Heavy Gear vs Battletech.

[TheMuffinKing]

A little off topic, but in my opinion heavy gears just look much cooler and more effective than battlemechs.
Don't heavy gears have a signifigantly smaller logistical base?

[Hotfoot]

The Heavy Gear Universe consists of Roughly a dozen star systems, which compared to the massive sphere of Battletech, well, yeah, it's dwarfed.

[TheMuffinKing]

The Heavy Gear Universe consists of Roughly a dozen star systems, which compared to the massive sphere of Battletech, well, yeah, it's dwarfed.

I was originally referring to logistics on a per mech vs per gear basis but this is good info too, thanks.

Does heavy gear have space combat or dedicated military spacecraft?

[Hotfoot]

I was originally referring to logistics on a per mech vs per gear basis but this is good info too, thanks.

Yeah, that's true as well. Needless to say, really. Gears run on internal combustion engines and are deployed in (generally) far greater numbers than mechs. Terra Nova probably has as many Gears as, say, House Davion has 'Mechs. That's pulled out of my ass, though.

Does heavy gear have space combat or dedicated military spacecraft?

Yes to both. However, space combat in Heavy Gear is decidedly swift and brutal. Whoever gets the best targeting info first tends to win, as spaceships just toss drones and missiles at each other, quite often of the nuclear variety. At the time of the War of the Alliance, Terra Nova Warships were almost nonexistant, though with the Colony Wars in action, things have been stepped up.

[Typhonis 1]

I think the aircraft book is Tactical Air Support. This is for both 1srt and 2nd edition games. Artillery is fouind in Tactical Field Support.

Note aircraft in combat roles are rare due to the fact that heavy energy weapons are capable of blowing them out of the sky.

[Hotfoot]

Actually, on Terra Nova their deployment is "rare" more due to vicious storm and wind conditions than to anti-air emplacements.

Of course, by rare, it just means "slightly lower than one would expect on earth".

[kaikatsu]

The biggest problem I can see in trying to determine what BattleTech armour can stand up against is that under the old FASA rules (and Mechwarrior Computer Game rules) the armour basically works like hit points instead of damage reduction. Even an AC-2 cannon will wear a mech down -- moreso if it's a paired rotary version. (Man those are so much fun in the games...)

Anyway, does anyone know how the game mechanics for the WizKids version of MechWarrior Dark Age work? I don't know the new rules.

I do know for a fact that moderate artillery fire has been known to render Battlemechs almost useless by affecting the terrain. (I don't have the books on me but I can provide refs as needed.)

I also know that warships in BattleTech regularly use antistarship torps, many of which can kill in a small number of hits, and have (somewhat limited) point defense -- so the idea that a BattleTech warships cannot handle a slew of nuclear arms is perhaps not entirely true. (I do not have ranges or yields, so I'm party speculating.)

[Typhonis 1]

Its strategic bombing that has gone out of style I believe. They couldn`t armor the aircraft enough to protect them from the laser arrays around cities. If they could detect it they could kill it basically.


The gears by the way don`t skate. Thety have a wheeled or halftrack motive sytem built into the feet of said gear for rapid transit.

[weemadando]

OK...

So - BTech is awesome. Except its not because of ECM and all manner of other "problems".

Problems which are easily countered in the HG verse.

HG has ECCM, multiple redundant sensor and targeting systems.

AND LETS NOT FORGET A FAR LONGER NATIVE RANGE on weapons.

Unless of course, Nephytys wants to bitch and whine about how an artillery shell somehow has its ranged massively axed by the strength of ECM.

[Typhonis 1]

The Terra Novans are also experimenting with antimatter weapons and...Terra Nova is not a battlemech friendly planet anyway.

[Darwin]

Its strategic bombing that has gone out of style I believe. They couldn`t armor the aircraft enough to protect them from the laser arrays around cities. If they could detect it they could kill it basically.

AA lasers > bombers.

Aircraft in HG have a limited role, simply because they're so very vulnerable to advanced AA lasers (Which mind you, nearly every piece of Southern armor has in abundance). if it isn't VTOL and capable of popup attacks, it doesn't belong anywhere near ground forces. Also the weather sucks.

[Hotfoot]

Aircraft in HG have a limited role, simply because they're so very vulnerable to advanced AA lasers (Which mind you, nearly every piece of Southern armor has in abundance).

Don't recall Southern Armor having an overabundance of AA Lasers on their armor. I don't deny that city-state defenses are bad-ass, I just don't recall them on Southern stuff. Energy weapons on mobile units is pretty much the territory of CEF, as I recall.

That said, I'd just like to go back to the weapon ranges for a moment. The "basic" weapon used by gears is the Light Autocannon, which is somewhere between 20-30mm (I think it's 25, just can't be sure). It's base (short) range in the game is 100m, with a maximum effective range of 800m, and an average effective range of about 400m. As the guns get bigger, the ranges go up (instead of down, as is the trend in BT), meaning that the heavier firepower is much more likely to hit BEFORE the lighter firepower. Consider the Aller Main Battle Tank, primary weapon being a Railgun with a base (short) range of 500m, maximum effective range being 4,000m (4km), and the average effective range being roughly 2,000 km. Then, of course, there's Artillery and Ortillery, with much greater ranges than that.

To Nephtys:

Now, I don't know about all this new Wizkids Battletech stuff, but they kind of lost me when they decided to make a game where you would randomly get LUMBERJACKS to field against supposed war machines.

However, in pretty much every BT book I've ever read (Classic BT), they stick quite closely to the engagement ranges listed in the main rules. I don't know where you're getting the ECM stuff, I've only seen ECM listed in combat when specific mechs with ECM suites make it on the field. Maybe you're co-opting the Gundam Principle with whatever the hell it is they use to keep ranges down, I don't know. In any case, I've never heard it applied to Battletech on such a massive scale. As has been pointed out previously, it still doesn't explain why ranges are less than what a human can hit without assistance. These are MASSIVE targets, and honestly not that much more manueverable than modern vehicles, something they would have to be in order to effectively evade fire. Don't know about you, but I've regularly gone faster than 120kph in my minivan, and that's the upper limit of speed for most any front-line battlemech (I'm not counting scouts like the Flea or the Firemoth here, that'd be just silly).

