Imperial InfantryMan's uplifting Primer analysis thread

[white_rabbit]

On lasgun power packs. the Manual describes the basic kit for a sample guardsmen, the "base" Guard regiment is the 91st Cadian, used as a rough representative of Munitorum doctrine, but it emphasises that there are lots of differences, but most will have XXX in common.

6 powerpacks is "enough to fire a minimum of 2000 shots, depending on power setting "

Then later under "power packs" "when used conservatively...typically last for around 150 shots"

Hotshots are rated at around 20 shots, which differs slightly from the Hotshot packs used in the Ghosts novels, where Larkin commonly depletes an entire pack.

Just for fun, the "wallguns" from Only in Death explosively dismember their targets, then vapourise the targets behind.

pah, who needs a plasma gun!

The Titan example is worse than what Sidewinder has posted, its not only the same class of titan, its the same Goddamned Titan!

[white_rabbit]

The text doesn't say if there are lasguns with higher rates of fire available or how easily one can modify a basic pattern lasgun to fire more quickly, if at all possible.

Heh this reminded me of a bit from " Only in Death " when a poorly maintained and malfunctioning Lasgun pours out its entire clip in one blast, knocks the firer off his feet and blasts the shit of some poor patch of ground.

Makes you wonder what else you can do with a Lasgun, you can rig them to blow up as well.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'll yell at Gunhead some more later. I wanted to touch on this stuff first...

I picked up the "Imperial Munitorum Manual" at Games Day, which is essentially another book in the same series, produced by the Munitorum, and foreworded by the Chancellor of the Estates Imperial. It seems to be much more realistic, though it does have a humours insistance on the guard respecting the Munitorum. I'll post some bits when I get the time...

Can't wait to see it, given what you and W_R have been hinting at.

Also, as it's about logistics, it has a lot of information about weapons and such in it. Hotshot lasguns, for example, are more powerful than hellguns, which actually fire the same amount of energy/shot as normal lasguns, but more focussed and penetrative. Hotshot lasguns are also considered superior (to my surprise) to the las/dart combination sniper rifle.

Well, I wouldn't take that as absolutes any more than I would take what IA5 noted for hellguns vs lasguns (they fired more energy per shot, and that hotshot/hellugns were comparable.) as being absolute. It smacks a bit of game mechanics to me (where the STR rating of hellguns and lasguns IIRC is both 3, but the Hellgun has an AP of 5. Of course, this also makes a lasgun comparable to a laspistol as well, which seems a bit silly.)

As another eaxmple, we know in "For the Emperor" that ten hellgun shots can vaporize a metal hatch, and at least one or two (if not more) people standing behind it. That's hundreds of megajoules easily no matter how you look at it. Lasguns in the cain novels typically are alot less powerful than this "per shot." (the wall melting scene in Caves of Ice, for example.)

In practice, it will always come down to a.) the type of lasgun and the settings being used (fire rate and power level both) as well as the powerpack being used. Some lasguns are intrinsically more powerful than others, and it seems that powerpacks can alter outputs as well. The same seems to be true of hellguns as well.

As for Hotshots, well, ,we have differences such as the "20 shot" packs, the "200 shot" backpack sourcse (like from IA5) and of course the "drain in one shot" powerpacks Larkin uses. I'm sure that a "single use" hotshot pack could be as powerful (or more powerful) than what a hellgun could put out.

The "las/dart" weapons seem to be different weapons entirely from the "long las" weapons like Larkin uses. you don't really need a large pulse to make the tinyn hole in the target (its meant to be more of a high-penetration weapon anyhow.) Though I don't see why they can't use some other form of projectile (some sort of explosive dart, or maybe an acidic one, or some incendiary. Or even antimatter ) The laser is more of a secondary function

The Munitorum Manual has some good stuff on that. 150 shots or more, I think. Anyway, night.

The stuff on powerpacks and the Cadian "standard 6 powerpacks - 2000 shots") would be good to see, if you have time. I'm planning to get this when it comes out, but I have quite a while to wait still

[Connor MacLeod]

On lasgun power packs. the Manual describes the basic kit for a sample guardsmen, the "base" Guard regiment is the 91st Cadian, used as a rough representative of Munitorum doctrine, but it emphasises that there are lots of differences, but most will have XXX in common.

Given that most drawings of "typical" guardsmen I see in such books tend to duplicate Cadian armour and uniforms, and that the CAdian entries have always said that many other regiments try to emulate them, its not surprising. (The Uplifting Primer's drawings all resemble Cadians.)

I kind of like this, given what I've noted for the probable durability of the "hard-shell" parts of flak armour vs the soft/flexible parts.

6 powerpacks is "enough to fire a minimum of 2000 shots, depending on power setting "

.. Or, ~330 shots per pack, again "Depending on setting". We don't know quite what the setting might be, however.)

Then later under "power packs" "when used conservatively...typically last for around 150 shots"

If we assume that the lasgun in question has "two" settings as standard (as hinted in the Uplifting primer) this means that "high" power shots are 2x the power of "low" power shots (which would be what is hinted at in the Ghosts novels, as well as the Inquisition rulebook with the Triplex pattern lasgun, or a multiple of 2.)

That's purely conjectural, however, so its possible that other lasguns have more than one setting (Storm of iron seems to suggest this.) or the settings use different multiples (3x or 4x difference in power/energy usage rather than 2x.)

However, the "used conservatively" seems to suggest 150 shots is actually more of a "lower" setting rather than a "higher", so maybe we might assume its a "standard" setting, and that 300+ shots is for "low'. On "high" it might be worth 40-60 shots, hypothetically (which is what we see hinted at in many other sources.)

Powerpack outputs might also depend on the type of las. "assault las" like in 13th legion seem to use larger powerpacks than the "semi-auto" lasguns like some other regiments use, but this might also follow with the "semi-auto" lasguns having considerably more power "per shot." (which would follow from the comparison of say, an M1 Garand vs an M-16.)

Hotshots are rated at around 20 shots, which differs slightly from the Hotshot packs used in the Ghosts novels, where Larkin commonly depletes an entire pack.

That suggests that hotshot packs (And probably regular powerpacks) simply vary quite a bit in power ratings. The "one use" hotshots Larkin uses I would guess would be equivalent to a .50 cal bolt action rifle round, whereas the "20 shot" hotshots might be simply more equal to the 7.62x51mm Nato round.

Just for fun, the "wallguns" from Only in Death explosively dismember their targets, then vapourise the targets behind.

What's a wallgun, I dare ask?

pah, who needs a plasma gun!

Plasma guns can not just vaporize, they reducec to ash

Heh this reminded me of a bit from " Only in Death " when a poorly maintained and malfunctioning Lasgun pours out its entire clip in one blast, knocks the firer off his feet and blasts the shit of some poor patch of ground.

Makes you wonder what else you can do with a Lasgun, you can rig them to blow up as well.

Can you provide a quote of the incident? It might be a calcalbe event. Wouldn't surprise me though if a lasgun could be able to dump all the energy out at oncee, though...

[Connor MacLeod]

First off, make better use of the quote function. I get very annoyed when I have to sort out what the fuck the opponent is saying.

I was just pointing out that the uplifting primer says the rof for a lasgun is cyclic, and in case if some of our fellow posters are not familiar with the term I explained it to them. So there is a lot of variation what the rof of a lasgun is. What of it? If Xth legion of has a lasgun with a high rate of fire well good for them. If you're so sure that the ULP is incorrect then you can easily show that the 480-720 rpm lasgun is the standard lasgun of the empire. I mean shit, you can have millions of guardsmen armed with continuous beam lasguns, and it would still be insanely rare if the other 99% is armed with the gun described in ULP.

Strawman ahoy! I never claimed it was standard, though feel free to pretend I did if it makes you feel better.

As for the ULP being "incorrect", do you mean beisdes the fact that they also screwed up the autopistol "rate of fire" (or are you going to tell me 60-150 rpm is "good" for an automatic weapon when you can fire faster just by semi-auto trigger pull?) Or, as I pointed out, a guy can fire faster with a lasgun on single-shot than with the "Cyclic" rate? There's also the well-establisehd fact that lasguns can vary dramatically in design?

By relying on heavy weapons squads for fire support I mean their really hard hitting direct and indirect weapons that are all crew served weapons and are not spread across individual squads. I wasn't talking about squad support weapons. Individual heavy weapon placement would vary by situation and would by their very nature provide fire support to multiple squads. I however doubt that it's common to assign a heavy weapon to a squad. Squad support weapons are there to provide fire support to an individual squad.

And you know this how, exactly? All we know is that it can be done, we don't actually know the dispositions. If we go by the novels, it's fairly varied depending ON the source (the Ghosts, for example, make use of rocket launchers, whereas the Valhallans in the Cain novels make use of no specific heavy weapons I remember, but then again they're also entirely motorized like the Steel Legions.)

