Moderator: NecronLord
They can't manage a simple infrared scope? We've had those since what, the bloody 1970s? Yeah, sure...SirNitram wrote:Let's see... The Orks, who probably don't know what infrared means, the Imperium, who reload space-based cannon by teams of labourers... Yea, I'm starting to think maybe they might not.
He's wrong.Junghalli wrote:One thread on another message board somebody said combat aircraft were a lost tech in the Imperium.
They had spacecraft but no aircraft?NecronLord wrote:He's wrong.
As are you.
They were a lost tech in the Emperor's early crusade forces. They had the capability to lift to orbit on landers, but not much else. However, the Imperium later recovered the knowledge of advanced aerodynamics needed for arial combat.
and vice versa for Eldarstomp?This may sound silly, but does "clonestomp" mean that the clones lose
-- Asuka Holofields do not blot out EM radiation from ships and vehicles. They distort it making it impossible to lock on to them.Ender wrote:Welcome to the wonderful world of "we never lost infared sensing technology". Waste heat can't be hidden. Kiss your stealth goodbye.
Se my previous post.When you have 10 km ranges for your rifles, you tend not to give a fuck about hand to hand fighters in the dust clouds.
Again, infared and thermodynamics mean this stealth doesn't do shit.[/quote]
The Eldar have a wide range of highly elite highly specialized troops with training and equipment to handle their chosen role. These include more than just close combat guys as noted above. They function together like the various parts of a machine each unit attacking the right unit at the right time as determined by the precognitive powers of the Farseer and communicated to them telepathically. Through the Webway, they are able to open portals on the battlefield allowing new deployment points for reserve troops. As noted above all their transports combine the qualities of tanks and helicopter gunships and are shielded or cloaked, as are their more dedicated hovertanks.I'm yet to see anything about the abilities of these Eldar, aside from people proclaiming instant slaughter. Put up or shut up.
-- Asuka
Marcao wrote:I have played Eldar in WH40k for a while now even if currently my fleet and ground force is out of order since I decided that I no longer wanted to support GW. I own the 2nd edition Eldar Codex, The third edition Eldar Codex, The Kraftworld Cheldar codex, Battle Fleet Gothic and a few other trinkets of information. I will be basing a great deal of my comments primarily on fluff information as I have not to this day given a rat's ass about black library books and as such have not read any books dealing with Eldar ground actions.
1. Shuriken Weapons as a whole tend to suck. Since the weapons are not barrelled (back of the 3rd Edition Eldar Book somewhere) their range tends to be shit, which is represented by their abysmal 12" range in the rulebook. Eldar small arms do spit out a lot of fire (hence their assault nature) but the Clones have an obvious range advantage.
2. The average eldar militia member is not very different from billy ray the Imperial Guardsman conscript from Helena72. The average clone trooper is faster, tougher and a better shot. The average clone trooper is as well at least as well armored as the average eldar militia if not better. Eldar militia drive all Eldar vehicles, and as such eldar vehicles cannot match the accuracy of the more elite armies (Tau, Dark Eldar, SM, CSM, Necrons)
I disagree with this assesment in several levels. Firstly the range on the shuriken cannon is nothing to brag about in the scheme of things. Secondly, the fact that these weapons "threatten" space marine armor is somewhat of a misnomer. A Star Cannon being plasma (ap 2) will of course burn throuh power armor like a lightsaber through a bulkhead. However, a shuriken cannon cannot penetrate the armor of a space marine outright. In this manner, just about any weapon that hits "threattens" Space Marine armor.thirdfain wrote:The Eldar field a variety of powerful, long-range crew served weapons such as the Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon, both of which threaten Space Marine power armor, which is superior to Clone Trooper carapace. The untrained, unexperienced clones get cut down in droves by heavy weapons fire. The Eldar's usage of indirect fire artillary gives them the advantage as well- Distortion Cannons will play hell with the Clone armored vehicles, and will do a fine number indeed on the line of sight SPHATS.
