40K fleet numbers analysis thread

[Connor MacLeod]

"First" Line and "Second" Line designations probably mean the difference between new Imperial designs and ships reactivated from Reserve Fleet depots. The Eye of Terror Campaign, and the Bastion Fleet List from BFG make many references to these ships/fleets. An event like the 13th Black Crusade would be grounds for mobilizing them.

I planned to mention and cover the reserve fleets briefly later on, but that could be. Although I think they were going for duplicating WW1/2 class designations for cruisers that way (though IIRC they didn't use them well.)

Your essay is a very thorough appreciation of the IoM's active strength, however there is a very strong implication that substantial numbers of effective vessels are sitting in mothballs. This is primarily due to changes in doctrine, although some are rated as obsolescent/obsolete due to design features, like the Vengeance Class of Grand Cruisers.

Yes, I gathered this as well, again I'll probably go ove rthis later on in a "misc" section when I cover the Inquisition, Sororitas, Arbites, etc.

[Connor MacLeod]

Space Marine fleets.

Space marines maintain sizeable fleets, collectively, although they are still vastly outnumbered by the Navy proper. Most sources generally indicate there are at least 1000 chapters or so, although matters may dictate that this probably isn't an absolute Collectively their fleets probably represent a goodly number of heavy and medium vessels in the Imperium's forces, particularily given their greater mobility. It also serves as a lower limit on Naval ships (since, logically, the Navy is going to be MUCH larger - probably by at least a factor of several times.)

A general overview:

Battle Barges: The space marine lists and Battle Barge entry in BFG mentions that most Space marine chapters have at least two or three Barges. Some chapters, such as the Ultramarines, have a large number of battle barges (five). In general, we can safely infer that the Chapters number around 2000-5000 battle barges, with the actual number probably skewing towards the lower number (unless they have significantly more than 1000 chapters. Even then, the number isn't likely to be off by more than a factor of two.)

Strike cruisers: More common than battle barges, but less so than rapid strike vessels. The fleet lists mention up to 10 Strike cruisers per chapter, and a number of fleets. The Ultramarines have a full complement of ten strike cruisers, whereas the Space Wolves might have a few more than that. So, at least 10,000 cruisers, possibly several times this number.

Rapid Srike vessels: Rapid strike vessles are the most numerous class of ships in the Space Marine fleets, and the ones most like Naval warships. No "definite" upper limit is stated for them, and they do not seem to carry "Space Marine" officers proper. In addition as escorts for the battle barges and strike cruisers, tehy are used to sometimes ferry small groups of Space Marine sin emergencies as well as to patrol Space Marine holdings and territories. There are probably tens of thousands of RSV's in the combined Space Marine fleets (thousands of squadrons.)

As an aside: There is some confusion as to whether space marines consistenyl crew their escorts. According to some sourcecs they do, but the novel "Angels of Darkness" implies otherwise (at least with the Dark Angels - whose rapid strike vessel was crewed and captained by the serfs - the Marines were largely passengers.)

At an absolute minimum, a Master of the fleet typically needs eighty to a hundred Marines to properly crew the fleet, its Thunderhawks, and its landing craft, and most chapters have measures in place to ensure that a standing force of this size is permanantly available to the Master of the Fleet, be it his own company in its entirety, or squads from across the Chapter left permanantly at his disposal.

This indicates the number of Space Marines (minimally) devoted to a Chapter's naval elements. In the simplest terms, we can assume 1 marine per ship, and that each Chapter could possess 80-100 ships. As an order of magnitude estimate, it works - while the quote indicates that the figure COULD be higher, it obviously cannot be much larger than the Chapter's own size (and to my memory, ,the "larger than 1000-men" chapters like the Black Templars aren't common. In reality its unlikely that most chapters woudl bother with more than 1/3 or 1/4th their Chapter being devoted ot the fleet.

On the other side of the coin (as the following quotes will indicate) you can usually expect a handful of space marines aboard the major ships (battle barges and strike cruisers) and probably at least one or two aboard some/most escorts (Tech marines), so that can cut the numbers in half (or more), but again probably less than an order of magnitude.

In general, this could be used to indicate that Chapters total "scores" of vessels easily, possibly up to a few hundred ships in some cases (particularily large, wealthy, or powerful chapters like the Ultramarines or Black Templars. In the case of groups like the Ultramarines, who hold entire systems/sectors and are expected to provide its defense, you can expect them to be comparable to Battlefleets. The Soul Drinkers too might be an exceptional example, though no definite numbers on their fleet size are given.) One can probably safely assume that the "rule" is around 100 or so space marines - representative of a company-sized element.

Another possibility is that some fleets may make extensive use of "scouts" or other proto-marine types to fill out numbers (since its quite liklier that the Scout elements of a Chapter are more numerous than the Chapter proper.)

In any event, total fleet sizes probably are in the "tens of thousands" of ships, minimum.

A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveryor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties.

This indicates that Space Marines serve as officers and engineers (for the Techmarines) aboard their vessels. This also means that at least several marines per ship is common (with the possible exception of escorts.)

Usually, one of the Chapter's Captains will be appointed Master of the Fleet with overall responsibility for the Chapter's entire fleet. This will place at his disposal all the pilots, gunnery officers, command crews and navigators in the Chapter.

These additional crewmen will not join the Master of the Fleet's own company, for they themselves are not Space Marines, but serfs indoctrinated only into the lower orders of the Chapter, particularily those cults associated with the fleet itself.

A large part of a Chapter's naval crews will not be Space Marines, as noted again, but will be chapter "serfs" - though at least one officer (probably two, at least for bigger ships) and a couple Techmarines can be expected.

Also note that again the size of the "naval Spacee Marine" detachment is around company sized, here.

Whilst these serfs make up the vast bulk of crews aboard Space Marine vessels, the Master of the Fleet also has anumber of Space Marines under his command, who act as high-ranking officers aboard the fleet's vessels, providing captains for individual vessels, leading specialized boarding parties, or otherwise overseeing the dedicated Serfs who provide the bulk of a vessel's manpower.

This seems to imply 2-3 "officers" per ship (at least for Strike cruisers and battle barges), plus whatever Techmarines are assigned.

The exact organisation of those Space Marines tasked with crewing the fleet varies from Chapter to Chapter. In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, ,squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in the same way as a Space Marine battleforce my be made up of squads drawn up from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated force commander.

A further elaboration of the "Fleet Company" organization, again implying around 100 or so Marines per ship. It also indicates that around 10 or so marines crew each ship, which implies at least 10 ships per Chapter. However, this almost certainly means it excludes escorts. It also implies that a minium of 10,000 strike cruisers and battle barges (2000-3000 Battle Barges, and 7000-8000 strike cruisers minimum.)

BFG magazine 2 (page 17)

Rapid Strike Vessels are crewed by the Chapter's serfs, overseen by a cadre of Techmarines and other specialists

At least 2 tech marines per Rapid Strike vessel (although "cadre" implies more.). Strike cruisers and battle barges probably have more. However, this creates a problem, given that Spacee Marines obviously exist in limited numbers. (Consider the Ultramarines, who have 10 Strike cruisers and 5 battle barges known - thats at least 30-50 Techmarines per ship alone.. or over HALF the "comapny" formation, nevermind the escorts!)

We also know of at least one escort (The Blade of Caliban from Angels of Darkness did not have techmarines on board normally, except when ferrying around the Marines from the recruiting outpost.) We could instead interpret the statement above to mean that the "crews" of the escorts are trained and monitored periodically by Tech Marines (perhaps assigned to a particular squadron or the command craft.)

PAge 19

Unlike the vessels of the Imperial Navy, a Space Marine ship has a relatively small crew. A Space Marine is too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties.

The "officers" aboard a space marine vessel, and a "few" Techmarines, implying 2-3. Its unknown whether the Techmarines are considered part of the "squad" assigned to a ship.

BFG magazine 15, page 22

Battle barges can deploy three companies of marines with support weapons and vehicles in a single drop. They also have massed lateral weapons batteries to deal with orbital defenses. Normally, chapters would only possess two or three of these crushing vessels but UItramarines can field five as Ultramar traditionally depended on them for sector naval protection.

Again we see the reference to "two or three" battlebarges per chapter, although here this implies its more of a standard to all Chapters rather than only "most". It also indicates that SOME Chapters (like the Ultramarines, possibly the other "first/second" founding Chapters like the Dark Angels) have more than a couple battlebarges. It would be a safe bet that Chapters like the Black Templars do as well. It also sets an upper limit of 5000 battle barges total, although the more realistic upper limit is between 3000-4000.

