The origin of stagnation in the 40K universe

[Imperial Overlord]

How does rational thought invite the corrupting predations of the mighty Architect of Fate?

It doesn't, but Tzeentch's domain is ambition, which includes rational planning. He's the Chaos power most able to corrupt and use intellectuals. One can be the Emperor's loyal servant and still end up being used to serve Tzeentch's ends by way of clever planning, foresight, and manipulation. Rational planning makes you vulnerable to Tzeentch the same way enjoying the good things in life makes you vulnerable to Slaanesh and the adrenaline rush of combat makes you vulnerable to Khorne. None of these guarantee corruption, but they are the avenues through which corruption becomes possible.

EDIT: Inquisitors are additional vulnerable because they have dangerous knowledge and ambitious goals, giving Tzeentch more places to sink his hooks in.

[LMSx]

To someone unversed in WH40K, something like

Is it really unnecessary? I thought that failure to comply with it resulted in your tank being possessed by demons and eating you.

is part of the reason why I love reading Warhammer threads, even when I have the dimmest idea of what is actually being discussed. Carry on.

[white_rabbit]

The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!

Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?

Ultimately you could say that, however as a whole, the Inquisition can be extremely pragmatic and practical, as well as a bunch of raving loonies with the might of the Imperium at their beck and call.

Hence crazed genius level programmers who worship tzeentch get a slight extension in life to design fiendishly capable hacking programmes and shite like that.

[Shadowtraveler]

So what is the Inquistion's view of Occam's Razor?

Depends. While sometimes an inquisitor may seem paranoid and grasping at straws, they have every right to be. Chaos cultists are above all patient, and will wait decades if not centuries for the exact moment to strike. The Helican Schism (in which dozens of cults across the Helican sub-sector caused as much destruction as possible, including destroying a hive city and taking over part of the sub-sector's battlefleet, all to distract the Inquisition so one guy can find a magic Chaos book) is proof enough of this.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's lots of sources that credit the AdMech with actually doing some R&D of their own - but they also do a healthy dose of reverse enginerring any DAoT huuman tech they find (and in some cases, xenos tech such as their hardon for the Necrons.)

They aren't unfamilia with logic or the scientific method, either. It might be corrupted in some ways, but they at least know enough of it to do the stuff thy do know. I suspect that alot of the ritual you see in the Admech (as I've said before) is mainly for show and only certain segments (mainly the lower segments, some of the magos, and probably the crazy higher ups) are of the "blind, obedient adherent" type. By and large the pomp would seem to be their way of maintaining the stranglehold on technology (They HAVE to appear to be the only ones capable of handling tech - its really the only thing they got going for them, since for the most part they are total assholes. And that's also why they'll kill people or planets to protect their monopoly.)

If anything gives the appearance of stagnation its the fact the AdMech plays very close with technology as a rule. If the Admech shared alot of the neat stuff they had rather than hoarding it, the Imperium would be alot more badass than it is. Instead, most of the best technology is reseved for the AdMech itself, and the remaining tech just sorta trickles down.

Edit: as far as ambition and Chaos corruption go, that is a more slow, complicated, and subtle process. Someone doesn't have thoughts of ambition and "ploop!" turn into some tentacle rape monster. THat's more along the lines of possession. Usuually someone who is corrupted to Chaos has a cerrtain combination of characteristics (aslo what we can probably describe a being "bad guys", "psychopaths/perverts/freaks" or whatever) that lead to them being corrupted in that manner.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is it really unnecessary? I thought that failure to comply with it resulted in your tank being possessed by demons and eating you.

Some machines can be. This seems to be reserved more for the "thinking machine" types - the artitficial intelligencees (or "machine spirits".) Otherwise the tech isn't so much "possessed" as infused (which can be just as dangerous, since it carries a taint that can infect others in nasty ways.)
The fact that alot of 40K tech deals heavily with the warp (warp engines, mind impulse links. plasma reactors, etc.) would also make harsh controls important - the warp IS dangerous and risky, and just like psykers teh technology can be a potential means of Chaos-fuckery. Deliberately limiting the odds of someone fiddling around with something they may not understand limits the ability of the average person to fuck things up royally.

There could be more to it though, of course. The religious trappings, amusing as they can be as a joke, may actually have some benefit in 40K. Reemmber that, deep down, 40K is basically "Fantasy with science added" to but it very crudely. To the Imperium, "magic" and the supernatural exist, and while it is frowned upon, it can also be utilized in varying degrees. Virtually all 40K humans have at least some connection to the warp, and this would also suggest they have at least some limited ability to maniuplate it, even if unconsciously. (think. of it as "luck") One effective way to channel this is via ritual and religion.