I also disagree with the assesment that Clone Troopers are untrained and unexperienced. The fact is that the bulk of most eldar armies are militia and it has already been established that they are not more trained or experienced than billy ray your typical Imperial Guard conscript. The Aspects are highly trained, but their numbers are inherently limited. The Eldar are a dying race, the Clone Troopers are not. Furthermore, the only means for the Eldar to field heavy weapons are through militia squadrons which are not known for their excellent accuracy or dark reapers, which cannot move while firing (once again, according to game mechanics.)
Distortion Cannons like Shuriken Cannons have abysmal range, and will likely be far out ranged by Clone artillery.
They have portable webway gate generators too, though they are somewhat uncommon.Tasoth wrote:The webway actually needs special gates set up in order for it to work, the closest the eldar have to warping would be the spiders.
-- Asuka I have already pointed out that I have a lot of the fluff. I have the second and third edition eldar codexes, I got the battlefleet gothich book, warp storm 1 and 2. I have some of the fluff, I don't own any of the books because frankly most of them never really impressed me and I am not going to pay for something I don't like. Yes, obviously we have to be careful about applying the game rules to debates but they are there, present, physical and written by the gods of GW. Andy Chambers himself clarified for a time that the way he envisioned it, 1cm was roughly equal to 10,000 kilometers as a scale for Battlefleet Gothic for a time.Glimmervoid wrote:I think we have to be careful not to confuse balance in the rules to the true power we see in the fluff.Marcao wrote:Crap, I messed the quote up. ~_~ Sorry. A mod can feel free to delete the second post if so inclined. ^_^
Perhaps. The majority of kills in combat are caused by crew served weapons, though, and the Clone Trooper's lack of useful advancing doctorines ensure they'll get the wrong end of the stick.)Marcao wrote: 1. Shuriken Weapons as a whole tend to suck. Since the weapons are not barrelled (back of the 3rd Edition Eldar Book somewhere) their range tends to be shit, which is represented by their abysmal 12" range in the rulebook. Eldar small arms do spit out a lot of fire (hence their assault nature) but the Clones have an obvious range advantage.
Hardly important, my point remains. The Eldar field numerous heavy, automatic weapons capable of threatening the Clone Troopers.marcao wrote: I disagree with this assesment in several levels. Firstly the range on the shuriken cannon is nothing to brag about in the scheme of things. Secondly, the fact that these weapons "threatten" space marine armor is somewhat of a misnomer. A Star Cannon being plasma (ap 2) will of course burn throuh power armor like a lightsaber through a bulkhead. However, a shuriken cannon cannot penetrate the armor of a space marine outright. In this manner, just about any weapon that hits "threattens" Space Marine armor.
Trained by a man who has never seen actual war, and is fact little more than a bounty hunter. The poor quality of their training shows in their foolish and near-suicidal Civil War era tactics.I also disagree with the assesment that Clone Troopers are untrained and unexperienced.
The average Imperial Guard conscript, while less well equipped than a Clone Trooper, benefits from a training regimen derived from millenia of modern warfare. The clone trooper does not. The average Guardian Defender militaiman or woman may not be as well equipped as a Clonetrooper, but he or she is certainly better prepared for war.The fact is that the bulk of most eldar armies are militia and it has already been established that they are not more trained or experienced than billy ray your typical Imperial Guard conscript.
Limited, but sufficient.The Aspects are highly trained, but their numbers are inherently limited.
The Clone Troopers in their wave assaults will not be hard targets. If French conscripts could do it in Belgium in 1914, then Eldar conscripts can do it on Geonosis long, long ago. They don't need to be snipers. All they need to do is cut down the unprepared Clones as they march, without armored spearheads, without laying covering fire or using cover or going prone, across the flat desert.Furthermore, the only means for the Eldar to field heavy weapons are through militia squadrons which are not known for their excellent accuracy or dark reapers, which cannot move while firing (once again, according to game mechanics.)
Game mechanics, and ridiculous. The game weapons ranges for lascannon would be abysmal for modern heavy weapons. Would you have me believe that the Imperial Guard are at a huge disadvantage vs. modern-day weaponry because their most powerful antitank weapons have a range that is, at scale, somewhere in the range of a couple hundreds of meters? Modern machine-guns can lay down fire at ranges measured in miles.Distortion Cannons like Shuriken Cannons have abysmal range, and will likely be far out ranged by Clone artillery.
