Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Simon_Jester »

Zinegata wrote:The primarch-centric nature of most other Legions is precisely why I say the Ultramarines are the only real "professional" force however. They're like the Roman Army - even if you go through many different Caesars, they'll still be able to recruit new troops and continue fighting because they were trained from individual trooper upwards to serve as part of a long-standing organization based on sound principles as opposed to simple cult of personality. They're not like the Macedonian army of Alexander, which fell apart as soon as Alexander died.
Most of the modern chapters are like that- even the 'warrior tribe' ones like the Space Wolves are quite capable of being Space Wolves even with Russ out of the picture.

Put it this way.

I don't disagree with the characterization of the Ultramarines as being professional. Or even with the idea that professionalism is their 'special thing.' After all, all the old legions had something special, something that other legions might have, but not so remarkably. It could be magic (Thousand Sons), tenacity in defense (Imperial Fists), ferocity (World Eaters), mobility (White Scars or Raven Guard, depending on how you view it)... et cetera.

They're an army based off a primarch who was one of the keenest strategists and politicians among his brothers- maybe not the best, but one of the top contenders and it'd be hard to argue who's better than him. So it's not surprising that what makes them remarkable isn't some signature tactic or method, it's strategic and political savvy.

But just because the Imperial Fists are tenacious defenders doesn't mean no other chapter can be impressive and tenacious and good at building fortresses. Or that another chapter is bad at these things, or that the Fists are the only really competent fortress-builders in the galaxy.

By the same token, the Ultramarines aren't or shouldn't be the only reasonably professional Astartes in the galaxy. Even if others have weird cultural rituals, or focus on specific aspects of war more than the generalist Ultramarines do, that doesn't mean they're inferior or unprofessional or stupid.
There's a sequence in KNF wherein the XIII Legion essentially has to confront the very real possibility that Guilliman is dead. And unlike the Luna Wolves, who essentially fall apart and panic after Horus' wounding (and stupidly had him over to Erebus), the XIII Legion basically just shrugs and keeps on fighting. Losing the Primarch shakes them, but their reaction is to fall back on their sound theoretical and practical analysis skills. They know what to do even if the Primarch isn't there to guide them along.
Are they the only legion that performs like this? Several legions lost primarchs during the Heresy and is there clear evidence they lost the plot that badly?

Granted, the legions that lost primarchs after the Heresy had more time to bleed, so to speak. We can't say one way or the other whether it wrecked their command structure.

Remember, though, my point was that without primarchs, some of the legions lose strategic direction. They may be quite competent at the tactical/operational level, but setting long-term goals about what the chapter should be doing a millenium from now isn't something modern Space Marines are good at. They tend to live in the moment.

EDIT: Honestly, I'd be unsurprised to learn that "personality cult" was the defining characteristic of the Chaos legions. Think about it- which legions are most likely to fall to Chaos? The ones where the average Marine feels comfortable questioning their primarch? Or the ones where everyone's so in awe of the primarch that they don't even bother to ask why the primarch is now carrying a demon sword and commanding them to pray to "new gods?"
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Orbital defenses don't seem like a very good idea; what good are the number of ships you can afford to have static over a planet really going to do against an enemy fleet? On earth coastal defense ships made certain sense prior to the invention of long range gunfire methods because they could exploit the narrow approaches of harbors for protection, but nothing like that applies in space. Otherwise you're just asking for a one sided slaughter.

Orbital stations meanwhile can't actually orbit or else for long periods of the orbit they'll be on the other side of the planet, or in a geosynchronous orbit they'd at times be tens of thousands of miles away, and still wander over a fair chunk of space. I've noticed sci fi largely ignores this point. If you want a defense station to stay over a point on the surface that's relatively small they need the engines to hold position independent of local gravity. So if they have shields and guns on the surface that already suffice to ward off a major bombardment attempt placing stuff in orbit isn't that big of an actual advantage.
The Imperium has several 'levels' of fleet. At the top you have the 'Imperial Navy' which controls the vast majority of (long range) Warp capable vessels, both commercial and military. They tend not to be too 'static' unless there is an important facility (EG naval base, shipyard, etc.) that needs defending - they patrol around sectors looking for trouble (or waiting for trouble to find them.) On the bottom most systems have a variable number of non-warp capable System defence ships - mostly escort size (hundreds of m to several km in length) dedicated to patrolling and keeping security in the system - delaying enemy invasions, keeping out pirates and raiders and the like, etc. The sublight ships may be backed up by (relatively) fixed orbital defenses - weapons platforms/satellites, mines (most of which are capable of mobility and guidance.), orbital stations at varying points (these may actually serve multiple roles - defense, commercial and shipping, docking facilities for large ships that can't land, habitation, mining, etc.) Sometimes the Navy may 'garrison' a key planet with its own sublight ships or orbital stations/defenses (or tow them in through the warp as they did with Vraks in this book) though most are the space equivalent of the 'Planetary Defence Force'. Oh and these can also include the aerospace defenses (you know, fighters of any kind. Vraks didn't have space or atmopsheric fighters, which probably is a blessing for the Imperium otherwise the Krieg would be getting even more brutally mauled.) There is a sort of 'gray area' in between that hints at 'short range' warp capable ships that exist (mostly within a subsector or sector) which includes at least commercial shipping nad may or may not (Depending on source) include warships of some kind (owned by planets, the navy, private armies, or some combination thereof.)

The point of those defenses is to keep the enemy from getting into close orbit for surveillance, orbital bombardment (general orbital superiority really), and generally making an orbital assault harder to pull off (for whatever reason, low orbit bombardment - sometimes high altitude - is the most 'effective' means for tactical bombardment, although plenty of geosynch/high orbit examples exist to suggest it can be done.) Ground based defenses can only do so much (again for whatever reason they're supposed to be limited to 'low orbit', but exceptions there too exist IIRC.) so you really can't 'deny' the enemy the orbital space without some defenses in place. Vraks has virtually NO orbital defenses, no space forces, or no air forces of any kind, which is a massive gap in their planning. Indeed they have to plug this little mistake up in THIS novel (after the fact again) after Chaos rampages in to reinforce the rebels on planet.

I would also note you were the one to actually broach the idea of how retarded the Vraks battle as a whole was, and this is me showing how much in agreement I am with you now. The lack of fighters/bombers and orbital starships ot provide support of any kind is a MASSIVE gap there, especially since the capability exists. Even if they can't keep warp capable ships on hand, they can tow in starforts/space stations, orbital bombardment/deployment platforms, haul in fighter wings, or towing in sublight system ships. It basically shows how utterly, completely contrived this storyline was from the get go, which is pretty much a problem of many IA books.
Zinegata wrote:That's the Augur round that was exclusive to the Leman Russ Conqueror variant, which sees action in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Honour Guard. It's good enough to punch holes (but not destroy) a Baneblade.
Yeah those. Mind you I'm not sure I trust IA to have gotten 'Augur' rounds right either (or it might be abnett in this case) because a HESH doesn't really make holes in the armour (at least it isn't supposed to.) Its meant ot create internal spalling of the armor. So if the HESH is putting a hole in Baneblade armour, there's likely problems there (of course 'augur' means to drill a hole in something, which isn't what HESH does. either.) Recall that IA also confused APDS and APCR, and apparently thinks guided, top attack munitions are rare (despite the proliferation of hunter-killer missiles and various guided missile launchers, both man portable and Sentinel equipped. hell forge world PROVIDED the Sentinel variants! Given the fucking bore of a Battle cannon, having the Russ fire gun luanched missiles actually makes more sense than the idea its firing a battleship-sized cannon shell. Oh and the rocket-propelled ammo for Baneblades, EArthshakers, and bolters.)
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Another IA6 update. Things degrade even further (at least for the Imperium. Things are going darn well for Chaos.)

Page 24
As well as his uniform, a Death Rider wears an ornamental breastplate. This is a cumbersome item, worn as a matter of tradition rather than practicality and many units choose to discard the item, especially when on long-range patrols, in order to conserve weight. It is made of plasteel with a hardened chrome facing.
Ornamental armor. I'm assuming that if its not much use, its a very low grade of plasteel, since other (effective) body armor is also sometimes made of plasteel. At least this time they HAVE a reason for discarding their armour, although this being one of the few cases of any Kriegers having body armour at all makes it even more silly.

Page 24
The Death Riders' role as a siege regiment's reconnaissance forces (as well as acting as second-wave shock troops during a breakthrough) means they must carry alot of equipment.
Krieg Rough Rider roles.

Page 24
The Death Rider's primary weapon is his explosive hunting lance. This 3.5 metre long weapon is constructed of a hollow lightweight metal shaft tipped with a spear point, which is also connected to the impact fuse of the weapon's shaped charge. This small explosive charge is constructed to direct the blast and fragmentation forwards the target and away from the user. Once detonated the user is left with only the shat, which is then discarded.
It occurs to me that this is more like a air to air missiles "Annular blast fragment warhead" here rather than a "fist to finger" armor piercing shaped charge. It could be the blast is also meant to propel the spear point forward (Some sort of explosively driven penetartor like an EFP perhaps?) Then again they probably have more than one kind of explosive spear (just in case you want to replicate that myth of horsemen charging tanks, I guess.) but I imagine it would be good against heavily armoured targets (like CSM.) If they're charging you I imagine a guy on a horse might be better than sending your own troops in melee. As long as they don't decide to use bolters (Khornates maybe?)

Page 24
The skewer like 95cm blade is designed to resist buckling in the impact of a thrust delivered at the charge.
Cavalary saber nerly a metre long.

Page 24
The Death Rider's mount is a heavily genetically modified version of the original Terran horse that no longer resembles its ancient ancestor. Having been designed to endure the worst battlefield conditions its physique is far stronger than a normal horse's, with its hind legs being able to clear trenches and power the creature through thick mud or over rubble. Its splayed feet are also better adapted to moving in heavy terrain.

The creature is almost hairless. It no longer has any tail, only the remaining stump and its mane has almost entirely been bred out, leaving just short bristles which do not become tangleda nd require no maintenance. Its neck is longer with broader shoulder and girth.

Psychologically these creatures are far more aggressive than their domestic ancestors, with drug injectors being used to make the creature fealress in fhte face of an enemy. In battle the ctreature will charge directly into an emeny and will not be startled by weapons fire or explosions. Due to the creature's unstable body chemistry, it has to be ocnstantly monitored by its rider and stabilised with additional chemicals. This means the creature can sustain injuries tha twould kill lesser creatures, but leaves many with horrible scars from previous wounds. It is equipped with armour to protect its head and a respirator system to protect it from poison gases and toxic atmospheres.
Krieger uber-mutant death horses. Sounds scary, but I must admit that the "unstable body chemistry" suggests they are not as useful on "independent operation" from supply lines as other rough riders might be (Eg the Tallarn ones from Taros.) Assuming the Krieg would even know what 'independent operation' or 'recon' is (not mathematicla enough?)

