. Further even when empty it was safely under an ocean protected by its shield. The Destiny on the other hand has been travelling and obviously encountering trouble over its lifespan.

I think the Wash is going to be proven wrong about no one ever being on Destiny. The damage specifically to one of the shuttle crafts suggest that someone (maybe not Ancients) have been on the ship and used some of the equipment.

[Bilbo]

You know Stargate's back when Necron and I do this almost every week...

Given that we've seen them penetrate Ori

Only with a ZPM

That we know of. Honestly, the constant moving of the goalposts on this one gets old. First, the weapons were supposedly only effective against the Ori, because that was what they were being designed for. Now that we know they can hurt more than just the Ori they were suddenly just better weapons, but not, alone, able to take on the Ori. It just happened that Earth had a ZPM equipped ship that worked, and the Asgard happened to develop weapons that could hurt Ori ships but only with a ZPM, which they themselves don't have. Yeah.

Has it ever been stated that a ZPM is a superior powersource to those available to the Asgard? I know Earth likes them since they plug right into Ancient technology, and because they are very portable. I do not remember ever hearing that ZPMs put out more power and are better than anything the Asagard have. Thor's ship travelling to Earth from other galaxies, often in minutes, is far superior to anything else we have seen on the show other than the one time we see Rodney's wormhole drive in action. Thi suggests that the Asgard are plenty able to generate as much if not more power than a ZPM.

[Bilbo]

Ships with shields up also seem to do pretty well against the beam weapons in Atlantis.

Example?

Not sure what he is talking about either.

Only one ship ever has demonstrated resistance to Asgard beam technology. That would be the super Wraith Hive Ship.

We have seen Ori ships blow to bits in less than 4 shots, Hive ships toasted in as many or fewer, Wraith Cruisers in even less shots, and Ancient cruisers over the Asuran homeworld go down pretty well. The strange alien ship form the Daedalus Variations had its main armaments cripped with shots from a barely functioning Daedalus beam weapon which shows that the weapon is not an Ori specific weapon, unless you think a ship from a never before seen alien in an alternate reality just happens to use the same technology as the Ori.

Its funny but as someone else pointed out we have never seen a Goa'uld mothership actually destroyed by Earth weapons. The Prometheus always shot railguns and missiles then fled before dying. Most Motherships die to each other, non-weapon events like stars going nova, or Ancient weapons like Antarctic station or Oneil in the super Jumper.

[NecronLord]

Regarding Destiny's situation, I'd be unsurprised if it had been recently attacked. Obviously some of its problems are simple age, but some of the holes, I'm thinking might be from an attack. I seem to recall that being mentioned, and while there's apparently going to be no over-arching bad guy, I'd be surprised if there's not someone that wants to put holes in it at some point soon.

[NecronLord]

Has it ever been stated that a ZPM is a superior powersource to those available to the Asgard?

Not explicitly; indeed there's a very powerful unit in the asgard core, as I recall. However, that doesn't honestly matter.

A ZPM is an extra power source. It doesn't replace what a 304 normally has, it supplements it. We've seen it used to increase their shield power several times, and it increases their drive speed considerably as well.

The rest of what you're saying is basically irrelevant - a ZPM is very powerful - a hive ship can burn rubber across the intergalactic void in hours using one, for example, when normally they're positively glacial: an upper limit to their normal speed is 78 kilolights (taking two weeks to reach Atlantis; if they crossed the Pegasus Galaxy's 3000 Ly diameter in that time, which they probably didn't, not even a third of that). The fact that they may not be as powerful in reactor terms as other ships doesn't really matter. They're a big bonus to any ship carrying them.

[JME2]

Regarding Destiny's situation, I'd be unsurprised if it had been recently attacked. Obviously some of its problems are simple age, but some of the holes, I'm thinking might be from an attack. I seem to recall that being mentioned, and while there's apparently going to be no over-arching bad guy, I'd be surprised if there's not someone that wants to put holes in it at some point soon.

Hmm. I wonder if the attacker will have any links to the Ha'taks that attacked Icarus base -- that would be a hell of a cross-galactic conspiracy.

[NecronLord]

I wouldn't think so. Personally I'm thinking Rush is in league with the Lucian guys somehow. Not sure why, but they'll possibly try and rescue his character if that's the case - perhaps the woman he was crying over is in some way being used against him? I didn't quite work out who she was.

Heh heh heh. I've just had a hilarious thought about the attackers and their motives. The Free Jaffa nation, not wanting to get the crap kicked out of them by another Tau'ri brought invasion due to the Tau'ri endlessly faffing about with dangerous things. Wouldn't that be a headfuck?

