Empire and Imperium (Asimov/40k)

[Lord Zentei]

"You may worship as you please as long as you pledge yourselves to the Greater Good".

If it works for the Tau...

It doesn't work for them. They have one planet, possibly a few, of gue'vesa, despite having preached at all the worlds around, even those guys had to be left behind by the Democles Gulf crusade before defecting. It's not that successful. Certainly the fact that they're humans is helpful, but they're not going to defect enmasse until they've been occupied, and that's going to require blood unless you've got culture level ground abilities.

The Tau have expanded greatly compared with the scale of their resources. Resources which are vastly less than those of the Empire.

Given the disparity in FTL and firepower, even the local warlords have more power than the IoM.

Numbers please. Are you aware that now, 40K's gotten so wanked that even a space marine strike cruiser can blast a planet apart entirely(DoW:A)? As I understand it, support for Foundationverse planet-destruction is often dismissed as hyperbole in debate against SW.

Ridiculous. Planet destroying capability was an outrageous rarity in the canon up until the CPK and the Blackstone fortresses. Making a strike cruiser into a planet destroyer is not consistent with the rest of the canon.

Hence my point that the situation would end up as several Foundationverse mini empires across the MW. As for their ability to figure out that "psykers, mutants = bad"... some of those empires may well be at risk at become Chaotic, no doubt.

And if they've killed the Emperor, which would be something most invading forces would do (certainly trying to occupy Terra, rather than blast it, would be painful) then every psyker is going to be a serious threat of unleashing demonic hordes.

"If", yes. Depends on how fast they figure shit out.

[NecronLord]

In your own words. Attempting. If it was working, there'd be little to be feared from chaos. Because if it ain't peoples faith that protects them then what does?.

The Emperor himself does have an effect, in fighting the chaos gods. Because their faith is focussed on him, this may supercharge him, or he may just be that uber. But certainly faith in say, Jesus, won't help resist the chaos gods if you're a psyker. Most psykers need to be 'soul bound' to the emperor in order to not become a planet-eating monster.

Moreover, people in IOM will do as they are told by their superiors.

Most often, they'll take their superiors in the Ecclesiarchy over their civil superiors. There have been various examples of members of the Ecclesiarchy deposing those who fail to keep the faith, the most obvious being Vandire.

[NecronLord]

The Tau have expanded greatly compared with the scale of their resources.

Because the 13th Black Crusade distracted all the Imperium's navy.

Resources which are vastly less than those of the Empire.

Agreed

Ridiculous. Planet destroying capability was an outrageous rarity in the canon up until the CPK and the Blackstone fortresses. Making a strike cruiser into a planet destroyer is not consistent with the rest of the canon.

Irrelevant. Newer 40K canon has always trumped older, yes, it is rediculous, but until something newer's published that discounts that as an exception or contradicts it, it stands. Please present your numbers on Foundationverse Empire firepower.

[Lord Zentei]

Moreover, people in IOM will do as they are told by their superiors.

Most often, they'll take their superiors in the Ecclesiarchy over their civil superiors. There have been various examples of members of the Ecclesiarchy deposing those who fail to keep the faith, the most obvious being Vandire.

Yet apostate cardinals exist. There is nothing to bar the Empire setting up a rival Ecclasiarchy under their own control.

[NecronLord]

Yet apostate cardinals exist. There is nothing to bar the Empire setting up a rival Ecclasiarchy under their own control.

All of which requires occupation, anyway. They will find it difficult to just persuade many planets into switching.

Now, your firepower and FTL numbers please?

[Jalinth]

Given the disparity in FTL and firepower, even the local warlords have more power than the IoM. Hence my point that the situation would end up as several Foundationverse mini empires across the MW. As for their ability to figure out that "psykers, mutants = bad"... some of those empires may well be at risk at become Chaotic, no doubt.

Remember that the local warlords retrogressed enough within a century that they no longer even had nuclear power (first foundation book). The problem with the timing is that the Empire was coming close to dissolving without any outside influences. So it possess incredibly weak internal superstructures that would be hard pressed to handle a full scale war.

More generally, the Empire does not possess the ability to replace losses with equivalent ships -the Bel Riose sage mentioned that the "new" ships were definitely second rate. They have a difficult time even repairing damage based on the lack of knowledge of their nuc men. So without a knock-out blow, mere attrition would eventually whittle away the Imperial fleet into nothing.