Part of me also wonders that if they can do this to horses, they must be able to do it to some degree on people. Similar examples do exist (lostock regiments and Gland Warrios in general, various underhivers on Necromunda, etc.). Then again it makes you wonder why they don't do augmetics instead of the chem crap. Heck, wasn't there some source indicating cyborg horses for some Rough Riders somewhere? I don't remember if it was Krieg or not.

Page 24
These creatures are grown in vitagenic cloning vats deep below Krieg, with production being carefully monitored by Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis. Each creature is individually number branded for identificaton purposes.
Again, this makes me think the same things happens with the Krieg troops. Given their attitude towards their human soldiers (and equipment), the "number instead of a name" bit, and the "vitae birth" stuff from part 1, it sounds quite likely. Krieg quite probably is something of a 40K version of the "Grand Army of the Republic." (which is pretty ironic given how they were deployed on Geonosis, for example or in some cases with the Clone Wars toons.)

If that's the case, have they considered doing this with other worlds? Not sure I'd want more Krieg-like troops, but its an interesting speculation, much along the same lines of why troops dont' get augmetics more often (given how useful they are. Maintenace issues perhaps, given the novel Ice Guard, but that may also be quality dependent and depending on source. augmetics tend to be as 'variable' evidence wise as everything else :P)

Page 26

Force dispositions for the siege of Vraks
Enemy forces on Vraks - circa 841823.M41
Vraksian Renegades: 50,000 Disciples of Xaphan (est), 10,000 Garrison auxilia (est.), 1.5 million Labour Corps (est.), 500,000 Planetary defence forces (estimated), 1.5 million Militia (estimated), 250,000 Frateris Militia (estimated), 1 million other Vraksian Renegades (estimated).

Legionii Excommunicate Triatorus: 11 Chaos Space Marine warbands identified, numbers unknown. Skulltakers, the Sanctified, Berserkers of Skallathrax (World Eaters sub factions). Lords of Decay, The Tainted, Apostles of Contagion, The Purge (Death Guard sub faction), Steel Brotherhood (Iron Warriors sub-faction)
Unaligned: the Faithless (alpha legion warband, Akros), Black Brethren of Eyreas (Possibly Black Legion sub faction), Adharon's Reavers

Other renegade forces: 500,000 (estimated)

Triator fleet assets: Anarchy's Heart (Despoiler class), Blood Dawn (styx class), Fallen Sun (slaughter class), Ferrum Invictus (Devastation clas), Gore Feasters (Iconoclast class) Damnators (Infidel class), Armed Transports (duh), Aharon's Bane (heavy transport.)

Even ignoring the fleet assets, we have at least an estimated half a million heretic forces onplanet to assist the already 'millions' strong heretic army. And some hundreds, perhaps thousands of CSM to assist (which is even worse when coupled with everything else the Vraksian renegades have, including a void-shielded, defensible position.) Yep, not plugging the defensive orbital gap despite having YEARS to do so was a great bit of strategery.

Oh and Chaos Titans. yep they landed Chaos titans as well.

Page 26
As the columns of dust advance,d they [officers] surveyed the horizon for the approach of the enemy, knowin gthat first to appear would be the towering figures of the Titans.
In fact the first enemy strike came as a complete surprise as airacraft usddenly materialised in Vraks' turbulent skies. Like angrry hornets they plunged down on the advnacing tanks, which found themselves completely without anti-aircraft defences.
..
Aircraft had not featured in the Vraks war previously. Suddenly a whole new dimension of the battle was opened up, and instantly the enemy had aerial supremacy over the entire theatre.
Air warfare comes to Vraks. Krieg wasn't ready for it, the Vrakians apparently didn't have it either (probably not a shock, since that's normally Navy stuff, and it may be that the PDF air forces are distinct from land based PDF forces the way the Navy and the Guard are separate.) Of course, why the Vraksian PDF had no air or space fighters/bombers is right up there with the absence of any orbital/space based defenses at all too. The Imperium had years to exploit this too, remember.

Also note the horizon bit. Plays a role in next quote.

Page 26-27
On the horizon the first enemy were now in sight. The bright flash of Titan heavy weapons opening fire could be seen. The lead tanks encountered the first enemy ground troops, Chimera borne infantry were alreay in position and waiting ot open fire. To the left and right the tell-tale dust columns of advancing armour could be seen.

The Centaur tows had halted and the field artillery peices were being quickly man=handled to readiness, ammunition carriers coming forward to deliver stockpiles to each gun. Soon the rapid thump of quad launchers was reverberating across the battlefield, their four shells landing in quick succession..
Implies that Titans are engaging the Krieg tanks shorlty after cresting the horizon. Given the ~22 meter height given for Reavers, we might go with a 15-20 km range or thereabouts, whcih does match with other sources (earlier titan stuff, Titanicus, etc.) It's implied that the Krieg forces (artillery at least) responds fire shortly. Possibly the other super heavies as well, but the artillery responding is unsurprising. I suppose if the Kriegers have enough guns and if thematic crap can stay quiet, they might have a chance. Aw, who am I kidding. They're fucked.

Page 27
At the front it seemed that the first enemy infantry positions had been overrun, smoking Chimera hulls now added to the obscuring haze, but the Titan's long-range weaponry had found its range and was starting to exact a heavy toll. The brown dust columns were turning ot blue-black smoke as the tanks were destroyed by the massive power of turbo-lasers, gatling blasters and volcano cannons. The tanks were returning fire, their armour piercing shells whining off the Titan's void shields with eelctric blue flashes. It was an uneven fight, evne with the super heavy tanks in support. One Shadowsword found itself a firing position from which to engage the advancing Titans, but saw repeated blasts flicker off the void shields to no effect. A return blast from a turbo-laser struck the tank's main gun and damaged it. Seconds later a succession of blasts tore through teh engine compartment and superstrucutre, immolating the command crew. The survinvng hull crew bailed as the Shadowsword crackled and smoked behind them, its fully charged capacitors threatening to detonate. As the crew sprinted for the rear, the air was thick iwth fire. Tank rounds and laser blasts by the hundred scorched across the battlefiled as artillery rounds started to fall.
Effect of Titan weaponry on the tanks. It is worth noting that it is implied that tank weapons were being used against the Titans, but its not sure whether they mean the Russes, or possibly the non-energy weapon equipped superheavies (Baneblades, Macharius, etc.) Possibly both. Then again a Titan is also a large, relatively static target.

Also can I reiterate how stupid it was to allow the enemy to land ANY forces at all, nevermind fucking Titans? I also am wondering how they got them down. Wasn't the Imperium supposed to have captured the Space Port or something? I can't remember whether or not I cover them recapturing it or not at this point - I vaguely recall CSM going on a rampage and the Kriegers being sent packing in short order by this point, but not much else.

Page 27
Led by the ominous, squat bulk of Chaos Space Marine Land Raiders, Predators, and Vindicators, the Traitors armour traded shots with Leman russ tanks.
..
The battle had raged for two hours, growing in intensity, but vox-reports were soon indicating that the tank attack had failed. The enemy were advancing again, Titans stalking through the smoke and explosions.


The enemy hadn't advanced for two hours, but apparently the Imperials tried to. It does lend some credence to the idea that the engagement ranges above are mostly accurate (although possibly not for the Rsuses. maybe half that against a titan-sized target although the exact range will depend on how long and how far the Imperium advanced unopposed. A Russ could eaisly close to within a few km or less in two hours.)


Page 27
In all nearly 70 tanks had been sacrificed, including 11 super heavy tanks, along with 27 artillery pieces and yet uncounted tows and infantrymen.
Total Krieg losses in tanks. Remember TANKS ARE RARE AND VALUABLE and moreso than troops. Yet IIRC they sacrificed these to hold off the enemy while the Kriegers ran off, or something. Shouldnt the proper thematic bit be to throw even more troops into the grinder and preserve the tanks?

Page 27
The 3rd, 5th and 15th regiments abaondoned their trenches..
..
the 30th was also to withraw and esablish a new positon anchored on teh ruins of hab-zone two.
..
They would be reinforced b yother units from 11th assault korps, forming the army's backstop. hundreds of thousands of men and vehicles were now on the move..
4 regiments abandoning formation constitutes "hundreds of thousands" of men. This would suggest those 4 regiments are at least half strength or higher, assuming the earlier 100,000 man (or so) nubmers are accurate. Or was it 160,000? I lose track in this crazy shit.

Page 27
What had once been a war with a clearly defined frontline had become a much messier affair, with the Krieg regiments now forced to face in many directions to meet the enemy. THe situation in the eastern sectors had become very fluid.
Such is part of what is expected of the Guard in these novels. They never know what sort of enemy or situation they might face or be thrown against, so they have to be prepared for anything (At least according ot the Tactica Imperialis) - this is an example of precisely that. The only people who suffer more are perhaps the Eldar. But I guess its all very thematically appropriate and shit so it doesn't matter, right?

Page 31
Malcador heavy tank bearing runes of Nurgle. This vehicle has taken (and survived) a direct hit from a meltagun. In this case it is likely that the running gear was destroyed by the impact and the immobilised vehicle has been recovered and the tracks and wheels repaired.
Effect of mletagun blast. Note the Malcador was part of the Vraks reserves, showing they at least (initlally) were stockpiling obsolete vehicle models. Which sort of makes sense I guess.

Page 34
News of the perilous situation now developing on Vraks reached the ears of the Lord Militant Obscurus...
...
From his massive fortified command centre, he had a view of the entire strategic situation across the whole Segmentum. A very powerful man, with thousands of armies at his command and with a direct line of communciation back to Terra nd the High Lords...
..

Now it fell to those same men to resecue everything.
Implies that even with the "hands off" approach the Imperium has to take, they can at least remain broadly aware of (and have some influence over) distant events (at least at a segmentum level.)

Also a segmentum levle lord militarnt commands "thousands" of armies. Note that apparently tere are 'lord militants' at both sector and segmentum level, which further reinforces that idea that the organization of various adepta and military forces (Guard, Navy, Administratum, Munitorum, etc.) tend to differ from each other only in terms of the scale they operate at, but are virtually identical in function.

I also find it a bit puzzling that once Vraks has fallen apart they somehow have to appeal to HIGHER authority to fix things, given that higher authority is going to be much more distant from Vraks. As I've noted before, the Codex depcition (ever since 2nd edition) is to start locally and then expand outwards for support - but the only troops ever deployed here wer from Krieg. They never actually called in forces from nearby worlds (not even conscripts) If the situation on Vraks were that dire, wouldn't they have started working up through the ranks rather than sending off to the segmentum HQ?