The only other source I could go by is inference. As noted in other threads I have done, given the probable number of Hive Worlds in the Imperium, you can expect a disproportionate number of troops to come from those places. A fair bit of which will probably be Hive Gangers. If you've ever bothered to read a Necromunda novel or had a look at the Necromunda rules, you'd note the following:

- few Necromundan gangs have more than 20 members and most have fewer than a dozen (so for the most part, they qualify as a squad.)

- Each gang will typically have at least one or two heavies - big, burly strong folk (kinda like Bragg or others like him) who are designed to carry and employ those heavy weapons, sometimes alone and sometimes (IIRC) with assistance. This can include heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, autocannon, lascannon, and missile launchers. Some gangs like the Goliath make use of "heavy" weapons like stubbers and autocannons as regular weapons, because they're freakishly strong.)

Given that disposition, its probable that "hive gang" regiments would have quite a few heavy weapons available at squad level (if for no other reason than they startted out with that before being conscripted.) I won't even bother commenting on "Goliath" regiments....

That's about the only other way I can possibly see establishing any sorrt of comparative baseline, and its still somewhat conjectural even then. But its no worse than what you appear to "assume" as true.

Now don't get me wrong. I really think every Imp. squad should come with an integral support weapon that fills the niche of a machine gun, and I've always wondered why they don't have one. Imperial heavy weapons classifications do not differ from real life all that much. If the case turns out to be that they don't need one it's a whole different story.

Again, who says they don't? If they don't have "machine gun" las-weapons (even though Wargear suggests otherwise), then it's simply a matter of relying on stubbers or autoweapons (some of which fall quite readily into the "machine gun" range of things.) Or are you going to tell me that the Guard doesn't use autoguns or stubbers now?

So it depends on the regiment. How's that inconsistent with platoons not having an organic heavy weapons squad as standard?

Again, because you don't FUCKING listen, I'll point it out: squads can have their own heavy weapons crews. Even command squads. This is in addition to the heavy weapons that the HQ/command platoon might have
and the heavy weapons platoons themselves.

Again. I was just pointing out what the UPL says. Can there be platoons that have integrated hvy weapons squads? Why the fuck not. If the catachans and the Ghosts use a different TOE so what. They're still a piddling percentage of the imp guard as a whole.

Provide numbers to back up that claim. I'm getting fucking tired of you and your broad-based declarations of what is "true" despite the fact you fail to provide anything resembling proof to back it up.

You don't see it? It's really simple. "If it's worth doing, then send at least a platoon to do it." A squad can be wiped out in a single ambush. A well placed mine will do it. A squad that has 4 wounded is not ready for action.
A single sniper can destroy a squad. A single squad is very alone and vulnerable. A platoon has enough men and firepower to fend off a larger attacking force, can perform any task that doesn't require the full company ( tasks like check that village, protect that village, scout ahead etc.) and can fulfill those roles even if some casualties are taken.
The guard can easily spare the manpower and using anything smaller wouldn't make much sense. Special ops are a whole different story.

Oh no, I've just been presented with a bunch of unverified assertions about how the guard SHOULD operate, what am I going to do?

oh yes, ignore it, becuase its' unverified assertions without a scrap of proof.

Oh, and what does this have to do with you claiming that "the smallest tactical unit they utilize", given that they DO have smaller units (as pointed out to you not only by myself, but also by Lonestar.) Given your prior strawman, I smell a red herring.

I've read in a long time. Not that's saying very much.
If you're thinking I was somehow validating it's contents based on that, well, then you must have experienced a serious head trauma.

Oooh. I've got a strawmanning bullshitter trying to diagnose me as having head problems. I don't know how I'll live THAT down....

Well if someone in the IoM hasn't laid down the the basic rules concerning guard organization, then what does or doesn't make the Imperial Guard debate can be thrown straight out the fucking window and we can just go:
"They use what they have". Ok, so I might really going out of my way here. But isn't getting standard equipment what separates PDF from Guard units? And that should, at least to me, narrow it down enough so we can say that makes up the basic Guard regiment. Somewhere has to be
charts that show the basic composition of a guard regiment.
There can be several in fact. Armored, air mobile, Anti-air and so on.
This being the basic format that allows exceptions based on available materials.

Uh, in case you forgot, the Imperium is spanning numerous worlds, and if central administration of its member-states is difficult, what makes you think its armed forces will be less difficult? The Guard, by nature, has to be open ended when it comes to dealing with the troops it recruits from all those worlds. As many sources (such as the Tactica Imperialis) indicate, each world will have its own culture, language, doctrines, and the like. Millions of different PDFs lead to millions of different ideas of what makes a military. Just how deeply can you "standardize" given that? The same goes for equipment as well, since that will vary depending on industry, doctrines/tactics, and the like (More often than not, the equipment the Guard uses comes from where they are tithed from, initially at least.)

If there IS any "basic", then its probably the Cadians, given what White Rabbit has said, but even there it's probably not a concrete thing.

Are you telling me that the guard is the sole fortress of free thinking in the IOM ?
This being the very same IoM that's plagued by dogmatism?
Where any suggestion that are forward thinking and somehow
apart from the norm can get you declared heretic????
Flexible doctrine???
Can I have some that.. well whatever you're smoking?
The guard can have several doctrines. That does not make it flexible.

And of course, you go on to exhaustively list all the examples supporting your position... oh wait, you don't.

As far as "flexibility" goes, I take it you've never bothered to look at the kind of regiments that make it up? Are you trying to tell me that say the Cadians, Elysians, Tallarn, Armageddon, Tanith, and Mordian troops ar ethe same? That their heavy infantry is the exact same as the light infantry? That despite having millions of worlds they all act and fight the exact same way? Please, spare me this second dose of strawamannign bullshit.

Oh, where did I mention that individual fighters win battles?? That's right I didn't. I merely pointed out that mass tactics do not place great importance on individual skill.

Oh I see, so you're just resorting ot the ususal "40K tactics suck" excuse. Well gee, that GREATLY imrpoves your point even if you do fail to prove it yet again.

In case, and you did, fail to notice, I don't consider UPL to be absolute fact. But, and correct me if I'm wrong here, If a light guard regiment
made up of mostly infantry and lacks heavy weapons, is ordered to hold against an armored force. It will. It will die doing so. It will die doing so just because someone high enough said so. If they're told to dig holes and anyone leaving his will be considered a traitor and shot. They will.
Some really brave might even question those orders, but not many will.
It means battles are fought from the top. A battalion commander might be denied options because it doesn't say in holy writ that he can do it.

If they're ordered to do that, yes, they will do it. And if they lack the proper support or heavy weapons, yes they probably will die. And this has happened (What happened to the Ghosts in First and Only sounds an awful lot like that).

But of course this is where the competence (or lack thereof) of the commanders comes into play. Someone would be farily incompetent (or stupid) to get away with that.) An intelligent Guard officer will NOT issue such a blatantly foolish order unless he/she had no other choice (General Xarius from the Soul drinkers novels, or the Lord General in the Cain novels. The Ghosts have dealt with incompetent and competent Generals both.)

Retreating from an unfavorable position is easily viewed as cowardice, even if tactically sound.

Proof? I can think of a number of occasions when it's happened (First and Only, Ghostmaker, Necropolis, Warriors of Ultramar, Storm of Iron, Crimson Tears, ,etc.) The only regiment I can think of where "retreat is bad" would be Krieg.

No one cares how much men are wasted if the objective is taken.

Wrong again. Ciaphas Cain, General Xarius (Soul drinkers), Gaunt, the commander of the Regiment in Storm of Iron, etc.) The Guard isn't afraid to sacrifice men (who are, to be coldly practical, the most expendable resourcee in the Imperium) when the situation is considered important, but they don't throw men away on an objective for no reason (They will, for example, use orbital bombardment unless the objective is deemed important. Prime example of this distinction is "His Last Command" and the cities being foguth over.)

If you've got counter-examples, name them.

How in the name of fuck do you foster a sense tactical iniative when anything but following orders can be considered heretical?

I'm sorry, did you just claim that "following orders" is a bad thing in a military? Or is this just another one of your strawmen?

People facing the firing squad for acting without orders or acting
against orders but the result is favorable, and after the fact was the right thing to do.

Proof, please.

Completely rigid. Not a whole lot happens until some orders the regiment, the battalions, the companies, the platoons and finally the squads.
Is that rigid enough for you or should I continue?

Continue making shit up if it makes you feel better, but you'll only actually have an argument when you provide some proof.

Now a lot of those examples can be applied to real world armies (shocking). But when your whole command culture is based on top to bottom management and fear, I really don't see how you get it to be flexible.