Now, as far as weapons are concerned, there's all manner of calculations that have been done to try and help determine that. Problem is, FASA never bothered with it much. The writers tended not to care either, for the most part. There's the issue of the magically decreasing range for larger caliber weapons, the recoil concerns, etc. It's a long list. However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the machineguns in BT are roughly equivilant to the Light Autocannons in HG. Since BT armor has consistantly been described as ablative in nature by all the tech manuals I've seen, it stands to reason that enough of these MG/autocannons can strip a mech down to its barest bones given enough shots. The catch is, the Gears would be able to start firing at maximum range with much greater effectiveness than a mech can. Only the longest-ranged weapons on a mech could hope to open fire at roughly the same time (ER Lasers, ER PPCs, Gauss Rifles, AC/2's, Long Toms, Clan LRMs). This is also made worse by establishing that one of the shortest-ranged weapons in Heavy Gear is comparable in range to the longest ranged weapons in Battletech. The prognosis does not look good.

Meanwhile, armor in Heavy Gear is not largely ablative, meaning that lesser rounds stand virtually no chance of wearing down the armor to the point of destroying the vehicle. A LAC has virtually no chance of penetrating a main battle tank, meaning that low-damage weapon systems from Battletech designed to ablate the armor of a target are more or less worthless against the harder targets of the Heavy Gear world (LRMs, SRMs, Machineguns, lighter autocannons and lasers, etc. vs. light-heavy tanks). Meanwhile, consider that Gears are between Elementals and Protomechs in size (roughly halfway), and don't have the additional concern of tucking a fusion reactor inside of them, making them much stealthier than your standard 'Mech.

Unfortunately for BTech, one has to do a tremendous amount of work to try and get everything to make sense, with conflicting sources and creators that really didn't know what they were doing at the time aside from making a game using giant robots. Heavy Gear gives a considerable amount of thought to the mechanics and attempts to make them as consistant with reality as they can (larger caliber weapons have greater range, ranges are much more realistic, weapons have listed armor penetration values in a specific sort of steel, etc.

Ah, speaking of which, I have found the calculations for Heavy Gear weapons penetration in armor-grade steel under optimal conditions:

DM^2 = average thickness of armor grade steel penetrated under "optimal" conditions.

So here are some common weapons in the HG universe, translated:

LAC DM = 8
8^2 = 64mm

MAC DM = 10
10^2 = 100mm

Light Rocket Pack DM = 12
12^2 = 144mm

Light Bazooka DM = 15
15^2 = 225mm

Medium Rocket Pack DM = 18
18^2 = 324mm

Heavy Rocket Pack DM = 20
20^2 = 400mm

Anti-Tank Missile DM = 25
25^2 = 625mm

MBT Heavy Field Gun DM = 28
28^2 = 784mm

Aller MBT Railgun DM = 35
35^2 = 1,225mm

Note that these are approximate numbers, but they give a decent idea of the level of technology in Heavy Gear is. Now, on the same note, the armor values of the Gears and Tanks translates over similarly, with the value being the "average" armor strength over the entire vehicle. A standard Gear (Hunter/Jager) has 15^2 = 225mm of armor average over the vehicle. Take in mind, however, that your standard LAC can damage and even destroy a gear, but it's a good place to start calculations.

An Aller MBT has Armor 40 base, with an additional reinforcement against lasers and explosives, plus general reinforcement in the front arc. This means if shot at by lasers or missiles in the front arc, its effective armor strength is 55^2 = 3025mm, otherwise, it is 40^2 = 1600mm or 50^2 = 2500mm

[PainRack]

You know, I've actually read a fair number of BT books, and I don't recall engagements being fought from any greater range than game mechanics would imply.

Operation Star Lord. 500m for SRMs and increased range of MGs(Game mechanics SRM platoon range is greater than MG)

2. Most Powerful: Heavy Gear - Even the light rifle carried by the lightest of Gears outranges anything fielded by the Battletech side, and can arguable do damage (hell, if a .50 cal machinegun can tear up a BT Mech, the 20mm autocannons Gears use should do a number on them). Add to that the fact that tanks in HG are not gimped like they are in BT, and the battle will be over quite fast.

Machine guns are 20-30mm chain guns, while the 20mm autocannon is the weakest weapon on board.

Now, as far as weapons are concerned, there's all manner of calculations that have been done to try and help determine that. Problem is, FASA never bothered with it much. The writers tended not to care either, for the most part. There's the issue of the magically decreasing range for larger caliber weapons, the recoil concerns, etc.

The recoil is a nonsensical argument. No one here has every shown that mechs can't handle the recoil given. In fact, considering the momentum of battlemechs as well as known buffers, this argument should only exist amongst those ignorant of the Btech universe.

It's a long list. However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the machineguns in BT are roughly equivilant to the Light Autocannons in HG. Since BT armor has consistantly been described as ablative in nature by all the tech manuals I've seen, it stands to reason that enough of these MG/autocannons can strip a mech down to its barest bones given enough shots.

That's not strictly true.

The rotors’ armor protection does prevent accidental damage and keeps them operational even when struck by fire of up to 40mm caliber.

Donar TR 3060

Ferro-fibrous armor added to the frame gives the 'Mech a very bulky appearance. Because flat areas of armor are easily penetrated, as many surfaces as possible are angled in order to deflect blast damage to the 'Mech and thereby reduce stress on the frame during combat.

Phoenix Hawk IIC TR.

There are even absolute quotes about how armour deflects incoming shots, although I can't find the exact entry. Once I do, I will post it in the Btech technical archive thread.

