Brian Young's new website: Houston, we have liftoff!

[Collossus]

Very interesting. I liked the format of the Site, and I do prefer the video's over txt because at least you can just listen to the audio of it and be working on something else.

Also I like the feedback videos he is posting in response to these comments.

I wonder if Brian will do any material regarding 40K? or is thisjust televised type sci fi?

I look forward to your next video.

[Captain Seafort]

While I agree with Brian's points in general terms, I can't help but consider the circumstances where they'd fall down. Take the point that industrial capacity beat technology, for example. While this would certainly be the case in relatively closely matched fights (such as WW2), for a sufficient disparity between the two that disparity alone would be sufficient to win a war. If a power with superior FTL and numbers (A) was to take on a power with superior weapons and defensive technology which included planetary shields (B), then A would be in trouble. They would be able to engage and disengage at will, but if B's ships could weather those attacks and continue pushing on they would be able to directly bombard or invade A's homeworld. Conversely, while A would be able to reach B's homeworld far sooner, and would have the numbers to conquer it if they could get their forces onto the ground, the planetary shields would prevent that. Superior technology would defeat superior logistics.

I'm also looking forward to his thoughts on what exactly the Galactica is capable of. While direct statements of speed limit her to lightspeed, statements of her progress demonstrate that both her and her fleet are capable of interstellar travel at the very least, and possibly intergalactic travel. This indicates to me that "lightspeed" refers to the limit of a specific type of propulsion, and not to an absolute speed limit.

[Ahriman238]

I liked the Minbari vs. Federation video, for the most part. He seemed to make several assumptions, fixating on the relative size of the Enteprise versus that of B5 ships, and assuming they would have similar armor, while not factoring in the difference likely made by Federation shields. The fed-sensors vs. Minbari stealth system is just comparing unquantifiables, we don't really know how either system works and only broadly what their limits are.

There are strengths to the video format, namely the ability to string together clips of supporting evidence. I too, however, generally prefer text, or better yet video and a text version, as Chuck is wont to do.

[the atom]

I did feel as though he was somewhat unfair with the Federation firepower examples he used, especially given that in many of them Kirk and several others were often less then ten feet away. "A modern cruise missile would have killed them all" Er...yeah that's sort of the point. But other then that, good video and an excellent point at the end that I was unaware of.

[Collossus]

I liked the Minbari vs. Federation video, for the most part. He seemed to make several assumptions, fixating on the relative size of the Enteprise versus that of B5 ships, and assuming they would have similar armor, while not factoring in the difference likely made by Federation shields. The fed-sensors vs. Minbari stealth system is just comparing unquantifiables, we don't really know how either system works and only broadly what their limits are.

There are strengths to the video format, namely the ability to string together clips of supporting evidence. I too, however, generally prefer text, or better yet video and a text version, as Chuck is wont to do.

Was this part of another video? Appartenly I fell asleep or something cause I watched them all but don't recall a "Minbari vs. Federation video"......

[Lord Revan]

I liked the Minbari vs. Federation video, for the most part. He seemed to make several assumptions, fixating on the relative size of the Enteprise versus that of B5 ships, and assuming they would have similar armor, while not factoring in the difference likely made by Federation shields. The fed-sensors vs. Minbari stealth system is just comparing unquantifiables, we don't really know how either system works and only broadly what their limits are.

There are strengths to the video format, namely the ability to string together clips of supporting evidence. I too, however, generally prefer text, or better yet video and a text version, as Chuck is wont to do.

Was this part of another video? Appartenly I fell asleep or something cause I watched them all but don't recall a "Minbari vs. Federation video"......

it's in the "this versus that" section.

[Lord Revan]

...if you can't your troops...

ghetto edit:...if you can't get them there or your troops...

[Vympel]

The sensor stuff is a pretty good catalog of TOS exclusive incidents that nicely illustrate the point that they're hardly omniscient. I'm more familiar with the TNG examples personally.

[Parallax]

I liked the Minbari vs. Federation video, for the most part.