Page 34
He had already empowered Prefect Istar Ornus to investgate the situation whose first recommendation was to replace 88th Army's command staff. THey had failed in their duty and failed the Emperor, squandering the vast resources that had been made available by the Departmento Munitorum.
Again even when you're using attrition tactics, there is such a thing as wasting resource and that is punishable. Of course in this case this is like replacing that screen door you put on the submarine a week after sailing away...

Page 34
Placid and assured, with the full knowledge that a man of his elevated social rank [Zuehlke] could not fall far from grace. Zuelkhe was already lined up for a command position on the staff of the 7003rd Imperial Guard army, mustering ot counter continued Ork attacks by the Great Despot of Dregruk. It was for those beneath him to bear the wrath for this failure. Those that had not already sort appointments elsewhere faced banishment to penal regiments or field commands on the EAstern Fringe to face the growing Tyranid invasions. This was as good as a death sentence for most, as few men who faced the alien Tyranids ever returned.
More political games. Kinda hard to see how Vraks might have gotten to the state it was given all this, isn't it? Now he can go fuck things up and help the Orks!

And at least 7000 armies in the segmentum. Again why aren't there local forces being tapped?

Page 34
With the command structure of 88th army being revised, a power vaccuum formed.

...

..if anybody should bring him to justice it was the forces of the Emperor's Ecclesiarchy. They coul dprovide their own forces to help stabilise the battle on the ground and avert defeat, but only on the condition that they could appoint their own commander. These claims were backed by the Scarus conclave of the Ordo Hereticus, who had their own inquisitors ready to take command. They would seek to impose the Inquisition's rule on all of the 88th siege army and could induct the whole organisation into their ranks.
..
It was a powerful alliance and lobbying and intriguing to take command of 88th army was ferocious. In the halls and corridors of power, the 88th siege army seemed ot be a prize many wanted control over.

But the Departmento Munitorum would hear none of it. The siege army must remain under Administratum control and it was their lines of supply and their materials the army was relying on. If they could not appoint their own commander, then the priority status of the war would have to be reviewed, warned Prefect Ornus. It was unlikely that anybody hwo took control could hope to win without the Departmenot Munitorum's full support. They might suddenly find that supplies were less abundant and replacement manpower for Krieg rgimetns was now needed on other battlefields.
Politics politics politics. Even in War time. Note the interplay of factions involved.. the Ordo Hereitcus and Ecclesiarchy want the role, refuse to commit forces (the eccleisarchy does anyhow, the Inquisition says they'll just take charge) if they don't get their way. The Munitorum (Administratum likely too) counters this by saying they'll deny material support (even if it means losing Vraks.) It's a rather potent threat - whilst in theory an Inquisitor can requisition anything, that doesnt mean that unofficially the Munitorum can't muck things up to impede such orders.) As I said, politics.

And still not seeing a locally raised military force being brought in. I mean its not like the warfare situation hasn't changed. Shouldn't they be thinking outside of siege/trench warfare terms? Oh wwait this is the WW1 edition of IA, we can't just abandon that.

Page 34
As supreme commander, the Lord militant Obscurus felt it was his right and duty to find a replacement despite being petitioned by all sides. He had a difficult politicla job reconciling all parties. In the end he reserved the right to appoint the commander of the troops in the field and allowed his most vocal opponents to find men to join the new commander's staff and fill the administration roles. With many unhappy with the final outcome, the command of the 88th army would e under pressure to immediately transform the campaign. THE Ecclesiarchal lobby still presisng strongly and withholding their support until such time as their influence was sufficient to warrant the deployment of their military might.
Yet more politics, and proof that the Ministorum are dicks. Of course at this point its getting hard to tell who is and isn't a dick.

Page 34
He [Marshal Arnim Kagori, replacement commander for 88th Army] was also a man of strict routine and fixed ideas about how a war should be fought. He had commanded the 13th Palladius siege regiment during the long siege of Hive Thestis.
...
The new commander would mark a change in the Imperium's approach to Vraks. For him, the siege had already dragged on far too long. It was now time to commit more forces for and break the dfenders once and for all.
I have to admit this one made me roll my eyes. CSM forces show up, the war has become more fluid and yet.. they throw another trench warfare expert into the fray, and one who obviously ISN'T very adaptable. I really want to blame this on grimdark or politics, but given that the entire army on Vraks is Krieg, I doubt that it would hav mattered who they sent. although politics odes seem to play a role.

And note again, they're still not tapping local forces to bolster the invasion. I think what they do is bring even MORE kriegers in at this point. I guess they couldn't find a way to stick the Elysians or Tallarn into this conflict.

Page 34
First ot be approached for forces was the forge world of Lucius. This mighty planet had strong connections with Krieg regiments and had provided many of the war materiels for the siege.
..
..and the Titans of Legio Astorum - the Warp Runners, were called upon.
..

A battle group of Titans owuld be deploed to reinforce the siege regiments and provide the ultimate in heavy firepower.
some of the "changes" being called upon to win Vraks. Now this Titan Legion comes from Lucius, which I gather is close to Krieg, which means that its hauling in Titans from a vast distance away the same way the Kriegers are. I *really* find it hard to believe this is the closest Titan Legion available. all I can figure is politics is in play and no other Forge world is dumb enough to get involved.

Page 35
Exotic creatures were sacrificed and their blood used to anoint each Titan's foot, symbolic that they would lay the blood of their enemies at the Emperor's feet.
ALL HAIL THE OMNISSIAH! Go ahead and laugh, thats why I included it. At this point we need a laugh and its not like you cna make the Imperium look any worse here. (or so I thought at the time...)

Page 35
..the regiments of Krieg would need a fresh injeciton of manpower and the production lines of regiments on Krieg was called upon to provide it. More men, including many specialist engineer companies would be needed in greater numbers than ever.
..
The Imperial Navy would provide the ships and the protection for the relief convoy and also placed a fighter wing and a bomber wing at the service of the siege army.
..
The slow war of attrition was being upgraded to total war, using almost every means at the Imperium's disposal.
"total war" (note the quotes, thats deliberate) is the new name of the game. At least the air forces will help some as will the Titans. and again we see Krieg is ponying up more troops for this cluster fuck alone (nevermind anywhere else.) which also means troops are being ferried through the warp directly from Krieg. Which (as I noted before) i supposed to be uncommon. Although to be honest I'm no tsure what good one fighter wing would do. I'm pretty sure thats at most scores (or a few hundred) planes at most.

That said we're still stuck in 'trench warfare' mode, and they're still not responding to this conflict as they normally would (or should), and blah blah blah so on.

Page 35
Since the begining of the war, the Imperium's commanders had suspected that Cardinal Xaphan's forces were in possession of proscribed weaponry. Vraks had once been used as a safe storage dump for chemical weapons that had been forbidden thousands of years ago.

..
It was one of the reasons Krieg regiments had been chosen to conduct the siege. They were troops hardened enough to face such weapons of mass destruction without breaking.
Yep. It woudlnt be a WW1 style attritional War without the chemical weapons. As if the massive trenching wasn't enough. Frankly they're lucky no virus warheads, cyclonics, or nukes (or nuke like weapons) were stockpiled there, although they probably would have orbital torpedoes...)

Page 35
Chief amongst the chemical weapon stores was the toxin Trimethyline-Phthaloxyci-Tertius, known as TP-III.

TP-III was a horrible combination of highly acidic and corrosive heavy gases. Greenish in colour, it was lethal if breathed in, killing in less thna 30 seconds due to massive damage to the respiratory system. Concentrations of TP-III caused acidic burning and rapid corrosion, melting skin from bone in minutes. In strong concentrations it could corrode through metal and armour. The chemical's acidic gases were highly volatile..
Sounds like a Virus Bomb to me.

Page 36
They [Nurgle warbands] would seek to turn Vraks' already infectious enviroment into a toxic nightmare of disease and pestilence. To this end they forcibly seized the secret supplies of TPIII and prepared to put them to use.
Nasty, but acid/chemical weapons are technically not disease or viruses. OOPSY?

Page 36
The clouds of TP-III had a hideous effect. All Krieg guardsmen had been trained to meet chemical attacks and fight on regardless. They were well equipped for just such events, but against the acid soaked cloud repsirators provided little protection. The concentrated acid burned through protective clothing and respirator masks. It melted armour and corroded metal equipment. In minutes it would strip a naked man to bare bones. Then it began to envelop the front lines. Skin blistered and burned as their protective clothes decaed, exposing the guardsmen to the full horrors of the acidic enviroment. A respirator failure resulted in an agonising death, acid burning the respiratory system and melting lungs so that blood bubbled up from within, foaming from the mouth and nose of its victims even as flesh melted away to expose white bones beneath. In places the chemical was less virulent and the Krieg guardsmen's protective equipment coped well, but where the gas was densest it destroyed everything in its path. entire platoons were wiped out in a few nightmarish minutes, turning guardsmen to bubbling, steaming pools of sticky flesh as it struck.
Effects of Virus Lite. Krieg NBC gear is only partly effective. This gets me wondering - shouldn't the Imperium have KNOWN about this? Anticipated their use sooner? Made preparations.. oh hell who am I kidding.

Page 36
...began tossing blight grenades into dug-outs. These exploded with powerful blasts, spraiyng more acid and toxins into the air and filling dug-outs with thick noxious fumes. In close combat their powered armour was more than a match for the Krieg bayonet, which was easily turned aside or just snapped on impact.
..

Traitor Space Marines cleaved through armour and helmets, hacking and slashing their way through the guardsmen as they fought desperately to defned each trench.
..
No other Imperial Guard regiment could have withstood the onslaught of acidic gas and bolter fire so well, but they could not hold out for long.
Blight grenades, failure of bayonets to pierce power armor, armoued Krigers (at last?), and a reiteration of just what Krieg is good at (fighting and dying fantically and stoically for no real purpose.)


Page 38
The Departmento Munitorum insists that Imperial Guard regiments are accompanied by a cadre of Commisars, as part of their indoctrination into the Imperial Creed and to help ensure continuing loyalty. Drawn from disparate planets and cultures, an Imperial Guardsmen's loyalty and devotion to the Imperium's cause is sometimes questionable and often requires reinforcing.

..

Once their rigorous training is complete, they are assigned to Imperial Guard regiments in warzones across the gaalxy and expected to immediately take up a role motivating troops, instilling loyalty and maintaining discipline. A Commissar must be vigilant at all times for signs of moral weakness in the men, and more importantly, in the regiment's officers, as well as keeping a wary eye on any sanctioned psykers attached to the regiment. High ranking Commissars will have a wealth of battlefield experience to draw upon and will also act as additional tactial adivsors to the command staff.
Commissar stuff. Note the bit about "motivation" and "instilling loyalty." as well as being advisors. Not so much about "shooting the first man you see to make an example of him."
On the other hand, you also have the Munitorum assumption that no regiment can be trusted at all to remain loyal, hence the need for Commissars. I think this book actually makes me pity the commissars that have to put up with all this. The poor bastards wouldn't know where to begin executing incompetents (And if they did, would they have an army left?)