The catch is, the Gears would be able to start firing at maximum range with much greater effectiveness than a mech can. Only the longest-ranged weapons on a mech could hope to open fire at roughly the same time (ER Lasers, ER PPCs, Gauss Rifles, AC/2's, Long Toms, Clan LRMs). This is also made worse by establishing that one of the shortest-ranged weapons in Heavy Gear is comparable in range to the longest ranged weapons in Battletech. The prognosis does not look good.

Only if we assume that Gears armour are just as effective as Btech armour. Unlike Nephyts, I hold to the Btech armour revolutionised combat theory, in that the specialities of Btech armour has generally forced effective range down.

The problems of mech weapons being limited by range can be seen in this quote.

The ScatterGun is a small-caliber machine gun mounted in the bow of the tank in a mini-ball turret, giving the driver an excellent arc of fire. The ScatterGun fires shells at very high velocity, which compensates for its small caliber.

The increased velocity of th is weapon does not result in an increase in range.

Similarly, damage isn't calculated solely by calibre and muzzle velocity.

The Mithras’s turret-mounted Series 2b autocannon allows accurate, sustained fire against targets up to one thousand meters from the vehicle. The system’s advanced autoloader allows the gunner to select a variable rate of fire, and at full speed the 50mm cannon can fire twelve rounds a minute

The Mithras listed weapon is a AC/2, along with that range of a thousand meters. However, as can be clearly seen, its calibre actually OUTGUNS that of a heavier autocannon, say

The Zorya's primary weapon is a 40mm LB-X series autocannon.

The above weapon is classed as an AC/5, yet, its calibre is smaller and its range is also shorter.

If so, why is the 50mm autocannon, with a greater effective range(and in conventional mentality, velocity) deal much less damage than the smaller calibre and shorter range?

Unfortunately for BTech, one has to do a tremendous amount of work to try and get everything to make sense, with conflicting sources and creators that really didn't know what they were doing at the time aside from making a game using giant robots. Heavy Gear gives a considerable amount of thought to the mechanics and attempts to make them as consistant with reality as they can (larger caliber weapons have greater range, ranges are much more realistic, weapons have listed armor penetration values in a specific sort of steel, etc.

There are no conflicting sources. The difference is that the physics of Btech doesn't work. Frankly, no mech physics work, and neither do science fiction in general so this isn't a biggie. The sole contention should be consistency.

What is clear that the reason why people downgrade battletech is because it doesn't fit within reality.

[PainRack]

I don't even know what Heavy Gear is, but if they're equal or superior to WW1 forces then they'll whip Battletech.

Just something to note.

There are multiple quotes about how Battlemechs revolutionised combat, just like the introduction of WW1 tanks. There is a singular quote about how Mechs are superior to late 20th century tanks. There is a singular quote about how special ops infantry are more advanced to infantry just as mecs are as advanced compared to WW1 tanks.(BMR, MWC)

[Hotfoot]

Operation Star Lord. 500m for SRMs and increased range of MGs(Game mechanics SRM platoon range is greater than MG)

You mean Star Lord by Donald J. Phillips? It's the only CBT book I could find that fits the description. However, just keep in mind that if this source has different ranges for weapons than other sources, then the sources are conflicting. This makes it difficult for your later point to hold up, in fact.

Machine guns are 20-30mm chain guns, while the 20mm autocannon is the weakest weapon on board.

Please cite the source for the 20-30mm machine guns. Every source I've ever read on the subject cites them as arrays if .50 caliber machineguns (12.7mm).

The recoil is a nonsensical argument. No one here has every shown that mechs can't handle the recoil given. In fact, considering the momentum of battlemechs as well as known buffers, this argument should only exist amongst those ignorant of the Btech universe.

Ridiculous. I know quite a bit about battletech, but I'm telling you that there is a physical limit to how much recoil the damn things can take before they topple over. Additionally, you have to consider that Battletech combat COMMONLY has the guns firing perpendicular to the direction of travel, which means jack shit for helping compensate for recoil. The torque put on the mech for firing Guass Rifles and autocannons mounted 6-10m above the ground is not trivial, especially if you are going to equate them to modern tank guns in strength.

It's a long list. However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the machineguns in BT are roughly equivilant to the Light Autocannons in HG. Since BT armor has consistantly been described as ablative in nature by all the tech manuals I've seen, it stands to reason that enough of these MG/autocannons can strip a mech down to its barest bones given enough shots.

That's not strictly true.

The rotors’ armor protection does prevent accidental damage and keeps them operational even when struck by fire of up to 40mm caliber.

Donar TR 3060

So you're seriously trying to argue that this particular armor is perfect protection against an AC/5 and down in damage? Bullshit. It says it can keep the rotor operational when hit by a stray shot, maybe two. It says nothing about sustained fire. Given that it is repeatedly stated in Battletech Tech manuals that BT armor ablates when struck, like peeling layers from an onion, there's no reason to assume that suddenly now they've got traditional armor which flawlessly protects against rounds 40mm and lower. Brilliant.

Ferro-fibrous armor added to the frame gives the 'Mech a very bulky appearance. Because flat areas of armor are easily penetrated, as many surfaces as possible are angled in order to deflect blast damage to the 'Mech and thereby reduce stress on the frame during combat.

Phoenix Hawk IIC TR.

There are even absolute quotes about how armour deflects incoming shots, although I can't find the exact entry. Once I do, I will post it in the Btech technical archive thread.

And there are absolute quotes in the tech manuals and core books (not to mention novels) concerning how the armor ablates. There is no other reason the combat model could possibly work as it does if rounds got deflected off constantly, doing less or more damage depending on how "well" they hit. If a shot hits, armor is removed. Call it a game mechanic if you like, it doesn't change the fact that it is how it's handled in the books, fluff, and tech manuals. It's pretty much the ONLY reason why LRMs even work at all.