-- Asuka Ah, that explains why over the course of WW1, it wasn't long until soldiers started finding ways to fight despite the choking system of trench warfare they'd been trained to fight in. That explains why it DIDN'T take until 1917 for people to start figuring out storm tactics and infiltration to break the enemy.SVPD wrote: Armies don't, but individual soldiers do.
"Men, try to get to those rocks over there. The enemy isn't coming at us like we thought, they're playing defense"
"OK, Sarge"
The Clones didn't improve during the battle of Geonosis because they were winning. Obviously what they were doing against the droids was working, so there was no incentive to change.
Generally speaking, any army with halfway decent communications gear can asses when it's taking heavy casualties, and adjust to the tactical landscape.
No, sweet pea. I have no idea personally of what the real world ranges the Eldar weapons would be like. However, you cannot argue the fact that they are among the shortest ranged weapons in Universe. Whether you like it or not, Distortion Cannons have shit range. Its fact. A distortion cannon battery cannot and will never match the range of a whirlwind or a basilisk or any other half way decent artillery system in Universe.Thirdfain wrote:Perhaps. The majority of kills in combat are caused by crew served weapons, though, and the Clone Trooper's lack of useful advancing doctorines ensure they'll get the wrong end of the stick.)
You are of course entitled to your opinion. I am waiting until episode III myself to see some more Clone Trooper actions. Furthermore, in the EU books such as Jedi Trial and Labyrinth of Evil the Clone Troopers do not behave in the manner you seem to describe.
The Eldar swordwind army by virtue of being a swordwind design will rely far more heavily on its aspects than its militia in order to suceed. Its heavy weapon count will be limited by the fact that aspect warriors do not carry heavy weapons in grav platforms like the militia can.thirdfain wrote:Hardly important, my point remains. The Eldar field numerous heavy, automatic weapons capable of threatening the Clone Troopers.
Jango was the "best" bounty hunter of his time. We are not talking about mediocrity here, they chose him because he had the desired talents for replication. A man that was not ordinary by any stretch of the imagination.thirdfain wrote:Trained by a man who has never seen actual war, and is fact little more than a bounty hunter. The poor quality of their training shows in their foolish and near-suicidal Civil War era tactics.
I disagree. Since hard numbers for the population of a craftworld are not in my fluff pile, it is difficult to assess exactly how many aspect warriors any particular craftworld holds. However, Clonetroopers by definition are more readily available and likely more numerous.thirdfain wrote:Limited, but sufficient.
Like I have already said earlier, I am looking forward to Episode III to see if their tactics improve at all as is hinted in the aforementioned books. However, since it has already been established that eldar small arms have mediocre range. As such, the Eldar will be in range of Clone weapons before they can return fire.thirdfain wrote:The Clone Troopers in their wave assaults will not be hard targets. If French conscripts could do it in Belgium in 1914, then Eldar conscripts can do it on Geonosis long, long ago. They don't need to be snipers. All they need to do is cut down the unprepared Clones as they march, without armored spearheads, without laying covering fire or using cover or going prone, across the flat desert.
Assuming they can see the enemy of course they will be able to fire and since they cannot move while firing, I am sure that you will put two and two together as to what happens to these immobile and relatively "squishy" targets are on the battlefield."thirdfain"]The inability of Dark Reapers to move and fire is completely unimportant. They'll still be in a fine position to cut down their enemy.
thirdfain wrote:Game mechanics, and ridiculous. The game weapons ranges for lascannon would be abysmal for modern heavy weapons. Would you have me believe that the Imperial Guard are at a huge disadvantage vs. modern-day weaponry because their most powerful antitank weapons have a range that is, at scale, somewhere in the range of a couple hundreds of meters? Modern machine-guns can lay down fire at ranges measured in miles.
Similarly, the game ranges for shuriken cannons are pretty damn useless. Relatively short ranged? Sure. Incapable of firing more than 50 meters or so? Ridiculous.
Oh, and what Clone artillary? Besides the SPHA-Ts in the Clone Wars cartoon (of dubious canon, recall the whole thing is a child's recount, IIRC,) they have none.