For the most part it was great but there was one thing he missed when he pointed out the Jump Gate weakness. Namely, it's one that can be guarded pretty easily - how? Well, the video made it pretty clear that the Minbari have superiority in several areas including speed and firepower. And numbers. 12 Enterprise-esque ships (as shown in the video) vs. the Minbari fleet we saw ... and the Minbari have superior ships anyhow?

Even if we throw the Federation equal numbers, with the tech superiority the Minbari apparently possess they could leave enough ships to safely secure the Jump Gates and still have enough left over for aggressive actions.

Even if it requires having scouts/sensor sweeps of the area around the Gates, with the Minbari speed advantage you could even have Minbari ships travel fair distances away and still have them back in time for defensive action.

[the atom]

Wow I got almost a full Q&A video directed to my questions.

[Stofsk]

I liked the Minbari vs. Federation video, for the most part. He seemed to make several assumptions, fixating on the relative size of the Enteprise versus that of B5 ships, and assuming they would have similar armor, while not factoring in the difference likely made by Federation shields. The fed-sensors vs. Minbari stealth system is just comparing unquantifiables, we don't really know how either system works and only broadly what their limits are.

I did feel as though he was somewhat unfair with the Federation firepower examples he used, especially given that in many of them Kirk and several others were often less then ten feet away. "A modern cruise missile would have killed them all" Er...yeah that's sort of the point. But other then that, good video and an excellent point at the end that I was unaware of.

I agree. I just finished watching the video and while I do appreciate that it wouldn't be an easy win for the Federation (he acknowledges that Trek wins because B5 FTL is highly susceptible to disruption by targeting the jumpgates, while Trek warp drive allows individual ships to come and go as they please, even if they travel slower), I find a few of his observations to be flawed.

He gives the advantage on the ground to the Federation, because of the firepower of phasers, some signs that they employ body armour (of a sort, anyway), and have things like artillery and mortars/grenades. While I agree, I think he's laying it on a bit thick if he assumes the minbari don't have firearms or heavy weapons just because we only ever see one dude brandish a pistol once, and every other time they use knives or those stupid 'fighting pikes'. Garibaldi's experience during the war, while short on specific details, would suggest that the minbari have weaponry and tools we just haven't seen thanks to the lack of a budget, unless the contention is EarthForce ground pounders are even less well-equipped (which I don't think is reasonable at all).

But the biggest bugbear I have is his deconstruction of Starfleet phaser weapons, photon torpedos, and their sensors. Trek sensors certainly do have their limits, no argument there, but I don't think it's wise to start off with an assumption 'are Trek's sensor's omniscient? Signs point to "lol no".' Rather I think its a better idea to look at what they can achieve as well as what they cannot. The argument between stealth vs sensors is a contest between what is largely unquantifiable, but we do know that minbari stealth is not a cloaking device. But he even used a clip from 'Balance of Terror' where Sulu points out the difficulty in targeting the cloaked bird of prey because of the lack of a visible target. But, they were still able to track the BoP just not accurately enough to zero in on them. I would actually think this is a point in Trek's favour, insofar as it is still unquantifiable. A lot of the other examples seem irrelevant. Like scanning for lifeforms and not finding them, and then whoa Kirk and co get ambushed by dudes. I mean, that might be relevant for a ground fight, but I don't see how those sensors would be the same ones you'd use in space warfare (in other words, 'sensors' are not ubiquitous, you'd have different types of sensors for different tasks and pointing out the limitations of one example doesn't mean that they are limited in areas that are directly relevant to a space fight).