Page 38
This Commissar-General's uniform is heavily decorated and braided, as befits his senior rank. Many Commissars frown upon such ostentation and prefer a more puritanical, unadorned appearance.
This would suggest, along the lines of Gaunt's Ghosts and similar "dual rank" cases, that Commissar-officers and Commissars are two separate breeds.

Page 38
Many [Commissars] expect to lead from the frontand carry power weapons and power fists. This Commissar is attached to the regimental headquarters and is not expecting to lead men in combat so he has kept his weaponry to the basics. The laspistol allows the Commissar to carry out his powers of summary discipline. All Commissars are empowered with the ultimate sanction of battlefield execution over those they deem to have failed in their duty. His main target iwll be weak or inadequate officers, but is not restricted to these. Should a Commissar-General feel that it is absolutely neccessary, he is also empowered to remove the commanding officer from his post and take over command of the entire regiment.
Here we get mention of the execution function. Although its described essentially as the last resort (if deemed neccesary) and odly seems to be specifically aimed at officers rather than just troops - at least in this case. Of course it also mentions that the officer may merely be removed from command (without executing, since execution would automatically remove them from command. I'm pretty sure that even the Death Korps feel that aving a living officer is a requirement for their way of fighting.) Of course we know from the last book Krieg Commissars must act as voices of moderation and reason, which (given how Commissars are perceivedin a 'thematic' way usually) really tells you how fucked up the Kreigers are.

Also Commissars have good acess to power weapons.

Page 38
The Ensign wears the carapace breast and backplate issued to all the regiment's senior officer's security staff, as these men wil be expected to accompany the commander on ceremonial duties as well as on the battlefield.
Carapace armor again. I'm assuming this is not ornamental.

Page 39
Behind him [Commissar] is Ensign 232-165-87509-19-Dseke
I just wanted to include one "name" of a Krieger for shits and giggles, and because it (to me) reinforces the "Clone" idea. Or maybe the 'grimdark people don't matter' angle the Kriegers are supposed to be. Note this also stands out as a rather obvious contrast from the WoU Krieg since none of them ever get numbers in their names. (They even have last names!) So any Krieg with a last name is probably not a meat droid.

Page 40
The Death Guard and their allies were not interested in fighting this war of attrition. It mattered not whether Vraks stood or fell. All that mattered was that the Lord of Decay would be pleased by the wanton destruction and corruption of Vraks' surface. They were preparing the ground, creating a toxic land, making Vraks a home from home for these creatures of Lord Nurgle that were unseen bug eater to join the fray and spread their own dleicious diseases among Mankind. This was not war as the Death Korps of Krieg's commanders understood it.
One of the key things to note about Chaos: It's goals can be counter-intuitive or alien. Khorne does not care who neccesarily dies in war (his men or the enemy) as long as someone dies, and bleeds and gives up their skulls. Nurgle does not neccesarily care about winning or losing a war, but he cares about having death and decay and disease perpetuate through that war. This is both a strength and a weakness to Chaos, and in this case it can make fighting them all the harder in some ways (But easier in others, since they don't care about the survival of their 'allies' except as it pertains to their own ends.)

Page 40
For almost a year the 88th army had to endure defeats, withdrawals and retreats at the hands of the reinvigorated enemy forces.
A years worth of lives, resources, and time passing, although a fair bit of conservation and defensive warfare clearly applied. Not that it seems to help....

Page 40
All communication with the 19th Siege regiment ceased at 735823.M41
..
But Marhsall Kagori had been working unceasingly and on 084824.M41 his fleet was ready ot set course for Vraks.
Note the year when this convoy sets out for Vraks, and when 19th was defeated. Not as fast as the calc in IA5 for FTL speed, but it still implies less than a year to transit between Krieg and Scarus. How much so we can't say (and its possible in this case conditions in the warp have worsend over the years.) Doesn't include the fact of decades of constant resupply (troops from Krieg.) Again by Imperium terms, the cost and logistics of operating on this scale must be considerable for them, but it does show they can do it and maintain it (if motivated to do so. although doing it when cheaper alternatives exist....) Then again they put massively huge distances on their ground based supply lines too, so why not in space?

Page 40
It was a fleet containing a convoy of transports and supply ships, including the precious Legio AStorum Titan transport, defended by a pottent flotilla of escorts.
...
The twin Luna[r] class cruisers Duke De Walle and General Dyhane were detailed to defend the convoy, along with a full strength escort squadorn of eight Sword class frigates. The new Battlefleet Scarus fleet entered Vraks system ready for the second Battle of Vraks.
The new Vraks invasion force. No battleships, but it is interesting they expect 2 Lunar class curisers to be able to stand up to the Despoiler. Also note the 8-frigate escort squadron, perhaps the largest "squadron" in the history of 40K ever mentioned (normally 2-6 is for escorts)


Page 40
The convoy's approach was slow and cautious, surrounded by their escorts, the transports' stately progress towards the planet was carefully plotted.
..
For the first few days there was no contact with any enemy vessels
They appeared to make most of the way through the system, indicating it took several days at transport speeds to get through the system.

Page 41
The battleship's great plasma reactors roared into life and power surged down her ancient cables nad cicruits...

..

The Battleship's first salvo impcated with crushing force. Two escort vessels vanished in expanding lcouds of wreckage and space dust s they took repeated hits from the battleship's big guns. The Duke De Walle's shields were screaming as repeated laser impacts flared off them, a second volley raked her hulla nd destroyed starboard thrusters and manoeuvre drives. One supply transport, loaded with ful and ammunition, was crippled and left drifting.
Despoiler ambushes the fleet. See how important space based assets are?

Page 41
The two cruisers closed into effective range themselves, and although the Anarchy's Heart was a potent vessel and her armour was thick, she could not afford to ingore two capital ships.
Again, suggesting the two Lunar class cruisers together are capable of threatening a battleship. I'm sure this represents a contradiction with some other source, given that I remember Despoiilers being some big badass ship design.

Page 41
Lances and macro-cannons pounded at the two cruisers. The Duke De Walle was caught in the maelstrom, riding the impacts as if tossed by a stormy sea. She was burning, massive oxygen leaks bleeding flames into the void.
Battleship weapons impacts seem to impart noticable momentum ot the ship, possibly ven despite engine compnesation (hence the "tossed by a sea" analogy) - probably from explosive vaporization of the target's armour or impacts on voids (SPACE SHOCKWAVES AND WEATHER!) Of course the cruiser ends up "crippled and dying" and has to be scuttled. The other remaining Lunar won't even pursue a damaged Despoiler either. Whether this is something worthy of calcing, or just laughing at for the whole 'space shockwave' bit, I haven't decided.

Page 42
Soon men by the thousands, tanks by the hundreds, ammuintion by the hundreds of tonnes, fuel and all manner of equipment were being landed and prepared for immediate transport to the front.
Supplies unloaded, although if this was per drop or what we aren't told. I'm assuming this is all a very vague lowballing, otherwise they're in trouble.

PAge 42
In all there were 22 Titans...

..

Ten Reavers towered above all, tall and imposing. Before them strode 12 Warhounds.
Titan forces dispatched to Vraks.

Page 42
Although the lines of command di not permit him to give the Legio Astorum Princeps direct orders, his reports tot he lords of Lucius forge world would influence any decision they made.
As we know, Titans are not part of the formal command-force of the Guard and are allies and must be dealt with accoridngly. Those poor bastards don't know what they're heading into.
It also occurs to me - if they're deploying a huge titan force, wouldn' t it make sense for them to deploy massive skitarii forces to back them up? At least to protect their investment, given the reverence they have for Titans and shit.

Page 42
With the system now secured, more supply convoys were arriving every week, millions of artillery shells were being transported and stockpiled at the artillery positions, ready to unleash a massive bombardment which would last for weeks before the first men went over the top.
Supply convoys arriving on a weekly basis. Presumably they cannoy afford to supply many convoys, say two alternating round trips. If we knew the distance covered we might estimate FTL speed. If we literally assumed a month or two round trip ( weeks either way) assuming the earlier 30-40 thousand Ly trip we get between 360,000-720,000c for 30K Ly and 480,000-960,000c for 40K LY. Again I'd just call it 'hundreds of thousands of c' generally' and say it fits in broadly with the OoM range of FTL values established for the Imperium in general, with a potential towards the higher speeds (high hundreds of thousands to low millions of c) sometimes suggested.

And millions of shells stockpiled each week... a massive bombardment also lasting "weeks".. we can assume millions of shells is a week's worth perhaps? That's an incredible amount of firepower if so (lets assume millions of shells for 4 weeks or a month. 2 million shells over 30 days is ~67,000 shells per day. With a ROF of one per minute over a whole day.. that's 46 guns. A bit small considering 360 guns (at least) were mentioned before. so we're probably tlaking alot more shells.. hundreds of thousands.

If we assume each shell has 15-20 kg of TNT each - roughly baslisk shell size , were talking over a thousand tons of tnt delivered every day.. again though that probably is alot higher. but its still incredible firepower for conventional munitions even if on a daily basis.

Page 43
The 1,000 tonne metal monsters of Legio Astorum were advancing, crushing everything in their path.
Reaver titans are mentioned as massing 1000 tons.

Page 43
Wherever the Chaos Space Marine warbands joined the fighting, the Krieg infantry faired poorly. The 5th regiment had come under intense attack from enemy chemical weapons and sustained heavy losses. In response the regiment requested that they be allowed to respond in kind. Marshall Kagori, against the advice of many of his staff, granted permission for their own chemical weapons to be used as a direct response. The 5th regiment's barrages were soon soaking the land in more toxic poisons. Little did they suspect that they were playing inot enemy hands, even with the losses inflicted.
Krieg suck against AStartes, and trying to gas Nurgle minions is dumb. Are we surprised?

Page 44
Such displays of individuality are not favoured by Krieg regiments, whose indoctrination requires them to sublimate individuality to the greater purpose of the Death Korps and the Emperor. But the Departmento Munitorum's regulations governing the equipment of Imperial Guard regiments do require that officers distinguish themselves from the rank and file, as figures of inspiration and authority on the battlefield.
More evidence of the clone-like nature of the Kriegers, even if they aren't actual clones.

Page 44
Krieg officers are selected by performance and aptitude during basic training and must then complete an additional vigorous raining course.
I guess the Munitourm doesnt neccesarily object to "promoting from the ranks" was opposed to "officers are nobles" approach. Now if they would just bother promoting the right people...

Page 44
His gas mask is a lightweight unit. Lacking the large regulator unit it is only used for shorter durations of exposure and is generally issued to staff officers who woudl otherwise spend their time inside sealed command bunkers.
a lighter, less enduring gas mask. This does suggest that if the respirator fails the mask itself might still function for brief periods (allowing a replacement or repair perhaps.)