I'm sorry, those were supposed to be "examples" rather than your vague claims of fact? I admit I do love the sneaking in the "Fear" bit, although that tends to fall apart when you have leaders like Urskar Creed or Commissar Yarrick (nevermind Gaunt or Cain- I'm sure they'd be dismissed as "outliers.")

I fail to see how you can miss the obvious. But here it is again. I don't think the primer is a defining standard. It has propaganda in it and it contradicts novels / other fluff, well hold the fucking press. So you think they're trying to brainwash people with false TOEs and false data about their weapons? No, didn't think so.

The "propoganda" bit (or its inaccuracies) is meant to highlight a fact I think everyone but you has grasped- the Primer is not the be-all, end-all of ohw the Guard is organized and is at best very loosely applied for the most parts (and in some cases, like gambling, not at all.) Even the fucking primer says that wht it itself says won't apply universally if you failed to notice. Which is why I fail to see how you can get off claiming what is "standard" for the Guard, even if you aren't going off the primer.

I'll point out that you can't tell the difference between a hop out of the universe and a statement lamenting the fact GW has no established order of canocity. So I threw in some personal opinion. Sue me.

Actually, 90% of your arggument thus far seems to be based on "personal opinion", given the utter paucity of proof to back up any of your claims. did you forget which fucking board you're on, perchance?

And the novels and other fluff is completely parody, humor and joke free and are all serious depictions of events. Right. You saying "that leaves us with the novels" means jack shit. I don't set the order of canonicity and neither do you. Taking the most consistent material is viewed as the best solution, but if I bring out 1 shot a minute lasguns from Space Hulk, you can scream from the top of your lungs "THAT'S NOT CANON", and I'll laugh at you.

Actually, I'm aware of the slower-firing lasguns in Space hulk, and I don't consider it contradictory in the least. It also says that none of the las weapons are capable of automatic or sustained fire. 3rd edition rules also hint at such weapons (semi-automatic lasguns.) Fewer/slower firing las weapons would point to ones that fire more powerful bolts, qutie likely over shorter durations (not just high energy, but higher power than a "sustained" beam could achieve.)

The funyn part is, these are things I've commented on before in all those little tech threads I've been doing, ,so again, anyone but you would have realized this. But its a nice try at misrepresenting me again.

Maybe my view of the guard has been influenced by the fact that they're like the red army in space. Only not as cool. I've read one 40K novel collection. That's more than enough. I will never, ever, read another 40K novel.

See, I don't really fucking care if you dislike the novels, or if your knowledge of 40K is limited because of that. What I do fucking care about is when you try to pass yourself off as having all the facts and refuse to admit to the obviously incomplete knowledge. and hiding behind claims of "ambiguous canon policy" doesn't excuse it either, in case you forgot which fucking forum you are debating on.

[Gunhead]

First off, make better use of the quote function. I get very annoyed when I have to sort out what the fuck the opponent is saying.

I was just pointing out that the uplifting primer says the rof for a lasgun is cyclic, and in case if some of our fellow posters are not familiar with the term I explained it to them. So there is a lot of variation what the rof of a lasgun is. What of it? If Xth legion of has a lasgun with a high rate of fire well good for them. If you're so sure that the ULP is incorrect then you can
easily show that the 480-720 rpm lasgun is the standard lasgun of the empire. I mean shit, you can have millions of guardsmen armed with continuous beam lasguns, and it would still be insanely rare if the other 99% is armed with the gun described in ULP.

Strawman ahoy! I never claimed it was standard, though feel free to pretend I did if it makes you feel better.

As for the ULP being "incorrect", do you mean beisdes the fact that they also screwed up the autopistol "rate of fire" (or are you going to tell me 60-150 rpm is "good" for an automatic weapon when you can fire faster just by semi-auto trigger pull?) Or, as I pointed out, a guy can fire faster with a lasgun on single-shot than with the "Cyclic" rate? There's also the well-establisehd fact that lasguns can vary dramatically in design?

I wasn't intentionally strawmaning there, sorry about that. I just wanted to know if lasgun with a rof of 480-720rpm or a very similar weapon could be considered the standard when it comes to lasgun performance. Different rof is easily explained by variations in design and yes I agree that lasguns vary in design. How much is the question. Most fluff support the notion that lasguns fire individual bolts and so rof plays a role when measuring how effective the weapon is yes? And since the IoM builds tanks AFVs and other military equipment according to STC designs it would make sense that lasguns are also churned out at astonishing rates at various locations.
So how much varied lasgun performance is due to a same weapon doing different things and how much is due to completely different design?
STC designs are considered to somewhat inviolate. But the great need for infantry weapons could outweigh those concerns so we get a variety of different types of lasguns being made. Now STC machines are rare and I doubt those plants are the sole source of lasguns but new lasgun factories that are built, build the same or very similar lasgun as resources permit.
So couldn't there be a "family" of lasguns that are almost identical as lasguns by very nature has to be a weapon that can be produced almost anywhere and the differences between weapons in that family would be small. By small I mean stuff like stocks, sights, built in accessories and rof.

As for the autogun, well. If we take the high value and say it's 150rpm sustained.... well I'm just guesstimating here, this depends on the shooter. But let's say 5 round bursts 3seconds per burst = 18seconds say 5 to reload that's 23seconds + 18 + 5 + 18 = 90 rounds (aimed bursts) 64 seconds. Well if the given rof for the autogun isn't cyclic it's not that bad.
150 rpm cyclic would be horrible for an automatic weapon.
Funny enough. if you ignore the cyclic part about the ULP lasgun's rof and assume it's sustained, it's not that bad either.

By relying on heavy weapons squads for fire support I mean their really hard hitting direct and indirect weapons that are all crew served weapons and are not spread across individual squads. I wasn't talking about squad support weapons. Individual heavy weapon placement would vary by situation and would by their very nature provide fire support to multiple squads. I however doubt that it's common to assign a heavy weapon to a squad. Squad support weapons are there to provide fire support to an individual squad.

And you know this how, exactly? All we know is that it can be done, we don't actually know the dispositions. If we go by the novels, it's fairly varied depending ON the source (the Ghosts, for example, make use of rocket launchers, whereas the Valhallans in the Cain novels make use of no specific heavy weapons I remember, but then again they're also entirely motorized like the Steel Legions.)

The only other source I could go by is inference. As noted in other threads I have done, given the probable number of Hive Worlds in the Imperium, you can expect a disproportionate number of troops to come from those places. A fair bit of which will probably be Hive Gangers. If you've ever bothered to read a Necromunda novel or had a look at the Necromunda rules, you'd note the following:

- few Necromundan gangs have more than 20 members and most have fewer than a dozen (so for the most part, they qualify as a squad.)

- Each gang will typically have at least one or two heavies - big, burly strong folk (kinda like Bragg or others like him) who are designed to carry and employ those heavy weapons, sometimes alone and sometimes (IIRC) with assistance. This can include heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, autocannon, lascannon, and missile launchers. Some gangs like the Goliath make use of "heavy" weapons like stubbers and autocannons as regular weapons, because they're freakishly strong.)

Given that disposition, its probable that "hive gang" regiments would have quite a few heavy weapons available at squad level (if for no other reason than they startted out with that before being conscripted.) I won't even bother commenting on "Goliath" regiments....

That's about the only other way I can possibly see establishing any sorrt of comparative baseline, and its still somewhat conjectural even then. But its no worse than what you appear to "assume" as true.

Fair enough. Then the number of heavy weapons a squad can have would depend on the availability of said weapons. If the above is true then autocannons and hvy. stubbers should be the most common as organic heavy weapons a squad has. Mortars, lascannons and missile launchers
are a bit different ballgame. Now a squad has around 10 men. 1 mortar alone has a crew of three or something similar. Same for the missile launcher. Not sure about the lascannon, but the point I'm making is this. if the squad is 10 people your heavy weapon takes 30% of the squad to operate. All the said weapons are best utilized out of enemy infantry's range. Mortars can be and should be deployed so far back that they're safe from direct fire. Same goes for missiles and to a lesser extent lascannons. Even if taking into account the possibility that said weapons are lighter than RL equivalents they'd still be heavy and bulky. Keeping up with the more lightly equipped infantry would be a challenge. This is considering just the weapon itself. Mortars and missile launchers also require ammo. I don't know about the ammo requirements of a lascannon.
Even if the squad is big enough so the manpower drain is a non issue, the lighter infantry is still faster than the heavy weapons crew. If you're constantly forced to wait around for them to appear, what good are they.
Mortars and missile launchers to a lesser extent are reliant on radios ( or what ever passes for a radio in 40K).
There should be, and I believe there is, weapons available similar to rpg-7 and lt. mortars. But when I say heavy weapons I mean stuff like the TOW-2, 120mm Mortars and such.