As for phasers and photon torpedos. Oh boy. I get the feeling he was cherry picking his bad examples. Taking the photorp from STV as an example of 'lol low yield' but handwaving away the line from Scotty in 'A Taste of Armageddon' where the destructive capabilities of the Enterprise was well established (i.e. their firepower should allow them to devastate an advanced planetary civilisation) seems to me spurious reasoning. We saw the Enterprise fire a photorp in TMP that destroyed a single asteroid that was large enough to threaten the Enterprise with destruction. He also picked up the TNG Tech Manual at the start when he's talking about warp factor scales, then when he's talking about firepower yields he only refers to the STV example. However, 'Redemption part 2' outright says that photorp yields can be dialed down. So knowing this, why wouldn't Chekov have modified the photorp so that the yield would be low enough to allow his Captain and Spock and McCoy to survive in close proximity? The fact that two megaton nukes will wtfpwn a minbari, while an unquantified yield could damage the Enterprise but not in a severe way (his two examples from 'Balance of Terror' and 'Tomorrow is Yesterday' don't lend itself to the observation he makes that the Enterprise was crippled in the former and seriously threatened in the latter, IMO - the Enterprise was damaged but not destroyed, and it wasn't even crippled like he suggests because the Enterprise survives the final confrontation with the Bird of Prey at the end of the episode, and as for the time travel episode well I think Spock was more or less referring to how even taking minor damage would be threatening in their current situation primarily because they were stranded three hundred years in the past with no recourse to a friendly spacedock), would strike me as the latter being more resilient than the former.

As for the damage the Enterprise took in WoK, he's ignoring the immediate damage control report Spock gives Kirk, where he points out the precise locations that were targeted, and then when Khan opens communications to Kirk only to gloat. The whole idea of that scene was that if Khan wanted to destroy the Enterprise he likely could have done it, but he deliberately wanted to see Kirk defeated before killing him. He was toying with him like a cat playing with a mouse, and that metaphor largely informs us on the type of combat we see in WoK. And we know from TOS 'The Ultimate Computer' that phasers, like photorps, can have their power settings lowered as well. Another thing about Trek firepower, is that whenever shields are down starships tend to go boom quite quickly, unless you happen to be in the USS Defiant with its crazyawesome ablative armour (which totally doesn't ablate when hit but whatevers). When shields fail a phaser strike can destroy a ship in one shot. To his credit he did point this out with an example from TOS 'Day of the Dove'.

Having said all that, I do agree with him more broadly on his observations. EDIT And his conclusions.

[Vympel]

As for the damage the Enterprise took in WoK, he's ignoring the immediate damage control report Spock gives Kirk, where he points out the precise locations that were targeted, and then when Khan opens communications to Kirk only to gloat. The whole idea of that scene was that if Khan wanted to destroy the Enterprise he likely could have done it, but he deliberately wanted to see Kirk defeated before killing him. He was toying with him like a cat playing with a mouse, and that metaphor largely informs us on the type of combat we see in WoK.

I don't think this really rebuts Brian's point - there are multiple examples that all align with his argument:-

1: Most importantly, in the nebula battle, Khan wasn't holding back, yet the damage caused is on the same order as that inflicted in the initial ambush;
2: Kruge's photon torpedo against the Enterprise in ST3 was similarly a not very catastrophic hit; and
3: It took many photon torpedoes to blow apart a disabled BoP in ST6.

(keeping in mind Brian's entire scenario is TOS specific)

[Stofsk]

As for the damage the Enterprise took in WoK, he's ignoring the immediate damage control report Spock gives Kirk, where he points out the precise locations that were targeted, and then when Khan opens communications to Kirk only to gloat. The whole idea of that scene was that if Khan wanted to destroy the Enterprise he likely could have done it, but he deliberately wanted to see Kirk defeated before killing him. He was toying with him like a cat playing with a mouse, and that metaphor largely informs us on the type of combat we see in WoK.

I don't think this really rebuts Brian's point - there are multiple examples that all align with his argument:-

1: Most importantly, in the nebula battle, Khan wasn't holding back, yet the damage caused is on the same order as that inflicted in the initial ambush;

But Enterprise did way more damage in the nebula battle, comparatively speaking. Maybe Reliant wasn't fighting at 100% phaser power? It had sustained damage from the first battle IIRC. Or maybe it was more that Enterprise was luckier in the hits it got vs the ones it gave to Reliant? It's a bit incongruous because Enterprise was blasting the shit out of Reliant's nacelle and even shot it off.