Only if we assume that Gears armour are just as effective as Btech armour. Unlike Nephyts, I hold to the Btech armour revolutionised combat theory, in that the specialities of Btech armour has generally forced effective range down.

I fail to see how easily ablating armor somehow revolutionized combat theory, and that somehow it made tanks obsolete. Meanwhile, I'd hold that Gear armor is by it's very nature more effective than Battletech armor. I don't know how else I can explain this to you, other than this:

In Heavy Gear, a heavy machinegun will not do any damage whatsoever to a main battle tank. Similarly, a light autocannon will tend to do about jack shit to a Landship. Meanwhile, in Battletech, a Mech can be pecked to death by another mech with twelve machinegun mounts (machineguns, which, by the way, were originally meant to deal with infantry, not Mechs).

The problems of mech weapons being limited by range can be seen in this quote.

The ScatterGun is a small-caliber machine gun mounted in the bow of the tank in a mini-ball turret, giving the driver an excellent arc of fire. The ScatterGun fires shells at very high velocity, which compensates for its small caliber.

The increased velocity of th is weapon does not result in an increase in range.

All you're doing is showing just how stupid the creators of Battletech were. You do realize this, right?

Similarly, damage isn't calculated solely by calibre and muzzle velocity.

The Mithras’s turret-mounted Series 2b autocannon allows accurate, sustained fire against targets up to one thousand meters from the vehicle. The system’s advanced autoloader allows the gunner to select a variable rate of fire, and at full speed the 50mm cannon can fire twelve rounds a minute

The Mithras listed weapon is a AC/2, along with that range of a thousand meters. However, as can be clearly seen, its calibre actually OUTGUNS that of a heavier autocannon, say

The Zorya's primary weapon is a 40mm LB-X series autocannon.

The above weapon is classed as an AC/5, yet, its calibre is smaller and its range is also shorter.

If so, why is the 50mm autocannon, with a greater effective range(and in conventional mentality, velocity) deal much less damage than the smaller calibre and shorter range?

Because the creators of the universe were unforgivable idiotic when it came to physics. Are you trying to argue that somehow Battletech armor is made from some sort of unobtanium which is better penetrated and destroyed by low velocity rounds? Additionally, are you forgetting the simply MASSIVE disparity in size in the OPPOSITE direction when it comes to autocannons? Where the hell are you even quoting from? Every canon source I have ever seen shows AC/2 through AC/20 as smaller to larger in caliber. Fucking hell, just look at the difference between a centurion's autocannon and an Urbanmech's, or a Hunchbacks!

You're seriously falling apart at this point, making less and less sense as you go.

There are no conflicting sources. The difference is that the physics of Btech doesn't work. Frankly, no mech physics work, and neither do science fiction in general so this isn't a biggie. The sole contention should be consistency.

Now you're just being dishonest. You admitted in your first paragraph that there are conflicting sources by quoting a source that has conflicting ranges of weapons from other canonically accepted sources. Your descriptions of autocannnons (you describe AC/2's as BOTH 20mm AND 50mm, citing different sources in order to do so) and machineguns similarly conflict, to say nothing of your nonsense about magically impervious armor.

Now, I've posted calculations straight from Dream Pod 9, the official source on all things Heavy Gear, as to equivilant armor and penetration values. You might want to consider doing the same.

What is clear that the reason why people downgrade battletech is because it doesn't fit within reality.

Most Sci-Fi TRIES to work with reality in some way. Battletech has a decent story and setting, one I've enjoyed myself for many years, and the computer games are loads of fun, but when we objectively look at the system, we have to try and determine some way to rationalize all the things we see, while making as few assumptions as possible. Uber ECM that's never mentioned or described? That's out. Technological backslide that's been plaguing the galaxy for hundreds of years and a key point to the setting? Sounds reasonable, we can chalk up most of the problems to that.

When we look at the projectile weapons, we have to take what little data they give us that doesn't conflict and work out equations for the high end and the low end. Please consider doing that, and then come back to state your case again.

Oh, and don't give me shit about how there are no inconsistances when your entire post is RIFE with them.

[Nephtys]

You're being obtuse. Autocannon ratings don't directly translate to caliber. Some types of low ROF, low velocity 50mm cannon are equivilent to higher ROF, higher velocity 20mm cannon. AC's are 'classes' of cannons in capabilities, and honestly simplified for game mechanics.

Ablative armor model is a game mechanic. Mechs don't topple over when they fire 'impossible' recoil guns sideways, so therefore, they can handle the recoil.

LRMs work because by peppering a target with relatively small warheads, you're more likely to hit an unprotected spot. Think of firing thirty RPGs at a tank, and hitting the turret ring.

Mechs revolutionized combat, because take a look at the Mackie Test. It resisted their gun with an inch thick plate of new armor, then firing back and destroying the Merkava platoon without problems. That's a new production of a modern tank type getting absolutely slaughtered by a prototype mech.

All of your arguments seriously are about the ablative model. Get off of it. Nobody wants to play a game where only one type of weapon is effective.

[Dark Hellion]

Nice nephtys, to bad none of the novels support your claims about Btech power at all. The Gauss Rifle has a clear upper limit built in to both its damage and the recoil, it fires a 112Kg slug at mach 2.2. And based on description from the books, go with the game mechanics based ablative armour, it makes mechs tougher. It is easy to construct even 20ton mechs that can survive gauss hits in game, many descriptions of Gauss rifles in fluff state that one shot cores small-medium mechs.

[Hotfoot]

You're being obtuse. Autocannon ratings don't directly translate to caliber. Some types of low ROF, low velocity 50mm cannon are equivilent to higher ROF, higher velocity 20mm cannon. AC's are 'classes' of cannons in capabilities, and honestly simplified for game mechanics.

