Storm of Iron: Analysis and Discussion thread

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Post by NecronLord »

Lone_Prodigy wrote:Well fuck me sideways. Was the Ork unconscious at the time?
You could say that. It was dead. However, the book is also quite explicit in that the resonance activity remains in the live cells that Darvus tested it on. It's not a brain thing, but a cellular thing. Most important of all, the use of 2,4d corrupts the spores. Darvus tests it by applying it to dead flesh, studying that under a microscope, and letting spores develop. The spores that develop after a 2,4d application are not viable orkoids, but rather, grossly malformed. 'untidy structures, lopsided and tumorous: wretched amalgams of orkoid species.' Use hollowpoint rounds with this stuff loaded into them, and part of the next generation of orks will probably be stillborn.

It's interesting that they're in a visible state like that after only an hour, though doubtless Darvus put them in ideal conditions.
The Old Ones could've decided to use the Orkz' latent psychic powers to protect them from such stuff. After all, humie gas can't hurt da boyz!
Unless the 'Brain Boys' were capable of such a thing, I don't see how that would work. I've seen nothing to suggest that th modern orks have special resistance to enviromental effects, beyond 'nigh-immune to cold.'

Interestingly they respire thusly:
Magos Biologis Sharle Darvus wrote:Upper Cavity. Thick spongy mass between scapula, vertebrae (inflexible, hunched) and sternum. Distinct organs suggest pulmonary musculature (blood is chlorophyll-rich protein and carbon-copper [trace] compound, containing countless distinct fungal organisms) and dense vegetative 'gills' (cf. terran 'mushroom' archeosamples - osmotic oxygen absorption).
Given the existance of a sternum, they clearly breathe in and out, but their lungs appear radically different to our own aeveolal structure.
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Post by Cykeisme »

What? So this massive galactic threat that everyone rants and raves about can be stopped through the application of an easily manufactured industrial defoliant?

Great.
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Post by SirNitram »

[R_H] wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote: And it has the Obliterator virus. I once toyed with the ideao f the Obliterator virus being used on small Tyranids, but this one is around two kilometres long.

And it has the Obliterator virus. It could sprout Nova cannons. Holy shit.
What's the Obliterator virus?
A Warp-virus that's usually found in Chaos Marines, fusing their armour, weapons, body, and a Daemon into one horrifying whole. When fully infected, the Obliterator can literally turn his mass into any weapon he needs, and have it erupt from the diseased flesh of his body.
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Post by NecronLord »

Cykeisme wrote:What? So this massive galactic threat that everyone rants and raves about can be stopped through the application of an easily manufactured industrial defoliant?

Great.
Yeah. You were taking Orks seriously? Even though they're a spacegoing charicature of soccer hooligans? They have a slave race who do most of their industrial work, are more intelligent than they are, and capable of rebellion, who don't just kill them. Orks are a threat through sheer numbers; the fact that we could in theory construct a viable weapon against them wouldn't stop them coming from the countless ork worlds by the billion and stomping us.

I should note that such information is not in the Imperium's hands, and is an example of how the application of the scientific method (hey, there's a hypothesis, let's test it) on a simple scale could make them more formidable. It's not standard practice, as the guy that discovered it works for the Necrons.

Nor is it a miracle cure (Darvus even says as much) you still need to win the battles. It's just that this would make mundane bullets have the stopping power of a lasgun. It's a viable infantry level response. I don't fancy taking on Gargants with weedkiller hollowpoints, though.
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Post by Cykeisme »

How about blanketing entire battlefields with the stuff? Better than Exterminatus.

Too bad we've also established that Orks no longer evolve, or else I envision the boyz developing a resistance after a couple of generations of exposure, and using tankards of the stuff to get drunk .
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

NecronLord wrote: Evidently not a priority. Observe that they don't instinctually make gas masks, either. Would you hesitate to use nerve gas on Orks? I doubt the Necrontyr, let alone the C'tan, would do so either.
YEs, but as I remember, one of the armageddon novels had a big plotline wher they retrieved some highly specialized anti-ork chemical warfare agent to use against them. I remember it being a big deal because the Orks were somehow hard to chem-fuck or something like that. I'll go dig it out or something.

Be rather odd if all it took were some usual defoliant to kill them off. Armageddon does have a fuckload of jungle after all :P
Lone_Prodigy wrote:In Xenology some Imperium weedkillers seriously fuck up an Ork. OTOH, considering the W40k universe, those weedkillers were probably Catachan-grade bio-napalm.
The full chemical name is given. Dichlorophenoxy acetic acid.
Yes, but this IS 40K. I've seen the "name game" played more than once (and in very bizarre ways). "fusion" is one. "plasma" another. :P
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Post by NecronLord »

Connor MacLeod wrote:YEs, but as I remember, one of the armageddon novels had a big plotline wher they retrieved some highly specialized anti-ork chemical warfare agent to use against them. I remember it being a big deal because the Orks were somehow hard to chem-fuck or something like that. I'll go dig it out or something.

Be rather odd if all it took were some usual defoliant to kill them off. Armageddon does have a fuckload of jungle after all :P
You've still got to get air superiority or such in order to deploy it.

Yes, but this IS 40K. I've seen the "name game" played more than once (and in very bizarre ways). "fusion" is one. "plasma" another. :P
Uhuh. Can we throw out 'speed of light' and 'watt' as having different values while we're at it? :P
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

NecronLord wrote:You've still got to get air superiority or such in order to deploy it.

Why would you be unable to deploy it via artillery shell, rockets, or grenade launcher? Or even orbit-dropped munitions like virus warheads are? I mean, they can do most of that for regular "anti plant" munitions and the stuff. They can even do it for propoganda fliers. I doubt weedkiller would be that difficult to rig. you yourself pointed to "weed killer" ammo after all.

Moreover, that doesn't really explain why grabbing a big "ork specific" biowarfare weapon was such a big deal during Third Armageddon if you could fuck them over with simple weedkiller. The ACG deployed a specific Storm Trooper squad to recover it, as I recall. (and the Inquisition was involved as well in some way.)
Uhuh. Can we throw out 'speed of light' and 'watt' as having different values while we're at it? :P
Only if you can come up with a good justification. (not that I'd be surprised if someone had tried claiming it.)
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Post by NecronLord »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Why would you be unable to deploy it via artillery shell, rockets, or grenade launcher? Or even orbit-dropped munitions like virus warheads are? I mean, they can do most of that for regular "anti plant" munitions and the stuff. They can even do it for propoganda fliers. I doubt weedkiller would be that difficult to rig. you yourself pointed to "weed killer" ammo after all.
Very well. Air supeiority, or general military superiority. High explosive bombs or artillery, or maybe their mundane acidic variants, would be about as effective on ork units (especially given that it makes a loud bang) as the herbicide would be. The herbicide is more effective than what they're using in that it prevents re-sporing, but other than that, they already kill orks just fine.
Moreover, that doesn't really explain why grabbing a big "ork specific" biowarfare weapon was such a big deal during Third Armageddon if you could fuck them over with simple weedkiller. The ACG deployed a specific Storm Trooper squad to recover it, as I recall. (and the Inquisition was involved as well in some way.)
The Imperium of Man does not know that a simple weedkiller would have that effect. They have at best a stunted version of the scientific method, and would not (at the mechanicus/munitorum level) come up with such an idea. In order for it to be a viable weapon, first someone would have to discover its effects on orks (not that unreasonable, I suppose. Some peasant could try throwing a can of it at an ork some time) and then it must be reported to the relevant authorities, and then make the jump from 'academia' to the Munitorum.

