Federation (Trek) vs Systems Alliance (Mass Effect)

[Crazedwraith]

Combat VI's are designed to attack unfamiliar operating systems. The geth are the best at this sort of thing, but everybody has combat software intended to invade foreign hardware and OSs.

That's a neat trick. Can they expect the unexpected too?

[Ted C]

Combat VI's are designed to attack unfamiliar operating systems. The geth are the best at this sort of thing, but everybody has combat software intended to invade foreign hardware and OSs.

That's a neat trick. Can they expect the unexpected too?

VI's are a type of low-level artificial intelligence. They can solve problems, but they don't have self-awareness or individual initiative. Presumably that's what makes this sort of attack software possible.

And code running on unfamiliar OSs is hardly out of the ordinary in Star Trek, either.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think the point is that you're assuming they run on similar/compatible technologies, operating principles, etc.

This is like saying 40K machine spirits (which can encompass an insane variety of forms) are all hackable because they're the universes equivalent of 'computer'.

[NeoGoomba]

This is a good point. The combat VI's may be so successful in the ME universe because most of the races use similar computer tech (hence the universal use of omni-tools for tech interactions). It's kind of the whole point, thematically anyways, that the races all develop similarly from a tech standpoint. But pit the VI's against totally foreign operating systems and they lose their effectiveness as aggressive cyber-warfare weapons.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Back on the FTL tangent:

The problem isn't so much that ME-style FTL is a gas guzzler, as that they have to 'discharge' after a certain amount of time in FTL. The larger the ship, the longer they can stay in FTL, without (literally) frying the crew. I don't believe it is ever specified just how long they can pull it off, but that is a limiting factor. Since a Feddie ship can (potentially) range further than an equivalent ME ship, and at a slightly faster speed.

Plus, the fact that even short range trips require discharging (normally in a planets magnetic field) the SA ships probably can't drop out of FTL and start blasting away at people (something a lot of people forget). At least they shouldn't be able to. I can't think of a battle in ME (off the top of my head) that doesn't involve a Mass Relay which negates the static charge problem.

[Starglider]

Mass Effect ECM/EW will probably be almost worthless, because the Federation ships are using FTL sensors and comms, based on subspace, tacyhons and a whole gallery of made up particles (inverse polarons or whatever the technobabble of the week was). Conventional RADAR and LIDAR is never mentioned and probably not a factor, conventional radio is monitored but not used for military comms. Even ignoring the inaccessibility of the comms medium, 'combat hacking' is extremely unlikely to work against opponents with much faster FTL-based computers and at least comparable AI. We know Federation computers do have weaknesses as demonstrated by Yamato being destroyed by the Iconians, but that's vastly superior technology; none of the Federation's contemporaries can do it. Maybe EDI would have a chance if access can be established but as I understand it her capabilities were almost unique in Mass Effect, standard Alliance warships don't have sentient AIs available.

Regardless the massive numerical superiority of the Federation and ability to control engagements (due to higher warp speeds) will pretty much guarantee victory in a straight fight, although both universes are prone to deus ex machinas, and reasonably the Federation would try to get whatever they want via negotiation first.

[Ted C]

This is a good point. The combat VI's may be so successful in the ME universe because most of the races use similar computer tech (hence the universal use of omni-tools for tech interactions). It's kind of the whole point, thematically anyways, that the races all develop similarly from a tech standpoint. But pit the VI's against totally foreign operating systems and they lose their effectiveness as aggressive cyber-warfare weapons.

Despite the fact that everyone and his fifth cousin twice removed seems to be able to hack Star Trek computers, I suppose that the tech base of ME is sufficiently unrelated that we can dismiss the hacking factor.

[The Dark]

That puts mass effect FTL (without using relays) at over 4000c, which is definitely competitive with warp drive: somewhere between warp 7 and warp 8, by my estimates.

If it's exactly 12 light years per day, it's 4380c, which is somewhere over Warp 9 on the TNG/VOY revised scale (about Warp 16.36 on the ENT/TOS geometric scale). Warp 9 itself is 1516c in the new scale, but the logarithmic exponents for warp speeds over 9 were never officially published (the scale above Warp 9 was hand-drawn). According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia, Warp 9.9 is 3,053c and Warp 9.99 is 7,912c, so if we accept that as broadly correct information, it would be somewhere in the low 9.9x range.

[Ted C]

That puts mass effect FTL (without using relays) at over 4000c, which is definitely competitive with warp drive: somewhere between warp 7 and warp 8, by my estimates.