[Gunhead]

Well, I suppose I have to take into consideration that I'd know where to stab so it hurts, and the foundation empire propably would not. It's not like the ecclesiarchy is free from internal strife and power mongering. I do believe this is the sweet spot chaos likes to gun for, when it can.

You need a high ranker in the religious hierarchy, make him your bitch, then get him to declare all that do not follow his(your) teachings heretics.
I think this tactic has been employed by both chaos minions and the nids.

Setting this up requires time and planning, and is no means perfect, but I don't think anyone can really argue the faith base in the empire is all that solid.

-Gunhead

[Jalinth]

Well, I suppose I have to take into consideration that I'd know where to stab so it hurts, and the foundation empire propably would not. It's not like the ecclesiarchy is free from internal strife and power mongering. I do believe this is the sweet spot chaos likes to gun for, when it can.

You have internal strife vs a rotted tree - you can deal with one, but not the other.

[Lost Soal]

There are Holy Worlds, Shrine Worlds, Holy cities and in some cases whole clusters with religious significance scattered throughout the Imperium. You also have thousands to millions of ordinary people travelling to these places and engaging in Pilgramage's to these places completely unforced by the Ecclasiarchy. Many of these places cost money simply to enter, yet they continue to come for reasons of faith and to be blessed. In the case of the Sabbat World's, there was Pilgrimage's going on during the Crusade itself.

I think its safe to say the Imperial Religion holds strong.

[white_rabbit]

On the subject of people in hive worlds finding the idea of a Chaos marine crazy, the Worlds of the Imperium spread in the rulebook indicates that the vast majority of the Imperiums population is crammed into Hiveworlds.

Because the 13th Black Crusade distracted all the Imperium's navy.

And the Tau are "still" operating on the fringes of the Imperium, it isn't like they are in Seg Solar!

[Lord Zentei]

I think its safe to say the Imperial Religion holds strong.

And that word gets around.

The Tau have expanded greatly compared with the scale of their resources.

Because the 13th Black Crusade distracted all the Imperium's navy.

They had made advances before then. The Imperiums troubles are large scale and can just as easily be exploited by the Empire.

Ridiculous. Planet destroying capability was an outrageous rarity in the canon up until the CPK and the Blackstone fortresses. Making a strike cruiser into a planet destroyer is not consistent with the rest of the canon.

Irrelevant. Newer 40K canon has always trumped older, yes, it is rediculous, but until something newer's published that discounts that as an exception or contradicts it, it stands.

Good grief. You are actually taking that screencap as a given. If massively retarded anomalies of this kind are to trump decades of accumulated canon evidence, even including evidence published within the current edition of the game, this thread is meaningless.

Please present your numbers on Foundationverse Empire firepower.

If you reject the anecdotes referenced in the series as hyperbole, that is not possible, making the thread even more meaningless.

[Murazor]

Roughly about 90 years before the Foundation is created from my memory (38 years before Seldon was born and I think he was around 60 or so when he initially set-up the Foundation and exiled). Likely before the reign of Cleon I.

More like 120 years ("The Psychohistorians" happens in the year 12067).

The Empire is screwed. It can't even repair much of the existing equipment based on what is mentioned in the Foundation books, and the Empire is very unstable - coups and attempted coups are common place. It has very limited ability to replace ships, and even these are substandard.

The inability to repair equipment is first mentioned for the barbarian warrior kingdoms in "The Encyclopedists" (12117), but that is more the result of the technicians and scientists leaving the Rim altogether. They left behind a lot of equipment that was in perfect working condition when the Foundation reactivated it almost thirty years later. The Empire didn't suffer that problem until two centuries later, when the technicians started to degenerate in a vaguely Adeptus Mechanicus fashion. Also, Daneel can control the political scene (even avoid the Fall if he truly wants) and in this scenario he has every reason to do so.

[Murazor]

And betray the God Emperor's holy empire? That's a big step for a lot of people. And there will be... trouble, if they destroy the Emperor.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but the Emperor ascending to full Warp Godhood will be the beginning of his last battle with the Chaos Gods, where he has at best even odds of surviving.

Now, for a funny idea, would it be possible for Daneel to strike some kind of deal with the God Emperor? Both of them have (IIRC) roughly similar goals and Daneel has enough influence to create a mellowed version of the Imperial Church. I think that a quintillion extra worshippers would give the God Emperor a good boost against the Chaos Gods and the C'tan.

The Foundationverse empire isn't exactly stable. It is, at this time, near collapse, even without an external threat. And we have no idea how it would handle the mutations, or psykers, for example.