Page 44
The breastplate is the same as that issued to Death Riders. It has been polished to a gleaming shine for ceremonial duties. In practice it provides little extra proteciton.
But officers don't ditch it. Symbols of authority and all. Again its so predictable - the any time Kriegers are issued armour, its no good at all. Or they're elites. But hey at least their heads and shoulders are (theoretically) well protected.

Page 44
The Death Korps of Krieg reject the awarding of medals for individual bravery, as this is expected from Death Korps guardsmen, and all indoctrinated are willing ot face the direst threats without regard for their own survival. It is not in the Death Korps ethos to recognise individual achievements and those born into the Korps do not seek such. Their training requires them to become just a faceless small coc in a vast war-making machine. Service to the Koprs and the Emperor are regarded as reward enough for their sacrifices.
A mentality no doubt lauded by Munitorum highers up, and pushed onto other regiments in hope that it will stick like that whole 'technology more important than people' crap. Probably doesnt work out that well in practice, since Kriegers dont get along with other regiments too well. I do suppose fanatacism has its advantages though.

Page 44
The officer's gorget is actually a small refractor field generator, worn for personal protection by high ranking officers and officials, the generators are oftne disguised as jewellry or decoration.
Force field defenses aren't uncommon.

Page 44
Staff officers and higher ranking officers (above the command of actual regiments in the field) are often seconded from other Imperial Guard regiments or from the noble classes that provide mucho fhte Imperial Guard's upper echelons.

..

Krieg officers, witht heir narrow doctrine of attritional trench warfare, are not generally considered to be suitable for the more political and diplomatic ranks amongst the staff of an army command.
Some command elements are important help, and Krieg officers (and their doctrines) are not always favored. Big shock.

Page 48
Turbo-lasers and volcano cannons flashed, void shields sparked and flared, blazing under the high energy impacts of massive weapons. soon missile launcher pods were empty. The ammunition hoppers of the gatling blasters were running low as the six barrelled battle cannons hammered out shell after shell. Plasma reactors were straining under the demand - Techpriests and servitors working furiously to direct extra power ot the void shields and weapons as the Titans growled and groaned under the stresses. Evenly matched, the Titans tore at each other, rocking under the impacts, armour scorched, rent, and dented.
Titan battle. Note the 6 barreled battle cannon. While 'battle cannon' can range from anything to Leman Russ to what Baneblades carry to what thunderhawks/marauders sometimes carry.. it shows a rough scale of what constitutes battle cannon might be calibre-wise. Depending on source, this could be equivalent to Baneblade BC or it might be Russ BC. As a Titan scale weapon having it match up to a Baneblade makes sense (esp given the Russ and Vanquisher labeled with a 120mm tank gun), but the ludicrously oversized muzzles of model and picture Russes make it fit too (hell by some depcitions its actually too small!)

Page 48
Closing with the enemy the Reaver was raked by fire from a Vulcan mega-bolter, the roar of its gatling barrels spitting out thousands of rounds per minute was knwon as the 'the laughter of the devil' to Titan crews, but the last of her void shields was overloaded and shut down. Before the Techpriest could power up the generators and raise the shields again, the Titan took a direct hit to the command bridge. A super-heated blast melted through the thick armur and blast shielded screens, immolating the entire bridge crew in seconds.
Scaling of the Titan's bridge yields it to be ~2 meters to a side, so lets assume a ~2 meter box. Assuming it melts oh, 50% of that mass (call it an Order of magntidue estimate in any event) and made of iron and 90% empty, the mass would be ~6 tonnes. Scaling a ratio of the titan's dimensions (discounting empty spaces) ad accounting for titan mass it would be 1 tonne.

It takes ~1 MJ to melt 1 kg of iron, so 1 GJ to melt one ton, or 6 GJ to melt 6 tons at 100%. half that is clearly 500 megajoules to 3 GJ. Its nowhere near a precise calc, but I'd guess more towards the conservative end given what other weapons are capable of.

Also Vulcan mega bolter has thousands of rpm rate of fire.

Page 48
The Titanic battle lasted all day, giants duelling over the heads of the men below...

..

By the end of the second day, when the Titans withdrew, little extra ground had been captured. Day three would see the batlte resume and then continue into day four.

..
with the Titans re-armed and battlefield repairs completed by the cowled Adpetus Mechanicus ordnancers that accompanied the Titan battle group, Drauca again led his survivors back into the inferno.
2 day endurance, roughly?

Page 48
Striding amongst the tanks, each Leman Russ closely followed by a huddle of grey infantry, the Reavers and Warhounds marchd unharmed through the enemy's first artillery barrages. After five days of constnat battle the enemy line was thinning.

...

Now, outnumbered and bearing the scars of the last three days encounters, the Legio Vulcanum war machines pulled back to regroup.
Titans seem to be able to battle semi-constantly for around two days before needing resupply. This of course depends on how the fighting goes (is it constant or do they manuever for much of it, like in Space?)

Page 48
The enemy infantry could not hold alone against Drauca's firepower. They managed to topple one Warhound with the direct hits of a battery of Basilisks - repeated artillery shells evnetually sending the Warhound crashing to the earth to lie forlornly amongst the mud, but it was their only success.
Artillery can - eventually - knock down a small Titan it seems, eventually. Probably due more to momentum than raw firepower. A titan isnt much good off its feet after all.


Page 48
Their [Warp Runners] battle losses - some four Reavers and seven Warhounds would have to be replaced from Lucius. It was estimated that in all a dozen enemy Titans had been destroyed,...
Losses at the end of the battle. For once they favor the Imperium. I bet they still suffered horrendous Meat Droid losses in the process.

Page 61
Kagori's plan involved using these troops, all well trained in the digging of mines and counter-mines, to tunnel under the Vraksian defences, allowing his men to bypass strong points or attack them from the rear, thus limiting their effectiveness. By adding a new dimension to the war firstly he hoped to take the enemy by surprise and gain quick victories over the strongest enemy positions and secondly that the enemy would lack thre srouces to match his plans and be at a strategic disadvantage..

..
If neccessary he would dig his way right under the fortress and bypass its defence lasers and void shields altogether.
The new plan for Vraks.. using the Engineer regiments to attack underground. Sounds silly, but then again the Imperium does have some interesting ways of pulling this off in theory.

Also note that the fortress has void shields as well as defence lasers. I guess the voids don't extend underground at all - or very far.

Page 61
This [prepartions for undeground warfare] involved making detailed geological studies of their assigned sectors. Small teams of engineers were sent forward to begin drilling deep bore holes. These would determine the depth fo the usable rock strata (and as a useful side effect also locate underground water sources for drinking water for th earmy), and hence allow them to gauge the suitability of the geology in each regiment's sectors for offensive tunnelling. It was planned that the tunnelling would ultimately serve one of two purposes. Shallower tunnels would allow for the quick and safe movemtn of men for surprise attacks (sap tunnels), or deeper tunnels would be dug to undermine enemy defences and position large 'mines' - a massive collection of explosives that could be detonated from below, destroying a position ahead of a surface attack.
..

Vraks itself was not particularily suited to large scale military mining operations.
Nonetheless as noted, its not a good enviroment to be doing this (the text lists the topmost layers for shallow tunnels being soft and porous - too unstable for tunnels, and prone to flooding and dampness.) Even with deeper tunnels flooding was a risk, and the deeper they go, the harder the digging is (and the more problems with breathing and ventilation.) I'm still praying there's an upside to this.


Page 61
All of Vraks' many large armoury facilities had been constructed undeground, an the labour corps had been required to do all that mining work. amongst the Foot troops of Vraks were already many men very familiar with the digging of mines and tunnels, and well equipped for just such tasks with cutting and boring equipment.
U nderground facilities.

Page 62
..the first task of the engineer squads was to sink a shaft ot the required depth. These were vertical tunnels, accessible via ladders, or incline tunnels down which heavier equipment could be moved.
..
Initial progress through the softer outer layers was rapid, even if dug out by hand, with pre-fabircated bracing being added as the shaft depeend.
..
Using geo-thermic auspex devices, the squad's listner kept upa constant vigil, listneing for enemy counter-digging.
More tidbits about the tunnelling.. the geothermic auspex is interesting.

Page 62
As a tunnel progressed, so additional power cables could be run along it, pumps to remove excess water were fitted and winches positioned at the top of the shafts to move bulky equipment and spoil bags.
..
As the tunnel war progressed throughout the siege so these narrow [one or two man] tunnels became guide tunnels for the creation of wider galleries by heavier tunneling equipment.
Power cables are meant to be used to handle perhaps some pumps and later heavier equipment.

Page 62
Collapsing charges, also known as torpedo charges or mole launchers due to their distinctive hsape, were used ot create a directional blast that would collapse the enemy tunnel. Krieg engineers carried such specialised equipment, whilst the enemy could fabricate their own using blasting charges. A charge would be set by boring it into the side of the tunnel, blocking off the gallery with a wall of sandbags (to contain the explosion) and running a detonator cable back to a safe distance, usually the surface.
Relative of the good old Mole Mortar I imagine. Back in the day 40K really LOVEd tunneling stuff (underground torpedoes, troop transports, etc.)

Page 62
If the enemy had detected a tunnel and had not been detected in turn, mole launcher attacks came without any warning. Just as on the surface where sudden death could come at any moment from a stray artillery shell, so the engineers endured a war where death struck mercilessly and unheralded.
Yep. In 40K you get underground artillery.

Page 63
Through his monocle eye-piece he counted as six enemy miners, tools in hand, pistols holstered, passed them and scurried off into the darknes..
Engineers, as we find out, have NVG.

Page 63
A grenade exploded, sending a powerful blast wave racing down the tunnel and knocking Zolts and his men to the ground, dazed and winded. In the confusin Zoltz had also been shot in the arm and could feel his tunic becoming damp and sticky with blood.
..
Three of Zoltz' engineers had been injured.
..
Another grenade exploded, its trapped force sent a second shock wave through his squad and filled the tunnel with blinding grey smoke. Both the engineer defenders had been cauht in the blast and killed.
enemy using grenades and projectile weapons mainly, but they may not have hit on armored parts. The Grenades probably killed via shocwkave rather than shrapnel so armor may not be of great use.

Page 63
The enemy were close beihnd in the darkness, firing blind after him, bullets whined and buzzed around Zoitz as he made his escape. One buried itself in his rigid breastplate, shattering his torch.
Engineer carapace stops a bullet of some kind.

Page 63
Here the main objective was the capture of the large undeground armoury, known to be located at 554-467, which was sitll being used as a stockpile and a safe shelter for enemy equipment. It had already been heavily shelled by the siege guns, but with little effect as the important war materials were buried deep underground.
If we use previous defintiions of shell crater depth along with other examples (EG Storm of Iron for a Basilisk), the armoury woudl be at least a good 10-15 meters below ground.