Darvus was only inspired to do it after carrying out 'forbidden' analyses of his (originally) living specimens after all.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Sorry for the delay, holidays and whatnot. (and having a buttload of mateiral to prepare to put on the site as well.)
NecronLord wrote: The Imperium of Man does not know that a simple weedkiller would have that effect. They have at best a stunted version of the scientific method, and would not (at the mechanicus/munitorum level) come up with such an idea.
In order for it to be a viable weapon, first someone would have to discover its effects on orks (not that unreasonable, I suppose. Some peasant could try throwing a can of it at an ork some time) and then it must be reported to the relevant authorities, and then make the jump from 'academia' to the Munitorum.
Which I can largely agree with for the current Imperium, and AdMech... but why would I believe that this has been the case for 10,000+ years or more? Why would I believe that such ignorance persisted in the time of the Emperor and his crusades? Why would I believe "allied" folks like the Squats were likewise incapable of devising such means (even though they LOATHED the orks and weren't anywhere near as stunted as the AdMech is.)

I can even extend this logic far further. If we do assume that the weedkiller did as advertised, why would it be ONLY that one, specific kind? I don't admit to be an expert on herbicides, but just googling around I can see that 2,4d is older but not among hte most effective. So I would fail to see why other herbicides would not be just as effective if not moreso. And this assumes that they haven't come up with something even nastier (a death-world grade herbicide, for example.) nevermind your conventional "anti plant" type stuff. And givne the rather "standardized" approach of Imperial technology despite the extreme diversity of its enviroments/ecosystems, I'd imagine that any "herbicide/defoliants" they used would also be standardized in the sense of acting very "Broadly", which only tends to reinforce the point, IMHO.

And that doesn't even discount the possibility of the orks just running across the stuff and unknowingly releasing it and fucking themselves up. I can see them doing that.
Darvus was only inspired to do it after carrying out 'forbidden' analyses of his (originally) living specimens after all.
Uh, and an Inquisitor is incapable of manipulating things so that this little fact "accidentally" came to light? Assuming, that is, he wasn't one of those who would sacrifice themselves for the good of the Imperium (they do exist, as I remember.) Inquisitors do forbidden things rather alot I've noticed in the novels (not just Eisenhorn, or Ravenor, but someone like Horst from Shadow Point, or Thaddeus from the Counter novels... hell why not even Jaq Draco?) and get away with it.

To borrow your own words, you said "Some peasant could try throwing a can of it at an ork some time) and then it must be reported to the relevant authorities," - some Inquisitor could have just "accidentally" come across such a thing occuring. Hell, call it a "sign of divine inspiration from the Almighty Emperor" and they'd probably gobble it up. Its not as if the Inquisition hasn't fooled anyone before (or a Rogue Inquisitor, ,for that matter.)

On top of that, you just got done telling me the institutions of the Imperium are not the most "scientific" of the lot - if we hold that to be mostly true, what are the odds then that we can believe this guy even knows the proper materials. (It brings to mind the whole "conventional steel" argument WRT to 40K tanks, IMHO.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Sorry for the delay, I decided to take a long hiatus over the vacation weekend (for the U.S. at least.) and I got board. I was also occupied with the munitorum manual (which seems appropriate, given the uathor of this book and that are the same.)

This time around we're dealing with artillery, including the original "basilisk crater" calc from long long ago in the infamous "Imperium vs GE" thread of the Fucking Huge Size. It also covers various other aspects of artillery (and htus probably of other vehicles such as Russes) and would probably put Abnett to shame (a little.)


Page 72

- the prisoners are assembled over a kilometer from the Tor Christo bastion, at least according to the eyeball estimate of a captured Jouran.

Page 73
Gunner First Class Dervlan Chu watched the approaching line of vehicles through the gunsight of his Basilisk artillery piece...
...

The image was grainy and static interference washed though the sight,...
Jouran Basilisk artillery has a fairly sophisticaed gunsight.

Page 74
.
- Jouran Basilisks fire meter-long shells. If we assume this 155mm shell (or we can go with this eight inch shell, we can work out the length/width ratio should be between 5:1 and 6:1 This would make the Basilisk between 167 mm and 200 mm (or roughly between 6.5 inch and 8 inch guns.) This is considerably larger than the 125-132mm calibre given in the Forgeworld supplements.

Curiously, it is said that the enemy tracked vehicles/APCs (the ones holding the prisoners) were not yet in range, even though they were within a kilometer of the base. Unless they were referring to direct fire range. WE know Basislisks can be employed as assault guns.

Page 74
Chu swivelled on his gun-chair to watch the senior officers of the Christo, together with the omnipresent preists of the Machien God, gathered far behind the guns, consulting an attack logister that was no doubt wired into the gunsights of their artillery pieces.
...
An oil-stained speaker beside Chu hissed and Tedeski's harsh clipped tones announced...
....
Chu smiled and returned to his gunisght, watching the range counter unwined as the enemy approached.
The targeting systems of all the basilisks are all linked by some sort of combat computer

Page 75

- Honsou reveals something of his motivations here as to his alliegance to Chaos. He sees the Imperium as evil, the Imperium false and harmful to humanity (same with the "corpse God" Emperor) Only, he thinks, the Chaos Gods offer any chance of unity and strength to resist the Tyranids, ,orks or the Necrons. The Imperium, by contrast, speeded the destruction of humanity by resisting Chaos. He considers it a "great work" to do what he does.

I guess this is a case where the side of Chaos doesn't appear "All bad",but having read enough of this book and Honsou and other Chaos folk, I have to think that this is probably a hypocrtiical stance to hold.

Page 77
A single bolt from his weapon [bolter] blasting the man's entire torso away.
Another instance of a bolter exploding a guy's torso.

Page 77
Dervlan Chu pressed the firing stud on the armanet panel and closed his eyes as the Basilisk fired. The massive barrel's recoil pushed almost its entire length into the track unit, the crack of the shell's discharge easily penetrating the ear protectors he wore. Despite the bolted locking clamps, teh track unit rocked under the force of the recoil.
indication of the recoil possessed by the Basilisk. One presumes that if the thing weren't bolted down it would flip over. Both that, and the fact that the gun has a recoil length far greater than most modern weapons would suggest its own recoil is considerably (many times) greater than modern artillery. Given the mass of a basilisk is around 35-40 tons, I'd imagine the thing easily generates at least several times its mass in recoil.

If we assume roughly an 6-8 inch shell (between 45-80 kg roughly) at the stated velocity (in more recent Forgeworld sources), the recoil would be consistent with the above conjecture.

Page 77
He pressed an eye to the gunsight, checking to see how much the recoil had caused the barrel to drift from its aiming position. Not much, he saw, spinning the correction wheel, bringing the aiming reticle back to centre and adjsuting fire for the next shot.
More capabilities of the basilisk's computerized targeting gear.

Page 77
Their first shell hadn't even impacted yet and they were ready to fire again.
Indication of rate of fire of a basilisk. The probable loading times (by hand) as well as the probable range/velocity in this case (which seems to be basically direct fire) would seem to indicate a matter of seconds, tops.