2: Kruge's photon torpedo against the Enterprise in ST3 was similarly a not very catastrophic hit; and

True. But Kruge only let off one torpedo and it did completely cripple Enterprise. (was it a torpedo or was it a disruptor? It was green coloured IIRC and it seemed to hit at the aft end of the saucer so maybe Kruge targeted the engines specifically to disable?) Although Enterprise's torpedo didn't seem to significantly damage Kruge's ship, Kruge did point out that Enterprise outgunned it '10 to 1'. And we know that only a handful of guys were onboard, so literally Enterprise wasn't fighting at its full power. That seems to be an unfair contest, as Scotty even mentions he wasn't prepared or expecting the Enterprise to have to fight.

3: It took many photon torpedoes to blow apart a disabled BoP in ST6.

I think that was just both Enterprise and Excelsior pumping Chang with torpedos til he blew. The one torp that homed in ended the fight, but they wanted overkill. (IIRC didn't the torpedo basically blow up the bridge? When Plummer was going 'To be, or not... to be' and as the torp hit the bridge where Chang was blew up?) Even then, it was what, at most half a dozen I counted?

We've heard photon torpedos referred to as carrying enormous destructive capability in TOS. Like the TMP example but to be fair, I guess Trek was never really consistent with this. In 'Elaan of Troyius' Kirk orders Chekov to give the klingon D7 cruiser a full spread of photon torpedos, and the damage it sustained forced it to retreat. (Chekov seems to say a single torpedo did all the damage but that might be a problem with the transcript I'm reading) However, in 'The Changeling' when under fire from Nomad's glowy blob of doom Spock reports that the shields absorbed roughly 90 of their photon torpedos. So... inconsistent.

[Vympel]

But Enterprise did way more damage in the nebula battle, comparatively speaking. Maybe Reliant wasn't fighting at 100% phaser power? It had sustained damage from the first battle IIRC. Or maybe it was more that Enterprise was luckier in the hits it got vs the ones it gave to Reliant? It's a bit incongruous because Enterprise was blasting the shit out of Reliant's nacelle and even shot it off.

Yeah, Enterprise did more damage because it hit more critical areas - remember that when Kirk returned fire after Khan strafed the torpedo bay, it hit the bridge directly. Also, the Enterprise had the benefit of hitting the Reliant with both "barrels" so to speak – one of the Reliant's ‘rollbar’ mounted phasers missed the target completely.

Also Reliant had full power- remember when Khan’s offsider announces “full power has been restored”.

True. But Kruge only let off one torpedo and it did completely cripple Enterprise. (was it a torpedo or was it a disruptor? It was green coloured IIRC and it seemed to hit at the aft end of the saucer so maybe Kruge targeted the engines specifically to disable?) Although Enterprise's torpedo didn't seem to significantly damage Kruge's ship, Kruge did point out that Enterprise outgunned it '10 to 1'. And we know that only a handful of guys were onboard, so literally Enterprise wasn't fighting at its full power. That seems to be an unfair contest, as Scotty even mentions he wasn't prepared or expecting the Enterprise to have to fight.

Well yes, the point I’m only focusing on Kruge’s counter-fire is that the Enterprise had its shields down – I’m not sure whether BoPs have shields up while cloaked / immediately coming out of cloak, which is why I didn’t refer to Kirk two-shotting Kruge – but you are right that Kruge tells the (new) gunner to target the engines only IIRC.

I think that was just both Enterprise and Excelsior pumping Chang with torpedos til he blew. The one torp that homed in ended the fight, but they wanted overkill. (IIRC didn't the torpedo basically blow up the bridge? When Plummer was going 'To be, or not... to be' and as the torp hit the bridge where Chang was blew up?) Even then, it was what, at most half a dozen I counted?

We've heard photon torpedos referred to as carrying enormous destructive capability in TOS. Like the TMP example but to be fair, I guess Trek was never really consistent with this. In 'Elaan of Troyius' Kirk orders Chekov to give the klingon D7 cruiser a full spread of photon torpedos, and the damage it sustained forced it to retreat. (Chekov seems to say a single torpedo did all the damage but that might be a problem with the transcript I'm reading) However, in 'The Changeling' when under fire from Nomad's glowy blob of doom Spock reports that the shields absorbed roughly 90 of their photon torpedos. So... inconsistent.