The Ultramarines maintain a permanant fleet of ten strike cruisers, though this number has been known to increase as demand requires.

The Ultramarines have at least ten strike cruisers, but have known to posesss more. Its safe to assume that each Chapter has close to that number if not more.

BFG mag 16, page 10

If the mission is especially crucial, the Inquisitor may well station Grey Knight Boarding Parties on other vessels in the fleet, or even go so far as to call in the support of a Grey Knights strike cruiser or Battlebarge.

This simply indicates that the Grey Knights have Battlebarges and Strike cruisers like any other chapter, although for my purposes I would classify them under "Inquisitional' forces rather than Space Marine.

14 Space Marine battle barges

103 Space Marine Strike cruisers

Given above there are roughly 7 Strike cruisers per Battle Barge. Given the 2 to 3 thousand figure above, this implies ~14,000-21,000 strike cruisers.

Supposedly around "twenty" Chapters participated in the war, (the Codex lists 24 or so) but obviously they weren't deploying their full naval strength.

21+ space marine battle barges

150+ space marine strike cruisers

200+ Space marine escort squadrons. [400-1200 escorts]

For every battlebarge there are ~7 strike cruisers and between ~19 and 57 escorts.

For every Strike cruiser there are 3 to 8 escorts.

Assuming 2000-3000 battle barges, this makes out 14 to 21 thousand strike cruisers and ~20,000 to 171,000 escorts.

Assuing ~10,000 Strike cruisers, there are 30,000-80,000 escorts.

According to the Codex there were ~23 "known" Chapters participating in varying strengths, although many contributed almost their entire numbers, though its obvious that this won't neccesarily represent "total" Chapter strengths deployed (they're all minimums in any case.) Still the approximations as order of magnitude estimates are reasonably valid.

I would estimate that there are approximately one hundred craft of this class [strike cruisers and/or escorts?) operating in the segmentum as a whole, of which twenty ot thirty appear in the Gothic on a regular basis.

Its unclear whether the reference referred to *just* Strike cruisers or whether it included Rapid Strike vessels (the refrence to the "strike craft" being slightly less massive than a Dauntless-class light cruiser seems to imply the former, although large numbers of frigates could be comparable in size also, and the essay admitted ignorance to Marine assets.) If we took the gothic sector to be average (whcih is implied in the BFG rule book) we could infer dozens of "Strike craft" per sector - about 100,000-150,000 vessels total assuming 5,000 sectors. If this applies to strike cruisers and rapid strke vessels collectively this number might make sense, although its probably grossly over-generous if referring to striek cruisers alone. However, if 20-30 strike cruisers per sector only applied to 500 sectors (10% of my estimate) it would mean 10 or 15 thousand strike cruisers as a minimum, which fits with other established estimates, and escorts should number several times the strike cruisers easily.

It is also worth noting that Armada indicates that aruond 5 battle barges operated in the Gothic sector, this would average about 4-6 strike cruisers per battle barge (8-18 thousand strike cruisers in the Imperium.)

In general, one can safely conclude:

Two and four thousand battle barges

ten and thirty thousand strike cruisers

escorts numbering at least many tens of thousands, possibly a few hundred thousand.

Total fleet assets would range between 50 and 200 thousand ships, approximately.

[Connor MacLeod]

Other fleets

Unfortunatley, that seems to be (currently) all I have for Imperial fleets in terms of hard facts (such as they are). At this point things become much more conjectural., but not totally speculative. The "other fleets" category includes the following: "Planetary defence force" navies (which I already covered in some detail, but I'll reiterate here), the Arbites, the ministorum/ecclesiarchy (Sororitas and Frateris mainly.), the Guard, the Rogue Traders, the Adeptus Mechanicus, and of course the Inquisition. Not neccesarily in that order.

Planetary Defense Fleets

As already mentioned, PDF fleets probably represent the "largest" accumulation of ships, although their limited/nonexistent warp-capable nature and diversity make them virtually impossible to unify or coordinate. Numbers are almost certainly in the "millions" - most if not nearly all planets in the Imperium are bound to have SOME form of system defense, and logically to include defense ships.

As per Battlefleet Gothic, Port Maw had "hundreds" of system defense ships, which probably represents an extraordinary concentration (given Porrt Maw was a sector/segmentum naval base.)

The planet Ultramar from "Warriors of Ultramar" had dozens (as did MacCragge) and could be considered representative of a "major" world (say a Hive world or Forge world) It could be safe to say therefore that the PDF fleets probably comprise a dozen or two mobile "system ships" (monitors and patrol ships both) on average, plus whatever fixed defenses are established.

As an order of magntiude estimate (assuming one million planets, possibly as many as "ten million" if you take millions literally), this would mean the PDF fleets total tens of millions of ships, ,possibly hundreds of millions.

But no more than a few billion (!) barring extreme upper limit calcs.


Guard units

A few sources (Inquisition War, Soul Drinkers) make indirect hints that the Imperial Guard may have some ships under their command. Presumably they are not directly "owned" by the Guard (few truly "own" a ship of their own in the imperium) but ships (probably transports, but possibly some escorts.) on loan to the Guard. A good (possible) example of this would be in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, where Gaunt has a frigate assigned to him for his use (First nad only describes it as "his" Flagship.) There's also the Phantine, ,who are known to use fighters (normally a "Navy" role/privelege.)

While technically this can be (correctly) seen as a violation of the separation between Army and Navy that is meant to prevent another Horus Heresy, it does not represent as great a danger as one might think. For one thing, the "ships" known or probably assigned ot the Guard are not going to be the biggest or most powerful (smaller than a cruiser or battleship, and probably even some escorts) and therefore something the Navy (or other forces if need be) could easily deal with. Moreover, any "warship" could not carry more than a regiment (at best, and probably a small one at that) at best, so their ability to attack or conquer a planet (or defeat a planet's defenses) are clearly limited as well. A troop transport COULD carry more troops, arguably, but its defenses would be weaker (and it would be easier to destroy by the Navy, Space Marines, etc.)

What "Guard ships" probably represent are what amounts to specialized "rapid reaction" forces in a similar vein as to what the Space Marines and Arbites have - a limited number of small ships designed to fufill a specific and limited role. While a minor threat, its not one that would represent a scale of danger as seen in the Heresy. The vast majority of regiments probably still require separate transportation to be provided by the Navy, or are attached to other groups (the Inquisition, Space Marines, Rogue Traders, etc.) or serving as Garrison troops.

Adeptus Arbites

"Space Fleet" and the "Codex Imperialis" both mention (but do not clarify) that the Arbites have their own fleets. Understandable, given their role as a "galactic police force". The vessels are only ever outlined once to my knowledge, in Execution hour, where they use a Punisher-class Strike cruiser. If they have strike cruisers, its also reasonable that they probably have escort-class vessels as well, and probably transports of their own (implied by Codex Imperialis.) These ships are used to supplement planetary assault, hunting pirates, rebels and criminals, and to police/protect systems or territories.

It is never known if they have battleships, but Codex Imperialis implies they are capable of chasing down "Admirals of the fleet", which would imply they have some sort of heavier warship than a cruiser. In any case, they (like the Inquisition) are able to requisition forces of both the Guard AND Navy to augment their own, so they can increase their own figures by these means (And it happens in Execution Hour.)

Numbers aren't known, but its not unreasonable to expect them to have similar numbers as the Astartes. Given their presence throughout the Imperium, they probably have at least a handful of cruisers and escorts per sector - tens of thousands of ships minimum is quite likely, but probably more, given the "system security" needs and the implied "local" ranges. Of course, they are bound to have far fewer ships then the navy (10% or less of the Navy's warp-capable numbers again, "tens of thousands" of ships easily.)

Inquisition

The Inquisition, having a little bit of everything in the Imperium (ground troops, space marines, etc.) also have their own fleets. Each inquisitor is known to generally have his own conveyance (more influential ones can have more than one, in fact. Especially Lord Inquisitors) much in the same way they can assemble virtual armies of their own. But in addition to "personal" assets, the Inquistion has its own warships (like they do the Chambers militant and the storm troopers) who are not part of any one Inquisitor's retinue. Colloquially dubbed "black ships" in BFG (a term which has admittedly been corrupted throughout time)

The "Black ships" as they are dubbed, serve mainly as transportation and support vessels for the Inquisitional forcees, much in the same way Battle barges and strike cruisers do. The BFG version is described as a strike cruiser on a battlecruiser hull - quite probably the largest known "official" ship owned by the Inquisition (IE not "loaned" to them) outside of the Chambers militant battle barges. Whether they have battleships of their own (not borrowed) is unknown (and probably irrelevant.) but if they do, they're probably one of the most powerful ships around (aside from anything the AM might be hiding away.) The Eisenhorn novels imply the Inquisition DOES keep "Black ships" of cruiser class around as well. And its likely they have their own escort squadrons (who doesn't?)