Page 78
The ground whipped upwards, tossing her through the air as the first Basilisk shell impacted, blasting a crater fifteen metres across and obliterating a dozen men in an instant.
..
Scraps of flesh and bone spattered the interior surface of the crater, the stench of scorched human meat and burning propellant filling her notrils.
Going by the ADC, putting a 15 meter diameter crater in the ground would require at least .6 tons of TNT. (though going by 1/2 the "igneous rock" entry it is 1.7 tons. I generally trust the cratering calculator to be more accuate here, however.)

If the shell weighs as much as a 6 to eight in chs hell (around 40-90 kg, depending on size), the energy density of Imperial explosives would be between 30 and 60 MJ per kg, assuming the shell was entirely of explosive. This does not seem likely, howver. going by the stats on a 155mm HE projectile

here we could infer roughly 1/4 the mass of the projectile is TNT. Thus the actual figure could be several times greater (3-4x greater seems likely.) This would put the energy density of the explosives at or greater than hydrogen.

Page 80
The attack had been stopped in its tracks before it had covered even half the distance to the Christo.
The attack only covered 500 meters before being "halted". Assuming a leisurely 30 km/hr for the vehicles, the bombardment lasted no more than a minute.

Page 81
He switched up a level of magnification as the smoke cleared still further and saw more vehicels through the haze.
...
He pressed the range finder button on the armament panel and cursed as he realized the APCS and the warrios standing before them were some hundred meters beyond the maximum range of his gun. As he increased the magnification another level...
Basilisks have magnification and laser rangefinders.
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Post by Teleros »

Jouran Basilisks fire meter-long shells. If we assume this 155mm shell (or we can go with this eight inch shell, we can work out the length/width ratio should be between 5:1 and 6:1 This would make the Basilisk between 167 mm and 200 mm (or roughly between 6.5 inch and 8 inch guns.) This is considerably larger than the 125-132mm calibre given in the Forgeworld supplements.
I wonder if we could get any indication of size from the actual shell models you can get? Take the Vanaheim pattern Basilisk here for example. No pics of the crew but there are plenty of them around the place... be interesting to see how they compare in terms of size though.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Bigger update this time given the delay, but it may be awhile before I post again. I've got way too much on my plate ATM to bother with this and other things.

Page 82

- Honsou's autosenses can easily pierce fog and gunsmoke.
Additionally, the Iron warrios in "seconds" cut down the survivors of the troop rather easily. Given the ranges implied before (the survivors are about 500 meters away, having started out a kilometer awaY) we can estimate both a rough range of ~500-600 meters. It also implies it takes roughly a second or two for the bolt rounds to cover that distance, implying at least 300-400 m/s muzzle velocities, but probably closer to 500-600 m/s or more (given that they're cutting down more than one person, and the shells need time to detonate.)

PAge 84
- Honsou's armour has night vision capabilities.

Page 85

- Auto senses can detect/locate buried mines.

PAge 86
Honsou was less than two hundred metres from the base of the rocky promontory that Tor Chirsto sat upon. Already his reconnisance was bearing fruit. Ahead he could see three concealed artillery pits carved into the base of the hill.
This gives us an idea of the approximate range they get to before being spotted, which will of course be important shortly.

Page 88

- Iron warrior healing mechanisms can stem the flow of blood from a severed leg in seconds. Presumably this is the Larraman organ in action, though it might be Chaos influenced.

Page 89
More sunflares exploded overhead and now small arms fire began bursting around them. Las-bolts vitrified the dust and heavy bolters churned the ground. He felt an impact graze his shoulder and another clip his thigh, but these were little but annoyances; his armour was proof against such weaponry.

Heavier impacts blasted into the ground beside him and he swore again as he realised that the defenders had managed to bring some heavy weaponry up to the firing step. A bolt from a lascannon hammered into the ground beside him, cracking the earth and flashing the dust to vapour.
Las-weapon fire and otehr weapons (Heavy bolters) are striking out. given the range above, its roughly... 200 meters or so. Honsou also thinks his armour is proof against the las weapons/small arms fire as well as the heavy bolters (implied.)

Lascannon also cracks/pulverizes as well as partially vaporizes the ground. No idea to power output though, so no real way to calc it. Regular lasbolts are melting the gorund too.

Page 89
More shells landed and this time Honsou was thrown to the ground as a mortar shell burst less than five metres directly above him, spraying him with razor sharp shrapnel.
...
Power armour was amongst the best protection a warrior could have, but even it had its limitations.
The reason he'd survived was because a marine atop him had tken the brunt of the blast. Space Marine power armour cannot survive the close range detonattion of a medium/heavy mortar shell.

Assuming it is a 120mm mortar being used, and that it is half full of explosive (seems likely), we're probably talking about 30-40 MJ of TNT at least. At 5 meters distance, the Space Marine armour would probably absorb a substantial portion of that (no more than half, but probably more than 1/6th. Since this is largely in the form of shrapnel, its a high velocity kinetic impact. Its also quite probably an order of magnitude lower than it should be, given probable differences in Imperial explosivs vs real life ones.

Page 97

- the Majority of Chaos Titans engageing in the battle are 20 metres tall. I imagine many of you are aware of this and annoyed at McNeill for this.

Page 98

- though normally aginst AM rules, they will "alter" tech or adapt it to suit desired purposes should the need be sufficiently urgent.

Page 101

- the Destiny Gate of the citadel measured 44 metres high, thirty wide, and each half of the gate is 4 metres thick, weighing hundreds of tonnes. The gates are set within the sixty metre high curtain wall. Assuming "hundreds" is taken literally (200-1000 tons) apiece, the average density of the door is between 76 kg*m^3 and ~400 kg*m^3.

Page 102

- The Demi-legion of titans comprises about a dozen walkers - three Warlords, five Reaver titans, four Warhounds. One imagines a full legion is at least severla times larger. Assuming between 30-40 Titans per legion, and between 5,000-20,000 Forge worlds at a minimum (1 per estimated sector roughly) this suggests at least between 150,000 to 800,000 titans. We can probably say there are many "hundreds of thousands" if not "millions" of titans of all classes.

Page 104

- Warhound titans are less than half the size of Reaver titans.

Page 105

- the enemy line is about a kilometre away, the Titans have. This probably gives us a rough idea of intiial engagement ranges between the Imperial and Chaos sides.

Page 106

- the Jouran tanks and chimeras are able to keep up with the striding speed of the Titans. This tends to suggest a similar potential speed for all concerned (at the WArhound 58 km/hr speed a Chimera can easily keep up, but a Russ ormally wouldn't. These might be special Russes though.)

Page 107

- Iron Warrior gunsights penetrate gunsmoke from artillery bombardment.

Page 107

- tanks running on diesel fuel.

Page 109
He linked his consciousness to the Titan's sensorium, noting that his battle group was moving a little too fast, outpacing the slower tanks of the guard in their haste for battle.
Curiously, the Titans are outpacing the Jourans, which must include the Chimeras as well as the Russes, if onyl a little bit. This tends to suggest Titans move faster than 70 km/hr and that the Russes are moving at around 60-70 km/hr.

Page 110

- the Jouran tanks are firing while on the move, even the Russes.


Page 111
Several of the heavier tanks halted and assumed firing positions, their mighty battle cannons pounding the trench line. The noise was deafening as laser fire, shell fire, and artillery mingled with the bass rumble of straining tank engines.
Some of the "Heavier" tanks actually have to stop before firing it seems. Either thsi is purely tactics, or these tanks weren't firing before when advancing, or if they were firing they weren't firing at "maximum capacity" since a Russ's recoil is arguably enough to knock it off its tracks. In the case of the second option, it would also suggest more than on ekind of combat tank.