Page 64
Krieg engineer uniforms are a modified version of the standard infantry uniform.
..
The uniform is impregnated against chemical and biological attacks.
Krieg engineer uniform provides the usual NBC protection. Which seems to be its only protective quality. I guess they couldnt even be bothered to give the Krieger infantry flak greatcoats. Nope regular coats for you!

Page 64
All engineers carry shotguns as their standard weapon. In the confines of tunnel fighting, the weapon's short range and inherent inaccuracy is not a major drawback, and its hitting power at very short range makes it useful to engineers whose fire fights are typically short and lethal. The shotgun's blast means they can sweep a tunnel clear and potentially hit multiple opponents in a single blast.
This implies that the Krieg Engineer shotguns are more powerful/effective weapons than their lasguns. Whether its per single shot or multiple shots, I dont know.

Page 64
The weapon is a Lucius pattern Mk22c semi-automatic shotgun. It has an eight round revolving magazine, uses a gas-operated self-loading action to fire and can be loaded with a vareity of ammunition, including solid slugs, pellet loaded canisters and low velocity flares. The revolver action is prone to mechanical failure, but the weapon's high gauge and the heavy catridge fired make it a deadly weapon at very close quarters, although it is infamous for its feroicious recoil.
The recoil bit is interesting, but I think most shotguns are pretty recoil heavy aren't they?
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Black Admiral »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Page 24
The skewer like 95cm blade is designed to resist buckling in the impact of a thrust delivered at the charge.
Cavalary saber nerly a metre long.
Also, despite the description (a heavy, straight-bladed thrusting weapon), the sabre carried by Death Riders is actually illustrated in that section as a light, curved slashing weapon. :P
Page 27
At the front it seemed that the first enemy infantry positions had been overrun, smoking Chimera hulls now added to the obscuring haze, but the Titan's long-range weaponry had found its range and was starting to exact a heavy toll. The brown dust columns were turning ot blue-black smoke as the tanks were destroyed by the massive power of turbo-lasers, gatling blasters and volcano cannons. The tanks were returning fire, their armour piercing shells whining off the Titan's void shields with eelctric blue flashes. It was an uneven fight, evne with the super heavy tanks in support. One Shadowsword found itself a firing position from which to engage the advancing Titans, but saw repeated blasts flicker off the void shields to no effect. A return blast from a turbo-laser struck the tank's main gun and damaged it. Seconds later a succession of blasts tore through teh engine compartment and superstrucutre, immolating the command crew. The survinvng hull crew bailed as the Shadowsword crackled and smoked behind them, its fully charged capacitors threatening to detonate. As the crew sprinted for the rear, the air was thick iwth fire. Tank rounds and laser blasts by the hundred scorched across the battlefiled as artillery rounds started to fall.
Effect of Titan weaponry on the tanks.
Which is rather unimpressive by most instances.
Also can I reiterate how stupid it was to allow the enemy to land ANY forces at all, nevermind fucking Titans? I also am wondering how they got them down. Wasn't the Imperium supposed to have captured the Space Port or something? I can't remember whether or not I cover them recapturing it or not at this point - I vaguely recall CSM going on a rampage and the Kriegers being sent packing in short order by this point, but not much else.
Actually, the Dark Angels damaged Vraks' spaceport "beyond repair" in IA5; as for how the Chaos dudes landed Titans, they crashed a superheavy transport into the planet. So, yeah, the Dark Angels sure spent close-on two weeks and a fifth of their Chapter well destroying Vraks' spaceport.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Zinegata »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Yeah those. Mind you I'm not sure I trust IA to have gotten 'Augur' rounds right either (or it might be abnett in this case) because a HESH doesn't really make holes in the armour (at least it isn't supposed to.) Its meant ot create internal spalling of the armor. So if the HESH is putting a hole in Baneblade armour, there's likely problems there (of course 'augur' means to drill a hole in something, which isn't what HESH does. either.) Recall that IA also confused APDS and APCR, and apparently thinks guided, top attack munitions are rare (despite the proliferation of hunter-killer missiles and various guided missile launchers, both man portable and Sentinel equipped. hell forge world PROVIDED the Sentinel variants! Given the fucking bore of a Battle cannon, having the Russ fire gun luanched missiles actually makes more sense than the idea its firing a battleship-sized cannon shell. Oh and the rocket-propelled ammo for Baneblades, EArthshakers, and bolters.)
The description in IA implies they're HESH rounds, since they mention that it's essentially a lump of explosive that sticks to the armor of a tank a split second before detonating. IA then further notes the round was supposedly a failure and it's no longer in production. I don't think they specify if it does damage via spalling or via armor-cracking though.

It's only in Honour Guard that we actually see them in action, and the effect of two rounds is to punch / crack a pair of holes on a Baneblade. Abnett doesn't get into specifics about how the Augur rounds work however - except to say that most tankers do NOT carry them since their standard ammunition is often sufficient for most targets.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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HESH is a bad idea for attacking heavy armor anyway; since stuff like boxes on the outside the hull, tow hooks, any sort of reactive armor, any sort of spaced or special armor, can potentially make it completely ineffective. This is why it was invented to breach concrete, and then only ever used by the British against tanks from tank guns. The US had it for 106 recoilless rifles for a while, was soon abandon.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Simon_Jester wrote:Are they the only legion that performs like this? Several legions lost primarchs during the Heresy and is there clear evidence they lost the plot that badly?
I'd probably need to read more of the HH books to definitively say "Yes", but based on the descriptions of other Primarchs it's rather clear that most of them do rely on personal charisma to lead their Legions, as opposed to letting the Legion think for themselves.

Don't get me wrong - the Luna Wolves for instance are allowed to argue with one another. Some are even allowed to talk back to the Primarch without getting beheaded (don't try that with the World Eaters). But when push came to shove their foundation wasn't this free exchange of information between fellow professionals, but their personal connection with the Primarch.

And it's not just limited to the ones who turned to Chaos. Sanguinius in particular seemed to be able to lead his Legion based on his pretty boy looks alone (to the point that Abnett has to dispel the notion of Sangui's pretty boy nature in KNF - wherein Guilliman specifically says that while some of the Primarchs are handsome in an angelic way, none of them are heartbreakingly beautiful)

There's in fact an excellent passage in KNF wherein Guilliman essentially evaluates each and every one of his brothers, based on a "sane" outlook (i.e. modern-day sensibility). And his evaluation is NOT pretty. He rightly thinks a good chunk of his brothers are psycho, and who are stuck at being just weapons and nothing more (Peturabo, Russ, Khan, Angorn, etc). The next biggest chunk are brothers who are full of angst (Konrad) or mysteriousness to the point of mystical or conspiratorial uselessness (Vulkan, the Lion, Corax). Lorgar in his view is an embarassment and childish, who needs a spanking to make him grow up. Meanwhile, the only ones who aren't nuts have towering egos that dominate their Legions - most notably Horus.

As a result, he tends to be friends with only a small handful of his brothers, and only places absolute trust on a small number of Legions (the "Dauntless Few") who he believes are capable of doing the right thing in a doomsday scenario. Notably, these ones are Russ (because he can be relied upon to be the Executioner), Dorn (stubborn), Ferrus (apparently even MORE stubborn), and Sanguinius (who everyone seems to like - and in Horus' case it's almost fanfic-creepy).

But even so, the Dauntless Few seem to have been chosen based on the personality of their Primarchs, as opposed to the quality of the Legions without their Primarchs. This againn leaves the Ultramarines as the only real "professional" Legion - guys doing a job that has to be done to serve the state - because everyone else is too focused on their personal schticks and interests to act as responsible adults. One gets the real feeling that Guilliman is trying hard to be the only sane man in an Imperium that was already pretty fucked up and dysfunctional even before the Heresy.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Sea Skimmer wrote:HESH is a bad idea for attacking heavy armor anyway; since stuff like boxes on the outside the hull, tow hooks, any sort of reactive armor, any sort of spaced or special armor, can potentially make it completely ineffective. This is why it was invented to breach concrete, and then only ever used by the British against tanks from tank guns. The US had it for 106 recoilless rifles for a while, was soon abandon.
Interestingly, I'd have to note that the Imperium's Leman Russ tank seems to rely mostly on powerful HE shells (or maybe HEAT shells) for both anti-infantry and anti-tank work. The two main variants are the standard Leman Russ - which in-game is a very powerful HE shooter (with the shell so powerful that it obliterates light vehicles and does serious damage to most tanks) and the Leman Russ Demolisher - which essentially has a shorter-ranged but more powerful version of the regular gun for city fighting and destroying fortifications.

The only variant that seems to rely on kinetic energy for penetration is the rare Leman Russ Vanquisher variant - which are generally seen (if at all) serving as a "gun tank", ala how British Sherman platoons in WW2 had three regular Shermans and one Firefly.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by madd0ct0r »

so the chaos titans have identical weaponry to the imperials?

neh, i know forgeworld have a catalog to follow but that seems a bit bland.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Zinegata wrote: Interestingly, I'd have to note that the Imperium's Leman Russ tank seems to rely mostly on powerful HE shells (or maybe HEAT shells) for both anti-infantry and anti-tank work. The two main variants are the standard Leman Russ - which in-game is a very powerful HE shooter (with the shell so powerful that it obliterates light vehicles and does serious damage to most tanks) and the Leman Russ Demolisher - which essentially has a shorter-ranged but more powerful version of the regular gun for city fighting and destroying fortifications.
One would assume they use some kind of HEAT then. HEAT is never as good as HE for soft targets, but if you jacket it with a fragmenting sleeve it isn't awful. Shorter range but more powerful suggests either they can change the barrel on a common chamber and mount a bigger, shorter one. Just firing a heavier shell with a reduced charge would make much more sense if you wanted some level of commonality, but I assume that is not the case if the vehicles are explicitly different, as this would just be different ammo. Big variances in artillery ammo weight for range purposes used to be common, aren't anymore in real life because everyone always wants more range. Though, a modern 120mm gun kind of makes a joke of most fortifications anyway as you could probably put a sabot round through thirty feet of concrete. Demanding bigger guns for urban fighting made more sense in WW2 when typical tank guns were 75mm. Depends what you want to do though, and just how absurd 40K stuff really gets
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by madd0ct0r »

conclusion - plascrete as used in 40k is more then 30 time tougher then modern concrete.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Ugolino »