Now don't get me wrong. I really think every Imp. squad should come with an integral support weapon that fills the niche of a machine gun, and I've always wondered why they don't have one. Imperial heavy weapons classifications do not differ from real life all that much. If the case turns out to be that they don't need one it's a whole different story.

Again, who says they don't? If they don't have "machine gun" las-weapons (even though Wargear suggests otherwise), then it's simply a matter of relying on stubbers or autoweapons (some of which fall quite readily into the "machine gun" range of things.) Or are you going to tell me that the Guard doesn't use autoguns or stubbers now?

What version of wargear would that be? I have one right here but so far no mention / hint of las machineguns. I was just under the impression that stubbers and autocannons are not that common amongst squads because they rely on heavy ammunition. I really was / am perplexed why no one has bothered to make up a weapon that can in a pinch use lasgun powerpacks.

So it depends on the regiment. How's that inconsistent with platoons not having an organic heavy weapons squad as standard?

Again, because you don't FUCKING listen, I'll point it out: squads can have their own heavy weapons crews. Even command squads. This is in addition to the heavy weapons that the HQ/command platoon might have
and the heavy weapons platoons themselves.

I think I covered this back there, but it seems that the main disagreement is what is or isn't a heavy weapon.

Again. I was just pointing out what the UPL says. Can there be platoons that have integrated hvy weapons squads? Why the fuck not. If the catachans and the Ghosts use a different TOE so what. They're still a piddling percentage of the imp guard as a whole.

Provide numbers to back up that claim. I'm getting fucking tired of you and your broad-based declarations of what is "true" despite the fact you fail to provide anything resembling proof to back it up.

Fair enough. I don't have the books at hand at the moment so I withdraw
what I said above.

You don't see it? It's really simple. "If it's worth doing, then send at least a platoon to do it." A squad can be wiped out in a single ambush. A well placed mine will do it. A squad that has 4 wounded is not ready for action.
A single sniper can destroy a squad. A single squad is very alone and vulnerable. A platoon has enough men and firepower to fend off a larger attacking force, can perform any task that doesn't require the full company ( tasks like check that village, protect that village, scout ahead etc.) and can fulfill those roles even if some casualties are taken.
The guard can easily spare the manpower and using anything smaller wouldn't make much sense. Special ops are a whole different story.

Oh no, I've just been presented with a bunch of unverified assertions about how the guard SHOULD operate, what am I going to do?

oh yes, ignore it, becuase its' unverified assertions without a scrap of proof.

Oh, and what does this have to do with you claiming that "the smallest tactical unit they utilize", given that they DO have smaller units (as pointed out to you not only by myself, but also by Lonestar.) Given your prior strawman, I smell a red herring.

Ignore it all you want. At least the writers of the Taros campaign seem to agree with me. Action depicted shows platoons supported by their heavy weapons squads slugging it out with the Tau. With individual squads working in unison and In a specific instance a platoon is supported by two stormtrooper squads. This is what I mean when I say "smallest tactical unit". And before more of this squads can have their own heavy weapons prancing about. All ToEs in the Taros campaign place heavy weapons in heavy weapons platoons or singular heavy weapons squads. Mortars, Lascannons, Heavy bolters or autocannons are all in their own squads. Some of these squads are broken into individual fireteams. I'll write up some highlights when I have the chance.

Well if someone in the IoM hasn't laid down the the basic rules concerning guard organization, then what does or doesn't make the Imperial Guard debate can be thrown straight out the fucking window and we can just go:
"They use what they have". Ok, so I might really going out of my way here. But isn't getting standard equipment what separates PDF from Guard units? And that should, at least to me, narrow it down enough so we can say that makes up the basic Guard regiment. Somewhere has to be
charts that show the basic composition of a guard regiment.
There can be several in fact. Armored, air mobile, Anti-air and so on.
This being the basic format that allows exceptions based on available materials.

Uh, in case you forgot, the Imperium is spanning numerous worlds, and if central administration of its member-states is difficult, what makes you think its armed forces will be less difficult? The Guard, by nature, has to be open ended when it comes to dealing with the troops it recruits from all those worlds. As many sources (such as the Tactica Imperialis) indicate, each world will have its own culture, language, doctrines, and the like. Millions of different PDFs lead to millions of different ideas of what makes a military. Just how deeply can you "standardize" given that? The same goes for equipment as well, since that will vary depending on industry, doctrines/tactics, and the like (More often than not, the equipment the Guard uses comes from where they are tithed from, initially at least.)

If there IS any "basic", then its probably the Cadians, given what White Rabbit has said, but even there it's probably not a concrete thing.

I took a look at the Taros campaign TOEs and they are very similar in appearance, and they're similar between jump infantry, armored and regular regiments . So similar in fact that it would be a miracle if they don't have the same point of origin. Hmm... maybe it's not so much about the organization as it what the troops need come equipped with. For example a regiment needs to have x amount of armored vehicles to qualify as an armored regiment. Well maybe it's not a concrete thing, but I'd find it odd if given chance the "non standard" regiments aren't molded into the form the emperor has decreed.

Are you telling me that the guard is the sole fortress of free thinking in the IOM ?
This being the very same IoM that's plagued by dogmatism?
Where any suggestion that are forward thinking and somehow
apart from the norm can get you declared heretic????
Flexible doctrine???
Can I have some that.. well whatever you're smoking?
The guard can have several doctrines. That does not make it flexible.

And of course, you go on to exhaustively list all the examples supporting your position... oh wait, you don't.

As far as "flexibility" goes, I take it you've never bothered to look at the kind of regiments that make it up? Are you trying to tell me that say the Cadians, Elysians, Tallarn, Armageddon, Tanith, and Mordian troops ar ethe same? That their heavy infantry is the exact same as the light infantry? That despite having millions of worlds they all act and fight the exact same way? Please, spare me this second dose of strawamannign bullshit.

I do believe that all of the above Cadians, Elysians, Tallarn, Armageddon, Tanith and Mordians all have their own doctrines which they adhere to.
Doctrine is what defines an army. It tells us what it can do. As such it's not a terribly flexible thing. Ok, maybe I was painting with a too big of a brush back there when talking about the guard, so I'll use a smaller one. Taking the Taros example again. They advance over the desert with scouts in front infantry following with tank support and artillery at the back. Classic mass tactics. When trouble is encountered the order to do something about it comes from the army HQ. Order is relayed down the chain and changes are made. But the iniative doesn't come from the regimental HQs or brigade HQs. I think I can dig up more later.

Oh, where did I mention that individual fighters win battles?? That's right I didn't. I merely pointed out that mass tactics do not place great importance on individual skill.

Oh I see, so you're just resorting ot the ususal "40K tactics suck" excuse. Well gee, that GREATLY imrpoves your point even if you do fail to prove it yet again.

Whoa there nelly!! I've never said 40K tactics suck. It's just the opposite. My whole point was they don't piss about with individual squads. When a jobs need doing they have the fucking sense to commit enough so it gets done. They train their men enough so they can fill their role and leave special shit to special people. When squads are committed as a platoon
they're supported by each other and whatever the platoon can muster in addition. That's mass tactics. But it's sensible mass tactics. Because after that it's the company and so on.

In case, and you did, fail to notice, I don't consider UPL to be absolute fact. But, and correct me if I'm wrong here, If a light guard regiment
made up of mostly infantry and lacks heavy weapons, is ordered to hold against an armored force. It will. It will die doing so. It will die doing so just because someone high enough said so. If they're told to dig holes and anyone leaving his will be considered a traitor and shot. They will.
Some really brave might even question those orders, but not many will.
It means battles are fought from the top. A battalion commander might be denied options because it doesn't say in holy writ that he can do it.

If they're ordered to do that, yes, they will do it. And if they lack the proper support or heavy weapons, yes they probably will die. And this has happened (What happened to the Ghosts in First and Only sounds an awful lot like that).

But of course this is where the competence (or lack thereof) of the commanders comes into play. Someone would be farily incompetent (or stupid) to get away with that.) An intelligent Guard officer will NOT issue such a blatantly foolish order unless he/she had no other choice (General Xarius from the Soul drinkers novels, or the Lord General in the Cain novels. The Ghosts have dealt with incompetent and competent Generals both.)

I agree. This is what separates the good commanders from the bad.
Of course the brass fighting over the next promotion and backroom politics
can cause major headaches. This was implied in Imp armor III

Retreating from an unfavorable position is easily viewed as cowardice, even if tactically sound.

Proof? I can think of a number of occasions when it's happened (First and Only, Ghostmaker, Necropolis, Warriors of Ultramar, Storm of Iron, Crimson Tears, ,etc.) The only regiment I can think of where "retreat is bad" would be Krieg.