Yes, because a weapon with low velocity and a larger projectile operates exactly like a weapon with high velocity and a smaller projectile. The ammunition stores are all roughly similar, and the ballistic arcs are so much alike that it's easy for any targeting computer or human eye to make the necesary adjustments. Seriously now, while some variation may occur, to say that you can have a 50mm cannon be equated to a 20mm cannon borders on ridiculous, due to the inherantly massive differences in the ballistics of each.

Ablative armor model is a game mechanic.

Which is translated DIRECTLY over into the fiction and fluff. You can't just dismiss every bit of game mechanic that doesn't suit you.

Mechs don't topple over when they fire 'impossible' recoil guns sideways, so therefore, they can handle the recoil.

Yes, and this puts physical limits on how much recoil they can actually take. Given that there are no magical unobtanium recoil compensators, this puts a hard limit on the total recoil a mech can realistically take, which gives us an upper limit on how powerful their kinetic weapons can be.

LRMs work because by peppering a target with relatively small warheads, you're more likely to hit an unprotected spot. Think of firing thirty RPGs at a tank, and hitting the turret ring.

And yet until enough armor is stripped away, they don't do a damn thing, in the game, and in the novels. Never in any book I have read, have I ever seen an initial LRM barrage strip away a weapon, arm, or anything else. The only case of total destruction by LRM that I recall offhand was the death of Natasha Kerensky when faced with a disgustingly huge number of missiles that just annihilated her mech in one salvo.

Mechs revolutionized combat, because take a look at the Mackie Test. It resisted their gun with an inch thick plate of new armor, then firing back and destroying the Merkava platoon without problems. That's a new production of a modern tank type getting absolutely slaughtered by a prototype mech.

The Mackie test, as I recall, has been one of the most heated discussions concerning Battletech to date. A few things need to be considered:
1. The tanks in question were, at the time of the test, over four hundred years old. No mention is made of any real restoration or modification, aside from the remote controls
2. This test takes place before the massive techological backslide that leads to the "modern" battletech universe.
3. The test is canonically third-hand information, and must take a back seat to direct observations of the Mechs in combat by logical debating standards.

Remember, it's not enough to find one source to say what you want it to, you have to find several that corroborate each other, and find some way of describing the inconsistancies. The simple fact of the matter is that a 120mm cannon not even scratching a mech's armor is INCONSISTANT WITH THE UNIVERSE when small-warhead LRMs and Machineguns and light autocannons (12.7mm or 30mm, regardless) can strip away even the strongest armor of a battlemech given enough time.

All of your arguments seriously are about the ablative model. Get off of it. Nobody wants to play a game where only one type of weapon is effective.

Only one type of weapon is effective? What the hell? The ablative model of Battletech armor is the only model that makes sense given the information we have been given, and is backed up by numerous sources. You wanting to throw it out because it lets BTech get chewed up as a result doesn't fly.

Meanwhile, I've provided detailed information as to the relative penetration and armor values in the Heavy Gear universe. You'll note that there is a pretty nice collection of different types of weapons there (I left out Energy weapons primarily because I was trying to detail Terra Nova more than CEF, which is the biggest user of energy weapons on the battlefield).

[Nephtys]

Right now, I don't know enough about HG to make a decision. I am however, trying to speak to my knowledge about BT and dispell some of the worst myths.

Yes, because a weapon with low velocity and a larger projectile operates exactly like a weapon with high velocity and a smaller projectile. The ammunition stores are all roughly similar, and the ballistic arcs are so much alike that it's easy for any targeting computer or human eye to make the necesary adjustments. Seriously now, while some variation may occur, to say that you can have a 50mm cannon be equated to a 20mm cannon borders on ridiculous, due to the inherantly massive differences in the ballistics of each.

First. AC class is a game mechanic. Do we really have 'damage ratings' on modern guns? Or range classes for accuracy? Different AC types can perform differently. Perhaps they have higher/lower ROF, to make the difference between 20 and 50mm? Or different targetting systems? The game is an abstraction. Maybe the 50mm is the caliber of the barrel, but the projectile is a Sabot? Etc.

Which is translated DIRECTLY over into the fiction and fluff. You can't just dismiss every bit of game mechanic that doesn't suit you.

Next. Ablative armor is a game mechanic that is again, mentioned primarilly in older text as armor falling off. In some novels (Jade Falcon Trilogy, Endgame), Armor is described as being cracked apart by repeated heavy fire, while lighter shells fall off like rain. I'll get quotes as soon as I can dig those up.

Yes, and this puts physical limits on how much recoil they can actually take. Given that there are no magical unobtanium recoil compensators, this puts a hard limit on the total recoil a mech can realistically take, which gives us an upper limit on how powerful their kinetic weapons can be.

Do you know the weight distribution of a battlemech or the capabilities of the gyro, their firing positions and materials science?

And yet until enough armor is stripped away, they don't do a damn thing, in the game, and in the novels. Never in any book I have read, have I ever seen an initial LRM barrage strip away a weapon, arm, or anything else. The only case of total destruction by LRM that I recall offhand was the death of Natasha Kerensky when faced with a disgustingly huge number of missiles that just annihilated her mech in one salvo.

A stray missile pinged Aidan Pryde's Mad Cat in the last of the Jade Falcon Trilogy, shaking him up quite a bit. In the end of the book where he's getting his Bloodname, one of his LBX submunitions was lucky enough to score a hit on a vulnerable part of the cockpit of a nearly fresh opposing mech, enough to cause it to depressurize in vacuum. These are said hits where mass of fire does enough to hit vulnerable areas. This is represented 'in game mechanics' as the TAC. Through Armor Critical.

The Mackie test, as I recall, has been one of the most heated discussions concerning Battletech to date. A few things need to be considered:
1. The tanks in question were, at the time of the test, over four hundred years old. No mention is made of any real restoration or modification, aside from the remote controls
2. This test takes place before the massive techological backslide that leads to the "modern" battletech universe.
3. The test is canonically third-hand information, and must take a back seat to direct observations of the Mechs in combat by logical debating standards.