If it's exactly 12 light years per day, it's 4380c, which is somewhere over Warp 9 on the TNG/VOY revised scale (about Warp 16.36 on the ENT/TOS geometric scale). Warp 9 itself is 1516c in the new scale, but the logarithmic exponents for warp speeds over 9 were never officially published (the scale above Warp 9 was hand-drawn). According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia, Warp 9.9 is 3,053c and Warp 9.99 is 7,912c, so if we accept that as broadly correct information, it would be somewhere in the low 9.9x range.

My estimate is based on a curve I did that plots various reported time/distance statements on a curve, with statements that also have a warp factor given priority. Wild outliers are removed, and I get a formula of W^4.1 for warp speed in multiples of c. Your own mileage may vary.

[bilateralrope]

I didn't even think of that. Not really a factor in this contest, but can you imagine what EDI could do to a Federation starship, given the low quality of their network security?

EDI is a full AI and a one off. Not the VI that the Systems Alliance typically have in their ships. So I don't think you could extrapolate from her abilities.

Combat VI's are designed to attack unfamiliar operating systems. The geth are the best at this sort of thing, but everybody has combat software intended to invade foreign hardware and OSs.

The only faction in Mass Effect that could have an unfamiliar OS was the Reapers. Everyone else has been around for long enough for the Geth to get familiar with their systems.

And the Geth are full AIs. Systems Alliance ships only have VIs.

Also, didn't EDIs hacking rely on the Normandy getting close enough to the enemy ship that they were in range of the ships internal wireless networks ?

Trek has much less wireless networking.

Have a look at this codex entry

Computers: Haptic Adaptive Interface Edit

Advances in computing have done away with traditional input devices like keyboards. Instead, modern input peripherals are usually holographically displayed in front of the user at a height and angle for ergonomic ease. Machines that use this interface detect a user through a microframe chip in the user's glove that "keys in" to the computer. Once a user is accepted, motion accelerometers in the user's gloves match his hands' location with that of a proportionate but smaller "mirror" set of controls inside the computer itself. As the user presses against the holographic field, force-feedback in the glove kicks in, giving a slight resistance. A person can feel his way through using a touch-screen that isn't actually there. A simple toggle switch on the back of the hands allows the glove to be turned off when not in use.

Haptic interfaces have become so common that some individuals undergo cybernetic enhancement surgery to have the accelerometers implanted in their fingertips. "Going bareskin" is the sign of a committed computer user who no longer has to fuss with putting on gloves or cleaning them with alcohol wipes to get rid of the clammy-hand smell.

Every single one of those holographic interfaces is a wireless connection that could be hacked and/or jammed. In Trek, people still have to touch the controls to operate them.

Apart from the combadges, what systems in Trek ships rely on wireless ?

I can't think of a battle in ME (off the top of my head) that doesn't involve a Mass Relay which negates the static charge problem.

I recall a codex entry saying that there is nothing that stops one side in a ME fleet engagement from just running if they want to. So battles only happen where there is something that both sides want to fight over. That, not the static buildup, is why battles don't happen in the depths of space.

Do we have any numbers regarding how much of a charge gets built up ?

[Skywalker_T-65]

I didn't even think of that. Not really a factor in this contest, but can you imagine what EDI could do to a Federation starship, given the low quality of their network security?

EDI is a full AI and a one off. Not the VI that the Systems Alliance typically have in their ships. So I don't think you could extrapolate from her abilities.

Combat VI's are designed to attack unfamiliar operating systems. The geth are the best at this sort of thing, but everybody has combat software intended to invade foreign hardware and OSs.

The only faction in Mass Effect that could have an unfamiliar OS was the Reapers. Everyone else has been around for long enough for the Geth to get familiar with their systems.

And the Geth are full AIs. Systems Alliance ships only have VIs.

Also, didn't EDIs hacking rely on the Normandy getting close enough to the enemy ship that they were in range of the ships internal wireless networks ?

Trek has much less wireless networking.

Have a look at this codex entry

Computers: Haptic Adaptive Interface Edit

Advances in computing have done away with traditional input devices like keyboards. Instead, modern input peripherals are usually holographically displayed in front of the user at a height and angle for ergonomic ease. Machines that use this interface detect a user through a microframe chip in the user's glove that "keys in" to the computer. Once a user is accepted, motion accelerometers in the user's gloves match his hands' location with that of a proportionate but smaller "mirror" set of controls inside the computer itself. As the user presses against the holographic field, force-feedback in the glove kicks in, giving a slight resistance. A person can feel his way through using a touch-screen that isn't actually there. A simple toggle switch on the back of the hands allows the glove to be turned off when not in use.

Haptic interfaces have become so common that some individuals undergo cybernetic enhancement surgery to have the accelerometers implanted in their fingertips. "Going bareskin" is the sign of a committed computer user who no longer has to fuss with putting on gloves or cleaning them with alcohol wipes to get rid of the clammy-hand smell.