[CaptJodan]

Huh. I don't remember any such quote. Just that they were the most advanced weapons, recently developed for the war.

Apologies, that was various fan excuses for why beam weapons wouldn't be effective against other ships, until it was proven they were.

Umm. Odyessy was ZPM equipped in order to fight the Ori. The others were not. I don't see why the idea that it could have markedly higher firepower and resilience (in that the Ori don't two-shot it...) is particularly odd, given that we've had explicit statements that a ZPM boosts shields and engines greatly.

In the means that I'm remaining consistent in the claims I make with the evidence presented. There's no mention of or evidence of these weapons being less powerful on a 304 without a ZPM. You'd think it would have been mentioned at some point if it was.

They had two-to-one when they were ambushing the lone Auroas. I even edited that bit so it wouldn't be ambiguous.

Thought you were talking about the battle of Asuras fleet. Even so, they split up after that engagement to 1 vs. 1 (we assume there were no more than 1 warship per 304 at a time).

I count three or four, as I remember it. An explosion isn't enough to say it's dead - we also see Auroras with big explosions on them that clear and they're (to our eyes) intact. As far as I know, we see three or four broken apart, one by beams, one in background, and the one that got droned.

1. In the background when the fleet first jumps in, near the end of that scene. Ship's back is broken and it explodes.
2. After the 304/Dart attack when it switches to Hive vs Aurora, in the background a ship is snapped in two.
3. 304 2 shot kill.
4. The beginning of the scene where the Traveler ship is destroyed, one blows up.
5. Drone attack by Shepherd.
But whose counting?

There's no explicit mention of upgraded shields on the standard ships since Camelot. There is no evidence for improved ship durability. Razor - the shields and hull are not upgraded.

I could use the same logic against the beams being less powerful without ZPM. Regardless, my only point there was that the 304s aren't using Beliskner style shields, but likely Danial Jackson or O'Neill style shields. Comparing the shield resiliency of a 304 to a beaten Beliskner is what I'm refuting. They're not easily comparable.

Err, I'm suggesting that the ha'taks could have done enough damage to make her back off; for all we know they caught her with the shields down and shot the beam weapons off it,

I thought of that too, but the entire bridge seemed very calm, and there was no damage reported. She seemed willing to give her status that their shields were holding, why not include "but we can't do much damage to them because our beam weapons are out"? Besides, there was a lack of steam and sparks that is oh so characteristic of 304 damage.

Upgraded Ha'taks were presented as pretty powerful, able to mix it with actual Asgard ships,

If they're Beliskner's, yeah. But then, Beliskner style shields collapse where the improved shields hold (see Promie). Now, if the Lucian Alliance got their hands on Anubis Hataks that had been replicator modified (not a hard sell, given all the ships they had until Dakara took them out), as we've seen have been a scary sight for a Daniel Jackson, then the battle we saw would make a lot of sense.

The shield is. Without a ZPM beam weapons don't matter, by the time you've done the five to seven shots necessary to kill an Ori toilet, it'll have you sucking vacuum, because it also has a badass beam weapon.

Not disputed. The difference here is that we're talking about the old style Anubis Hatak. Even if we assume they have super duper wacky awesome Ancient shields that don't seem to hold too damn well in Atlantis (unless it's the City's itself), the fact is their weapons weren't modified, as far as we know. They may last longer in a fight, but their weapons haven't improved. Meanwhile, the beam weapons the Asgard have are superior to what they used to have, and those Asgard weapons were enough for a standard Hatak, and depending on the model of Asgard ship, probably good enough 1v1 on an Anubis one.

The Hatak may have more staying power, but the disparity between Asgard and Ancient shields doesn't seem to be that wide. But the beam weapons do seem considerably more powerful than the Hatak's weapons.

(As a slight tangent, if what you're proposing is true, then it means you believe that not a single Hatak shown in Camelot or Flesh and Blood was upgraded to Anubis standards, OR, if they were, then their shields were less effective than 304s)

We've no reason to conclude that an upgraded ha'tak is grossly inferior to anything of equivalent mass, either.

Well, we know Hataks shown in the two episodes I mentioned above were inferior. But we can't prove if they were upgraded or not.

Incidentally, I don't hate the beam weapons at all, I rather like the concept and effect used. I dislike the recent tendancy of stargate fans to talk down all aliens to the point that it seems like the likes of the wraith live only at the sufference of the Tau'ri. It's poor drama.

Well yes, but it's what we were given by the writers. I'm looking forward to this show actually doing away with that and making the Tau'ri fight for their lives again.

[JME2]

Heh heh heh. I've just had a hilarious thought about the attackers and their motives. The Free Jaffa nation, not wanting to get the crap kicked out of them by another Tau'ri brought invasion due to the Tau'ri endlessly faffing about with dangerous things. Wouldn't that be a headfuck?