Fair enough. Dying for nothing is always a bad idea and maybe the "no surrender" cliche has been touted around too much without substance behind it.

No one cares how much men are wasted if the objective is taken.

Wrong again. Ciaphas Cain, General Xarius (Soul drinkers), Gaunt, the commander of the Regiment in Storm of Iron, etc.) The Guard isn't afraid to sacrifice men (who are, to be coldly practical, the most expendable resourcee in the Imperium) when the situation is considered important, but they don't throw men away on an objective for no reason (They will, for example, use orbital bombardment unless the objective is deemed important. Prime example of this distinction is "His Last Command" and the cities being foguth over.)

If you've got counter-examples, name them.

First comes to mind is the imperial retreat from Taros where equipment is valued over men. Although this is not wholly out of line with the mass use of material and men. The general refusal to negotiate or with opponents you cannot negotiate with to withdraw. Again, the Taros campaign highlights this. The empire had it's butt kicked. After the battle was already decided they still sent a last ditch force to assasinate the opposing leader.
Which only increased losses when the Tau came for revenge.

How in the name of fuck do you foster a sense tactical iniative when anything but following orders can be considered heretical?

I'm sorry, did you just claim that "following orders" is a bad thing in a military? Or is this just another one of your strawmen?

No. I did not. An example would Principe Hekate who almost got handed the death sentence for acting against orders. Even after he did save a depot, including a titan, from destruction. Did he break the rules? Yes he did. Did it work? Yes it did. So punishing him is quite justified. But I don't think Titan pilots grow on trees. Hell, I know Titans don't grow on trees.
All that's said and done the commander of the base even says that he'd rather see the depot destroyed that see imperial creed broken.
So I'm all following orders, but If this is taken as an example I'd say it's pretty bleak. He was saved only by the fact that he had already "bonded with the titan" and killing him would be in effect killing the titan.

People facing the firing squad for acting without orders or acting
against orders but the result is favorable, and after the fact was the right thing to do.

Proof, please.

See above.

Completely rigid. Not a whole lot happens until some orders the regiment, the battalions, the companies, the platoons and finally the squads.
Is that rigid enough for you or should I continue?

Continue making shit up if it makes you feel better, but you'll only actually have an argument when you provide some proof.

I mentioned the taros campaign and I'll make a separate post for quotes.

Now a lot of those examples can be applied to real world armies (shocking). But when your whole command culture is based on top to bottom management and fear, I really don't see how you get it to be flexible.

I'm sorry, those were supposed to be "examples" rather than your vague claims of fact? I admit I do love the sneaking in the "Fear" bit, although that tends to fall apart when you have leaders like Urskar Creed or Commissar Yarrick (nevermind Gaunt or Cain- I'm sure they'd be dismissed as "outliers.")

So commissars are there to spread love and joy to their underlings?
I think any sane person would be a bit worried if there are people about who can shoot you for a perceived slight.
Now I really don't think five people could considered an all encompassing representation.

I fail to see how you can miss the obvious. But here it is again. I don't think the primer is a defining standard. It has propaganda in it and it contradicts novels / other fluff, well hold the fucking press. So you think they're trying to brainwash people with false TOEs and false data about their weapons? No, didn't think so.

The "propoganda" bit (or its inaccuracies) is meant to highlight a fact I think everyone but you has grasped- the Primer is not the be-all, end-all of ohw the Guard is organized and is at best very loosely applied for the most parts (and in some cases, like gambling, not at all.) Even the fucking primer says that wht it itself says won't apply universally if you failed to notice. Which is why I fail to see how you can get off claiming what is "standard" for the Guard, even if you aren't going off the primer.

Since I'm not relying on the primer a whole lot I think above is previously covered.

Maybe my view of the guard has been influenced by the fact that they're like the red army in space. Only not as cool. I've read one 40K novel collection. That's more than enough. I will never, ever, read another 40K novel.

See, I don't really fucking care if you dislike the novels, or if your knowledge of 40K is limited because of that. What I do fucking care about is when you try to pass yourself off as having all the facts and refuse to admit to the obviously incomplete knowledge. and hiding behind claims of "ambiguous canon policy" doesn't excuse it either, in case you forgot which fucking forum you are debating on.

Well I'm sorry about what I said back there. My intention was not to rip at
anyone's hobby. I blame alcohol and sleep deprivation. Much of the info was taken from the Imperial Armor III. As I said before I'll make a separate post for quotes when I get the chance.

And fuck GW for having such a fucking ambiguous canon policy.


-Gunhead

[Lost Soal]

WRT Larkin and 1 shot Hotshots, where exactly was this stated, because of the incidents I can recall I am certain multiple shots are demonstrated in:
Ghostmaker, Necropolis, Honour Guard, Guns of Tanith & Straight Silver.
For the rest, I just can't remember.

The only Las weapon I know of which is stated as one shot per pack is the Lascannon

[Connor MacLeod]

I'll dela with gunhead (again) after I get back from work or something. I'm just goign to touch on a few things I neglected to deal with before

WRT Larkin and 1 shot Hotshots, where exactly was this stated, because of the incidents I can recall I am certain multiple shots are demonstrated in:
Ghostmaker, Necropolis, Honour Guard, Guns of Tanith & Straight Silver.
For the rest, I just can't remember.

The only Las weapon I know of which is stated as one shot per pack is the Lascannon

I'd have to check, but the "one use" hotshots started showing up sometime after "Honour Guard." It gets mentioned specifically IIRC in Guns of Tanith, but I know it definitely shows up in Sabbat Martyr.

What you may be thinking of are the so called "low-volt" packs, which Larkin uses and are multiple shot.

[Lost Soal]

I'll dela with gunhead (again) after I get back from work or something. I'm just goign to touch on a few things I neglected to deal with before

WRT Larkin and 1 shot Hotshots, where exactly was this stated, because of the incidents I can recall I am certain multiple shots are demonstrated in:
Ghostmaker, Necropolis, Honour Guard, Guns of Tanith & Straight Silver.
For the rest, I just can't remember.

The only Las weapon I know of which is stated as one shot per pack is the Lascannon

I'd have to check, but the "one use" hotshots started showing up sometime after "Honour Guard." It gets mentioned specifically IIRC in Guns of Tanith, but I know it definitely shows up in Sabbat Martyr.

What you may be thinking of are the so called "low-volt" packs, which Larkin uses and are multiple shot.

In guns of Tanith he and or Jessi Banda uses multiple shots against the shield defended Chaos Commander, before shooting the chains of one of the Tanith prisoners, all without reload.

[Connor MacLeod]

The munitorum manual also manages to make explosive autocannon shells "lost technology" unfortunately.

What kind of explosive, though? I'd be hard pressed to think they can't make "chemical" explosives given that they can make autogun, bolter, heavy bolter, and battle cannon ammo that is explosive... Nevermind tube charges or hand grenades.

Which is pretty stupid, given the umpteen other examples of explosive autocannon weaponry within the guard, from codex to rulebook to novel.

Or comparative technologies (again bolt weapons and battle cannon.)

on the other hand, it also officially divides meltaguns into two distinct types, the "pyrum petrol" superduper fusion flamer, or fusion gun, and the sorta microwave beam weapon. (i.e. the one on the Dreadnaught multimelta which can widen the focus) Hell, it even leaves it open for more types IIRC.

Makes sense.

The Manual also goes for the "explosive laser shell" version of lasweaponry.

You mean that's what it considers a lasgun, or is that just a nother type? I have to admit the existence o fsuch weapons is not wholly "problematic" from my viewpoint, since there are some lasgun calcs or characteristics that bug me extremely unless they were a "laser shell" type. I generlaly just liken those weapons to being similar to the needle/las weapons and the Eldar Mandiblasters anyhow.

[Connor MacLeod]

In guns of Tanith he and or Jessi Banda uses multiple shots against the shield defended Chaos Commander, before shooting the chains of one of the Tanith prisoners, all without reload.

But were they using the hot shots or low volts?

[Lost Soal]

In guns of Tanith he and or Jessi Banda uses multiple shots against the shield defended Chaos Commander, before shooting the chains of one of the Tanith prisoners, all without reload.

But were they using the hot shots or low volts?

While its not stated specifically, their on an assassination mission, it is inconceivable that they would be using low volt, especially since Larkin trys shooting chaos commander after seeing Jesse's shot bounce off his shield.
The low volts were only used when shooting the birds in Honour Guard and possibly the beginning of Guns during the training routine.

[NecronLord]

Imperial Munitorum Manual Quotes Pt 1

Printed by the Emperor’s Own Press on Ultima Libris
This revised edition first published 945. M41

One wonders if this refers to some kind of library planet. Also of note is the date. The footnotes throughout the book refer to events previously dated 999.M41. Unfortunately, the full check digit for date synchronisation is not included here, so we aren’t able to compare the accuracy of such a date.