"Black ships" have also, of course, meant those vessels designed to collect and ferry psykers to Earth for training and/or consumption by the GeOM.
In addition to that, the Space Marine chapters of the various Ordos (such as the Malleus' Grey Knights) seem to have their own battle barges, strike cruisers, and escrots, which also can be included in the Inquisition's numbers.

And, of course, the Inquisition can requisition ships from the Navy if they choose to, up to and including battleships. (As I recall, they have battleships from other battle fleets on permanant loan - painted black.) Which would not be "officially" counted here.

Numerically, the "personal" vessels of the Inquisition can probably number tens or hundreds of thousand or even millions, depending on how many Inquisitors one believes there are (I tend to believe the higher end ot fhe scale.) Not all of these are going to be "Warships" of any kind, but many are probably large enough to be warp-capable.

The Chambers militant can probably add at least six to ten battle barges, several dozen strike cruisers, and scores of escorts to that roster.
The "Black ship" fleet is unknown, but probably matches or exceeds the numbers of other factions (tens to hundreds of thousands.) It may even potentially match the Navy, though this is debatable.

Adeptus Mechanicus

Of all the factions in the Imperium, only the Adeptus Mechanicus and the astartes have ships that match or exceed Imperial Navy vessels, and of the two the Mechanicus ones are probably much more massive in terms of sheer volume (IE the 16 km conveyor from First and Only.) The Mechanicus has many sorts of vessels - from conveyors and transports dedicated to transferring their military forces (TechGuard and skitarii as well as Titan Legions) and other resources as well as research ships and the Explorator vessels. Not only are they some of the largest, but they are bound to be some of the most technologically sophisticated (moreso than the Navy, at least.) Some vessels can actually move prefab factories facilities (such as in Execution hour)

As a rule, their vessels seem to be multi-role in nature, and they do not seem to possess dedicated warships. However, given the sheer size of some (many) of the vessels, they probably CAN carry considerable firepower despite being designed for other purposes (transportation). It is also not unreasonable, if not likely, that the Adeptus Mechanicus keeps secret the true extent of the capabilities of their ships secret, the same way they do with others, and thus their ships could be more than a match for the Navy (if it came to that.) In any even,t since they control all the forge worlds, they doubtless can build warships if they chose to, in any event (they're already building for everyone else, as it is.)

This also means numbers are hard to come by but probably irrelevant.

Tens of thousands is a safe minimum, but they could easily come close to or match the Navy (merchan and warships) in size.

Sororitas and Frateris vessels

Only mentioned in Iron Hands (sororitas) and the Eisenhorn books (Frateris), though Codex Imperialis does describe the Sororitas having their own fleets also, and the "Space Fleet" essay mentions that the Priesthood maintains a small number of ships for personal use (presumably including warships.) Numerically, there is very little to go on.

According to "sisters of Battle" codex, the Sisterhood's orders only number in the thousands (with six Orders), and generally do not exceed 10,000 (although they admit the numbers can vary dramatically.) This would imply very small fleets (assuming they transportt a company or its equivalent apiece) would suggest hundreds or thousands of ships at best. It's also possible the Sororitas numbers were changed (upwards, I imagine. Tens of thousands seems too few for its roles, much the same way the Space marine fleets are somewhat small for theirs.)

The Frateris presumably do not "own" any ships directly, as they are not officially part of the Ecclesiarchy, but presumably are under the control of the Priesthood and "coincidentally" are crewed by volunteers. No idea on their numbers, but they may potentially match the other factions (arbites and astartes, that is.)

Rogue Traders

Rogue Traders, of course, have vessels of their own. Few if any actually "own" these ships, but they come as part of their charter or may be "loaned" to the Traders from other sources (mainly the merchant and naval side of things, especially the navy or naval reserves.) Most Rogue Traders command small ships (cruisers and escorts or their equivalent, armed merchant ships, freighters and transprots, and the like.) Almost all are well armed (Although not "true" military vessels save those they borrow/acquire from the Navy, that is.) and some may be unconventionally outfitted (especially if operating under Inquisitorial fiat - eg Ravenor.)

In terms of numbers, the Rogue Traders are never formally outlined excecpt in Space Fleet mentioning "hundreds", but this is probably unlikely in "recent" editions (again, the numbers in "Space fleet" were drastically underestimated.) Thousands seems likely, with a rogue Trader on average probably owning a few vessels (such as in Rogue Star), but in some cases a Rogue Trader may run dozens or hundreds of ships - including ships as large as a battleship (although this is probably rare and requires real cooperation between the RT and the navy)

Numbers, while hard to come by, probably are not drastically important in this case, as the Rogue Traders are the most likely of any other faction to have their vessels loaned to them from the other fleets of the Imperium, so they probably have few "personal" vessels.

Officio Assasinorum

They have ships, according to "Space Fleet", but numbers and type and capability are unknown. Probably quite small, though.

Navigators

To my knowledge never directly described except for a brief mention in "space fleet" (as Privately owned ships), although since every other major faction in the Imperium has at least SOME ships, I expect the Navigators do (some warp capable, probably not warships, but also probably system defense vessels for their own territories.)

Privately-owned ships

Space fleet mentions "several thousand" privately owned ships registered to families, individuals, or trading cartels. It should be noted, however, that given how they under-estimate fleet and merchant numbers in Space fleet, these figures could be at least an order of magntidue higher (tens of thousands of ships.) They are unliekly to be warships, but probably more armed merchant cruisers.

Fighters and attack craft "ordnance"

Fighters (which are substantially larger than their Imperial counterparts) can be quite large (close to or over 100+ meters, as per First and Only) often representing small "capital ships" of their own. Earlier novels (Inquisition War and Eye of Terror) also featured "Cobra class" attack ships (pre BFG cobra destroyers, really) that were sublight "parasite" vessels.

Other novels such as "dark angels" and Caves of Ice feature drop ships and shuttles and transports that are hundreds of meters long (and shuttles/transports are part of attack craft, remember.) As such, like the "PDF fleets" and "patrol ships" (see below), these are not counted but probably represent massive numbers (tens or hundreds of millions.

Probably more, given their definitively smaller size.)
These assets also probably qualify as part of "PDF" fleets too (which will further augment their numbers.)

Non-Battlegroup Naval forces

As noted in the BFG core book, there are numerous (smaller) vessels not
included in a battlefleets numbers, including patrol ships. They are also mentioned here

Terrifying monuments and uninhabited, abandoned cities across worlds once ravaged by war stand as totems to what has passed there, while the sight of ever-ready patrol groups, battlefleets and infantry regiments prowling the stars serve as a constant reminder that wars which may have raged and burned out centuries before still flicker brightly enough to return and engulf Mankind at any moment.

The Soul drinkers novels, IIRC, also mention patrol ships, as does Eisenhorn, but not in any great detail.

These forces are not "officially" apartt of the batlte-fleet. They are presumably warp capable to some degree (albeit short ranged/local in all probability) and mostly designed for scouting/recon and dealing with small forces (pirates and smugglers) much like the arbites fleet. They are also thus probably smaller and less powerful (more like a system defense/patrol ships if anything.) But they are also probably present in greater numbers as well (millions if not tens of millions.) These may also represent hte "short ranged warp capable" vessels apartt of a PDF I speculated on earlier.


Reserve fleets

Falkenhayn mentioned these, but I figured its worth covering them here:

As with all highly militarised zones, it is important for the Imperial Navy to maintain substantial reserves of vessels around the eye of Terror, ,ready to deploy as reinforcecments should the need arise. Whilst it is possible to keep the vessels themselves ready in this manner, Battlefleet Obscura simply does not possess the manpower to keep reserve crews stationed aboard these vessels as well. Instead, whole shipyards are filled with rows of silent, inactive vessels, often representing classes of ship now outdated or scarce. In times of great need these ships will then be grought into serveice and crewed with sialors from destroyed or crippled vessels or even with hastily mustered new recruits.

This tells us that the Imperium's "active" fleet does not represent its WHOLE ship strength (aside from repairs or rebuilds and new construction) - they evidently have large numbers of ships in mothballs for emergencies.