Page 111
They were almost there and hundreds of tanks belched smoke from their dispensers to confound the targeting spirits in their enemy's weapons.
Given that we know the Iron Warriors senses allow them to see through gunsmoke and other battlefield obstrtuctions, this probably refers to the "blink" grenade type smoke effects.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

More Titan/combat stuff...

[Page 111
when a shot streaked from a bunker in the center of the traitor line, covering the distance to its target in less than a second. A Leman Russ was slammed sideways as the missile punched through its frontal armour. The superheated core of the missile ignited the vehiciles fuel and cooked off its ammunition, blowing it aparrt in a greasy fireball.
A rocket launched by (presumably) a devastator squad had enough raw momentum (either by the impact or perhaps the warhead) to punch through the armour and knock the tank sideways - even though it was advancing forward. This gives us an idea of the momentum involved in any sort of anti-tank weapon, and corroborates what we know from the Ghosts novels (like Honour Guard, or when Ork Rockets in the Dawn of War Novel do something similar.). The momentum needed to actually knock a 60 ton tank around is many times that of a modern tank round, it goes without saying.

The fact the missile still took a noticable fraction of a second to hit despite being quite fast (supersonic even?) suggests the effective combat range was quite long here - many huhndreds of meters (but still less than a kilometre, of course.)

Page 111

-Chaos Titan weapons blasting tanks to "atoms" with their weapons.

Vaporizing a single Russ would require at least around 450-500 gigajoules minimum assuming composed solely of iron, and its implying multiple weapons destroying multiple tanks.

Page 112

- lascannon fire eaisly penetrates the armour of Jouran chimaeras. Lascannon seem to have better penetration generally due to their higher power/intensity ratings rather than raw output compared to Meltaguns or plasma weapons.

Page 112
He had barely cleared the ramp when a missile ripped through the side of the Chimaera. with the rear ramp open, much of the force of the epxlosion was vented outwards, but still the tank was lifted into the air by the blast.
Rocket penetrates the Chimera (presumably by force/pressure or some sort of shaped chage.) The actual warhead causes an explosion that is powerful enough to hurl a 40 ton tank some distance into the air, yet the vehicle remains largely intact (rather than, say, blasting apart into shrapnel.)

Page 113

- again Jouran tanks manuvering while firing.

Page 119
Gunfire reached out to them, instantly cutting a swathe of Guardsmen down and scattering the rest.
...
They fired their lasguns and grenade launchers, but the range was too great.
...

despite the tiny impact Leonid's command squad had on the traitor line, the effect on the Imperial troops was electric.
Unknown weaponry from the enemy lines (either the bolt action rifles or Space Marine bolters) seem to have greater range than either the Jouran lasguns or grenade launchers, at least in these circumstances. The range difference is not very great, however, since the Jourans do (as noted) score some hits very shortly after their own men are cut down and they continue firing on the next page.

Given modern grenade launchers, the effective range could be easily at least 300-400 meters. Also, since we know that the officer is also shortly hit by a gun round, ,its likely that we're not talking bolters, but the "bolt action rifles" mentioned later (which suggests around at least 400-600 meter range, up to 800 meters depending on targts and circumstancecs.)

Page 121
A giant fist smashed him in the chest.
He fell, ,fighting for breath, his vision cartwheeling.
The ground rushed up to meet him and slammed into his face, hot and solid.
Jouran officer is hit by gunfire. More is specified later.

Page 122
"You got yourself shot sir,"
...
"You were ahead of everyone else and took a round to the chest. Good thing you had your flak jacket on underneath your breastplate, eh? Still, you're going to have a hell of a bruise, sir."
...

.."I think you caught it in the solar plexus."
Flak jacket protected the Jouran officer against enemy gunfire at close range (the Jourans are charging). As we learn later, the Chaos troops are using bolt action rifles, which suggests something vey high calibre (7.62mm or higher)

By comparison, we should note that modern body armour of similar magnitude would qualify as class 3 or 4 , under the "Test summary" chart in the link above.

Note that Interceptor armor is designed to provide protection that would be that well (up to 3 7.62x51mm NATO hits), but does need the solid plates to provide that level of protection. Presumably flak with inserts (as mentioned in other sourcecs and novels) would be at least similarily protective (if not moreso.)

Page 126'
- Warhound titan princeps is concerned about enemy tanks

Page 127

- Land Raider lascannon (at least two) brings down void shields on a Warhound Titan of undetermined state. No exact stats, but it would suggest Land raider's lascannon are considerably more powerful than Guard tanks or man-portable lascannon (possibly TJ range, but certainly at least triple digit GJ)

Page 128

- Mind-impulse link in titans transmit pain from the titan's damage to the pilot/Princeps.

Page 128

- superheated vapour/coolant steam from plasma annihlator vaporises 100 men. This would be at least 20 gigajoules from the coolant alone.

Page 129
Incandescent fire [Hellstorm cannon] erupted from the weapon, explosive shells bursting at point-blank range against his already damaged leg. The joint exploded, the metal running molten like mercurial blood down the war machine's leg. Fierarch screamed as he felt his Titan's pain as his own, the feedback along the mind impulse unit frying much of his cerebral cortex.
If I knew the exact dimensions of a Titan's legs, I might be able to estimate the damage done to the joint, assuming iron. Assuming that the legs make up half the height, and that the leg has similar dimensions to a human leg (say a width ~ 1/5 the height of the leg itself) then the legs would be about 5 meters wide and maybe about that "thick" Assuming a roughly 5 meter diameter area affected, we're talking about 517,400 kg of iron affected. Melting it would require ~620 gigajoules dleivered over an unknown (but presumably short) timeframe, lower limit.

It is also worth noting that the Titan operators feel pain via mind impulse link feedback (which seems a liability along the same lines as it is for Shadow ships.)

Page 132 -

- the Iron Warrior's human troops are firing "crude, bolt-action rifles" Again notice that this suggests fairly high calibre, long-range weaponry.

For referencec check the modern firearms site and look at various bolt action rifles listed there. Many of them feature rounds equal to or more powerful than modern assault rifles.

Page 134
More bullets filled the air and the main gun fired with an ear-splitting crack, followed seconds later by a distant explosion.
Leman Russ tank variant used by Chaos troops can fire a projectile that covers at least "several seconds" range. Depending on how you want to work it, you could either use it to derive range from velocity or velocity from range.

Note that "seconds" probably means only a couple seconds (2-3 seconds at least, but no more than say 10-15 seconds), given that the guy listening is sitting in the midst of a active battlefield and is within firing range of the fank (albeit behind it.) If we assume roughly a 4-5 km range (which I belive is upper limit range for modern MBTs, and is indicated by novels like Necropolis, the velocity, velocity would be between 1.3 and 1.7 km/s roughly (about what a modern saboted kinetic kill projectile achieves, IIRC.)

If we assume a minimum velocity of around 800-1000 m/s (about where a Artillery cannon is for muzzle velocity, and we know that the Basilisk is included here.), the range is between 2-3 km minimum.

Page 135
Leonid screamed himself hoarse at the triators within, skidding to a halt less than ten metres from the rear of the tank and raising Corde's plasma gun.