Remember, it's not enough to find one source to say what you want it to, you have to find several that corroborate each other, and find some way of describing the inconsistancies. The simple fact of the matter is that a 120mm cannon not even scratching a mech's armor is INCONSISTANT WITH THE UNIVERSE when small-warhead LRMs and Machineguns and light autocannons (12.7mm or 30mm, regardless) can strip away even the strongest armor of a battlemech given enough time.

1. The tanks in question are a modern production of four hundred year old designs. The colonists didn't bring ancient weapons with them. They only brought the design plans and when the era of peace ended, started retooling factories.
2. The Mackie is still far more primative than even the battlemechs durign the loss of tech. It's downright sad compared even to a 3025 Atlas missing half it's systems. It's armor is bulkier and less efficient than 'standard' materials, and it's engine is ridiculously poor.
3. The test was a written account, yes. But it was made in the journal of a sensor scientist overseeing the test itself.

The 120mm tank gun failing to scratch it is odd, but perhaps it WAS damaged in some manner difficult to detect, such as fracturing. Who knows. It wasn't mentioned, but again you go from the written to the game mechanics of 20mm or .50 cal shells killing Mechs... which has not happened in a single book that I've seen. Mechs run through that fire without breaking stride countless times.

Only one type of weapon is effective? What the hell? The ablative model of Battletech armor is the only model that makes sense given the information we have been given, and is backed up by numerous sources. You wanting to throw it out because it lets BTech get chewed up as a result doesn't fly.

You're saying that small caliber ACs shouldn't affect the mechs in-game, like in a realistic situation. Sure. That doesn't make sense realistically, but think in terms of game balance. Do we really want to make a game where only the AC10 and 20 are of any use at all? It's the same reason my fighter in X-Wing Alliance can kill a star destroyer with blasters, given thirty minutes. Gameplay.

Nice nephtys, to bad none of the novels support your claims about Btech power at all. The Gauss Rifle has a clear upper limit built in to both its damage and the recoil, it fires a 112Kg slug at mach 2.2. And based on description from the books, go with the game mechanics based ablative armour, it makes mechs tougher. It is easy to construct even 20ton mechs that can survive gauss hits in game, many descriptions of Gauss rifles in fluff state that one shot cores small-medium mechs.

Wait, wait. Gauss Rifle, sure. It fires a shell of that to that speed. But yeah, you can construct with custom rules a 20 ton mech that can absorb ONE gauss shell to the heavilly armored CENTER TORSO, but um.. that's with the construction rules. Enjoy your unarmed, barely-mobile block of armor...

Take a look at the in-game readouts for most light mechs, and a single hit will cripple practically any of them. I'm not going with one thing or another because it 'makes them tougher'. I'm trying to view things in a way that makes sense. Suspending disbelief and saying 'You know what, this was here because of game mechanics because XYZ doesn't make sense in real life'.

I'm trying to see things logically. And plenty of the newer novels support what I'm saying explicitly. I've never read a single bit about small lasers, machine guns and AC/2's do anything but vaguely irritate a mech.

[Imperial Overlord]

[quote=Hotfoot] Never in any book I have read, have I ever seen an initial LRM barrage strip away a weapon, arm, or anything else. The only case of total destruction by LRM that I recall offhand was the death of Natasha Kerensky when faced with a disgustingly huge number of missiles that just annihilated her mech in one salvo.
[/quote]

That wasn't Kerensky. Kerensky died when she was cooked in her (breached) cockpit by a jumpjet being fired into it. Jaime Wolf and Aiden Pryde both do plenty of destruction with LRMs, although off hand I don't recall a "name" character dying by massed LRM volley.

[Chris OFarrell]

Never in any book I have read, have I ever seen an initial LRM barrage strip away a weapon, arm, or anything else. The only case of total destruction by LRM that I recall offhand was the death of Natasha Kerensky when faced with a disgustingly huge number of missiles that just annihilated her mech in one salvo.

That wasn't Kerensky. Kerensky died when she was cooked in her (breached) cockpit by a jumpjet being fired into it. Jaime Wolf and Aiden Pryde both do plenty of destruction with LRMs, although off hand I don't recall a "name" character dying by massed LRM volley.

He was talking about Ulric. Who died when two full stars of Jade Falcon Omni's configured as missile batteries opened fire based on targeting information Khan Christu was providing. The missile salvo simply disintegrated Ulrics mech and killed most of the rest of his star. Except Vlad who managed to damage Christu before going down.

[Hotfoot]

Right now, I don't know enough about HG to make a decision. I am however, trying to speak to my knowledge about BT and dispell some of the worst myths.

I've given some basic information concerning Heavy Gear in my previous posts.

First. AC class is a game mechanic. Do we really have 'damage ratings' on modern guns? Or range classes for accuracy? Different AC types can perform differently. Perhaps they have higher/lower ROF, to make the difference between 20 and 50mm? Or different targetting systems? The game is an abstraction. Maybe the 50mm is the caliber of the barrel, but the projectile is a Sabot? Etc.

Regardless of how you explain it, there has to be some level of parity inside the class. You can't have two vastly different weapons and call them both AC/2 because they are, well, vastly diffferent. It also just doesn't explain why weapons with better range do less damage, while weapons with lower range do more damage. It doesn't explain it at all. In fact, the damage models seem to flipped between energy and kinetic weapons. Energy weapons should do less damage at long range, because of atmospheric scattering, whereas kinetic weapons don't travel long enough to give a damn about atmospheric resistance to reduce penetration. Very strange indeed.

Next. Ablative armor is a game mechanic that is again, mentioned primarilly in older text as armor falling off. In some novels (Jade Falcon Trilogy, Endgame), Armor is described as being cracked apart by repeated heavy fire, while lighter shells fall off like rain. I'll get quotes as soon as I can dig those up.