As Falkenhayn noted, this probably means the numbers I outlined above can be doubled, trpled, or more (hundreds of thousands or millions more ships.)

It is worth noting, of course, ,that while these ships are there, they probably represent a lower quality in terms of design/capability and crews in many cases, for the reasons outlined in the quote. Nonetheless, in emergencies it indicates the Imperium can put forth substantially more warships should they need to. The trade off in doing so, however, is probably not just in quality, but in logistics (There's no guarantee their infrastructure or transporrt capability could neccesarily accomodate THAT many ships, for example..)


Conclusion

PDF, parasite and "patrol/recon" vessels aside, the ships of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus ARbites, the Adeptus Astartes and the Inquisition collectively form a not-insignificant addition of vessels to the Imperium's overall (active) military strength, particularily since many of these groups tend to be better armed/equipped than the Navy is (Inquisition, AA, and AM in particular.) The Sorotias/Frateris May contribute significantly, but that is unknown, as is how (if in any way) the Guard or Rogue Traders may contribute. Other than that, the rest are largely irrelevant.

PDF navies, parasite/ordnance craft and the "patrol" ships all probably represent less firepower "per ship" than any navy vessel, but their greater numbers doubtless make up for this, and in a war those forceces provide a valuable defensive edge. The Arbites serve a useful defensive role, while the Astartes can do both offense AND defense (its access to specialized Exterminatus ordnance can make them very good offensively.) The Inquisition can likewise serve both ends as needed, giving the Imperium and its Navy added flexibility. Reserve fleets, lastly, help offset the relatively slow construction rates by giving the Imperium a substantial "buffer" of usable warships.

[Connor MacLeod]

Scope of the Imperium of Man

While there are many references to a "million" worlds, or a "million plus" worlds or "more than a million", there are also a number of references to "millions" of worlds in the Imperium (Fabrick of the Imperium, the Inquisitor's Sketchbook, The Space Wolf Omnibus, BFG Magazine,and the old "Space Hulk" site. In general, the idea that there are "millions" of worlds in the Imperium is not unusual - the Imperium is stated in different sourecs as to be constantly rediscovering or conquering/colonizing new planets. Even allowing for losses on "thousands" of battlefronts, natural disasters, and warp storms across the Galaxy, they are bound to (over time) gain more planets than they lose, barring some major catastrophe.

It may be, however, that the fluctuation and attrition do mean that over the millenium, they have only gained into the "low" millions at best - certainly there is no evidence I can recall suggesting they are vastly larger than that (IE hundreds of millions).

What follows is a breakdown of the specific worlds in the Imperium. Generally spaeking, this is meant to convey an "order of magnitude" estimate only for: Hive and Forge worlds, civilized, mining, and industrial worlds, agri-worlds, etc. Note that it does include penal and uninhnabiteld worlds, but does not factor in Feudal, Feral, Death, or Research worlds. It probably also excludes newly colonized worlds (an Agri world or Civilized world would have a fairly well established tech/industrial/agricultural base, much less a Hive/Forge world.) Such "extra" worlds probably comprise the additional "millions".

The importance of these calcs are several-fold. One, certain worlds like Hive Worlds represent substantial contributions to the Imperial war effort (Guard raisings, mainly) as well as major industrial Worlds. Along with civilized and Forge worlds, this tells us just how extensive and distributed the military/industrial infrastructure of the Imperium is, and how much damage it can sustain before becoming unsupporttable.

In addition, it also gives us an indication of just how many worlds can (probably) build warships, as well as what kinds and where. Forge worlds (and possibly some of the older/bigger Hive Worlds) for example almost certainly aare the only planets capable of building battleships or battlecruisers as well as lesser vessels. Most Hive worlds and civilized worlds can probably build any sort of cruiser and possibly battlecruiser, as well as escort, definitely. Any world, in theory, could build at least light cruisers as well as frigates or destroyers (the "Lunar class cruiser built on a feral world" example as outlined in BFG will be discussed later.) In extraordinary circumstances, of course, it is theoretically possible for ANY world in the Imperium to build at least a Lunar-class vessel, although construction rates probably vary immensely depending on the world (Construction rates, of course, will be described later.)

How this will be handled will be alot simpler In quotes I will outline a number of Sectors, Sub-sectors, and the like from various BFG resources (mainly the magazine and BFG itself). I will give total numbers of worlds after the breakdown. Aside from some notes, analysis of the totals will follow ONLY at the end.

<<<<>>>>

Corriba sector (planet killer, BFG mag 1)

6 hive worlds

3 Forge worlds

11 civilised

9 mining worlds

16 Agri-world

5 uninhatibted

[50 worlds total]

Elasyion Sector (BFG magazine, 08

Hive world 16

Forge world 8

Civilised world 11

Uninhabited world 4

Mining world 16

Agri world 16

Penal world 2

[73 worlds total]

Note: This one was harder to work out from what I had (A copy) , but its probably approximate to within twice the value (or less)

Gothic Sector: BFG page 159

Hive world 9

Forge world: 3

Civilised world: 13

Agri world 20

Mining world: 25

Uninhabitable world 8

Penal world 3

[~80 worlds total]

Note: As noted before, BFG states that the "Gothic Sector" comprises some 200 inhabitable worlds. If we take this as referring to worlds in the Imperium, and given the above, this means that the other ~120 or so worlds in the Gothic Sector comprise the "other" category - Research stations, feral and feudal worlds, etc. This would infer between 1.5 and 2 million additional worlds in the Imperium, fitting with the "millions" mentioned above - at least at the time fo the Gothic War.)

Armageddon sector - BFG magazine page 14

Forge worlds 2

Hive worlds 5

Civilised worlds 12

Agri worlds 12

Mining worlds 9

Uninhabited 7

Penal 2

"Ork infested": 5

[54 worlds total]

Note: "Ork infested" regions are of unknown type prior to their infestation/occupation by the Orks (they are now "uninhabitable' to anyone other than orks) The only idincation is that those worlds once covered some of the most "important systems" in the Sector, which may indicate they were Forge or Hive Worlds (or even civilised.)

<<<<>>>>

The following are mrely sub-sectors rather than full Sectors, but they ought to represent the numbers to within an order of magnitude (most Sectors seem to consist of roughly 6-7 sub-sectors with roughly an equal number of planets.) Also note that these "sub sector" numbers tend to be larger than what is implied in BFG - we may infer these are extraordinary examples.)

Cyclops cluster sub-sector: (BFG magazine 12)

Hive world 1

Forge World 1

Mining World 4

Uninhabitable World 2

Penal World 1

Agri-world 3

Civilised world 2

[14 worlds total]

Bakka sub-sector (BFG mag 2)

2 hive worlds

1 Forge world

2 mining worlds

1 Penal world

2 uninhatibed worlds

4 Agricultural worlds

1 civilised world.

[13 worlds total]

Elaysion sector, Prath Veil subsector:

Hive world 3

Forge world 1

Agri world 3

Mining world 2

Civilised world 2

Uninhabited world 0

Penal world 1

[12 worlds total]

<<<<>>>>

These following are taken from Armada. I consider these probably to be "Sub-Sectors" rather than full sectors, but ah well.

BFG armada: Scarus sector

Hive world 5

Forge world 2

Uninhabited world 2

Agri world 2

Civilised world 1

[12 worlds total]

BFG armada:

Agripinaa sector:

Forge world 1

Hive World 3

Civilised world 3

Penal world 1

Agri world 4

[12 worlds total]
[/quote]

Cadian Sector:

Forge world: 2

Hive world: 2

Civilised world: 1

Penal world: 1

Agri world 4

Mining world: 2

[12 worlds tota]

<<<<>>>>

Given the rough sampling of sectors above, we can determine certain (probable) conclusions:

The "likely" number of worlds per Sector is between 50-100 planets (confirming that the 200 per sector I used before was generous). This means that there are rpobably between 10 and 20 thousand sectors in the Imperium (also meaning my fleet calcs double or quadruple.)

We can also infer that each Sector has at least one or two Forge worlds in general. Given the 10-20K sector figure above, this means between 10,000-40,000 Forge worlds approximately. (This fits with the Soul Drinkers omnibus, which mentions "thousands" of Forge Worlds in the Imperiium)

We also determined that for every Forge world there is probably 2-3 hive worlds (so between 2 and 6 per Sector at least) - this also means there are between 20,000 and 120,000 Hive Worlds in the Imperium.