Heh; I'd go for that.

[NecronLord]

Anyway, I'm content to wait and see for a while if more is given on this battle and how it happened. It does seem like there's more to come on it in the Earthside story segments (assuming they do one with the stones; no spoilers please).

[JME2]

Well yes, but it's what we were given by the writers. I'm looking forward to this show actually doing away with that and making the Tau'ri fight for their lives again.

Yeah, as I said before, the overabundance of Ancient Device Ex Machina really hurt both SG-1 and SGA. Same with the ascension/ascended beings angle; I really hope Rush's explanation is all we'll get on that corner of Stargate for the show because I'm personally sick of it.

[NecronLord]

Heh heh heh. I've just had a hilarious thought about the attackers and their motives. The Free Jaffa nation, not wanting to get the crap kicked out of them by another Tau'ri brought invasion due to the Tau'ri endlessly faffing about with dangerous things. Wouldn't that be a headfuck?

Heh; I'd go for that.

It'd also explain who told them...

<Carter> So yeah, we're working on opening up this ninth chevron, which even the Ancients never seem to have used. Did I mention the entire planet might explode if someone so much as lights a match?
<Teal'c> ...
<Teal'c> Do you know how many jaffa that Ori invasion killed? Do you? And guess whose planets don't have convinient defences to stop the Wraith getting us when they eventually get here? Fuck this. Should have stayed with Apophis.

[JME2]

Heh heh heh. I've just had a hilarious thought about the attackers and their motives. The Free Jaffa nation, not wanting to get the crap kicked out of them by another Tau'ri brought invasion due to the Tau'ri endlessly faffing about with dangerous things. Wouldn't that be a headfuck?

Heh; I'd go for that.

It'd also explain who told them...

<Carter> So yeah, we're working on opening up this ninth chevron, which even the Ancients never seem to have used. Did I mention the entire planet might explode if someone so much as lights a match?
<Teal'c> ...
<Teal'c> Do you know how many jaffa that Ori invasion killed? Do you? And guess whose planets don't have convinient defences to stop the Wraith getting us when they eventually get here? Fuck this. Should have stayed with Apophis.

I expect the Jaffa Nation will get name dropped at some point; if not, then Continuum's the last word on their post-Ori status.

[Bilbo]

Heh heh heh. I've just had a hilarious thought about the attackers and their motives. The Free Jaffa nation, not wanting to get the crap kicked out of them by another Tau'ri brought invasion due to the Tau'ri endlessly faffing about with dangerous things. Wouldn't that be a headfuck?

Heh; I'd go for that.

Wouldnt be too far of a stretch for them to think it was a Dakara style super weapon.

[AMT]

I wouldn't think so. Personally I'm thinking Rush is in league with the Lucian guys somehow. Not sure why, but they'll possibly try and rescue his character if that's the case - perhaps the woman he was crying over is in some way being used against him? I didn't quite work out who she was.

I'm assuming wife. He had a wedding band on and the picture was the only thing he seemed to emote over.

[Zac Naloen]

Example?

Well, I was thinking how easy it was to take down an unshielded ship vs how much longer it took to take down a shielded ship. Case in point being Be all my sins. We see unshielded ships being taken out in seconds and then our heroes having to run the moment the advantage was lost. And then the battle at the end where the Asurans weren't losing ships left right and centre.

Three Ha'Taks vs The Hammond is concievably just too much of a numerical advantage.

[Zac Naloen]

Not sure what he is talking about either.

Only one ship ever has demonstrated resistance to Asgard beam technology. That would be the super Wraith Hive Ship.

We have seen Ori ships blow to bits in less than 4 shots, (ZPM enhanced) Hive ships toasted in as many or fewer, Wraith Cruisers in even less shots, (No Shields) and Ancient cruisers over the Asuran homeworld go down pretty well. (The Asurans barely lost 5 ships on screen from what I recall) The strange alien ship form the Daedalus Variations had its main armaments cripped with shots from a barely functioning Daedalus beam weapon (No shields) which shows that the weapon is not an Ori specific weapon, ( was this specifically stated in unending or did the asgard just say that it should be effective against the ori?)




There is still a long way to go between completely resistant and destroyed in seconds.

[Zac Naloen]

I've just thumbed through a transcript of unending, I can't find anywhere where it is stated that the beam weapons are specifically designed to take on the Ori and aren't just a brute force energy weapons.

There is clear evidence in the show that I can go into more detail on if you want that if a ship has shields up and sufficient power then it will last significantly longer against the beam weapons than if the shields are down. Whole minutes vs a few seconds. There is no reason to assume that the Hammond had the edge on three Ha'taks equipped with the latest of Anubis shield technology.