Actually, it's described as the armor being sheared off by kinetic fire, melted off by energy fire, and blown off by missile fire. In any case, finding a few outliers that describe things differently doesn't prove your case when you're faced with overwhelming evidence that supports a different conclusion. If you'd like, I could pick up any Stackpole book, even ones describing the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar (about as recent as you get before switching over the Dark Age timeline, which is almost another reality as far as I'm concerned), which depict the model I'm talking about. The fluff in the main rulebook and the tech manuals also tends to agree with me on this, so I'm not understanding why you seem to think a handful of examples to the contrary somehow negates everything else.

Do you know the weight distribution of a battlemech or the capabilities of the gyro, their firing positions and materials science?

Not every detail needs to be known, because of the limits of physics. We know how much the Mech Masses, we know that weapons weighing 0.5-20 tons need to be supported up to three stories above the ground and fired in a stable fashion. Firing positions are null because the vast majority of mech weapons are either built into the torso or the arms. Materials science doesn't mean jack because it won't change the fact that recoil and torque exist and are nontrivial forces. You can't get rid of the recoil of a magnetically accelerated slug by claiming advanced materials science, and even assuming an ideal weight distribution, there ARE STILL PHYSICAL LIMITS. Since there are no magic recoil-absorbing power fields mentioned, we can safely assume they do not exist.

For upper and lower limits, we can look at the Cerberus and the Hollander, which are 80 and 30 tons respectively, IIRC. Cerberus mounts two Gauss Cannons, Hollander mounts one. Cerberus cannons are mounted on the arms, Hollander on the top of the torso.

A stray missile pinged Aidan Pryde's Mad Cat in the last of the Jade Falcon Trilogy, shaking him up quite a bit.

Says nothing about damage done to the mech, but rather jarring the pilot. BFD. Next?

In the end of the book where he's getting his Bloodname, one of his LBX submunitions was lucky enough to score a hit on a vulnerable part of the cockpit of a nearly fresh opposing mech, enough to cause it to depressurize in vacuum. These are said hits where mass of fire does enough to hit vulnerable areas. This is represented 'in game mechanics' as the TAC. Through Armor Critical.

Class of AC? I'd be impressed if it was an AC/2, not so much if it's an AC/20. What was the size of the submunition? What was it's kinetic energy? Was it more or less than that of a Merkava's 120mm main cannon?

1. The tanks in question are a modern production of four hundred year old designs. The colonists didn't bring ancient weapons with them. They only brought the design plans and when the era of peace ended, started retooling factories.

Which means for all we know, they fucked up somewhere in the reconstruction, assuming it's true.

2. The Mackie is still far more primative than even the battlemechs durign the loss of tech. It's downright sad compared even to a 3025 Atlas missing half it's systems. It's armor is bulkier and less efficient than 'standard' materials, and it's engine is ridiculously poor.

So, wait, this magic half-inch of armor is poor and bulky compared to the incredible edible armor of "modern" BTech? This in itself is a massive inconsitancy. Either the results of the test were bullshit, or technology and history have deteriorated more than we'd normally think in the Inner Sphere, because last I checked, even at the best measure, BTech weapons are not massively superior to modern day technology, yet they can blast each other well enough. So which is it?

3. The test was a written account, yes. But it was made in the journal of a sensor scientist overseeing the test itself.

Doesn't change the fact that it's third-hand info in direct contradiction to multiple other sources.

The 120mm tank gun failing to scratch it is odd, but perhaps it WAS damaged in some manner difficult to detect, such as fracturing. Who knows. It wasn't mentioned, but again you go from the written to the game mechanics of 20mm or .50 cal shells killing Mechs... which has not happened in a single book that I've seen. Mechs run through that fire without breaking stride countless times.

See, here's the thing you're not grasping. Armor that Ablates won't show any damage to the parts of the system that need to work until it's all (or mostly) gone. In game (and fluff) terms, this means mechs CAN walk through fields of smaller projectiles and not have to worry about serious damage, because damage ISN'T serious until a certain amount of armor has ablated.

Meanwhile, ever heard of the Pirhana? It's a Clan Mech mounting nothing but machineguns. I'd be willing to bet there's at least one book out there that showcases it.

Also, consider for a moment that each LRM missile is individually weaker than a single volley from a machine gun on a mech. Something to consider when attempting firepower calculations.

You're saying that small caliber ACs shouldn't affect the mechs in-game, like in a realistic situation. Sure. That doesn't make sense realistically, but think in terms of game balance. Do we really want to make a game where only the AC10 and 20 are of any use at all? It's the same reason my fighter in X-Wing Alliance can kill a star destroyer with blasters, given thirty minutes. Gameplay.

Seriously flawed example, comparing the X-Wing Games with Battletech. About the only simularity between the two is that Stackpole wrote for both.

Consider: Battletech was a GAME FIRST. The world developed around it. The X-Wing games were, essentially, a half-assed attempt to bring the space combat in Star Wars to the computer. Please note that no Starfighter in Star Wars has canonically taken out a Star Destroyer in Thirty Minutes using blasters. Meanwhile, AC/2 and AC/5 have CANONICALLY destroyed battlemechs in novels, fluff, and so on. You'll have a damn hard time arguing otherwise, what with 'Mechs like the Rifleman and the Jagermech in existance.

I'm trying to see things logically. And plenty of the newer novels support what I'm saying explicitly. I've never read a single bit about small lasers, machine guns and AC/2's do anything but vaguely irritate a mech.

If by "newer novels" you mean "Dark Ages", I've never read any of them. I pretty much stopped reading around the end of the Smoke Jaguar arc, because around that point, things just got a little silly for my tastes.

[Hotfoot]

Never in any book I have read, have I ever seen an initial LRM barrage strip away a weapon, arm, or anything else. The only case of total destruction by LRM that I recall offhand was the death of Natasha Kerensky when faced with a disgustingly huge number of missiles that just annihilated her mech in one salvo.