He squeezed the trigger twice in quick succession, sending bolts of white-hot plasma energy towards the tank. The shots impacted squarely on the thin rear armour and punched through it easily, instantaneosuly igniting the tanks' fuel and ammo. The tank exploded in a red fireball, the turret buckling from the pressure of internal detonations. The shockwave swatted Leonid down, his chest scearing in pain as he fell.
..
He swung the plasma gun up, but it was still recharging.
Plasma cannon is able to fire off two shots in rapid succession, and has at least that many shots (probably more.before needing reloading. The shots are powerful enough to penetrate the rear armour of a Russ.
Last edited by Connor MacLeod on 2008-01-29 02:52am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Well, these will be the last series of updates prior to the new year. Almost done with this novel.... Happy New Year all and enjoy the update...

Page 146-147
For six centruies, Amatheon had been linked to the beating heart of the citadel, monitoring every facet of its operation and that of the cavernous laboratorium hidden beneath it. For the last century of that service, he had been unable to leave this sanctuary, steadily becoming more apart of the citadel as each portion of his body withered and died. Soon the old man would be gone completely, his bio-engrams broken down and reduced to nothing more than task instruction wafers to be fed into worker-servitors.
This is rather peculiar in light of the fact we know there are Magos who have lived as long or longer without such extensive measures being employed (or nearly losing all their humanity, if not sanity.) Hell there are AdMech who lived thousands of years before they started going mad. This may suggest that the AdMech has various means of prolonging the life of its membership, and not all methods are available equally (or shared equally.) Or, it may be that it varies from person to person (Some go insane more quickly than others.)

Page 153

- artillery gunner wearing a "reinforced" flak vest. One presumes htis is heavier/better protection than standard flak.

Page 155
A white-hot beam of plasma energy slammed into his [forrix's] chest, instantly obliterating the blasted iconography there and searing through layers of ceramite armour. Forrix felt the heat of the plasma scorch his skin and he staggered under the force of the impact. His Terminator armour had been forged on the Anvil of Holades on Olympia itself and its ancient spirit was as corrupt as he, not yet willing to fall.
Plasma gun breaches Forrix's terminator armour, although its not a fatal shot. It is implied that other kinds of Terminator armour (newer models perhaps) might not be nearly so durable.

Page 157
Bright stabs of las-fire from above pierced the smoke in huge numbers, melting rock and hissing against armour. A bolt strruck his shoulder guard, staggering him, but he presse don. A grenade burst at his feet, deadly fragments ringing from his armour and embedding themselves in his leg greaves.
Las fire "melts" rock around Forrix, unfortunatley it doesnt tell us how much is melted. One bolt "staggers" him, one presumes this reaction-forces from vaporizing part of the cermaite armour layers. And of course, frag grenades are ineffective against Terminator armour.

Page 157
Honsou tripped as the rocks slid out from beneath his feet, narrowly avoiding being obliterated by a shot from a lascannon.
Lascannon packing enough punch to "obliterate" Honsou (pity it didn't.) This suggests lascannon are within a same order of magnitude in terms of firepower as plasma and melta weapons (tripel digit MJ or low GJ)

Page 157
He pushed himself angrily to his feet and cursed as he saw three black-steel tubes bound together with packing tape clatter down the slope of th breach.
...
Two Iron warriors were snatched away in the blast, their armour ripped open by the force of the demo charge.
[

Unlike grenades, Demo charges are quite effective at fucking over Astartes.

Page 157
More shots riddled the shattered breach, vitrifying the rock and pitting the ground with bullet impacts. Honsou felt powerful impacts from a heavy bolter slam into his armour.
...
The sheer amount of enemy fire was now telling, Honsou saw another Iron Warrior fall, his armour pierced by a smoking hole punched in his breastplate.
Again we see weapon (las) shots melting (vitrifying) rock.

Honsou's armour has at least some resistance to Guard heavy bolters, which seems either exceptionally lucky or rare.

No idea what the second Iron Warrior fell to. Might be las-weapon, or a bolt weapon, or something else.

Page 158
Shots filled the air, flashes of las-fire vaporising the smoke as they
slashed past him. The one remaining tower at the head of of the bastion sprayed bullets across the breach, kicking up spurts of rock dust while grenades wreathed them in ringing detonations and spinning fragments.
The warrior beside him fell, his helmet a molten ruin
Jouran fire melts the helmet (and preusmably the head) of another Iron Warrior. The weapon type isn't specified, but we can narrow it down given certain factS:

- Meltaguns and lascannon would vaporize if not totally obliterate a soldier even with a glancing shot (Honsou's near miss, as well as other novels like the Cain novels, another short story by GRaham McNeill, etc.) And in any cae, the head wouldn't likely be intact save for the most glancing hit.. So its probably not one of those weapons.

- Grenades and bolters, while they have been shown vaporizing or cauterizing, rarely melt anything (particularily in this novel.) And if they did, the head wouldn't be remotely intact. Autoweapons, it goes without saying, are obviously not considered.

This means a plasma weapon or lasgun of some kind. Of the two, las-fire is mentioned in the passage but plasma weapons are not (and plasma is as likely to vaporize as a meltagun is.) and plasma fire is quite distinctive in any case and Honsou probably would have noticed. Given that, its most likely the weapon doing this is a lasgun (presumably on some full auto/sustained fire setting.)

Assuming a roughly 20 cm diamter helmet (somewhat consevative) that is roughly 3 cm thick (roughly an inch) and assume it is roughly cylindrical and with the density of silicon, the sucker probably masses around 10 kg.

Assuming melt energies for silicon (about 2-2.5 MJ/kg) So roughly 20-25 MJ in however many shots it took (probably no more than a few seconds' worth of fire.)

We don't know what happened to the head (aside from the fact it wasn't blown apart) but the closet to melting the head would be cauterising, which might add another 8-10 MJ to the estimate.

So, for a probable lasgun or plasma weapon, we're looking at 20-30 MJ minimum injected over a fairly short period of time, but there's alot of "ifs" there.

Page 159
Below was a hell of lasers and bullets, enfilading fire form the flanking bastion ripping great holes in the ranks of the human soldiers as they struggled up the rocks. Hundreds had fallen, their bodies shredded by automatic weapons or burned by las-fire.
The Jourans are using automatic weapons as well as las-weapons, but only the las weapons are doing thermal damage. The automatic (rpojectile weapons) are "shredding" teh bodies, whatever that means.

Page 166
And my bolt is 0.75 calibre, diamantine tipped with a depleted uranium core..
"Depleted uranium" bolt pistol rounds. One assumes they're penetrators.

Page 166

Forrix was noted as being almost three meters tall in his Terminator armour here. His chestplate (hit by the plasma blast earlier) is also noted to be "molten." That's probably from the plasma blast.

Assuming a half meter by hlaf meter breastplate molten to a depth of about 15 cm and density of silicon, the chestplate weighs about 70 kg. Melting would take around 150-175 MJ minimum.

Page 168
He raised his weapon and squeezed off a short burst, the shells taking the magos between the shoulders, disintegrating his torso and blasting him claer of the dais in a welter of bone and blood
A burst from Forrix's combi bolter blows apart an AdMech Magos' torso. Given most Magos, its doubtful there's all that MUCH blood and bone there.
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Post by Peptuck »

Jouran fire melts the helmet (and preusmably the head) of another Iron Warrior. The weapon type isn't specified, but we can narrow it down given certain factS:

- Meltaguns and lascannon would vaporize if not totally obliterate a soldier even with a glancing shot (Honsou's near miss, as well as other novels like the Cain novels, another short story by GRaham McNeill, etc.) And in any cae, the head wouldn't likely be intact save for the most glancing hit.. So its probably not one of those weapons.