Oh and can someone fix my cock up above.

(Double Post Deleted -- LadyT)

[NecronLord]

I've just thumbed through a transcript of unending, I can't find anywhere where it is stated that the beam weapons are specifically designed to take on the Ori and aren't just a brute force energy weapons.

I'm not sure it ever said that. Just that they were the newest and most advanced thing.

There might have been something about them being made especially for this war, but that's about it, as far as I know.

Oh and can someone fix my cock up above.

Done.

[CaptJodan]

Well, I was thinking how easy it was to take down an unshielded ship vs how much longer it took to take down a shielded ship. Case in point being Be all my sins. We see unshielded ships being taken out in seconds and then our heroes having to run the moment the advantage was lost. And then the battle at the end where the Asurans weren't losing ships left right and centre.

Three Ha'Taks vs The Hammond is concievably just too much of a numerical advantage.

So in other words, when you said this:

Ships with shields up also seem to do pretty well against the beam weapons in Atlantis.

You really had no direct evidence of that statement being true. Got it.

I think it's also worth noting that the Asurans were losing ships, right until the end, at a pretty level rate throughout the battle we saw. There was no point in the battle where someone said "the remaining ships have raised their shields, we're doing very little damage".

The allies had surprise on their side, which allowed them to damage and destroy several ships up front. Even after that point, they were still destroying ships, but (and this is a point that seems to be missed in this discussion) the superior weapons AND numbers of Asuran ships were turning the tide, not their shields. We see several instances of their shields being overwhelmed, even one example by darts and 302s.

The strange alien ship form the Daedalus Variations had its main armaments cripped with shots from a barely functioning Daedalus beam weapon (No shields)

No, we don't know that. The first beam shot from the Daedalus wasn't shown on screen to hit. For a we know, the first shot actually penetrated and took down their shields. The no shields is an assumption.

( was this specifically stated in unending or did the asgard just say that it should be effective against the ori?)

I happen to be in the camp that these are brute force weapons, not Ori specific (before they started swatting Wraith, many fans wondered if they were just anti-Ori weapons). The fact that most here agree that they are brute force weapons, and that they penetrated Ori shields through brute force, should only support the idea that they should be effective against most forms of shields (Atlantis, Asuran gate Satellite are probably exceptions here).

There is clear evidence in the show that I can go into more detail on if you want that if a ship has shields up and sufficient power then it will last significantly longer against the beam weapons than if the shields are down. Whole minutes vs a few seconds.

Of course a ship is going to be more resilient with shields than without. Where's your example of whole minutes vs. a few seconds, though?

As an aside.
You DO know there is evidence of 304 shields actually being superior to Lantian designs, right? In Search and Rescue, they had a considerable amount of time under the guns of Micheal's cruiser. We get a calm, talking exchange between Caldwell, Carter, and John on the bridge, followed by a calm hallway discussion, followed by getting a jumper in position, followed by 302s launching and attacking. This took an on screen time of 125 seconds, from the moment Carter says shields are at 20% till the Wraith weapons are disabled and doesn't count the team getting from the bridge to the jumper, and flying into position. At the beginning of that bridge exchange, it was stated that shields were down 20%. They didn't fail in that episode.

In Travelers, we get a Wraith cruiser coming out of hyperspace and attacking an honest Alterran (not Asuran) ship. The shields on that ship are also said to be at 20% when the battle starts. From when the shields are stated to be at 20% till they fail in the episode lasts 73 seconds of on screen time. There could be additional time of John running to the chair that was cut, but nowhere near the same amount that it took John and his team to get from the bridge of the 304 to the jumper (in no great hurry, I might add).

[Zac Naloen]

I happen to be in the camp that these are brute force weapons, not Ori specific (before they started swatting Wraith, many fans wondered if they were just anti-Ori weapons). The fact that most here agree that they are brute force weapons, and that they penetrated Ori shields through brute force, should only support the idea that they should be effective against most forms of shields (Atlantis, Asuran gate Satellite are probably exceptions here).

Why bring it up then? I haven't seen anyone in this thread argue that is their purpose. The only arguement worthwhile having is whether a single ship could defeat 3 Ha'Taks.

Of course a ship is going to be more resilient with shields than without. Where's your example of whole minutes vs. a few seconds, though?

Be all my sins remeber'd. If they could take out a ship with it's shields raised in a reasonable time frame they wouldn't have needed to run when the Asurans got the drop on them considering how well their OWN shields hold up to Lantian weaponry. If Ha'Taks can be considered = Lantean/Asuran war ships as you seem to be implying below then that only strengthens my argument.