One gets the real feeling that Guilliman is trying hard to be the only sane man in an Imperium that was already pretty fucked up and dysfunctional even before the Heresy.
You forgot the Alpha Legion. :twisted:
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Sea Skimmer »

madd0ct0r wrote:conclusion - plascrete as used in 40k is more then 30 time tougher then modern concrete.
Or they make terrible ammunition which seems entirely possible given that the people in charge are incompetent and it might be stored for hundreds of years before being fired.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Ugolino wrote:
One gets the real feeling that Guilliman is trying hard to be the only sane man in an Imperium that was already pretty fucked up and dysfunctional even before the Heresy.
You forgot the Alpha Legion. :twisted:
He said "only sane man" (although I do think Guilliman's misreading Corax and Vulkan in KNF), not "utterly gullible morons who fall for blatant lies". :P
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Zinegata »

Gwilly doesn't actively say anything bad about Corax or Vulkan, but he does seem irked by how mysterious / mystical the two are; to the detriment of state interests.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:conclusion - plascrete as used in 40k is more then 30 time tougher then modern concrete.
Or they make terrible ammunition which seems entirely possible given that the people in charge are incompetent and it might be stored for hundreds of years before being fired.
Also I wanted to add but had no time, one could greatly increase resistance by only doubling or tripling compressive strength, I'm talking in terms of 5000psi concrete which is pretty standard, up to 18,000psi has actually been used for construction today, though very rarely, and also one can also just over reinforce concrete like materials so they will fail in compression, but leave lots and lots of rebar in the path of a projectile. You wouldn't do that for a normal building, for a bunker it can make sense if you were unable to make large armor plates but had steel bar to spare.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Zinegata wrote:The description in IA implies they're HESH rounds, since they mention that it's essentially a lump of explosive that sticks to the armor of a tank a split second before detonating. IA then further notes the round was supposedly a failure and it's no longer in production. I don't think they specify if it does damage via spalling or via armor-cracking though.
Yes, that I understand. My point is though, IA has a habit of getting things wrong. (CF the blatant confusion betwen APCR and APDS between image and description. We're supposed to believe one of those is the Vanquisher round, remember.) It wouldn't surprise me if 'augur' rounds were confused as HESH but intended to be something else like a shaped charge/krak round.

Although to be fair to FW in this case it could have been abnett that confused Augur (but given the name I would expect them to be armor penetrating too, and I'm more sympathetic to that view than Squash heads.)
It's only in Honour Guard that we actually see them in action, and the effect of two rounds is to punch / crack a pair of holes on a Baneblade. Abnett doesn't get into specifics about how the Augur rounds work however - except to say that most tankers do NOT carry them since their standard ammunition is often sufficient for most targets.
going by what Sea Skimmer says, that is NOT a good thing. Which means either Baneblade armour is crap (which heads us back into CONVENTIONAL STEEL) territory, or augurs are something other than intended, or (most likely IMHO) the round they used wasn't an augur round but something else. Maybe it was a melta charge.

Zinegata wrote: Interestingly, I'd have to note that the Imperium's Leman Russ tank seems to rely mostly on powerful HE shells (or maybe HEAT shells) for both anti-infantry and anti-tank work. The two main variants are the standard Leman Russ - which in-game is a very powerful HE shooter (with the shell so powerful that it obliterates light vehicles and does serious damage to most tanks) and the Leman Russ Demolisher - which essentially has a shorter-ranged but more powerful version of the regular gun for city fighting and destroying fortifications.
That's pretty much how I thought for most to explaint he short barrel (and overhuge muzzle diameter, which I think would favor HEAT) but that still requires driving a wedge between fluff/images if you still intend to make a literal analysis of the artwork/imagery, becuase the fluff makes it clear its 120mm (smoothbore in one, rifled by IA) and that it carries up to 40+ rounds or thereabouts (good luck doing that with 200-300mm shells.)

The Munitorum manual vehicle guide (no longer up on the BL website, unfortunately) mentioned 'anti tank' shaped charge rounds being part of the inventory, although it says they're as rare as AP so which is supposed to be the tank killer we don' tknow. It certainly isn't HE.
The only variant that seems to rely on kinetic energy for penetration is the rare Leman Russ Vanquisher variant - which are generally seen (if at all) serving as a "gun tank", ala how British Sherman platoons in WW2 had three regular Shermans and one Firefly.
Some novels (including honour guard) mention subcalibre rounds being used by other vehicles, but mostly they seem to use full calibre anti-tank rounds. The funny thing is we often get implications they still have velocitiies comparable to modern tank weapons (EG Cadian Blood against the Ork tank wall, or the 'hyper-velocity' references for Conqueror guns in Honour guard.)

In 'game mechanics' you could stick longer barrels on russes as an unofficial game modificiation (the same way Hydras can have lengthened autocannon barrels) so I imagine barrel length and ammo type may not be the only thing to distinguish VAnquisher's weapons. They're supposed to defeat ANY armour remember, which technically can be meant to include titan armor.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Sea Skimmer wrote: Though, a modern 120mm gun kind of makes a joke of most fortifications anyway as you could probably put a sabot round through thirty feet of concrete. Demanding bigger guns for urban fighting made more sense in WW2 when typical tank guns were 75mm. Depends what you want to do though, and just how absurd 40K stuff really gets
How absurd do you want to go? If we include some of theoutliers we can include 105mm '60 kilotonne KE' tank guns. Or there were always my really lousy conqeuror calcs (you know the battleship scale recoil ones which have no validity :P) Oh and there are all those 'tank gets hit by something and knocked violently metres sideways or over onto its side. And there was one case where a Russ survives a 200 metre fall landing on top of its turret more or less intact, I've always been told that is supposed to be impressive durability-wise (although IIRC the material might have been sand.)

That said, performance-wise I'm settling on figuring 40K tanks might be around that '20 MJ' threshold modern tanks are supposed to be shooting for (or have reached, I dont know what is going on with tank weapons tech now.) like with the 140mm guns. I currently don't see them being much higher than a few times above modern, not much more than an OoM or so (unless things change dramatically) for most shells. At least, as far as the weapons go, and there are still some tradeoffs (EG I'm still sure that even at comparable velocities, the APFSDS modern rounds would outperform Leman Russ full calibre 'armour piercing' rounds in terms of KE dropoff due to range and penetration - for obvious reasons.) Recoil I find tends to be the biggest limiting factor and there seems to be no real way to handwave it (although I've seen modern tech has tried to do so, Eg the RAVEN tech stuff for recoil management)
Sea Skimmer wrote:Or they make terrible ammunition which seems entirely possible given that the people in charge are incompetent and it might be stored for hundreds of years before being fired.
Again this being 40K it is quite possible to argue it one way or the other, depending on context. Hell one world might even have 'super durable' mateiral and then another could be chalked up to 'shitty ammo'. I certainly wouldn't rule out either possibility out of hand without more evidence.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Connor MacLeod wrote:That said, performance-wise I'm settling on figuring 40K tanks might be around that '20 MJ' threshold modern tanks are supposed to be shooting for (or have reached, I dont know what is going on with tank weapons tech now.) like with the 140mm guns.
IIRC the number was 18MJ. And it represents the ultimate goal for the kind of guns that were to be part of the next stage in the cold war tank arms race. The things were supposed to be about 140mm in diameter and use exotic solid or even liquid propellants and electro-thermal-chemical ignition systems.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Purple wrote:IIRC the number was 18MJ. And it represents the ultimate goal for the kind of guns that were to be part of the next stage in the cold war tank arms race. The things were supposed to be about 140mm in diameter and use exotic solid or even liquid propellants and electro-thermal-chemical ignition systems.
I've seen 18 MJ and I've seen 20+ MJ and I've seen 'twice current tank guns KE' or variations of that. It's been stated in alot of different ways and its just an approximate threshold. And IIRC tank guns went up to 150mm for some proposed designs, it was the problems with the sheer size of ammo (problems loading it and the reduction in ammo supply a tank could carry. Recoil I believe was a serious issue too.)

Other methods were EM guns, Electrothermal (which I believe evolved from pure ET into ETC because it required less electricity.), liquid propellants and other approaches I vaguely recall being explored (travelling charges, which I think was where the propellant was attached to the base of the round and provided a stronger push all the way along the barrel, but there were design issues that made it unfeasible IIRC. also some 'travelling charge' ideas got mixed up with liquid propellant so its hard to separate the two. And then there was something else - ramjet ammo I think - although likewise that never went anywhere seriously due to issues.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Connor MacLeod wrote:going by what Sea Skimmer says, that is NOT a good thing. Which means either Baneblade armour is crap (which heads us back into CONVENTIONAL STEEL) territory, or augurs are something other than intended, or (most likely IMHO) the round they used wasn't an augur round but something else. Maybe it was a melta charge.
It's possible that the Augur shells in Honour Guard are indeed not the same as the ones in IA. The Pardus tanker who uses them is seen as unconventional for even loading the rounds not because they were weird, but rather because they were actually extremely powerful and seen as overkill against the foes they were used to seeing. I think the exact words were "It wasn't often that Imperial tankers expected to meet an enemy genuinely more powerful themselves, but Captain Sirius was a tactically sound man". I can get the exact quote, but that's the gist of it.
In 'game mechanics' you could stick longer barrels on russes as an unofficial game modificiation (the same way Hydras can have lengthened autocannon barrels) so I imagine barrel length and ammo type may not be the only thing to distinguish VAnquisher's weapons. They're supposed to defeat ANY armour remember, which technically can be meant to include titan armor.
Yeah. To complicate things further though there are also at least 3 official variants of the LR Vanquisher, each apparently with its own subtle differences to the point they don't even seem to be using the same gun!
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

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Connor MacLeod wrote: How absurd do you want to go? If we include some of theoutliers we can include 105mm '60 kilotonne KE' tank guns. Or there were always my really lousy conqeuror calcs (you know the battleship scale recoil ones which have no validity :P) Oh and there are all those 'tank gets hit by something and knocked violently metres sideways or over onto its side. And there was one case where a Russ survives a 200 metre fall landing on top of its turret more or less intact, I've always been told that is supposed to be impressive durability-wise (although IIRC the material might have been sand.)
Supposedly Poland demilitarized old tanks under the CFE treaty by throwing them off a cliff into a quarry, because it was cheap, so 200m fall would tend to indicate a great deal of strength, but not in a very useful manner. After all some of the best composite material for resisting gunfire known to man will break if you drop it a few feet; but that's the whole point, it breaks to absorb energy. But actually I was talking about the the buildings and fortifications tanks might need to destroy in urban combat. I've visited a US fort in which the main protection for the 12in battery was a wall consisting of 12 feet of non reinforced concrete, then 40ft sand fill, then 14ft non reinforced concrete 47 feet tall from ground level, and this was built 1894-1900 and yet would stop nearly any modern weapon today (30,000lb bomb on a rocket sled is only surefire way to beat it), but it depends on what you want to do ect and how big a target is acceptable...
http://fortwiki.com/images/4/4e/Fort_De ... t_Plan.jpg

That said, performance-wise I'm settling on figuring 40K tanks might be around that '20 MJ' threshold modern tanks are supposed to be shooting for (or have reached, I dont know what is going on with tank weapons tech now.) like with the 140mm guns.
The effective muzzle energies of 120mm sabot's are well under 20 MJ, more like 9-12 MJ effective max depending on if 44cal or 55cal barrel was being used and a few other things. The various 140mm guns were aiming for the 20 MJ range but all have been abandon as improvements to the quality of 120mm ammo could meet most of the actual penetration requirements. I've yet to see anyone even guess at the Soviet/Russian 152mm projects energies.