The breakdown of the REST of the worlds is probably much harder to figure out, given the less than consistent disparity. However, we can infer (very roughly) that approximately half the worlds in a given sector will fall into the "civilized" category (may vary as few as 1/3 to as much as 2/3, depending on Secotr.) This can mean around half a million worlds or so.

We can also infer (Safely) that between 1/4 and 1/3 of the planets in a Sector will be agri worlds. This can mean around 200-300 thousand or so such planets.

In terms of shipbuilding, this tells us the Imperium has thousands or tens of thousands of potential battleship-construction facitiiles, and many tens (or hundreds) of thousands for cruiser and escorts, meaning that on a wartime footing, and given enough time (which is actually the problem) the Imperium can replace a substantial percent of its losses with its shipbuilding capacity (or substnatially increase the size of its own fleet, if losses are minimal or they take the time and no other threats loom.)

One final update on the Imperium side of things to this essay will deal with "miscellaneous" calcs and such (construction rates, potential Guard recruitment numbers per sector, etc.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Dammit, I keep forgetting where I put these bloody additions. Anyhow, I forgot to add the construction rates. Misc calcs (mainly stuff for Guardsman and shit from other sources I've derived.) will come later.

"Fabricating the great battleships was the work of centruies

This indicates a construction timeframe of "centuries" for Imperial battleships, although this might also vary according to teh ship constructed, and where. For example, we know Bakka laid down keels for 15 Despoiler battleships consecutively and constructed them in far less than 250 years (mentioned below.)


BFG page 108

Imperial ships originate from four main sources: those salvaged from hulks drifting in space or (very occasionally) in the warp, those built by planetary overlords as part of their tithes to the Imperium, those built at the major fleet bases of the imperial Navy and those built at the forge worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

This clarifies where many ships in the Imperial navy come from. It indicates that potentially ANY planet can construct a warship, but only the major "fleet bases" and "forge worlds" seem to have dedicated shipyards (although it stands to reason some hive worlds do too, since many of them are major industrial worlds in their own right - ie Armageddon.)

Other ships are recovered and rebuilt from space hulks or discovered in the Warp. Presumably, this also includes other "hulks" salvaged from battles where the ship wasn't totally destroyed (rebuilt vessels.) Arguably such ships are much quicker to get into service.

BFG page 110

The Lunar class cruiser forms the mainstay of Battlefleet Obscuras with over six hundred ships serving throughout the Segmentum and more than twenty ships fighting in the Gothic war. The uncomplicated design of this class ensures its enduring utility, enablign vessels to be built at hive and industrial worlds normally unable to muster the expertise to construct a capital ship. Perhaps the most remarkable example of this is the Lord Daros, constructed at the feral world of Unloth. The primitive tribesmen dwelling there were influenced to mine and smelt metals which were then presented for "sacrifice" at sky temples established by the Planetary lord. The raw materials were then lifted into orbit on each vernal equinox. After a period of eleven yers, the tribes were rewarded for their effort with the sight of a bright new star moving across the heavens as the Lord Daros boosted out-system to join Battlefleet Obscuras.

The infamous "Lunar-class built in eleven years on a feral world. This is considered "remarkable", so it may not be that ALL such feral worlds could build one, but its still possible (perhaps in emergencies.) More commonly, ,it seems like the Lunar-Class can be expected to be built at hive worlds and "industrial" (civilized?) worlds without dedicated ship construction facilities. By that same token, we can infer that they can also build light cruisers and escorts with similar facility.

Nonetheless, it does reinforce the idea that simple heavy cruisers and smaller vessels could be built at potentially hundreds of thousands of other locales in the Imperium, possibly a million or more if feral worlds (and the like) are considered.

It also does indicate that some Hive Worlds might also have some sort of shipbuilding capacity as I inferred above.


BFG page 117 - despoiler class Battleship - 3 laid down, completed and in duty in under 250 years "after being laid down." Again, this tends to suggest that the "centuries" described above to build battleships is not a common or consistent figure, or that it may depend on who is building them. Only 3 were laid down, but it is worth mentioning the Bakka yards planned to build 15 before construction halted. And it was not indicated that this was a major strain on their shipbuilding capacity either - indeed it was more of a test of an experimental design..


BFG Page 125

Designs for a larger escort ship to fufill the role of the Cobra destroyer disappeare dfrom the Monsk orbital shipyard in the alte 40th millenium. Several years later, vessels of a remarkably similar configuration began raiding Imperial outposts and Convoys.

the description for the "infidel class raider" as mentioned in BFG. Despite being likened to a "larger Cobra Destroyer", we could infer tht this vessel may be as large as a small frigate. It started "raiding" within "several yers" of the plans for its design being stolen, which means that small frigate/large Destroyer-class vessels can be constructed in that tiemframe or less. Larger frigrates (and light cruisers) probably would not take much longer than that.

A Cobra class-destroyer, on the other hand, probably takes LESS time (say a year or less.)

Despite having vastly more resources than the fleets of Chaos, the Imperial Navy is constantly engaged in war and beset by the threat of rebellion and the many natural disasters that befall worlds throughout the galaxy, and as such at any given moment its fleets are spread very thinly, making it extremely difficult for the Imperium to dedicate significant fleet assets to any one star system except in the most dire emergencies. However, no force in the galaxy can bring to bear the immeasurably vast resources the Imperium can given enough time...

Two details of interest - it is implied heavily here that the Imperium has far more resources (warships, troops, etc.) than Chaos in the EoT, but that because it faces multiple threats and because of its size, its larger force is more diffused than Chaos (who can concentrate more effectively due to the anture of the EoT).

This quote also reiterates that the Imperial fleet is "spread thin" and that it lacks the ship assets to fortify ALL its worlds. This puts broad limits on ship numbers (IE they lack enough Batlteships or cruisers obviously to protect every world, but probably have enough escorts for at least one per planet - a single escort won't do much against most enemy fleets in the larger scale, since they're designed to usually operate in groups save all but the largest frigates.)

Imperial cruisers are vast constructions, most of them centuries or even millenia old. Those few which are constructed anew are often the result of years of toil by the population of an entire world - gigantic shipyards who might produce just a single vessel every few decades.

An indication of the scale of construction for cruiser-scale vessels. Note that it refers to cruises taking "years" in one hand and "decades" in another - while "years" and "decades" are not neccearily mutually exclusive, it requires a rather loose interpretation of "years" to make it fit. Furthermore, we have the "Lord Daros" example above, where a heavy cruiser is built in about a decade, rather than "a few decades."

The obvious answer is that the quote is giving a very broad timeframe (years to decades) as the cruiser class can be very broad (light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and even battlecruisers.). The "few decades" probably refers to the largest cruisers (or battlecruisers) built. Additionally, under this interpretation, we might infer that battleships as well can vary in construction rate (this would also further imply that not all battleships take "centuries" to build, either, since a large battlecruiser only takes a few decades. A small battleship shouldn't be THAT much more time consuming.)

It also implies that additions to the fleet are infrequent, presumably due to various factors (constant warfare, need to repair other vessels, warp storms or delays in shipping, etc.) Curiously, it also implies that most shipyards in the Imperium only produce ONE cruiser sized vessel at a time, which is in contrast to fleet bases (and probably Forgeworlds) - which can presumably lay down many battleship-scale vessels simultaneously (IE Bakka.)

Under such circumstances, a Rogue Trader may even be called upon to lead an expeditionary force and without an attendant fleet, perhaps numbering several dozen vessels.

An upper limit on the number of vessels a Rogue Trader might be expected ot lead - the classifications can vary.

Rogue traders can also acquire naval vessels that are either decomissioned or placed in a segmentum's "reserve fleet" ships from the Navy (mainly escorts.) (BFG magazine #19, page 7 ) They can also requisition a ship from the Navy (and most Admirals will hand over a ship or two to keep an eye on the Rogue Trader - according to rules, such forces may make up to "half" the escorts")

LAstly, some Space Fleet stuff to flesh out the construction rates. Again, Space Fleet stuff may or may not be overriden, but is provided as useful supplementary material.

The spaceships of the Imperium are vast constructions that take many decades to build. Each craft represents a huge investment of time and resources. But once completed, fitted out, armed and commissioned, a spaceship continues in service for centuries, even millennia. After that, it may be refitted, modernised, reconstructed and live on practically indefinitely. Barring a major accident or destruction in battle, a ship is immortal like a great city, its population and fabric existing in a constant state of decay and renewal.