With this "ability" a person's wepaon might just be ab it more deadly (maybe the weapon is made to operate more efficiently psychically or something, or its aim is accruate enough to hit a vital spot.) as well as enhancing physical abilities (IE strength or endurance) or mental ones (bravery, resistancec to corruption, etc.) Its not farfetched in the 40K galaxy to consider that any object might be temporarily imbued or "enchanted" to behave better, since "magical" weapons do exist after a fashion/

In a way, this is probably just an extension of the Cult of the Emperor thing - the Emperor's power I suspect, like the Chaos gods, gets a huge boost from religious belief, which is why he's so powerful (he has more worshippers for the most parrt.) Alot of the Emperor's "blessings" or "miracles", or at least the small stuff, could be seen as manifestations of belief tweaking latent psychic abilities (this would save the Emperor a grerat deal of micromanaging as well.)

As a side note, ritual can be a very good way to instill rote-learning in people without explanation about how it works. For alot of Imperium tech this would suffice (like lasguns or such) - the fact the technology is modular helps too. In a way its kinda like the instruction manuals for alot of modern electronics. It tells you how to operate or even maintain something, but it doesn't tell you how it works (you dont need to know the fundamental principles of a computer to operate one or even install components.)

(Note that I am nto saying every lasgun in the hands of a Guardsman or the bolter in the hands of an Astartes/Sororitas is going to be a magical weapon - rather what I am saying is that they might be enhanced. We know psykers can interfere with technology to make it malfunction or go haywire, so the opposite - making it function better - should also be possible.)

[NecronLord]

I think the best analogy to the way the adeptus mechanicus understand their rituals is to compare it to the way a lot of us are likely wont to shout at malfunctioning computers or cars, even though we know that it does no good. The mechanicus do understand what the machines do, with the exception of the most rare and complicated devices. However, they also have a strictly codified religious reverence towards them. They understand that a cogitator may be a pile of wires and transistors, but will still personify it as a spirit.

[Archaic`]

We know psykers can interfere with technology to make it malfunction or go haywire, so the opposite - making it function better - should also be possible.)

There's plenty of examples of this with Ork weapons and tech in particular. For Orks, "red wunz" really do "go fasta".

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe the layman AdMech goon we see toying around and tooling while reciting hymns and poems is a totally ignorant dick.

Kind of like in Asimov's Foundation, where the scientists taught the smartest barbarians how to maintain nuclear power through religion. The scientists kept the knowledge to themselves, while becoming popes and bishops to ignorant barbarian "technopriests".

This could be a way for the AdMech elite to ensure compliance amongst their followers. Who's to say that the AdMech doesn't do dickery within its own organization? The TechPriests would be as ignorant as the layman, while the Electrobishops and MechaCardinals have the real knowledge.

[Lancer]

For a decent (but rather short) look at the AdMech as an organization rather than just the face they present to outsiders, read the story Deus Ex Mechanicus in Let the Galaxy Burn. For the most part, they have access to custom-manufactured equipment and are knowledgable enough to cobble together solutions when faced with duress.

[Shadowtraveler]

Is it possible that the Imperium/Mechanicus have reached some sort of Foundation-esque slump where the technology doesn't improve simply due to a lack of motivation to?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Is it possible that the Imperium/Mechanicus have reached some sort of Foundation-esque slump where the technology doesn't improve simply due to a lack of motivation to?

No, since we see that the second or third most powerful organization in the Imperium is maniacally focused on improving their technology, and we have proof that further technological gains abide (Dark age human tech, & Terra being moved). They have not reached a point of dramatically diminishing returns, although regaining god-tech with an uneven technological base and a pitiful Unified research base (everyone working on his own, and the compartmentalized nature of most important things in the Imperium as a whole for safety reasons) keeps them from advancing very quickly.

It's quite possible that the DaoT also used rudimentary AI's even after the stone & Iron men rebbelions, but the Imperium has totally inert computers that while powerful can't, say, design a better plasma-pistol on their own .

[NecronLord]

For a decent (but rather short) look at the AdMech as an organization rather than just the face they present to outsiders, read the story Deus Ex Mechanicus in Let the Galaxy Burn. For the most part, they have access to custom-manufactured equipment and are knowledgable enough to cobble together solutions when faced with duress.

The guy who designed the custom equipment was The God of All Necrons, I hardly think that counts.

Though Lakius was a fine example of the more sane techpriests, especially 'let's not tell anyone.'

[andrewgpaul]

A spirit of experimentation isn't solely the preserve of the Mechaicus; the Space Marines aren't afraid to modify their equipment if need be, with or without the Mechanicus' blessing. Look at the Predator Annihilator and Land Raider Crusader, for example.

[Peptuck]

There's also plenty of low-level, individual modification going on, e.g. Larkin's adjusting his scope in non-Mechanicus-approved ways in Straight Silver.

[Lost Soal]

For a decent (but rather short) look at the AdMech as an organization rather than just the face they present to outsiders, read the story Deus Ex Mechanicus in Let the Galaxy Burn. For the most part, they have access to custom-manufactured equipment and are knowledgable enough to cobble together solutions when faced with duress.