Even the guns in the Clone Wars were unable to hit the Banking Guild gun on Muunilist. The city it lay in the center of was large, but not dozens of miles in diameter. Modern heavy artillary can reach those ranges, yet the SPHA-T indirect weapons seemed unable to.
What? That's retarded!NecronLord wrote:Not really.
Loose the concept of the aerodynamic wing (they still don't have this). See how easy you find air combat.
This is hardly important. We are talking about the Battle of Geonosis, and the Clone Troopers of that era. Their tactics are not my opinion, they are canon. We can all see them, on screen, marching in those nice human waves.Marcao wrote:
You are of course entitled to your opinion. I am waiting until episode III myself to see some more Clone Trooper actions. Furthermore, in the EU books such as Jedi Trial and Labyrinth of Evil the Clone Troopers do not behave in the manner you seem to describe.
A couple dozen heavy machine gun equivs in the hands of semicompotent soldiers would be more than sufficient to stop the Clone advance towards the core ships. A Swordwind army should be able to conjour that up just fine.thirdfain wrote: The Eldar swordwind army by virtue of being a swordwind design will rely far more heavily on its aspects than its militia in order to suceed. Its heavy weapon count will be limited by the fact that aspect warriors do not carry heavy weapons in grav platforms like the militia can.
Are you SERIOUSLY implying that a bounty hunter is someone who knows military tactics? This is simply ridiculous. You can't wave away the simple fact that in AOTC, the clones MARCH FORWARDS IN A HUMAN WAVE. THEY TAKE NO COVER. THEY USE NO ARMORED SPEARHEADS. THEY ATTACK ON A BROAD, FLAT PLAIN. This is not the act of a military genius. This is the act of an army which is lucky enough to be facing an equally inept foe.thirdfain wrote: Jango was the "best" bounty hunter of his time. We are not talking about mediocrity here, they chose him because he had the desired talents for replication. A man that was not ordinary by any stretch of the imagination.
Sure, but we are pitting roughly equal number forces here. I see no reason why the Eldar, who are capable of (barely) standing up to the multi-billion man armies of the Imperium of Man, will be unable to match the clones at Geonosis.thirdfain wrote: I disagree. Since hard numbers for the population of a craftworld are not in my fluff pile, it is difficult to assess exactly how many aspect warriors any particular craftworld holds. However, Clonetroopers by definition are more readily available and likely more numerous.
We are talking about the Geonosis battle, so who cares about ep. 3.thirdfain wrote: Like I have already said earlier, I am looking forward to Episode III to see if their tactics improve at all as is hinted in the aforementioned books. However, since it has already been established that eldar small arms have mediocre range. As such, the Eldar will be in range of Clone weapons before they can return fire.
Unnecessary. The Clones didn't even HAVE non-line of sight arty at Geonosis, and dubious evidence at BEST gives them arty inferior in range to our own today. The Eldar have less range than the fantastic IoM arty. That doesn't mean they'll be inferior to the godawful (and perhaps simply non-existent) clone arty.If the books bring into evidence that distort cannon have ranges in the hundreds of kilometers..
Once again, why would they be unable to see the Clones? THE CLONES ARE TACTICAL RETARDS AS OF GEONOSIS. You can't refute that fact. Do so, or concede.Assuming they can see the enemy of course they will be able to fire and since they cannot move while firing, I am sure that you will put two and two together as to what happens to these immobile and relatively "squishy" targets are on the battlefield.
I think its ITW that says the Clonies actually walk into battle in such formations because they were trained to assume they would have a Jedi in front of them deflecting blaster boltsThis is hardly important. We are talking about the Battle of Geonosis, and the Clone Troopers of that era. Their tactics are not my opinion, they are canon. We can all see them, on screen, marching in those nice human waves
They have a superheavy transport with a portable webgate inside it..They have portable webway gate generators too, though they are somewhat uncommon.
Wraithbone hulls are also described as distorting active sensor radiation.Holofields do not blot out EM radiation from ships and vehicles. They distort it making it impossible to lock on to them
Perhaps the next poll should use clearer, more universal terminology. 