No surprises there What I took Brian to mean is that the weapons don’t blow ships apart on single impacts, whilst of course they still do significant damage.

[Vympel]

Just a note guys, Brian is responsing to lots of our questions and comments on his youtube channel - check it out if you haven't already.

[Lord Revan]

I looked at Brian's Q&A and on the possibility of warp strafing the jumpgates it really depends on 2 things can ST powers destroy the jumpgates within a reasonble time (IIRC they were pretty sturdy needing either a ship selfdestruct or that wierd jump point within a jump point thing the White Star did to be taken out) and second it depends on how the mimbari stealth system works which we don't know IIRC, if it works like the "stealth systems" on the F-117 Nighthawk or B-2 Spirit then sure jumpgates could be strafed but if it works by overloading the opponents sensors with "white noise" it's a whole different thing.

other things my screenname is pronounced with "re" like in "ready" not like in "read" (like the character I took the name from), but that's more a "just that you know" rather then a true complaint. also I think 40k refers to warhammer 40000 which is primarly a tabletop game series but there's other games and novels (plus a CGI movie).

[Parallax]

I don't think the warp strafing, while a fine idea, would work terribly well.

Firstly, it's extremely slow in terms of firing rates. One shot per minute, perhaps?

Secondly, we know that B5 tech has a fair number of interceptor type weapons that are designed to shoot down incoming projectiles. Could they handle photon torpedoes heading in? No idea but it'd be worth a shot.

Thirdly, we know that Minbari sensors can really screw around with electronics that are relatively unshielded. I like to assume Minbari sensor sweeps would do much the same to SF tech (which seems to be affected by everything from nebula gas, solar flares and possibly someone sneezing). If a Minbari ship or three sits at a Jump Gate with their sensors continously going, I don't see SF ships being able to target much at all - which leaves them relying on line of sight, which is terrible. And impossible if they're already moving FTL since they'll be past a target by the time they see it if they can't use sensors at all... And if they slow down enough to eyeball the Jump Gate to try to fire on it, the Minbari are waiting right there ready to fire back.

[Ted C]

I don't think the warp strafing, while a fine idea, would work terribly well.

Firstly, it's extremely slow in terms of firing rates. One shot per minute, perhaps?

Secondly, we know that B5 tech has a fair number of interceptor type weapons that are designed to shoot down incoming projectiles. Could they handle photon torpedoes heading in? No idea but it'd be worth a shot.

Thirdly, we know that Minbari sensors can really screw around with electronics that are relatively unshielded. I like to assume Minbari sensor sweeps would do much the same to SF tech (which seems to be affected by everything from nebula gas, solar flares and possibly someone sneezing). If a Minbari ship or three sits at a Jump Gate with their sensors continously going, I don't see SF ships being able to target much at all - which leaves them relying on line of sight, which is terrible. And impossible if they're already moving FTL since they'll be past a target by the time they see it if they can't use sensors at all... And if they slow down enough to eyeball the Jump Gate to try to fire on it, the Minbari are waiting right there ready to fire back.

Warp strafing is slow for a single ship, but if you have a small fleet making attack runs in succession, you could inflict damage on a single, immobile target pretty quickly. There's no indication that jump gates are particularly hard to destroy; no civilization in B5 seriously wants to destroy them, to they don't need to be all that tough. Even the Drakh only attacked a few as a terror tactic.

There's so much unknown going on in those scenarios, though. He's going on the observation from his TOS videos that Federation ships can strafe with phasers during a warp speed fly-by. I don't think interceptors could do much about that.

Minbari active sensors did interfere with jump engines in "B5: In the Beginning", but the Minbari ships themselves were visible to the EarthForce ships when doing it. If you try to park cruisers around jump gates to provide jamming, they become targets for warp-strafing themselves. EarthForce ships were able to fire at the Minbari fleet and inflict damage, and the jump engines were apparently the only systems that were seriously affected by the interference.