It was an engineered collapse. Daneel allowed the problems to exacerbate, thus creating the root of the problem. Then he started an experiment that resulted in the apparition of Seldon's mathematical genius to develop psychohistory and control the effects of the Fall. He was preparing the stage for Trevize's choice. Daneel wanted Gaia, but he needed a human to choose it out of his own free will, so he guided that free will. Daneel has the means to mind control most of the galactic population. He can halt the Fall for as long as he needs.

Regarding mutations, they are not completely unknown:

Randu leaned a heavy hand upon the heel of his palm and said, sadly, "I'm afraid we are cast for the same role that the onetime warlord of Kalgan played. The Mule is a mutant!"
There was a momentary qualm; a faint impression of quickened heartbeats. Randu might easily have imagined it.
When Mangin spoke, the evenness of his voice was unchanged, "How do you know?"
"Only because my nephew says so, but he was on Kalgan.
"What kind of a mutant? There are all kinds, you know."
Randu forced the rising impatience down, "All kinds of mutants, yes, Mangin. All kinds! But only one kind of Mule. What kind of a mutant would start as an unknown, assemble an army, establish, they say, a five-mile asteroid as original base, capture a planet, then a system, then a region – and then attack the Foundation, and defeat them at Horleggor. And all in two or three years!"

From Foundation and Empire/The Mule, Conference (16).

"It's been estimated that several million mutants are born in the Galaxy every day. Of the several million, all but one or two percent can be detected only by means of microscopes and chemistry. Of the one or two percent macromutants, that is, those with mutations detectable to the naked eye or naked mind, all but one or two percent are freaks, fit for the amusement centers, the laboratories, and death. Of the few macromutants whose differences are to the good, almost all are harmless curiosities, unusual in some single respect, normal – and often subnormal – in most others. You see that, Randu?"

From Foundation and Empire/The Mule, Start of the Search (19).

Of course, it is unlikely that any of this compares with the kind of crap Chaos is able to generate. About psykers, in Foundation and Chaos, a part of the Imperial government deals with human mentalists with the business end of sniper rifles, while the rest just ignore them for as long as they mind their own business.

[Murazor]

It doesn't work for them. They have one planet, possibly a few, of gue'vesa, despite having preached at all the worlds around, even those guys had to be left behind by the Democles Gulf crusade before defecting. It's not that successful. Certainly the fact that they're humans is helpful, but they're not going to defect enmasse until they've been occupied, and that's going to require blood unless you've got culture level ground abilities.

The Galactic Empire has blood. Usually, it wouldn't have the stomach for it, but it outnumbers the Imperium of Man by at least two orders of magnitude.

Q. You are sure?
A. Consider that Trantor has a population of over forty billions. Consider further that the trend leading to ruin does not belong to Trantor alone but to the Empire as a whole and the Empire contains nearly a quintillion human beings.

From Foundation/The Psychohistorians (6).

The statements comes from Seldon himself and it is not disputed. If it comes down to total war, it is likely that the Galactic Empire can field enough soldiers to outnumber the Imperium's total population. More figures (firepower, FTL, industry) coming ASAP.

[Murazor]

FLEET NUMBERS.

First and foremost, the Trantorian spacefleet is more or less a glorified police force that is only used to keep unruly planets in line. Although it is by a long shot the largest fleet in the galaxy, there is some evidence suggesting that individual planets in the Empire have their own armed forces.

"And now Military Governor of a border system and still young. Capable man, Brodrig!"
[...]
"Reinforcements!" The Emperor's eyes narrowed with wonder. "What force has he?"
"Ten ships of the line, sire, with a full complement of auxiliary vessels. Two of the ships are equipped with motors salvaged from the old Grand Fleet, and one has a battery of power artillery from the same source. The other ships are new ones of the last fifty years, but are serviceable, nevertheless."

From Foundation and Empire/The General, The Emperor (4).

Siwenna was a relatively unimportant system, so Riose's fleet was nothing exceptional. Using this, the number of "ships-of-the-line" in the Imperial Starfleet would be between tens or hundreds of millions (if Riose was the military governor of just a single system) and tens or hundreds of thousands (if Riose was the military governor of the Siwennan province). The size of a province can be calculated using Onum Barr's statements in Foundation to be around 1000 planets. Riose can't be a sector governor, because Siwenna was not the capital of the Normanic Sector at this point anymore.

The connections with the Outer Worlds, from which Trantor obtained the resources it required, depended upon its thousand spaceports, its ten thousand warships, its hundred thousand merchant ships, its million space freighters.