- Grenades and bolters, while they have been shown vaporizing or cauterizing, rarely melt anything (particularily in this novel.) And if they did, the head wouldn't be remotely intact. Autoweapons, it goes without saying, are obviously not considered.

This means a plasma weapon or lasgun of some kind. Of the two, las-fire is mentioned in the passage but plasma weapons are not (and plasma is as likely to vaporize as a meltagun is.) and plasma fire is quite distinctive in any case and Honsou probably would have noticed. Given that, its most likely the weapon doing this is a lasgun (presumably on some full auto/sustained fire setting.)

Assuming a roughly 20 cm diamter helmet (somewhat consevative) that is roughly 3 cm thick (roughly an inch) and assume it is roughly cylindrical and with the density of silicon, the sucker probably masses around 10 kg.

Assuming melt energies for silicon (about 2-2.5 MJ/kg) So roughly 20-25 MJ in however many shots it took (probably no more than a few seconds' worth of fire.)

We don't know what happened to the head (aside from the fact it wasn't blown apart) but the closet to melting the head would be cauterising, which might add another 8-10 MJ to the estimate.

So, for a probable lasgun or plasma weapon, we're looking at 20-30 MJ minimum injected over a fairly short period of time, but there's alot of "ifs" there.
Looking at this, I keep thinking that it could have been a long-las variant with a hotshot pack. I don't think a regular lasgun could melt the hemet with ordinary settings, though if he got hit repeatedly with lasweapons set to full charge, it could have had similar effects.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Weedkiller being effective against orks really is no big deal. It's nice because it will fuck orks without killing humans, but the Imperium is more than willing to use chemical warfare on a large scale, including substances that are quite lethal to orks, and that hasn't magically solved the ork problem. It'll be a nice addition to the Imperial arsenal, should they ever rediscover it, but it won't be a silver bullet.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Peptuck wrote: Looking at this, I keep thinking that it could have been a long-las variant with a hotshot pack. I don't think a regular lasgun could melt the hemet with ordinary settings, though if he got hit repeatedly with lasweapons set to full charge, it could have had similar effects.
Long las shots tend to be semiautomatic (one or two shots at most that I recall) and they usually are alot more explosive (the head/helmet could still be melted, but it would probably come apart.)

That's a possible interpretation, but the context seems to imply a more sustained melting. A lasgun on full auto or continuous/sustained beam fire could do that without explosive effects (we dont know how long/how many shots it precisely took, remember.) And something roughly similar did happen in the novel "first and Only" to a World Eater (full powered Vitrian shot, remember.)

Moreover, not all lasguns are the same, some can be more powerful than others (Balurian lasguns in Grey Knights, or the Krieg lasguns from Imperial Armour 5.) Hell even regular las weapons can use hotshot packs (various sources.)

And there is still the possibility it was a plasma weapon (though plasma weapons, now that I think of it, can also be rather explosive.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

New update. Some more calcs and the introduction of the Fists...

Page 176
Each piece [of Kroeger's armour] was heavy, almost too heavy, and were it not for the wheezing mechanical arm Kroeger's butcher-surgeons had frafted to her shoulder she would have been unable to lift his armour clear..
An indication of Space Marine armour mass This includes the breast and back plates, the greaves, and the gauntlets (and probably associated arm/leg components). This would tend to suggest that Space Marine armour pieces are too heavy for most normal (unarmoured) humans to carry

Page 176

- aforementioned mechanical arm has "biomechanical components" that insinuate themselves in the recipient's body. Whether this is true of all such grafts or only a feature of Chaos-inspired augmetics is unknown although the Guardsman's reaction to the graft probably suggests the latter.

Page 177

- I could be wrong here, but the implication seesm to be that Kroeger (a CSM) is actually raping a human woman (Larana Utorian, captive from the Jouran Dragoons) although given Kroeger's inherent Khornate tendencies its possible his lusts run to more bloody/violent bents than rape. Either way, he's tormenting her.

Page 182

- mention of "mystical surveyors" for detecting approaching ships. Is this more Adeptus-Mechanicus (or Dark Mechaicus) technobabble or is it some sort of genuine "magic detector?" (or just a magical means of detection?)

Page 183

- the Iron Warriror's sorcerers are corrupting a captured A-M adept's body (augmentics and all) with a modiied form of the Obliterator "techno-virus"

Page 187
A body lay against one wall, ,the little flesh that remained on its skeleton was scorched and black.
This was originally one of Hawke's companions, head blown off earlier by Honsou's bolt pistol and then further damaged by the grenade. It looks like much fo the flesh may have been stripped off by predators, but it is noted that the body appeared to be badly burned by the grenade, which suggests it had a significant thermal component as well as blast/fragmentation.

Page 190

- the Hydra Cordatus citadel's shield is offering incomplete protection because the aformentioned Amatheon is required to exert effort to maintain it, ,and he has difficulty doint ghis under bombardment while maintaining all the other systems of the citadel (like the laboratorium) This seems like a curious drawback, as other eaxmples of shield facilities we've seen (such as Vervunhive, or the Belatis palace in Execution Hour) did not seem to exhibit such flaws. It my be that the half-mad Amatheon refuses to let the shield be managed passively for some reason.

Page 196

- the Jouran dragoons are using black flak jackets for the night assault. This suggests they have varying kinds of gear for different kinds of fighting ( as well as being skilled at night fighting itself.)

Page 196
The traitor line was still a few hundred metres away.
Distance of the Dragoons from the enemy lines. Vaubon is concerned with being spotted and attacked before reaching the enemy lines, so this may be considered a (rough) indicator of the engagement ranges the enemy (and thus the Jourans themselves) are capable of.

AS a side note, there is an implicaton here of being able to fire at long ranges at night, as with below.

Page 196-197

- mention of one of the Iron Warrior slave-troopers having a "battered pair of field glasses" that could see in the dark. Since most Chaos troops use looted Imperium gear, we can conjecture that there are regiments using such equipment. (Hell, if Chaos cannon fodder has it, the Imperium almost certainly does.).

Page 197
Yosha pulled out a set of blackened and ancient field goggles. A bizarre protruberance slotted over the eyepiece and Yosha pulled it over his shaven head. He rested his chin on his hands and trained his gaze over the parapet.
They look or seem like night vision goggles of some kind, similar in appearance/function to modern NVG?

Page 197
A sharp buzzing crack whipped by him and blasted the back of Yosha's head open in an explosion of blood and brains.

...

Sniper!
Klane ducked down behind the parapet and cocked his rifle, his head working left and right to see other sentires dropping, no doubt picked off by Imperial snipers on the walls of the Ravelin.
Earlier on page 183, it is noted that the trenches (at the point where the Iron Warriors artillery was emplaced) was about 600 meters from the ditch of Hydra Cordatus. IT is not known or ever noted that the Jourans have dedicaed marksmen or snipers, so we may conclude that the "snipers" discused here aren't dedicated marksmen like Larkin but rather skilled troopers using lasguns. Given that he believes an attack is coming in but cannot see it, this seems likely.