That wasn't Kerensky. Kerensky died when she was cooked in her (breached) cockpit by a jumpjet being fired into it. Jaime Wolf and Aiden Pryde both do plenty of destruction with LRMs, although off hand I don't recall a "name" character dying by massed LRM volley.

He was talking about Ulric. Who died when two full stars of Jade Falcon Omni's configured as missile batteries opened fire based on targeting information Khan Christu was providing. The missile salvo simply disintegrated Ulrics mech and killed most of the rest of his star. Except Vlad who managed to damage Christu before going down.

Yes, my mistake. It's been a long time since I read the books, and I did, in fact, mean to refer to that event.

[Imperial Overlord]

I thought Ulric died by Arrow IV artillery missles, but my memory for Stackpole books isn't that great. In fact, I wish it was worse.

[Chris OFarrell]

Hang on, I'll type the quote.

On second thoughts, screw that. I'll use my fathers scanner and he insanly amazing OCR software.

"Greetings, Vahn."
"And to you, Ulric. When I suggested this duel I had no idea you would bring seconds."
"You can consider them seconds if you wish. For me, they serve as witnesses."
The Jade Falcon Khan laughed. "My gun-camera video will be witness enough to your death."
"Possibly, but such things are often damaged when a 'Mech is destroyed." Ulric's humanoid Gargoyle opened its arms. "Do you require some sort of formal declaration of intent, or shall we begin?"
"It has already begun, Ulric."
That remark struck Vlad as hopelessly bizarre, then he saw the muzzle of the small laser tucked beneath the Gladiator's chin begin to vibrate back and forth like the tines of a tuning fork. He reached over and punched a button on his command, changing his holographic display from starlight to ultraviolet. With that he saw a purplish blade of light scything back and forth, touching all the Wolf 'Mechs in the circle save himself and Mech Warrior Andrew opposite him.
The small laser is configured for targeting. He's feeding telemetry to missile Stars. "Ulric, it's a trap!"
Vlad never knew if Ulric Kerensky heard him or not as salvo after salvo of long-range missiles arced up over the Ministry of Justice building and rained down upon the Wolves. The explosions came fast and thick, filling the circle with a nova-glare that banished night and burned shadows into the stone where they struck. Angry and boiling, the fire became hotter as air rushed in to feed it. A gout of flame shot into the sky like a fiery demon released from hell.
The last Vlad saw of Ulric was an image of the Gargoyle lunging forward, its arms reaching toward the Gladiator. Brilliant fire swept over the 'Mech, smothering it like a blanket. When it parted Vlad thought he saw the blackened silhouette take one more step forward, then disintegrate into ash, torn apart by the titanic force unleashed with the Jade Falcons' missile assault.
The ground rippled beneath Vlad's 'Mech, and he had to fight to keep the Timber Wolf upright. The 'Mech lurched to the right and Vlad felt it start to topple. Cursing, he wrenched his body around and forward, then brought the 'Mech down into a crouch. By lowering the machine's center of gravity he regained control, but in doing so had twisted around so that the Gladiator no longer stood in the firing arc of his weapons.
On his holographic display he saw the Jade Falcon 'Mech shift its autocannon toward where Andrew's bulky Sum-moner had stumbled to its knees. The Gladiator aimed carefully, then fire vomited from the slender muzzle that was its left arm. The swarm of autocannon projectiles blasted into and through the Summoner's cockpit, dropping the 'Mech to the ground like a man just decapitated.
Vlad brought the Timber Wolf up and spun it to face Chistu's Gladiator. "You treacherous slime. You're so low that when you look up all you can see are freebirth soles!"
"Ulric killed them, not me. I did not want witnesses." The Gladiator's arm swung toward the Timber Wolf. "I had hoped to use you, Vlad of the Wards, as a rallying point for the Wolves who remained, but Ulric has seen to it that I cannot."
"/ will see to it that you cannot!" Vlad targeted the Gladiator and tightened up on his triggers. Heat scorched him, but it didn't matter. He was a Wolf, and he would avenge his Khan and cleanse his Clan's honor, even if it cost him his life. By my hand you will die!

One of the two PPCs missed, exploding a Ministry of Justice transformer behind Chistu. The other one combined with the Timber Wolfs two remaining pulse lasers to carve deep furrows into the Gladiator's torso armor. The Timber Wolf's short-range Streak missiles peppered the Gladiator's arms and legs, but destroyed only armor.
The Gladiator's autocannon spat out a double-load of projectiles and hit the Timber Wolf dead center. The depleted-uranium slugs pulverized the ferro-fibrous armor and gnawed into the internal support structures that held the OmniMech together. Sparks flew from consoles in the cockpit, and smoke combined with the heat to choke the pilot.
Worse than the damage done by the weapon was the sheer effect of the transference of kinetic energy to the Timber Wolf. The impact of the shells lifted the torso up and drove it back. Vlad tried to balance the 'Mech, but only succeeded in making it stumble backward. It half-turned to steady itself against the Ministry of Budgets and Taxation building, but the earlier missile explosions had shaken the structure with the force of an earthquake. Vlad's Timber Wolf burst through the wall and crashed onto its back against the mar¬ble floor, scattering support pillars like tenpins.
I must get up! Chistu must die! Vlad shook his head to clear it, but in the heat and the smoke, and with all the warning sirens blaring, he could not concentrate. I must get up! I must.
He struggled even harder, then looked up through the cockpit canopy. Above him, for all of a second, he saw the night sky and the stars spread across it. Then a black void swallowed it. With each instant seeming to stretch into an hour, Vlad saw the walls and roof of the building sag in¬ward, faster and faster. When they hit his 'Mech, the impact shook the machine harder than the explosions and harder than Chistu's autocannon fire.
Somewhere amid the shaking, the star-swallowing void came to Vlad of the Wards, and fight against it though he did, it gobbled him whole.