Every single one of those holographic interfaces is a wireless connection that could be hacked and/or jammed. In Trek, people still have to touch the controls to operate them.

Apart from the combadges, what systems in Trek ships rely on wireless ?

I can't think of a battle in ME (off the top of my head) that doesn't involve a Mass Relay which negates the static charge problem.

I recall a codex entry saying that there is nothing that stops one side in a ME fleet engagement from just running if they want to. So battles only happen where there is something that both sides want to fight over. That, not the static buildup, is why battles don't happen in the depths of space.

Do we have any numbers regarding how much of a charge gets built up ?

I was more referring to the fact we don't see a battle begin from an FTL jump, as opposed to jumping in from a Relay (like the Geth attack at the end of ME1). As for the static charge...I don't believe we were ever given any numbers. The only hint on the wiki FTL page is that 'the longer you stay in FTL, the greater the charge'. But since we don't know the typical low-end length of a jump, or the high-end length...

*shrug*

EDIT: Unless of course, the books tell us. Or ME3. Since I have neither, I couldn't say.

[bilateralrope]

I was more referring to the fact we don't see a battle begin from an FTL jump, as opposed to jumping in from a Relay (like the Geth attack at the end of ME1). As for the static charge...I don't believe we were ever given any numbers. The only hint on the wiki FTL page is that 'the longer you stay in FTL, the greater the charge'. But since we don't know the typical low-end length of a jump, or the high-end length...

*shrug*

EDIT: Unless of course, the books tell us. Or ME3. Since I have neither, I couldn't say.

The ME3 final battle starts with the non-Reaper forces jumping in. Spoiler

The battle is in orbit of Earth. The Reaper got there first, the relay is out by Pluto. That leaves little option but for the non-Reaper forces to start fighting right after dropping out of ship FTL

[Connor MacLeod]

Mass Effect ECM/EW will probably be almost worthless, because the Federation ships are using FTL sensors and comms, based on subspace, tacyhons and a whole gallery of made up particles (inverse polarons or whatever the technobabble of the week was). Conventional RADAR and LIDAR is never mentioned and probably not a factor, conventional radio is monitored but not used for military comms. Even ignoring the inaccessibility of the comms medium, 'combat hacking' is extremely unlikely to work against opponents with much faster FTL-based computers and at least comparable AI. We know Federation computers do have weaknesses as demonstrated by Yamato being destroyed by the Iconians, but that's vastly superior technology; none of the Federation's contemporaries can do it. Maybe EDI would have a chance if access can be established but as I understand it her capabilities were almost unique in Mass Effect, standard Alliance warships don't have sentient AIs available.

Regardless the massive numerical superiority of the Federation and ability to control engagements (due to higher warp speeds) will pretty much guarantee victory in a straight fight, although both universes are prone to deus ex machinas, and reasonably the Federation would try to get whatever they want via negotiation first.

as I recall they use at least some 'active' Lightspeed sensors for targeting, because of that whole Picard Manuever thing. That doesn't mean they're reliant solely on those sensors, but its still a factor.

Its probably better to say EW is probably going to be an issue, but not an insurmountable one for the Federation. I can't remember a source but it can't be the first time they've dealt with interference or sensor disruption and had to adapt (in war or whatever.) and even then the subspace sensors will be unjammable and provide some advantage. Comms will be of benefit to the sensors as they are also unjammable and can allow them to use drones or probes to provide sensor/telemetry data that can be of assistance.

[Skywalker_T-65]

I was more referring to the fact we don't see a battle begin from an FTL jump, as opposed to jumping in from a Relay (like the Geth attack at the end of ME1). As for the static charge...I don't believe we were ever given any numbers. The only hint on the wiki FTL page is that 'the longer you stay in FTL, the greater the charge'. But since we don't know the typical low-end length of a jump, or the high-end length...

*shrug*

EDIT: Unless of course, the books tell us. Or ME3. Since I have neither, I couldn't say.

The ME3 final battle starts with the non-Reaper forces jumping in. Spoiler

The battle is in orbit of Earth. The Reaper got there first, the relay is out by Pluto. That leaves little option but for the non-Reaper forces to start fighting right after dropping out of ship FTL

Huh...I'll withdraw that point then. Like I said, I haven't played ME3 yet, and really have no desire to anyway

[NeoGoomba]

So just a quick glance at the ME codex shows that the Alliance really has no shot against the Federation. At their "height", they only have eight dreadnoughts. So only eight ships with the potential to maybe take on a Starfleet ship one-to-one. Unless they have a extremely high number of cruisers with firepower close to the dreadnoughts, they are going down hard in space.

Even if it is the pre-Dominion War Federation, I don't think the Systems Alliance has enough materiel to cause a smaller but drawn out conflict like the Federation/Cardassian war.