From Foundation's Edge, Speaker (5).

[NecronLord]

Good grief. You are actually taking that screencap as a given.

Screencap? I'm talking about a novel's description of a space marine strike cruiser blasting a planet to bits. Yes, it's hideous wank, but it is the most recent stuff published. It trumps, just like the 'squats don't exist any more' stance trumped years of squat stuff. In fact, as I recall, the Sabbatt worlds book has an Imperium of Man fleet blasting a planet apart so violently that its debris is scattered noticeably over interstellar distances within ten years. That's Death Star stuff there.

If massively retarded anomalies of this kind are to trump decades of accumulated canon evidence, even including evidence published within the current edition of the game, this thread is meaningless.

If you reject the anecdotes referenced in the series as hyperbole, that is not possible, making the thread even more meaningless.

So, you have no evidence for huuge empire firepower, beyond the level of Vorlon Planet Killer "It's not there any more ... the planet" stuff?

[Murazor]

INDUSTRY.

There are two ways to calculate the industrial power of the Galactic Empire. Both provide highly impressive results:

-Anacreontian militarization.

The battlecruiser Wienis had half the volume of the Anacreontian fleet. That fleet was more or less built from scratch in the roughly thirty years that followed the emancipation of Anacreon from the Empire. Note that this was not wartime production and that the Foundation hadn't yet completely rebuilt the Imperial energy production network.

The Wienis was two miles in length. Although we don't know anything about its volume (other than all descriptions of Imperial warships suggesting that they are massive and colossal), I have used the volume of eight Imperial Star Destroyers (ISD), which should be an adequate benchmark within an order of magnitude in either direction.

9E7 m^3 * 8 = 7.2E8 m^3
7.2E8 m^3 * 2 = 1.44E9 m^3 (estimated production over thirty years)
1.44E9 m^3 / 30 = 4.8E7 m^3 (estimated yearly production)

Now, Anacreon was just a small fraction of the Galactic Empire.

Following closely the boundaries of the old Prefect of Anacreon, it embraced twenty-five stellar systems, six of which included more than one inhabited world. The population of nineteen billion, though still far less than it had been in the Empire's heyday was rising rapidly with the increasing scientific development fostered by the Foundation.

From Foundation/The Mayors (6).

Using the Anacreontian figures for the Empire in a per planet and per capita basis we get that:

Estimated Galactic Empire production (per planet): 4.8E7 m^3 * 800,000 (Anacreon is estimated to have ~30 planets) = 3.84E13 m^3 (~425,000 ISD sized warships a year).
Estimated Galactic Empire production (per capita): 4.8E7 m^3 * 5.25E7 (Galactic population/Anacreontian population) = 2.52E15 m^3 (~2,800,000 ISD sized warships a year).

-Trantor's deconstruction:

After the Great Sack, one thing that kept Trantor going was its enormous supply of metal. It was a great mine, supplying half a hundred worlds with cheap alloy steel, aluminum, titanium, copper, magnesium - returning, in this way, what it had collected over thousands of years; depleting its supplies at a rate hundreds of times faster than the original rate of accumulation.
There were still enormous metal supplies available, but they were underground and harder to obtain. The Hamish farmers (who never called themselves "Trantorians," a term they considered ill-omened and which the Second Foundationers therefore reserved for themselves) had grown reluctant to deal with the metal any further. Superstition, undoubtedly.
Foolish of them. The metal that remained underground might well be poisoning the soil and further lowering its fertility. And yet, on the other hand, the population was thinly spread and the land supported them. And there were some sales of metal, always.

From Foundation's Edge.

The Great Sack happened in the 260-270 of the Foundational Era. By the time of the passage (498), all metal had been removed from the surface of the planet. The volume of Trantor's cityscape is around 2E8 km^3. Supposing that only half of it was removed (vast underground reserves), we have 1E8 km^3 removed over less than two and a half centuries. This means that roughly 4E5 km^3 were removed every year, a fifth of the volume of the first Death Star. And this staggering amount of material was consumed by the industry of only half a hundred worlds (less than a 0,001% of the Milky Way), after the collapse of the Imperial economy.

[Murazor]

IIRC, those Exterminatus Arrays are supposed to be technobbable weapons, because otherwise the recoil would just destroy the warship. For those interested, something the size of the moon firing a 1E32 watts beam would have to compensate ~4 m/s^2. Unless there is something I have missed, Imperium's warships aren't supposed to mass nearly as much.