This implies that the "space ships" of the Navy in general seem to take "decades" to build. It does not specify WHAT kind of vessels, but probably at least cruisers (escorts liek destroyers and frigates didn't exist in Space Fleet at tha ttime - they were, IIRC basically the same as attack craft.) This could be argued to include battleships as well, however.

It also indicates that the Imperium will make extnesive efforts to "re-construct" vessels if they are severely damaged in combat (like the Divine Right in BFG) - barring total (catastrophic) destruction, the Imperium can (given enough time) put any ship back into shape. Which has to say something about their durability and construction methods.

Its also possible it may indicate that one reason they take so long to build is because they are built with an eye towards longevity or durability. Nothing whatsoever indicates they are modular, and thus can be more time consuming (but harder to destroy and more readily refurbished.).

It can also indicate that if they chose to be more "slapdash" or put less emphasis on durability (if they even can) they might be able to build a less durable vessel more quickly (especially if they can use any sort of modularity - given the purpose and design behind other technology like lasguns, this is not neccearily a leap in logic. They may very well extend the "plug and play" mentality even to some capital ships.)

Throughout this time there is a constant process of rebuilding and renewal. Hulls are damaged by battles, asteroid storms and the ravages of the warp. Mechanical parts inevitably wear down. Electrical components fuse. Engine housings crack or melt under the immense pressure and heat created by plasma and warp drives. To combat this constant process of decay, every interstellar spaceship has a maintenance crew of hundreds or thousands of dedicated craftsmen, continuously striving to repair and refit the ship. Inside a large Imperial warship there are factories and workshops, huge forges and plasma furnaces, even small refineries and ore smelting plants to provide raw materials for the work of reconstruction.

This is only included to emphasize the "long term, independent operation" nature of Imperium ships. Their volumes are not given over solely to weapons or ground attack or fighters, but also to extensve repair and construction facilities to allow the ship to be heavily repaired or even rebuilt if situations call for it.

This also emphasizes something indicated by more specizlied ships like Space Marine and ARbites strike cruisers - a more specialized naval ship design could possibly carry more firepower than the more "long range/multipurpose" vessels. Admittedly much of the improvement probably comes from extensive use of ordnance or projectile weaponry (like Strike cruisers with bombardment cannon), but its nonetheless an interesting consideration. "ton for ton" the difference between Imperial Navy warships and the counterparts of other universes (say Star Wars) is probably alot less for a specialized design than it is for the sort of "long range, multipurpose" vessel like most Navy ships are.

The Emperor, Tyrant and Dominator are typical of the spaceships produced at the Jovian shipyards. The docks and workshops circle the planet like a ring of moons, home to the millions of Servitors, Technomats and Drones that work under the supervision of Artisans and Rune-Priests to build the Imperium's warships. Each ship is a vast undertaking. Many of those working on it will live and die during its construction, never seeing the magnificent warship they proudly strived so hard to create.

This refers to battleships taking long enough to build that "many" working on the ship will never see it finished. This implies many decades (40-50 years or so, say) but less than a century, since it does imply SOME will live to see it done. Furthermore, its quite likely that lifespans could be shorter due to the nature of such yards/worlds (probably not the most conducive to long term health, really. something that seems to be common among forge worlds, industrial worlds, and the more advanced hive worlds.) and thus the construction rates could be shorter.

On the other hand, this is also referrign to what are major shipyards - not neccesarily a fleet base, but yards in the same system as the fleet base (and of the most important system in the Imperium at that.) So this may not be a "common" construction rate for battleships.

[Luzifer's right hand]

This refers to battleships taking long enough to build that "many" working on the ship will never see it finished. This implies many decades (40-50 years or so, say) but less than a century, since it does imply SOME will live to see it done. Furthermore, its quite likely that lifespans could be shorter due to the nature of such yards/worlds (probably not the most conducive to long term health, really. something that seems to be common among forge worlds, industrial worlds, and the more advanced hive worlds.) and thus the construction rates could be shorter.

What if those that see the ships finsihed are techpriests and the like?
I mean people with cybernetic upgrades are involoved in stuff like vehicle maintenance in the books I read, there should many of them involved in the construction of a larger vessels.
Those fellows seem to have a rather long lifespans.

[andrewgpaul]

Just a point, Connor; the Cobra Destroyer did exist in Spacefleet, in a different guise (Stuff Of Legends).

My take on the designs from Spacefleet is that different Segmenta obviously produce different ship designs. Whether a 'Gothic Battleship' from Spacefleet (say, a Kar Duniash pattern) is equivalent to a Cypra Mundi pattern ship, or whether Battlefleet Ultima uses the same names for different ships is unknown.

[NecronLord]

If you give it a little squint, the Spacefleet models tend to look like an earlier form of ship than the old ones used by the chaos forces, which themselves are typically somwhat out of date. The HH artbooks show them coming in all shapes and sizes, so it could be rationalised as the Spacefleet ships being older (pre Heresy? pre Imperium) designs in some instances. As time goes on, ships seem to get less flat and more like flying cathedrals. The relative lack of adornment on, say, the Gothic Cruisers of Spacefleet suggests that they come from an age or area where a different aestetic is prized.

Of course, this is an extraordinarily weak argument based on model aestetics.

[Connor MacLeod]

Just a point, Connor; the Cobra Destroyer did exist in Spacefleet, in a different guise (Stuff Of Legends).

I know, I've seen it in a few 40K novels and in the Space Fleet stuff (I even referenced "destroyers" that took the place of attack craft/ordnance in BFG.) I just didn't call it the Cobra by name.

My take on the designs from Spacefleet is that different Segmenta obviously produce different ship designs. Whether a 'Gothic Battleship' from Spacefleet (say, a Kar Duniash pattern) is equivalent to a Cypra Mundi pattern ship, or whether Battlefleet Ultima uses the same names for different ships is unknown.

The Space Fleet stuff has been cited in earlier 40K novels (as discussed some time in the past in the First and Only thread) so they probably do exist somewhere. I'd figure in "modern" 40K times, ,they'd either be part of a reserve fleet or an obscure part of the segmentum or Sector.

Visually I have no frigging clue what they look like, but we can ignore the miniatures on game mechanics grounds if need be.

[Connor MacLeod]

This refers to battleships taking long enough to build that "many" working on the ship will never see it finished. This implies many decades (40-50 years or so, say) but less than a century, since it does imply SOME will live to see it done. Furthermore, its quite likely that lifespans could be shorter due to the nature of such yards/worlds (probably not the most conducive to long term health, really. something that seems to be common among forge worlds, industrial worlds, and the more advanced hive worlds.) and thus the construction rates could be shorter.

What if those that see the ships finsihed are techpriests and the like?
I mean people with cybernetic upgrades are involoved in stuff like vehicle maintenance in the books I read, there should many of them involved in the construction of a larger vessels.
Those fellows seem to have a rather long lifespans.

Perhaps, but the calcs are still constrained by other factors (less than 250 years, for a battleship, for example.) if not overridden. As I noted there's a great deal of variance in ship construction.

[Connor MacLeod]

Misc remaining BFG stuff and additional calcs:

BFG page 120:

Several of these vessels combined can cripple the largest battleships and it was a force formed from the Doombringer, Steel Fang, and Monstrous that destroyed the Imperial battleship Relentless Persecution (Brought in from the Ardekka SEctor) during the closing actions of the Gothic War.

This implies that a battleship is several times more powerful than cruisers (heavy cruisers).

As per the BFG rulebook and BGH mag 07)Iconoclast destroyers are a threat to capital ships "in numbers" - we don't know how many but I'd be hard pressed to say more than a handful of suqadrons to a battleship, and probably a squad or two (of destroyers) to a cruiser.

This gives us a rough indication of the differences in firepower we can expect among 40K vessels, although its at best a rough figure. Call it a factor of 2-5x between class/subclass (IE battleship to battlecuriser, battlecruiser to heavy cruiser, etc.)

BFG magainze page - Lunar class cruiser has at least 16 plasma gun batteries in its broadside.) other weapons (lasers, fusion beams, macro cannon, etc.) probably exist in similar numbers. We know from Angels of Darkness and Warriors of Ultamar that frigate/cruiser scale vessels can fire "hundreds" of shots from broadsides.

BFG mag 15, page 16

The Seditio Opprimere was reduced to a near hulk at the Battle of Prandium. It was rebuilt as a gunship with powerful long-range plasma lances to give the Ultramarines stand-off fire support when fighting Tyranids using the new fleet tactics. This severely compromised the ability of the barge to deploy troops.

BFG rulebook mentions laser and fusion lances, but this battle barge is equipped with "plasma' lances. I'd imagine they're basically "parrticle beam lances", short ranged but much more destructive (probably on par with fusion lances, but with greater range.)