[Lord Revan]

IIRC it was said outright that the Earthforce ship had gotten close enough to target the mimbari ships manually (aka using mark 1 eyeball) it's at least implied with flashbacks with the gunner who thought he was king Arthur.

in either way if the mimbari stealth works by screwing up or overloading the opponent's sensor systems (and it works from far enough distance), it could make warp strafing impossible since you can't hit what you can't see, but if it works by somehow masking the ships sensor "signature" without capability to extend beond the hull of the ship it's of no consern and warp strafing the gates is possible.

as for warp strafing the cruisers themselves, as said humans in B5 had to use their own eyes to hit the mimbari, which accounted for large part to why the mimbari were so undefeatble, they could target and destroy you from far greater range, in fact we know for certain that only 2 war cruisers were lost the Black Star and a nameless cruiser that got rammed by a nova taking both out, while there possibly is more those are the only ones we know of. So unless the Starfleet ships can detect the mimbari thru the stealth systems strafing the cruisers is just not viable.

[Brian Young]

Finally reset my password.
I'm pretty sure the Minbari stealth doesn't use white noise, because that would alert the enemy to their presence. It would prevent target lock, but think about Lennier attaching his fighter to the Centauri cruiser. A sudden white noise surge would give him away. In short, you can't hide while screaming.
As far as defending the jump gates, we're assuming the Minbari could get to them all and defend them before the beacon system broke down. Destroying the gates closest to Earth would get it started. Probably only a few would cause navigational difficulty. Recall the Vorlons destroyed a gate during a VPK attack, and Ivanova said it was causing a hazard to navigation.
It may not be difficult to take out a gate even when warp strafing. Maybe taking out one rail would do it? But even if it took 30 minutes, it is a matter of time.
Good point about Minbari sensors causing difficulty. But then just warp to an undefended gate. They do put out a beacon, so they would be easy to find.

[Brian Young]

I don't recall any comments about targeting Minbari ships visually. Earthforce ships are windowless, and operate like submarines, dependent on sensors.
In the first contact, they did pick up a silhouette. The stealth mode has different settings. Note they turned it off in Points of Departure so they could be destroyed, and Lennier set to full stealth or something when he was in training.

[Captain Seafort]

As far as defending the jump gates, we're assuming the Minbari could get to them all and defend them before the beacon system broke down. Destroying the gates closest to Earth would get it started. Probably only a few would cause navigational difficulty.

That assumes the gates can be destroyed. How tough are they, relative to UFP firepower?

[Lord Revan]

Finally reset my password.
I'm pretty sure the Minbari stealth doesn't use white noise, because that would alert the enemy to their presence. It would prevent target lock, but think about Lennier attaching his fighter to the Centauri cruiser. A sudden white noise surge would give him away. In short, you can't hide while screaming.

good point, I wasn't in nautical dectection branch during my service so I'm going by what I've read/heard, my service branch was logistics, I was a runner for the regimental HQ boring task (in practice it meant I was a desk clerk/mailman for the HQ) but someone had to do it. it's kind of funny how much there actually is within the term "logistics" even in intelligence can be considered a from of it.

as for your other point I was considering anything less then an hour to "reasonble" time, it's only when it takes so long that when you get back to the ruins of your homeworld(s) that it becomes too long to take out a target via strafing in this case.

[Lord Revan]

correct me if I'm wrong (it's been a while since I watched B5 last time and I don't got on DvD) but hasn't there been at least 1 or 2 fights close enough to a gate that stray shots become an issue?

[Brian Young]

The gates I know of that were destroyed we're by Drakh-controlled Centauri ships, one by the Vorlon fleet, one by Sheridan with the bonehead maneuver, and B5's gate was damaged by an exploding Centauri ship.
Nothing to suggest they are hard to destroy. In fact, just knocking out the beacon would do the trick.
I don't recall any stray shots being an issue. They would be careful to avoid that, as everyone in B5, minus the Shadows, needs it. BTW, for pro-Vorlon guys out there, this is a decisive advantage for the Shadows. But they weren't actually fighting each other, in any normal kind of war.
Revan, good comments about logistics. It is what makes the military go, or companies for that matter.