We should also note that as before, the Chaos soldiers are all using bolt action rifles. As noted, these rifles tend to employ very powerful rounds with a result of also being long-ranged. 600 meters would also be within the range of such weapons, and it is never once mentioned that the Iron Warrior's troops held any sort of range advantage over the Jourans.

There is also the matter of the damage - though we dont actually learn the weapon that does it (implied to be a bolt weapon though), the fact the warrior considers it a las weapon from the Jourans probably suggests a lasgun could do comparable damage. Boiling the interior of the head (or even half of it) woudl take hundreds of kilojoules easily (for a las weapon).

This quote also more definitively gives the Jouran weaponry some sort of low-light/infrared/night vision scope - I doubt a target could be hit out to 600 meters at night.

Page 202

- the torpedo Hawke is helping to reprogram is at least 30 (maybe 40) meters tall. This makes it somewhat smaller than the torpedoes mentioned in Battlefleet Gothic, at least on the low end.

Page 202-203:

- with the help of a Tech-priest, Hawke's vox-caster was hooked up to an orbital attack torpedo and used to transmit/upload targeting data into its cogitator/targeting spirit. Thus it seems reasonable that a function of Vox-casters is the transmission/reception of data to other devices, which can presumably include visual data as well or targeting information from one source to another. The sophistication of the basilisks earlier would confirm this.

Page 203
.The top of the giant missile was rounded and strangely irregular. There was a serrated, spiral groove cut in the warhead and Hawke guessed that this was to help it burrow through the thick hull of a starship before detonating deep inside
.
Torpedoes penetrate via mass/velocity (momentum) before detonating. Thus they are as much physical impacotrs as they are explosive devices. Some (as we note below) also use shaped charges for penetrating armour in some cases as well.

Page 205

- under the right (unspecified) circumstances, bolter fire CAN breach Space Marine armour. Probably not a surprise, since even Power armour is not armoured equally everywhere.

Page 208
Hawke fired a hail of las-bolts, ripping the man's chest to bloody ruin and blasting clear the wall-mounted grille behind him.
No idea what a "hail" of las-bolts mean (aside more than two.) but the passage indicates that while his torso appeared to be mostly intact (in the sense he wasn't severed to pieces) it chest was pretty well torn up/apart (presumably much of the skeletal structure remains intact) - the las-blasts are also indicated to have penetrated through.

Assuming half the chest was torn apart (but the lower part was mainly intact.) conjecturing a volume of .0165 m^3 (for the upper chest 30x22x25 cm) you get between 12-15 kg in mass (Depending on exact density - the human body is roughly the density of water but the internal volume is not uniform.)

Assuming low end boiling point for the flesh content, and 1-2 seconds of fire at the 220 RPM ROF from the Uplifting primer, Energy input is at least 3.2-4 MJ divided between 3-7 shots.. so between 430 kilojoules and 1.3 MJ minimum per shot. If cauterisation occurs (see below) the calc could be several times higher, depending on exact temperature used.

"Bloody" may or may not suggest cauterization occured, (bleedign can be triggered even after cauterization occurs, depending on the lasgun and the setting used.) and it doesn't acount for any vaporization occuring. And it doesn't account for inefficiencies either. Body armour and chaos mutations are also a possibility.

Really, there's alot of ambiguities to this calc (precise effect, rate of fire, etc), so its not as reliable as certain others and more useful as a supplementary calc

.Page 210

- "Glaive Class ground-launched orbital torpedo"

Page 211
As it [torpedo] reached a height of nearly one hundred kilometres, the first stage of the torpedo separated and stage two ignited, increasing the velocity still further as the war-spirit caged within the warhead calculated hte time, distance, ,and vector to its target.

..

The torpedo nosed over, traveling at almost fourteen thousand kilometres per hour, and began hunting for its prey.
14,000 km/hr is only about 3.89 km/s, fa below escape velocity for a habitable planet. Clearly they weren't using it at full capability.

Page 213-214
The torpedo impacted almst exactly in the centre of the Kane Bastion of Tor Christo where its triple stage warhead detonated with devastating results. The lead element of the warhead was designed to crater an opening through the thick hull of a starship, while the tail element would explode simultaneously, acting as a propellant and hurtling the middle charge deep within its target.

But instead of the metres-thick, reinforced adamantium bulkhead of a starship, the torpedo slammed into the ground of the Kane bastion, traveling at over a thousand kilometres an hour. The first stage of the torpedo exploded with phenomenal power, flattening everything within three hundred metres and blasting a crater fifty metres deep. The tail section blew and thrust the torpedo deeper into the rock of the promontory where the more powerfulc entre charge detonated with the power of a sun, ripping the rock of Tor Christos apart.

...

A surging mushroom cloud billowed a thousand metres into the sky, hurling ash and burning rock in all directions.

The ramparts of the bastions either side of the torpedo impact sagged and cracked, their rockcrete walls splitting under forces they were never designed to endure. The crater in the center of the promontory expanded with terrifying rapidity, tonnes of rubble and artillyery pieces collapsing into the fiery pit.

....

with a tortured groan, millions of tonnes of stone cracked and rumbled, sliding free of the slopes of the promonetory, crashing down in a rocky tidal wave of destruction.
Several things of note:

- this torpedo is multi staged. The first is an armour-breaching charge, the third acting as a booster (to push deeper through the weakened section.) these two f urther the penetration. The middle charge is the "main" and more powerufl explosive.

Curiously, this does not seem to behave quite like how plasma torpedoes are described in Battlefleet Gothic (the plasma engine contributes to the explosive warhead.) os it may be a different kind of weapon.

- the first charge is hard to calc totally, but creating a 50 m "deep" (radius) crater can require between 180 tons and 1 kiloton of TNT (depending on how one defines crater and composition) although the physical impact aspect complicates this.

- the middle charge is stated to detonate "with the power of a sun" - this could mean its merely a fusion warhead or its a plasma detonation, or it may refer to the actual output of the weapon being comparable to such. It may also refer to literally the power output of a sun, but if so it couldn't be a large one, since anything above a few hunderd gigatons/teratons would have nasty/significant effects and these seem to be far too localized for such, even with a "buried" nature.

We dont know how large the final crater is, ,but even assuming a few kilometers or more, its not likley to be more than megaton range, or a few gigatons. It is worth noting that since the Imperial forces merely wished to harm the Iron Warriors without obliterating themselves in the process, we can surmise they would have also "dialed down" the yield on such weapons to limit their own casualties. There is also the titans which weren't fucked over in the explosion.

Page 214
The blast wave buffeted the towering form of the Dies Irae but the workers had done their jobs well and the towering buttresses and scaffolding held, keeping the monstrous leviathan from toppling. The massive Titan shook, its joints groaning and squealing as its external gyros fought for balance, but the shockwave passed over it and left it intact. Several other Titans were not so fortunate and three Warlords of the Legio Morrtis were brought down by massive huunks of rock or collapsed by the force fo the blast.

..

All that remained of Tor Christo was the void-shielded keep, perched precariously on a splintered corbel of rock.
Warlord titans are crushed by debris from the explosion (but not the blast wave.) the Dies Irae also survives the blast wave, though being visibly buffeted in the process. It wouldn't take more than a few megatons (or a few hundred kilotons) of explosive to do this. This tells us titans can survive nuclear level detonations from some distance away, in any case.