BFG magazine 16, page 18

There could never be enough warships to fortify all of the millions of worlds in the galaxy that make up the Undying Emperor's domain, and some planetary populations may go decades or even generations without once having the privilege of an Imperial cruiser silently gliding into orbit overhead.

...

... it is not unheard of for smaller sub-sectors to place their security solely in the hands of a single cruiser or escort squadron.

- note again reference to "millions" of worlds, Further, we see reiteration that it is impossible for the Imperium to totally ensure that every planet has adequate protection (which, by this inidcation, probably means a cruiser or escort squadron.) This implies that tens of millions or hundreds of millions of warp capable vessels is out of the question (though I doubt anyone would argue otherwise.)

This source also implies that some (but not most) systems are visited by a cruiser or "escort squadron" once every few decades or "generations' without seeing a cruiser. This implies that the number of cruisers is between 1/20th and 1/100th the number of planets, which confrims the "many tens of thousands of cruisers" estimate quite closely (50,000-100,000 seems reasonable, particularily since the "some but not most" bit implies the ratios may be conservative.)

Likewise, it also implies many tens of thousands of escort squadrons, for many hundreds of thousands of escorts.

This is further confirmed by the refrence to a sub-sector being protected by a "single cruiser or escort squadron". Given ~10,000 sectors and ~6-7 sub-sectors for each sector, you're getting aorund 60-70 thousand cruisers and/or escort squadrons, minimum.

[

"Billions" of guardsman in the sector alone - literally this implies at least 4 billion, maybe as much as 20 billion (2 10 billions) in this single Sector alone. If we assume this is a reasonable "standard" allotment per sector (and most indications seem to think Corriba Sector is fairly "average." - this (assuming ~10,000 Sectors) is indicative of many trillions or (more probably) tens of trillions of Guardsman in the Imperium total. If we go with the 20 billion figure, it could reach several hundred trillion.

By extent, we can also infer that if these represent the 10% elite of regular PDF, there are probably 10x as many PDF troops scattered across the Imperium as well. (This meshes with the "trillions of troops" mentioned in the Soul Drinkers novels

Oh, and according to the magazine, the Corribra sector also has Squat Homeworlds nearby, although they supposedly "haven't been heard from in a few years".

edit: not quite done with calcs yet. I have at least one more big one on the Imperial Guard, and I'm going to do one more Space Fleet one just for shits and giggles.

[andrewgpaul]

Visually I have no frigging clue what they look like, but we can ignore the miniatures on game mechanics grounds if need be.

I'd be disinclined to do that, since I've read in places that all the other fluff comes from the miniature designs (ignoring scaling issues like Catachans being beefier than Space Marines for instance).

As for seeing them, Stuff Of Legends has scans of all the pages from the old catalogue where they featured (scroll down the page a bit for links).

[andrewgpaul]

One thing to note is, if those Spacefleet Battleships are comparable in size to BFG cruisers, then the guns on the Dominator and Annihilator are vastly bigger than nova cannon. Oh, and the Dicatator is incredibly stupid.

[Keevan_Colton]

One thing to consider is that the Black Templars have way more ships than you'd expect. The fluff consistently says that they are believed to be about the size of one of the original legions...which would need a damn site more ships to get it about. And the Dark Angels are a peculiar case in terms of ships since their entire chapter is fleet based with no homeworld since the destruction of Calaban at the end of the horus heresy, so it's likely they're a little different from most in terms of organisation and crewing.

[Connor MacLeod]

more Space Fleet stuff, next to last analysis.

The following list briefly outlines the important ranks in the organisation of a Segmentum's warfleet (often also known as the naval fleet).
Warfleet Commander
The highest ranking of the military officers is the Warfleet Commander. He is in charge of the entire naval contingent of a Segmentum, numbering many thousands of warships. There are only five Warfleet Commanders, one for each of the Segmentae Majors. They rank equally, although command of the Warfleet Solar is generally regarded as the most prestigious position.

The Warfleet Commander formulates the naval fleet strategy throughout the entire Segmentum, overseeing repair schedules, supervising construction programs and ensuring the general space-worthiness of the fleet. His personal staff is divided into armament, maintenance, design, construction and a thousand other working committees.

A Segmentum naval force comprises "many thousands" of warships. This is clearly meant to include "tens/hundreds' of thousands, given my calcs already, but we can infer that it means less than a million (active vessels, anyhow.) This might cap the total Naval strength at around 5-10 million (with tens or hundreds of millions of transports and merchant vessels). I also expect that much of the detail pertaining to the ranks and roles have been overriden by BFG onwards (IE Warmasters, etc.) but the general ideas probably remain true.

Space Commanders
Under the Warfleet Commander are individual Space Commanders responsible for naval operations within each sector. The Space Commander is based at the Sector Fortress, along with other sector-level administrative staff of the Administratum and other branches of the Adeptus Terra. He must answer not only to his naval superior, the Warfleet Commander, but also to the Adeptus Sector Commander in overall charge of the sector.
The Space Commander has direct command of a portion of the Segmentum's warfleet. A typical command comprises about 50 interstellar ships, although the number would obviously vary depending upon the needs of the sector. Fifty ships is very few when you consider that a typical sector has between 30 and 40 thousand stars forming a cube with sides approximately 200 light years long!

These warships are divided up into patrol vessels, ships on permanent station in one star system and the reserve fleet. The reserve fleet is usually stationed at the Sector Fortress.

While "warfleet commander/space c ommander" terms seem to have been overriden by BFG (again Terminology has changed) the concept remains
the same: at least 50 (or more) warp capable ships assigned per Sector.

It also tells us a typical Sector has between 30-40,000 stars in a 200 light year long cube, all data I have mentioned previously from BFG.
It may give us some hints about their distributions: for example some ships are permanantly stationed in some systems, some patrol, and some form a reserve stationed at the Sector base.

Group Commanders
Group Commanders are in charge of a portion of a sector's fleet. They are sometimes based around the Sector Fortress or, more often, on one of the permanently-manned docking stations in one of the sub-sectors. Group Commanders are responsible for patrolling and keeping order within sub- sectors and inter-sectors around their base.

A typical command consists of a sub-sector base, noncombatant staff and a couple of squadrons of ships. One squadron is usually a patrol squadron, while the other is held in reserve to meet specific threats.

Group commanders often serve as Battlefleet Commanders when the need arises. The battlefleet is a temporary force, summoned to meet a single crisis or defeat a particular enemy. It usually consists of spaceships from only two or three neighbouring sub-sectors at most. The Battlefleet Commander is generally the most senior of the Group Commanders whose warships are involved in the battle.

This tells us:

- Naval commands establish sub-sector bases to supplement sector bases. A "sub sector" command comprises 2-3 squadrons of ships (one for patrol and one for reserve.) Given teh duties, we could probably expect the "patrol" squadron to be escorts and/or light cruisers, and the "reserve" to be heavy cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships.

- Given 6-7 sub-sectors in a sector, we can infer between 12-21 squadrons per Sector (50-100 ships on average, which fits with the 50-75 ship estimate.) This might tend to temphasize towards the higher end of teh scale though (75-100 ships), especailly since it hints at a large number of light squadrons (Escorts and such.)

Squadron Commanders
A Squadron Commander is in charge of a squadron of spaceships. He is also a ship Captain and leads his squadron from the bridge of the ship he commands. A typical squadron might be three spacecraft of which the Commander's ship is one.
While the Battlelfeet Commander dictates the overall tactics of the force, the Squadron Commander's task is to make decisions about the formation and manoeuvres of the spaceships he leads.

A typcial squadron is "three" ships, which means that a sub-sector can have around 4-6 vessels minimum.

[Connor MacLeod]

One thing to consider is that the Black Templars have way more ships than you'd expect. The fluff consistently says that they are believed to be about the size of one of the original legions...which would need a damn site more ships to get it about. And the Dark Angels are a peculiar case in terms of ships since their entire chapter is fleet based with no homeworld since the destruction of Calaban at the end of the horus heresy, so it's likely they're a little different from most in terms of organisation and crewing.

Well yes, but that doesn't neccesarily mean they're the "rule", they may be exceptions. We know the Ultramarines had a fairly large fleet too because their fleet also doubled as the defense forces for the systems they held. And the Soul Drinkers supposedly had a sizable fleet as well. We know the Space Wolves had at least 14-15 cruiser/battleship scale vessels as well.