Preface.
By Steward Rozencranz
Chancellor of the Estate Imperium
[…]
It has been put together by the most dedicated clerks and officers of the Departmento Munitorum for the benefit of all soldiers within the Imperial Guard, from the lowliest Guardsman to the most senior Lord Militant, for the information contained in this book should be understood and appreciated by all within the Imperium. Only those who truly understand the full panoply of regulations, bylaws, subsections and full requisitioning procedures can properly appreciate the mighty labours that ensure the armies of the Imperium are able to take the illumination of the Emperor to the far corners of the galaxy.

On the authority of the authours of the book, also the Chancellor of the estate Imperium as of 945.M41 is Steward Rozencranz. He may or may not be a High Lord of Terra, but is extremely important within the organisation nonetheless. He did not personally write the book, but may have had some input elsewhere – this is of note because a footnote on Page 7 refers to Ignace Karkasy’s Meditations on the Elegiac Hero which apparently exists in some places, though most copies are lost. Presumably at the very highest ranks of the Departmento Munitorum, knowledge of this character from the Heresy series remains (The Council of Terra is also mentioned by name on page 6). Steward Rozencranz seems to have a remarkably outgoing attitude on the secrecy of information, although nothing truly classified is revealed, and this is contradicted by the warnings about disclosure of the book, perhaps he is a comparative liberal.

If every soldier is given the chance to read this book as this suggests (and indeed, there are areas for supervisors to stamp once they’ve read, and presumably understand, it) they would actually be quite well educated on the logistics, of the Imperium

In recognition of the great importance of this work, no less than three seats amongst the High Lords of Terra were given to the most senior officers of the Departmento Munitorum: The Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard, The Lord Commander of the Estate Imperium and the Master of the Administratum. For a time this central command was organised from Terra, but as the demands of a galaxy-spanning empire grew more strident, it soon became clear that control of all aspects of the Guard was virtually impossible.
Given the vagaries of warp communication and travel, it is difficult enough to ensure that far flung worlds remain loyal to the Emperor, so controlling the day to day activities of these planets is a hopeless task. Because of this, the building blocks of the Imperial Guard are firmly based on the military forces of the individual worlds. The Ministorum governs some Imperial worlds, while others are ruled by the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Of these worlds we shall not trouble ourselves, for their methods of accounting and logistical mechanics are arcane and Byzantine.

[…]

By using the example of the Cadian 91st, we shall outline the methods by which a regiment is raised and supplied, its structures, the organisation procedures that allow it to wage war, and the conduct required of its officers when dealing with the agents of the Departmento Munitorum.

It may be the pot calling the kettle black, but the Munitorum apparently thinks the logistics of the Ministorum and Mechanicus are complex. It also seems to suggest that the Chancellor was present in the first convocation of the Lords of Terra, though this may be supposition. We know from other sources that the Chancellor of the Estate Imperium is one of the ‘optional’ positions.

³The infamous Respero’s World incident proves just how deadly such massive variations can be. When the Praalian Chorsairs encountered scouts from the Tegumen Castellans they mistook them for hostiles – not recognising their armaments, armour or doctrines. Records of the ensuing battle speak of some ten thousand dead before the truth of the matter was realised.

4Rumours persist that there were darker reasons for it being desirable that no imperial force could look to its own resupply in these times, but evidence of such cannot be substantiated and they are therefore not within the scope of this publication.

The passage to which the first footnote is linked seems to suggest that this incident happened during the Great Crusade and is still remembered. Regardless, it shows why the Munitorum is keen to proliferate the same equipment, perhaps explaining the near-ubiquity of Cadian pattern equipment. The second passage, while it may be counter-propaganda to avoid mention of the Heresy, which isn’t mentioned, shows that interestingly, the Munitorum personnel who wrote the book at least understand the concept of evidence in such matters.

Though individual regiments are normally commanded by their own officers (Usually drawn from the nobility of their homeworld) this is not always practical when dozens of regiments are mustered. In such cases, a higher level of command is provided by the general staff of the Departmento Munitorum. This staff is generally formed from the best of the officers in the tithed regiments recommended by their previous services (or their family connections in some cases) and they receive additional training to prepare them for the greater role in commanding armies.
At the highest levels of command, these men will be known as Lord General Militant or Lord Commander Militant. However, there are many other titles in use, though this is rarely a problem as such high appointments are singular in nature, with only one Lord General active in a sector at any time. In some (thankfully) rare occasions, the crisis will be of such magnitude that a higher rank still will be required. This rank is known as Warmaster.
Such a grand title is reserved for only the mightiest crusades and even the Departmento Munitorum is forbidden from bestowing such a title upon a soldier without the express permission of the High Lords of Terra. Such mighty individuals wield a power second only to the Emperor and not lightly does the Departmento Munitorum request such an appointment, for the position carries with it a carte blanche to do what must be done. Due to the unrivalled power of this office there is only ever one Warmaster at a time and though the honour of such a title is beyond measure, there are still those who question its relevance in the Imperium of today, given past, legendary associations of betrayal that cling to it. Perhaps because of this, some individuals accorded this great honour have chosen to use the synonymous title of ‘Lord Solar.’

Of interest here is that above the level of Colonel, officers appear to come from a special pool provided by the Munitorum, and that one can get into this by family connections (quite whether this is some kind of genetic selection, or simple corruption, is unclear). Reiteration of Lord Solar = Warmaster, though we aren’t told if there is a naval equivalent. Note the lack of direct mention of Horus or the Heresy.

One soldier in every ten is recruited into the Interior Guard, regardless of ability and achievements. As a result, some of the most able soldiers spend their entire military service on Cadia, and the soldiers of the Cadian Planetary Defence Force are among the most effective and skilled fighting men in the Imperium. Seek to emulate the Cadian soldier in every aspect of your life and you will be setting a fine example to your fellows!
[…]
The Cadian 91st were raised in response to a mighty invasion that smashed through the Cadian Gate in recent times, but one that was routed utterly by the forces of the Glorious Emperor. A great battle was fought on the soil of Cadia, but regardless of rumours to the contrary, final victory was achived through the courage and sacrifice of Guardsmen just like you! That millions died is a small price to pay for victory and every warrior who died did so willingly, with the Battle Hymn of the Imperium on his lips and a fire in his heart!

Cadia’s PDF is apparently not to be fucked with. Not that we didn’t know this. The Munitorum claims that the invaders were driven from Cadia. While this is probably simple propaganda, I’d like to think it is actually a truthful account of what happened after the period we already know about, given Imperial space superiority.

the number and types of troops vary tremendously from world to world. The forces of a multi-billion population hive world such as Armageddon are vastly different from a sparsely populated world like Ryza³

²During the brief, but bloody war against invading orks on the world of Ryza, an army was raised from worlds such as Catachan, Ulani, Barac and Delma’lin, all of which lie within ten thousand light years of Cadia.

³During the H’rud Incursion of 744.M39, forces raised from Armageddon numbered over 1,000,000 men while those of the nearby agri-world of Chemal were barely enough to form a company.

Even a sparsely populated world can be reinforced with troops from up to ten thousand light years away, apparently in a ‘brief’ war. A founding from Armageddon numbered more than a million soldiers.

Nearly 9,000 courageous Cadians wishing to enlist reported to Campus Bellum and presented themselves to the Officio Medicae for physical evaluation and measurement of any psychic potential. The recruits that passed the stringent medical and genetic testing 9in this case 98% - no weaklings on Cadia!) were then sworn in as Guardsmen and billeted within the Kasr itself.

Physical, psychic and genetic tests are required, at least in this instance, to join the Guard.

Just some social stuff for now, really. I’ll pick up tomorrow, where we get onto the actual equipping of the Guard, and so on.

[Teleros]

STC designs are considered to somewhat inviolate.

Hardly. There's enough evidence of them being changed. Witness the Predator Annihilator, the Land Raider Helios & Crusader, etc etc etc. Granted, the AdMech is very conservative when it comes to adapting designs, but given thousands of years of lasgun use across the entire Galaxy, well I imagine you'd get plenty of different designs and variations.

1 mortar alone has a crew of three or something similar.

Most tabletop IG heavy weapons have a crew of two. This is also seen in some of the Ghost novels as well IIRC, although there are exceptions like Bragg.
Also remember that in practice, you're not tying up 20% of the squad with a single weapon. The guy helping you with the lascannon can be firing his own lasgun whilst you lay into the tanks and whatnot.