Also note the keep's own void shields protected ti from the torpedo, giving a lower limit on shield toelrances.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Do the titans also have void shields?
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Cykeisme wrote:Do the titans also have void shields?
Chaos and Imperial Titans have void shields.
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Cykeisme
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Post by Cykeisme »

The keep's void shield must be considerably more durable than those of the oncoming Imperial Titans if it survived unscathed at ground zero of a blast that took out titans some distance away.

I guess this is no surprise, I'm just confirming on it.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

well alot of the blast seemed to have been absorbed by the outer walls, so that probably affects things somewhat. Moreover, the Titans themselves had been in battle at least once before against the Imperial Titans, including Dis Irae. That doubtless was a contributing factor.

As a rule, though, its probable that the keep has stronger void shields simply because that, as a fixed facility, it can be allowed to fit in a much bigger generator.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Shortly after the Imperial Fists save the day. We get more fighting, and we find out how much of a badass Forrix is.

Page 221
Two days to cross some of the most inhospitable terrain Leonid had ever sen. IT had taken Guardsmen Hawke almost a full day to cross eight kilometres, never mind a hundred.
The Imperial Fists took two days to cross 50 km of mountains (it took Hawke 1 day to cross 8 km). One way to interpret it is literally, that it took the Fists 48 hours to cross 50 km (or a bit over 1 km/hr, which is less than 1 m/s and seems a bit silly, given that Space Marines can cover many meters in a single stride. Of course, this isn't straight/level walking, but mountaineering, which is a different matter entirely.

The other way to look at it is to compare Hawke's progress to the Fists. They crossed 25 km per day, as poosed to Hawke's 8 km/day. In this context, the Fists come off as about 3x faster than a normal man (at least in power armour.) which seems more in line with other performance traits.

Page 230

- The Dies Irae is shooting at Hydra Cordatus from the "maximum range" of its remaining guns. From other examples we know of this can probably mean several kilometers at least (Malleus/Hereticus and Dark Apostle come to mind.)

Page 234
"I have begun a series of countermines. One from within a derelict building behind the inner wall and another from within the Primus Ravelin. When they are complete I will fill them with assault troops equipped with auspexes."
Not only do the fists carry Auspexes for theri troops (per squad I would guess), but its implied that said auspexes can detect through rock to some unspecified depth/distance.

Page 235

- I'm not going to quote anything, but I am going to say that Captain Eshara has to be my favorite Rogal-Dorn deriviative character next to Lexandro D'Arquebus (Lexandro was good, but the whole "Hur hur, pain is good!" bit got a little tiresome and one-dimensional.) He's confident without being arrogant, he's not condescending to his allies (indeed, he's got great respect for them and shows it) and he doesn't put space Marine interests before the Imperium's (unlike, say, ,the Adeptus Mechanicus.) Shame about his demise, but I wish more Space Marines could be like this (and less like Sarpedon.)

Then again, him dying probably also prevents him from becoming another Uriel Ventris.

Page 239

- it is revealed that Hydra Cordatus is a secret facility for storing and monitoring the purity of Space Marine gene seed. Supposedly the genetic material stored below is enough to create whole "legions" of space Marines.

Conservatively, this implies enough to create scores of Chapters (tens of thousands of Space Marines) but this is merely a conservative estimate.

The implications of the facility and its prize are such that Forrix (who discoveres the truth) envisions unlimited Black Crusades and Abbadon finally being able to topple the Imperium and establish his own regime.

This implies something more like many hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of Space Marines. Possibly even more.

Page 245

- Terminator armor is resistant to sustained bolter fire (Imperial fists) though if it strikes a weak point or joint it can penetrate and cause injury. Though this being Forrix's armour, we might consider it to be "atypical" (I dont see this altering the idea that Terminator armour can resist at least some short term bolter fire, at least.)

Page 246
Forrix rocked under the impacts, bringing his weapon to bear and fired the underslung melta gun. The white-hot blast of superheated air punched into the Imperial Fist, incinerating his torso with a hissing detonation, the oxygen-rich blood in his body flashing to a stinking red steam.
A pile of armoured limbs and a head - all that remaind of the space marine - clattered to the floor, the gory stumps cauterised and molten.
The meltagun attachment to Forrix's weapon "incinerateS" the torso of an Imperial Fist. Given the dimensions of a Space Marine relative to a person (as well as Fists being "twice as bulky" as a normal man in the novel "Harlequin" we can conjecture that a space MArine's torso might mass anywhere from 40 kg to up to 100 kg of tissue. Incineration and vaporization energgies (vaporizing the water content in the body, ,burning the flehs to ash) are roughly comparable, and the minimum input would be between 100 and 250 MJ. This doesn't factor in any of the imrpoved "durability" of a marine (its tougher ceramically-augmented skeleton, for example), nor does it factor in inefficiencies, and it totally ignores the damage to the armour.

The armour itself is implied to be reduced to a molten state. Assuming the breasplates are several inches thick (a reasonable assumption) and made of silicon we can estimate between 35 and 70 kg at least. Melting the breast and backplates can add another 150-350 MJ to the figure (again ignoring inefficiencies and the probability that SM armour is more durable than real life materials.)

Page 248
He felt sharp pain in his side and shoulder as more bolts impacted on his armour. As mighty as Terminator armour was, it could still be brought down by sheer volume of fire.
Generally half a dozen Imperial Fists (total) firing over a period of minutes at most. At around 4-6 shots per second and 2 minutes with roughly half the shots hitting, we can infer that Forrix has taken many thousands of bolter hits.

Page 248
he felt the blade of a crackling sword rip through is armour, between his ribs and into his primary heart.
...
Gunfire hammered him and he felt the bone shield within his chest cavity crack as a bolter shell exploded within the ceramite plates of his armour.
..
He pulled himself to his feet as more bullets hammered him.
Forrix demonstrates just how durable a Chaos Space Marine can be when it comes to injury. Not sure how to compare this to reuglar Space Marines, though Forrix does not seem to be noticably mutated or altered in any way that I can tell.

Page 249
A bolt took Forrix high on the temple, blasting a porttion of his helmet clear and blood streamed down his face. something slammed into his visor, ripping the helmet from his head. He felt his jawbone shatter.
...

as he felt the wide blade of another sword pierce his chest, tear through is lungs and burst through the backplate of his armour....
More examples of the abuse Forrix suffers, all from fighting the Fists. Also note that a bolt round had enough momentum to knock the helmet off of Forrix's head, which must weigh several tens of kilograms at least (implying considerable momentum behind the round.)
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

connor wrote:Page 221
Quote:
Two days to cross some of the most inhospitable terrain Leonid had ever sen. IT had taken Guardsmen Hawke almost a full day to cross eight kilometres, never mind a hundred.

The Imperial Fists took two days to cross 50 km of mountains (it took Hawke 1 day to cross 8 km). One way to interpret it is literally, that it took the Fists 48 hours to cross 50 km (or a bit over 1 km/hr, which is less than 1 m/s and seems a bit silly, given that Space Marines can cover many meters in a single stride. Of course, this isn't straight/level walking, but mountaineering, which is a different matter entirely.

The other way to look at it is to compare Hawke's progress to the Fists. They crossed 25 km per day, as poosed to Hawke's 8 km/day. In this context, the Fists come off as about 3x faster than a normal man (at least in power armour.) which seems more in line with other performance traits.
Ah, Connor, the quote is about a hundred kilometers, not 50 :P
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