The guy who designed the custom equipment was The God of All Necrons, I hardly think that counts.

Though Lakius was a fine example of the more sane techpriests, especially 'let's not tell anyone.'

I think he's referring to the cobbled together stasis field which he put together in minutes.
Another example of Techpriests actually knowing how stuff works is in Soul Drinkers. The low level tech priest is able to bypass the gene scanner on the Soul Spear which is far more sophisticated than any current gene lock in use. That wouldn't be possible if all tech priests did was rote learn assembly instructions.

[JGregory32]

I remeber reading Dan Abnett's "Gaunt's Ghosts" series and thinking that one of the reasons for the long techpriests rituals was the amount of security built into devices. If a device dosen't function without several passwords than the easiest way to remember them is through rote learning or chanting them under your breath and you enter them.

When you realize that not only do you have to worry about demons and psykers messing with your devices but people who have no idea how something works then a large amount of security becomes not only necessary but essential.

[Chris OFarrell]

You know, you have to wonder. IF the Imperium, through an act of plot, somehow had the AddMech open up, the various power structures working together and not apart, with a little help to upgrade various forge worlds to produce the top of the line Imeperial tech, what the Imperium would be able to do?

I mean instead of the average guard regiment having T-Shirts and flashlights, if they were armed equivilant to contemporary Guard stormtroopers. And the stormtroopers were armed another order above that and so on. I mean if the Imperium could mass produce stuff like hovertanks, non overheating plasma weapons, state of the art capital ships and orbital defenses, all that kind of stuff...what that would do to some of the campaigns they have to fight, like the next time Abbadon comes a knocking or something...

[Uraniun235]

Well of course this would occur just in time for a new Tyranid swarm, or an all-out Chaos campaign, or a massive Ork waaagh... ensuring, of course, that the ever-precious status quo is maintained in the 40K galaxy.

[White Haven]

Here's the trick...why is Chaos such a threat now? In large part because the Imperium gave them Space Marines. Any new armaments or armour or shielding or titans or whatever that the Imperium puts into service will eventually trickle down to Chaos, thus destabilizing the shaky balance of power. Yes, the Xeno threat will be marginalized, but Chaos will become more effective against them as well, and Chaos isn't called the Archenemy for nothing.

In addition, look at the compartmentalization of the AdMech as something akin to the sectioning of Legions into Chapters. It's a lot harder for an infection of heresy within the Mechanicus to spread, because it's not one unified body. Half the Mechanicus sided with Horus, and if that were to happen again, given it shaky hold on technology, the Imperium would likely not survive.

[Zablorg]

The same as the early medieval period:

She's a witch! Burn the Witch!

Isn't that the inquisition's bog-standard answer to just about everything?

Moreover: is this out of necessity (i.e. thinking in an intelligent fashion = guaranteed corruption by Tzeentch), or has the Inquisition just gotten full of nutcases?

I wasn't aware you could become corrupted by anything unless you made connection with the warp in some way. Or don't they want you to take that chance?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I wasn't aware you could become corrupted by anything unless you made connection with the warp in some way. Or don't they want you to take that chance?

Just about any emotion is a reflection in the warp, if I am not wrong.

[Zablorg]

So gods can have an influence outside the warp without any chaos rituals?

It might simply be that the place where they got the first Mechanicus from were religious nuts, and thus their predecessors were. I can't remember if the Emperor was very much involved in its creation, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he would preferred such important people to be religious nuts.

[Falkenhayn]

Well of course this would occur just in time for a new Tyranid swarm, or an all-out Chaos campaign, or a massive Ork waaagh... ensuring, of course, that the ever-precious status quo is maintained in the 40K galaxy.

You're talking about the good old days of 40k. Back before GW told us that the IoM is pretty much a sockpuppet for the Necrons or Hive Fleet Leviathan is going to do to the milky way what the Soviet Union did to Finland.

There's a part of me that wants to say it's so the Administratum can keeps its books straight. It's much easier to assess the value of a sector to the IoM as a whole when you know to a very high degree of precision what its capable of producing for centuries at a stretch. It's also that much easier to assign a force level to it to suppress rebellion when they break out. This is also very easy to enforce when you effectively control the planetary, sub-sector and sector tax/tithe/levy rate, and your hatchetmen audit the rule of the planetary nobility.

In the event of an invasion or a rebellion, certain criteria must be met for the attack to register on higher levels of administration (Codex: IG). AKA, your boss gets to decide if your ass is worth saving 1. immediately, 2. after a fashion, 3 at all. This strategy makes more sense if he can easily predict your future and present worth from dependable data trends, and even more so when those trends haven't changed in a couple millennia.

[Bedlam]

You have got to love/hate a setting where your whole world can be left to burn due to bureaucracy