At least the writers of the Taros campaign seem to agree with me. Action depicted shows platoons supported by their heavy weapons squads slugging it out with the Tau. With individual squads working in unison and In a specific instance a platoon is supported by two stormtrooper squads. This is what I mean when I say "smallest tactical unit". And before more of this squads can have their own heavy weapons prancing about. All ToEs in the Taros campaign place heavy weapons in heavy weapons platoons or singular heavy weapons squads. Mortars, Lascannons, Heavy bolters or autocannons are all in their own squads. Some of these squads are broken into individual fireteams. I'll write up some highlights when I have the chance.

1. It's a single campaign.
2. Where's the evidence of the IG commanders sending a whole platoon out to engage, say, a Fire Warrior squad? If the enemy force requires a platoon-strength response they will send a platoon, but if it doesn't they'll send a squad or two instead.

but I'd find it odd if given chance the "non standard" regiments aren't molded into the form the emperor has decreed

Why? Often the organisation is half the reason a "non-standard" regiment functions as well as it does.

whole point was they don't piss about with individual squads. When a jobs need doing they have the fucking sense to commit enough so it gets done.

Then why do they have squads at all? Why does Cain's Valhallan regiment split its squads into even smaller 5 man fire-teams? Surely if you're right they'd take every single building with the whole platoon ... oh wait, they DO piss about with individual squads, and they STILL manage to commit enough to get the job done.

An example would Principe Hekate who almost got handed the death sentence for acting against orders.

So, one example for, and how many examples against now?

So commissars are there to spread love and joy to their underlings?
I think any sane person would be a bit worried if there are people about who can shoot you for a perceived slight.
Now I really don't think five people could considered an all encompassing representation.

How many other named commissars are there out there? What we have is the classic image of the humourless Commissar vs the reality on the ground. Even Commissar Hark does this, and he's considered a lot tougher than Gaunt is. Same with that idiot one with those Tallarns in the Ciaphas Cain novel (the name escapes me ATM).

Since I'm not relying on the primer a whole lot I think above is previously covered.

Yeah, you're going off the Primer & the Taros campaign. Connor's going off how many books again ?

[Lost Soal]

How many other named commissars are there out there? What we have is the classic image of the humourless Commissar vs the reality on the ground. Even Commissar Hark does this, and he's considered a lot tougher than Gaunt is. Same with that idiot one with those Tallarns in the Ciaphas Cain novel (the name escapes me ATM).

From Necropolis, the entire VPHC plus the actual Guard Commisar, forget his name) stationed on world. They executed soilders and civilians who were scared and tried to execute General Grizmund and his staff because he went via a different route to engage the enemy.
In Honour Guard Hark would have executed one of the Ghosts for running from a Baneblade if Gaunt hadn't interfered. It is Gaunts influence which softened up Hark a bit.
In Armour of Contempt, the Commissar leading Dalin Criids unit weilds a whip driving them forwards and executed someone for dropping his Lasgun
In one of the short stories from LEt The Galaxy Burn, a commissar wanted to execute a Catachan Sgt for initiating a tactical retreat while in another story from it a Commissar attempts to shoot a naval crewman who is evacuating an exploding ship after the order to abondon ship has been given by the Captain.

Its at best a 50-50 split between the arseholes and the Gaunts but almost certainly favours the arseholes numbers wise.

[Tanasinn]

I rather imagine things favor dickish commissars; Cain, for example, frequently mentions the more violent tactics of his fellows, how they typically find themselves dead at the hands of their own soldiers, and how commissars (himself included) tend to get a very cool reception at best when joining a regiment. One particular case of this dislike can be found when Cain is first given an assignment and his reception consists of a bottom-ranked smelly guy no one likes with skin and hygene issues.

[Teleros]

I'm well aware they can be brutally harsh taskmasters, but my point is that there are enough examples of commissars inspiring the men under their command (to say nothing of Cain reciting various platitudes he learnt in the Schola Progenium to do just this), hence Gunhead is quite simply wrong when he says:

But when your whole command culture is based on top to bottom management and fear

[andrewgpaul]

Not to mention, the most famous Commissar in the Imperium is lauded for his inspirational and leadership abilities, not his skills as a dispenser of capital punishment. I am talking, of course, of Cpmmissar Yarrick.

Of course, I'm not denying that he almost certainly shot his fair share of cowardly guardsmen, but he did demonstrate that he had more than one string to his bow.

[Gunhead]

STC designs are considered to somewhat inviolate.

Hardly. There's enough evidence of them being changed. Witness the Predator Annihilator, the Land Raider Helios & Crusader, etc etc etc. Granted, the AdMech is very conservative when it comes to adapting designs, but given thousands of years of lasgun use across the entire Galaxy, well I imagine you'd get plenty of different designs and variations.

That's why I said somewhat. Lasgun has been the weapon of the guard
for a long fucking time, and I have no doubt that there are ungodly amount of variants floating about. I'm merely intrested if there is a version that could be considered the most widespread and is it common enough to be regarded as a standard. Or at least if the most common types are even roughly similar. A bit like the AK47 and weapons that are based on it.

1 mortar alone has a crew of three or something similar.

Most tabletop IG heavy weapons have a crew of two. This is also seen in some of the Ghost novels as well IIRC, although there are exceptions like Bragg.

Also remember that in practice, you're not tying up 20% of the squad with a single weapon. The guy helping you with the lascannon can be firing his own lasgun whilst you lay into the tanks and whatnot.

So it has a crew of two. I'm fine with that. But bringing your heavy weapons, especially mortars, so close to the front you're taking away their biggest advantage. If you're mortars are being targeted by enemy small arms fire you're doing it wrong. With a lasgun the above might hold true, but with ammo fed weapons the supporting personnel would be observing fire, carrying ammo or simply be on the watch for the enemy who might be trying to sneak up on them.
Heavy weapons should always have infantry screening them.
This is true in real life and it should be true in 40K. I for one can see no reason why the above wouldn't be true.

At least the writers of the Taros campaign seem to agree with me. Action depicted shows platoons supported by their heavy weapons squads slugging it out with the Tau. With individual squads working in unison and In a specific instance a platoon is supported by two stormtrooper squads. This is what I mean when I say "smallest tactical unit". And before more of this squads can have their own heavy weapons prancing about. All ToEs in the Taros campaign place heavy weapons in heavy weapons platoons or singular heavy weapons squads. Mortars, Lascannons, Heavy bolters or autocannons are all in their own squads. Some of these squads are broken into individual fireteams. I'll write up some highlights when I have the chance.

1. It's a single campaign.
2. Where's the evidence of the IG commanders sending a whole platoon out to engage, say, a Fire Warrior squad? If the enemy force requires a platoon-strength response they will send a platoon, but if it doesn't they'll send a squad or two instead.

Yes it's a single campaign. I just find it gives a nice round view of how the guard operates. It also gives info on marine deployment and naval operations.

If I say smallest tactical unit, it doesn't mean squads aren't used.
Squads are what make up platoons after all. Squads operate as a part of a platoon so they have someone to back them up if the going gets rough.
Squads acting as a platoon also gives the platoon commander the ability to
project firepower and have interlocking heavy weapons positions.
Singular squads are useful when doing recon, infiltrating or other more specialized operations that rely on stealth and fast movement.
When the imps captured a water processing plant they sent in a platoon supported by two stormtrooper squads. After they had taken the objective they sent squads to sweep out the stragglers. So individual squads we're used but only after the main fighting was over. And even then they sent squads which implies they were not acting alone but rather in unison.

but I'd find it odd if given chance the "non standard" regiments aren't molded into the form the emperor has decreed

Why? Often the organisation is half the reason a "non-standard" regiment functions as well as it does.

Bah. What happened to the good old fit the mold spirit prevalent in 40K.
"A nail that sticks out is hammered down I say." If what you say is true then the IoM has gone soft. You disappoint me.

whole point was they don't piss about with individual squads. When a jobs need doing they have the fucking sense to commit enough so it gets done.

Then why do they have squads at all? Why does Cain's Valhallan regiment split its squads into even smaller 5 man fire-teams? Surely if you're right they'd take every single building with the whole platoon ... oh wait, they DO piss about with individual squads, and they STILL manage to commit enough to get the job done.

And that 5 man fire team sent into the building alone? No it's not.
If you're storming a building it's not enough you take it. You also have to hold it. And quite possibly few buildings around it. Or the building might be big enough to require the full platoon.
If the initial assault fails a platoon still has enough to go for it again.
Or in general the squad or squads doing the work benefit from the support the rest of the platoon can give. So the total commitment to the task should still be the full platoon.

If I wasn't clear previously I'll try to be this time. When I say smallest tactical unit is the platoon I don't mean individual squads aren't used.
It means the total commitment of troops to any combat task should be at least a platoon. Individual squads should be used when the task requires it, but most commonly these tasks are best left to specialist units.