[NecronLord]

IIRC, those Exterminatus Arrays are supposed to be technobbable weapons, because otherwise the recoil would just destroy the warship. For those interested, something the size of the moon firing a 1E32 watts beam would have to compensate ~4 m/s^2. Unless there is something I have missed, Imperium's warships aren't supposed to mass nearly as much.

Please rephrase, you just gave a unit of measurement pertaining to change in velocity, not mass.

[Murazor]

Please rephrase, you just gave a unit of measurement pertaining to change in velocity, not mass.

Figures for Imperial (SW) power generation using acceleration figures have been calculated with the formula P = F (m*a) * c (check Power technologies in the Technical commentaries). The moon weighs roughly 7E22 kg and c is 3E8 m/s^2, the power needed to shatter an Earth-like planet was 1E32 watts. If such a beam was fired from the Moon, it would be accelerated in the opposite direction at 4 m/s^2. Are Imperium warships supposed to weigh significative fractions of the Moon's mass?

[NecronLord]

Given that some of them have neutronium prows hundreds of meters wide*. Yes, you can argue up all sorts of absurd mass figures for them. Anyway, could you please present me with quotes for the firepower of Empire ships?

Because honestly, if their world-shattering is hyperbole, and nuclear power is such a big issue, I think it's the Imperium of Man who're going to have the massive and overwhelming firepower advantage.

* Assuming 100m * 100m * 10m (it's all depenant on how we scale the ships, which is a serious bugbear for 40K analysis, that should be around 4e22 Kg, over half the mass of the moon.

[Lord Zentei]

Given that some of them have neutronium prows hundreds of meters wide*. Yes, you can argue up all sorts of absurd mass figures for them. Anyway, could you please present me with quotes for the firepower of Empire ships?

Because honestly, if their world-shattering is hyperbole, and nuclear power is such a big issue, I think it's the Imperium of Man who're going to have the massive and overwhelming firepower advantage.

If the IoM world shattering is canon, that is quite possibly the case. I'm withdrawing my argument.

(I'd point out though, that the armour cannot be pure neutronium (as it is a liquid)).

[NecronLord]

(I'd point out though, that the armour cannot be pure neutronium (as it is a liquid)).

Actually, it's more liquidlike, rather than being a true liquid, but I know. That's why I always say that anything using neutronium in Scifi, unless it's Niven or the likes, is absurd. But yeah, I was using the neutron density, assuming that it's kept in shape by some kind of tech-magic.

[Lord Zentei]

(I'd point out though, that the armour cannot be pure neutronium (as it is a liquid)).

Actually, it's more liquidlike, rather than being a true liquid, but I know. That's why I always say that anything using neutronium in Scifi, unless it's Niven or the likes, is absurd. But yeah, I was using the neutron density, assuming that it's kept in shape by some kind of tech-magic.

There is often a mention of "adamantium" which might imply that it is held in some kind of solid lattice (or more likely, the writers haven't a clue as to what they are writing, but that's another story..).

Anyway: on the withdrawn argument, unfortunately, I don't have my books anymore, so I can't point to any specific quotes, hence my withdrawal.

Had the Empire planet shattering been valid, that would point to 5e16 Mt, whereas descriptions in the SM codex imply BDZ level firepower for the Battlebarge (to wit: "capable of razing an entire planet to a barren lifeless wasteland" - actually, this is less than the full 3x ISD type BDZ which can melt the crust) or around 1e10 Mt from the Planet Killers page on the main site, hence my earlier assessment.

[NecronLord]

There is often a mention of "adamantium" which might imply that it is held in some kind of solid lattice (or more likely, the writers haven't a clue as to what they are writing, but that's another story..).

The adamantium, whatever it is, seems to be the standard. Proper neutronium components are very rare, stuff from the Dark Age of Tech, really.

Had the Empire planet shattering been valid, that would point to 5e16 Mt, whereas descriptions in the SM codex imply BDZ level firepower for the Battlebarge (to wit: "capable of razing an entire planet to a barren lifeless wasteland" - actually, this is less than the full 3x ISD type BDZ which can melt the crust) or around 1e10 Mt from the Planet Killers page on the main site, hence my earlier assessment.

40K has this problem of new writers seeming to want to have their stuff more 'epic' than old writers. Hence absurdities like planet shattering barrages (Abaddon's thinking he looks really stupid now) from fleets or even individual ships, or space marines jumping out of low flying planes without 'chutes, and dusting themselves off after hitting the ground.