I currently don't see them being much higher than a few times above modern, not much more than an OoM or so (unless things change dramatically) for most shells. At least, as far as the weapons go, and there are still some tradeoffs (EG I'm still sure that even at comparable velocities, the APFSDS modern rounds would outperform Leman Russ full calibre 'armour piercing' rounds in terms of KE dropoff due to range and penetration - for obvious reasons.) Recoil I find tends to be the biggest limiting factor and there seems to be no real way to handwave it (although I've seen modern tech has tried to do so, Eg the RAVEN tech stuff for recoil management)
Well, they don't use muzzle breaks from what I see in the art, which is just dumb since they work great if you don't have a requirement to fire sabot ammunition. Still options for absorbing recoil would include firing out of battery, a double recoil system which is a bulky but not impossible option on a tank, or a longer recoil stroke if you had enough turret volume, depression would suffer most. If they used a muzzle break you could be taking away as much as 50% of total recoil out of hand, though numbers like 30% are more likely for major caliber artillery. Several times current muzzle energy should not be an undue problem for vehicles of similar weight.
Again this being 40K it is quite possible to argue it one way or the other, depending on context. Hell one world might even have 'super durable' mateiral and then another could be chalked up to 'shitty ammo'. I certainly wouldn't rule out either possibility out of hand without more evidence.
I suppose so. Also if people felt like spending the money, no reason you can't have tungsten rebar in your 12,000psi concrete that I can think of which would already absurdly reduce the effectiveness of a modern sabot. If the average bunker is like Battery Torbert with the roof of a U-boat pen, jacked outside with foot thick face hardened armor and inside with two foot thick homogeneous armor buried halfway into the world trade center disaster site after it was covered in sand, you might be needing some rather serious guns to cope with that. As it is, the siege of vraks anyway, doesn't seem to give any real detail on stuff like this.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Supposedly Poland demilitarized old tanks under the CFE treaty by throwing them off a cliff into a quarry, because it was cheap, so 200m fall would tend to indicate a great deal of strength, but not in a very useful manner. After all some of the best composite material for resisting gunfire known to man will break if you drop it a few feet; but that's the whole point, it breaks to absorb energy.
Some sources mention spaced and/or reactive armour for tanks and even composites (although usualyl for more high end tanks). Most of the basic Russes (at least by Codex standards) seem to rely on bare metals (albeit magic metal. I guess 'modern' seeming composites would be too high tech for the 'theme')
But actually I was talking about the the buildings and fortifications tanks might need to destroy in urban combat. I've visited a US fort in which the main protection for the 12in battery was a wall consisting of 12 feet of non reinforced concrete, then 40ft sand fill, then 14ft non reinforced concrete 47 feet tall from ground level, and this was built 1894-1900 and yet would stop nearly any modern weapon today (30,000lb bomb on a rocket sled is only surefire way to beat it), but it depends on what you want to do ect and how big a target is acceptable...
http://fortwiki.com/images/4/4e/Fort_De ... t_Plan.jpg
Yeah that sounds like the scale of 40K construction: thick, thick walls for fortifications like that (esp. authors with a siege warfare fetish.) I'd guess thats WW2 era fortification?
The effective muzzle energies of 120mm sabot's are well under 20 MJ, more like 9-12 MJ effective max depending on if 44cal or 55cal barrel was being used and a few other things. The various 140mm guns were aiming for the 20 MJ range but all have been abandon as improvements to the quality of 120mm ammo could meet most of the actual penetration requirements. I've yet to see anyone even guess at the Soviet/Russian 152mm projects energies.
I figure 120mm guns are probably ETC guns, maybe with some sort of exotic/magic propellant (If magic metals, why not magic gunpowder?). ETC seems like something that would work for 40K guns. Some might even manage pure electrothermal (some weapons mention using a laser to vaporize propellant for propulsion in some way, which sounds like Pure ET to me.)

The 140-152mm thing is mostly a sop to the silly pictures with the OMFG HUGE BARRELS and some need to keep AP rounds in play for the huge barrels. Artwork for the most part needs to be handled abstractly. I figure 140-150mm would cover 'big diameter' guns the artwork portrays, without addressing the insanity of scaling it out (which wouldn't be consistent anyhow. I've tried.) and I would make note of all the drawbacks associated with guns that large (which neither fluff or artwork acknowledge.) I will admit a speculative part of me wonders how over the top 140-152mm ETC guns would be.

I think) RAmjet tank ammo concept was supposed to be the 'next step' alongside liquid propellant. One source mentioned an unverified 1400m/s for the concept, but not much data existed. Same with teh travelling charge stuff I've been interested in (cuz of bolters mainly) but again not much data on performance or quite how it works is available.

Well, they don't use muzzle breaks from what I see in the art, which is just dumb since they work great if you don't have a requirement to fire sabot ammunition. Still options for absorbing recoil would include firing out of battery, a double recoil system which is a bulky but not impossible option on a tank, or a longer recoil stroke if you had enough turret volume, depression would suffer most. If they used a muzzle break you could be taking away as much as 50% of total recoil out of hand, though numbers like 30% are more likely for major caliber artillery. Several times current muzzle energy should not be an undue problem for vehicles of similar weight.
I've heard of FOoB, don't think I heard of double recoil though. and I considered a longer recoil stroke for some things but that runs into the same problems as the lack of muzzle brakes - the size of the 'artwork' turret is ludicrously tiny and creates a ton of problems.

Muzzle brakes (IIRC) have been mentioned in fluff, so this is naother case where artwork gets abstracted. When it comes ot 'artwork' guns, I figure they all fire HEAt/HE/etc type shells rather than KE-shells as a rule, so the large muzzles, short barrels and even lack of muzzle brake don't matter. Hell, those barrels make me think of Sheridan tanks so I sometimes figure they might be designed for rocket-assisted or gun launched missiles. Again 'abstraction' works wonders here.
I suppose so. Also if people felt like spending the money, no reason you can't have tungsten rebar in your 12,000psi concrete that I can think of which would already absurdly reduce the effectiveness of a modern sabot. If the average bunker is like Battery Torbert with the roof of a U-boat pen, jacked outside with foot thick face hardened armor and inside with two foot thick homogeneous armor buried halfway into the world trade center disaster site after it was covered in sand, you might be needing some rather serious guns to cope with that. As it is, the siege of vraks anyway, doesn't seem to give any real detail on stuff like this.
I doubt the Vraks authors even thought of that. Honestly I dont think they gave much thought to the writing (nor do codex authors either) at least not the way the RPG and novel authors do, but that kind of makes sense since they would be focused on the game first. I suspect that the 'story comes second or later' mentality in the Imperial Armour books explains alot of the problems, inconsistencies, and stupdiity. It really does read like it wasn't given much actual thought in most details, and plot and character development exist only as far as needed for the game side of things.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Alkaloid »

I think the models have something that is meant to be a muzzle brake on them, the muzzle is vented anyway. It isn't very clear though.
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Re: Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Connor MacLeod wrote: Some sources mention spaced and/or reactive armour for tanks and even composites (although usualyl for more high end tanks). Most of the basic Russes (at least by Codex standards) seem to rely on bare metals (albeit magic metal. I guess 'modern' seeming composites would be too high tech for the 'theme')
You can make bare metal into better armor by making it perforated to cut down weight, and with a reduction in protection but a net gain in protection to weight ratio. Angled holes are drilled through the plate, with each hole being smaller than the diameter of enemy threat projectiles so they always face some kind of resistance, and off center resistance which wants to shear apart the nose of an incoming round.
Yeah that sounds like the scale of 40K construction: thick, thick walls for fortifications like that (esp. authors with a siege warfare fetish.) I'd guess thats WW2 era fortification?
Like I said, built 1894-1900. Had three 12in disappearing guns in the open on the roof firing over all that protection. It was meant to withstand near unlimited very close range battering from enemy battleship guns. Other US heavy batteries had similar scales of protection, but generally with a large bulwark of earth covered sand, rather than a second concrete wall. WW2 US heavy batteries were much different casemates.
http://fortwiki.com/images/7/77/Fort_Mi ... 8_Plan.jpg

I figure 120mm guns are probably ETC guns, maybe with some sort of exotic/magic propellant (If magic metals, why not magic gunpowder?). ETC seems like something that would work for 40K guns. Some might even manage pure electrothermal (some weapons mention using a laser to vaporize propellant for propulsion in some way, which sounds like Pure ET to me.)
That would be if it were the case. You can do a lot of things with propellant though if you can crack various problems we have now, like binary liquid propellents that would greatly reduce required storage space and firing chamber size.
I will admit a speculative part of me wonders how over the top 140-152mm ETC guns would be.
Being electro thermal tells us nothing about how powerful it would actually be. We can make tank guns that fire over 2,000m/s if we wanted right now, but its pointless because the barrels would be eaten away too quickly and the projectiles wouldn't function as we intend.

I think) RAmjet tank ammo concept was supposed to be the 'next step' alongside liquid propellant. One source mentioned an unverified 1400m/s for the concept, but not much data existed. Same with teh travelling charge stuff I've been interested in (cuz of bolters mainly) but again not much data on performance or quite how it works is available.
Ramjet or scramjet assisted shells are more of the 'fantasy weapon' step then the next step. They'd work great on paper thin on the details, in reality airflow issues might prevent it from ever working. Also if you go fast enough the shell is going to become very hot even in a few seconds of flight to target. You also get a nagging problem of how well the ramjet could function on planets with varying atmosphere conditions, which means even if such shells exist they probably aren't the primary ammunition. They make more sense in any case for sustaining velocity, rather than increasing velocity, as they will add a large amount of drag and have motors that can only burn for seconds.

I've heard of FOoB, don't think I heard of double recoil though.
It was only ever used on a few heavy artillery pieces that I can think of, including the mighty 280mm Atomic Cannon. The jist of it is you have normal recoil cylinders on the gun, and the cradle which holds the gun and recoil cylinders then recoils itself across the top of the carriage retarded by a second set of pistons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... MJo#t=283s
and I considered a longer recoil stroke for some things but that runs into the same problems as the lack of muzzle brakes - the size of the 'artwork' turret is ludicrously tiny and creates a ton of problems.
Well, stronger material would help let you just reduce the stroke and accept the force.
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