An example would Principe Hekate who almost got handed the death sentence for acting against orders.

So, one example for, and how many examples against now?

Well from you none. And I was going for the top with this one. If they shoot a titan pilot for saving the titan and the base why would a some low grunt get of the hook. Besides Connor asked I provide an example and I did.

So commissars are there to spread love and joy to their underlings?
I think any sane person would be a bit worried if there are people about who can shoot you for a perceived slight.
Now I really don't think five people could considered an all encompassing representation.

How many other named commissars are there out there? What we have is the classic image of the humourless Commissar vs the reality on the ground. Even Commissar Hark does this, and he's considered a lot tougher than Gaunt is. Same with that idiot one with those Tallarns in the Ciaphas Cain novel (the name escapes me ATM).

Well the image comes from somewhere and If a "named" commissar
spares you but the 90% of the rest don't I'd say the general outlook is pretty bleak. No example of generosity removes the fact that commissars have the power of life and death over their men.

Since I'm not relying on the primer a whole lot I think above is previously covered.

Yeah, you're going off the Primer & the Taros campaign. Connor's going off how many books again ?

I'm relying on the Taros campaign book for the sole reason it depicts an IoM army in action in detail. I hardly see what's wrong with that.
And how many books Connor is or isn't going by you should leave to him.

-Gunhead

[andrewgpaul]

STC designs are considered to somewhat inviolate.

Hardly. There's enough evidence of them being changed. Witness the Predator Annihilator, the Land Raider Helios & Crusader, etc etc etc. Granted, the AdMech is very conservative when it comes to adapting designs, but given thousands of years of lasgun use across the entire Galaxy, well I imagine you'd get plenty of different designs and variations.

That's why I said somewhat. Lasgun has been the weapon of the guard
for a long fucking time, and I have no doubt that there are ungodly amount of variants floating about. I'm merely intrested if there is a version that could be considered the most widespread and is it common enough to be regarded as a standard. Or at least if the most common types are even roughly similar. A bit like the AK47 and weapons that are based on it.
-Gunhead

All of Teleros' examples come from the Marines, who are less likely to be concerned with the Mechanicus' insistence on 'the will of the machine god'. Another example is the Vindicator; invented by the Ultramarines during the Heresy, IIRC.

One example of STC 'fiddling' I can think of is the Hellhound. Apparently, the STC plan is for the Immolator Rhino variant, for which the Adepta Sororitas have exclusive rights. The Hellhound is a knock-off by the AdMech, in violation of the agreement.

[Black Admiral]

Well the image comes from somewhere and If a "named" commissar spares you but the 90% of the rest don't I'd say the general outlook is pretty bleak. No example of generosity removes the fact that commissars have the power of life and death over their men.

However, as Cain regularly points out, most commissars tend towards the benign neglect school of doing things, not least because doing the whole "avenging angel of death" thing may look good on paper, but if you find yourself on a battlefield (with all the confusion and disorder that implies) with the people whose mates you've shot, and they all have guns and an easy way to disguise whatever they do to you, your life expectancy just hit negative figures.

[Teleros]

Heavy weapons should always have infantry screening them.
This is true in real life and it should be true in 40K. I for one can see no reason why the above wouldn't be true.

It does however allow for a squad to be fairly good at a variety of tasks, and is hardly compulsory either. But in an urban setting for example you definitely want anti-tank weapons up front.

If I wasn't clear previously I'll try to be this time. When I say smallest tactical unit is the platoon I don't mean individual squads aren't used.
It means the total commitment of troops to any combat task should be at least a platoon. Individual squads should be used when the task requires it, but most commonly these tasks are best left to specialist units.

The problem is that the Guard frequently doesn't have the unlimited manpower (on hand) that these tactics would require. Also, it depends on what you mean by combat task: I can see clearing a street of two-storey houses as platoon-level work, but not just one of them - it'd be ridiculous levels of overkill unless you add in some other factor (like facing Chaos Marines or something).

I'm relying on the Taros campaign book for the sole reason it depicts an IoM army in action in detail. I hardly see what's wrong with that.
And how many books Connor is or isn't going by you should leave to him.

Nothing wrong with it, but remember the many Gaunt's Ghosts books also show an Imperial army in action in detail .

[Gunhead]

Well the image comes from somewhere and If a "named" commissar spares you but the 90% of the rest don't I'd say the general outlook is pretty bleak. No example of generosity removes the fact that commissars have the power of life and death over their men.

However, as Cain regularly points out, most commissars tend towards the benign neglect school of doing things, not least because doing the whole "avenging angel of death" thing may look good on paper, but if you find yourself on a battlefield (with all the confusion and disorder that implies) with the people whose mates you've shot, and they all have guns and an easy way to disguise whatever they do to you, your life expectancy just hit negative figures.

I was just thinking. Maybe the biggest difference is the commissars rank.
Don't commissars have an internal rank system? By which I mean an average rank and file commissar that hangs around a platoon HQ has no business of telling a brigade commander what he was or should be doing.
It's a lot simpler to be a "by the book" man when your station is 100km (or more ) from the front lines. Well this would quite neatly explain why commissars who are in the thick of things are more lenient, since they do have to live with the men, and people closer to the top are more easily a lot harsher.
Btw. if there is an established rank system for the commissars, it would be nice to see it.

-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

I see your point Teleros and just like to point out that I'm talking about basic textbook tactics here. Maybe I've should have put the words "in theory"
before previous posts, but I guess this shows I usually go over these things with people who a) speak my native language b) Are familiar with the terms I use c) all of the above.
Now manpower and other limitations of course apply to what a commander can do in the field.
What is or isn't the smallest tactical unit an army utilizes is for the most part a theoretical issue since a real tactical situation is far too complex to narrowed down to a simple representation. I don't think I can put more simply than that.

-Gunhead

[andrewgpaul]

The only other source I could go by is inference. As noted in other threads I have done, given the probable number of Hive Worlds in the Imperium, you can expect a disproportionate number of troops to come from those places. A fair bit of which will probably be Hive Gangers. If you've ever bothered to read a Necromunda novel or had a look at the Necromunda rules, you'd note the following:

- few Necromundan gangs have more than 20 members and most have fewer than a dozen (so for the most part, they qualify as a squad.)

- Each gang will typically have at least one or two heavies - big, burly strong folk (kinda like Bragg or others like him) who are designed to carry and employ those heavy weapons, sometimes alone and sometimes (IIRC) with assistance. This can include heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, autocannon, lascannon, and missile launchers. Some gangs like the Goliath make use of "heavy" weapons like stubbers and autocannons as regular weapons, because they're freakishly strong.)

Given that disposition, its probable that "hive gang" regiments would have quite a few heavy weapons available at squad level (if for no other reason than they startted out with that before being conscripted.) I won't even bother commenting on "Goliath" regiments....

That's about the only other way I can possibly see establishing any sorrt of comparative baseline, and its still somewhat conjectural even then. But its no worse than what you appear to "assume" as true.

The assumption that recruited hiveworld gangs will keep their equipment after conscription is likely unwarranted. Granted, I have little to base this on, but consider; to end up in the Guard, a ganger has to be conscripted twice. Those represented in the Necromunda setting are highly unlikely to ever be recruited into even the PDF, since they've descended into the underhive, away from the control of even the Major Houses of the hive. Regular members of House Goliath are probably too busy manufacturing whatever it is House Goliath manufactures to spend all their time in gangs.

Moreover, Imperial Guard equipment is intentionally restricted, to make resupply easier (almost all patterns of lasgun use the same powerpack, everyone uses the Leman Russ tank, for example). There was a reference back in 2nd ed somewhere mentioning this; some PDF units use autoguns or stubguns instead of lasguns, some make great use of hover vehicles, or whatever. So, gang members and the like are likely to have been re-equipped in a more uniform fashion before they ever make it into the PDF, let alone Guard. The very fact that underhive gangs can end up with lasguns, plasma grenades and anti-grav harnesses, presumably as 'shrinkage' from munitions factories, does suggest that Necroimunda's PDF would be very well equipped, however.

Those weapons used by Necromunda gangs look weedier than the Imperial Guard versions, too; autocannon and stubbers are smaller calibre (and the Van Saar stubber is clip-fed), lascannon are much smaller.

As to Commissar ranks, the only ones I've ever seen in 40K is Commissar-General (command staff) and cadet-Commissar, other than simply Commissar. I don't think Commissar-General is a rank, so much as a position (most likely one that takes part in operational concerns, such as Commissar-General van Horcic, during the Taros campaign. Even that's not always the case; Yarrick was an ordinary Commissar before the 2nd Armageddon War (in the PDF, at that), and remained so, despite becoming supreme commander of Imperial ground forces during the Third War.