In the case of the Black Templars I doubt they'd have more than a few hundred vessels tops, and they're almost certainly an exception. I don't expect those examples would affect the calcs by more than an order of magnitude, at most, and probably quite a bit less.

[Connor MacLeod]

Visually I have no frigging clue what they look like, but we can ignore the miniatures on game mechanics grounds if need be.

I'd be disinclined to do that, since I've read in places that all the other fluff comes from the miniature designs (ignoring scaling issues like Catachans being beefier than Space Marines for instance).

As for seeing them, Stuff Of Legends has scans of all the pages from the old catalogue where they featured (scroll down the page a bit for links).

I've got Eye of Terror and the Inquisition War, nothing about either of them tends to hint very heavily at the shapes/designs of the vessels - nothing detailed enough that retconning it is an issue, anyhow.

[Connor MacLeod]

Last major calc: Imperial Guard stuff, again...

Quotas are normally set each generation, but in times of great need, the Administratum may require a planet to supply two or more raisings from a single generation. During the wars of the Horus Heresy, for example, Necromunda was required to provide dozens of separate raisings, supplying the Guard with hundreds of millions of troops in total. Many hive worlds suffered similar burdens, while at the other end of the scale, many agricultural and feral worlds were almost entirely stripped of their meagre populations, and had to be left for several generations in order for their populations to recover.

While the numbers given evidently date back to the "Horus Heresy", we can safely infer that they apply in "modern" 40K times due to the fact the Bureaucracy of the Imperium (Munitorum and Administratum both) have extreme inertia and stagnation behind it. Its unliekly that its practices have changed much, if any, in thousands of years. And as such, this gives us indications of total "generational" raisings from both Hive and Feral worlds. The 3rd edition Codex gives their populations as such:

Civilized: 15,000,000 to 10,000,000,000

Hive Worlds: 100,000,000,000 to 500,000,000,000

Agri Worlds: 15,000 to 1,000,000

Feral worlds: 100,000 to 5,000,000

Feudal worlds: 10,000,000 to 500,000,000

Death Worlds: 1,000 to 15,000,000

Forge worlds: 1,000,000 to 15,000,000

Rogue Trader's rulebook implied that Civilized worlds were the most common type. This may still be true, although probably not as much so as it was. From the number of planets estimated before, and the populations per planet given above, we can estimate total populations, as well as Guard (and PDF) numbers and a breakdown from each type of world:

The aforemetnioned "numbers of worlds:

20,000-120,000 hive worlds

10,000-40,000 Forge worlds

500,000-700,000 Civilised worlds

200,000-300,000 Agri worlds

1,000,000 - 2,000,000 (minimum) "other" worlds. Assume half are "feral" and half are "feudal"


Hive world regimental raisings:

"hundreds of millions" of troops from Necromunda and all other Hive worlds in the Imperium "total." Assuming 200 million minimum, this yields between 4 trillion and 24 trillion troops collectively from the Hive Worlds. If we assume closer to 1 billion, that's 20 trillion to 120 trillion troops raised in a generation.

Agri-world Regimental Raisings:

According to the quote above, Agri worlds were "nearly stripped" of their populations. If we assume this means 80% of the people removed, this means between 12,000 and 800,000 per planet. At 200,000, the minimum is at least 2.4 billion (3.6 billion at 300,000 Agri worlds.) At 800,000 per planet and 200,000 planets, that is 160 billion troops raised (240 billion at 300,000 planets). This may be "generous" though, as Agri worlds represent a major source of food in the Imperium, and strripping their populations would doubtless hinder that, so it would not be done save in extreme emergencies. (In such a case, assume that a tenth of this is probably the "actual" figure - less than "ten percent" of the world's population.)

Feral world regimental raisings:

Like Agri-worlds, Feral worlds are "nearly stripped" of their populations. assuming similar proportions as in the agri-world example (80,000 to 4,000,000 population recruited), and half a million to amillion "feral worlds", the regimental raising numbers yield between 40 billion and 2 trillion troops minimum. At 1 million, the number is 80 billion and 4 trillion troops respectively.

Forge world regimental raisings:

I don't know for sure if Forge Worlds provide Regimental tithes to the Guard, but we might infer that it refers to Tech Guard/Skitarii regiments instead, who may ally themselves with the Guard nominally, at least. We don't know the "number" like we do for the Feral/Agri worlds, but we can infer a ratio frrom the information we are given. Hive worlds seem to contribute between .01 and .0005 of their total populations to the Guard. Assuming a Forge World contributes 1% of its population to "regiments", ,that comes to between 10,000 and 150,000 troops per Forge world, or 100 million to 1.5 billion troops from forge worlds (assuming 10K worlds.) Assuming 40K worlds, this jumps to 400 million and 6 billion troops.

Despite the low numbers, this might be made up by the relatively advanced tech and sophisticated devices that can be produced on a Forge World.

Civilized world regimental raisings:

Like Forge Worlds, we don't know the ratios, but we can infer them based on Hive Worlds to be 1/100 and 1/1000 the population of the world. We can double check this with the earlier reference from Epic of "millions of soldiers" in a PDF force - we know 10% are recruited into the Guard, so the ratio seems to work.

With 500,000-700,000 worlds, and the population between 15 million and 10 billion, the recruitment is as follows:

For 1% of the population - 150,000 and 100,000,000 troops per planet, yielding between 75 billion and 50 trillion troops from Civilized worlds, (105 billion and 70 trillion troops for 700,000 worlds.)

For .1% of the population - 15,000 and 10,000,000 troops per planet, yielding between 7.5 billion and 5 trillion troops from Civilized worlds. (10.5 billion and 7 trillion troops for 700,000 worlds)

Feudal World regimental raisings:

Like Forge and Civilized, we don't know the breakdown for feudal worlds, but we can infer. Feudal worlds probably fall between "Feral and Agri" worlds and "civilized" worlds in terms of t heir tithing - that is, they don't contribute most of their population, but they do contribute alot more than a small fraction of it. Given that, 10% or so seems a likely percentage. Given half a million to a million Feudal worlds, each world can be expected to give between 1 million and 50 million troops, with numbers totalling between 500 billion and 25 trillion troops (half a million worlds) to 1 trillion to 50 trillion troops (a million feudal worlds.)


Death worlds:

No numbers on Death Worlds per se, but they probably represent a tiny fraction of the guard overall, due both to the limited number of worlds and their limited populations - its unliekly that Death worlds contribute more than a few tens or hundreds of milllions of troops, or billions tops (which fits with their generally specialized and "Elite" status.)

Addendum

As a check, we can look at the Tanith raisings (probably a large Agri world/small civilized world.). We know [frfom the Ghostmaker analyis page) that the Tanith raised 3 regiments (~6,000 troops) from the militia (which would number 60,000), which is between 1/16th and 1/250th of the planet's populace (depending on which you go with Tanith being.

In broad strokes, this means that civilized planets will have millions/tens of millions of troops in their PDFs - Moderate-sized Hive Worlds coudl have hundreds of millions. (A small civilised/Hive World in Chapter War with "billions" had hundreds of regiments - fores tha could number millions/tens of millions easily as well.)

Thus, it seems likely that the numbers estalbished above are roughly accurate to within an order of magnitude or so of the real value, providing a reliable level of consistency with the sources I outlined above.


Conclusion:

These figures also poitn to many trillions or tens of trillions of troops in the Imperila Guard, minimum, possibly as high as several hundred trillion. Of that, the vast majority (as can be expecteD) come from Hive and Civilized worlds, with more from the latter due to their vastly greater populations. Feral and Agri worlds, on the other hand, provide the smallest number of regiments, due to their lower populations (though in the case of Feral worlds, the potentially greater number of systems may offset this.) Feudal worlds are unknown, but could potentially also be a big contributor of numbers as well.

On top of this, we can also conclude safely that a large percentage of the Imperial Guard (nearly or over half, depending on how you interpret the figures) come from very high-technology or well developed/industrial worlds (especially hive worlds.) This will also tell us something about the sort of gear and equipment they carry (as opposed to Feudal or Feral regiments, which are little more than cannon fodder.) It is therefore quite reasonable to expect that a Hive or civilzied-world raised Regiment would have access to things like auspex or infra-scopes for rifles, comm beads, or other gear like that. This also runs contrary to the idea that the Imperial Guard is consistently "under-teched", as some people would have us believe.

Addendum: Planetary Defense Force numbers:

We know from Tactica Imperialis and the 2nd Edition Guard Codex that 10% of a planet's PDF forces are typically earmarked for Guard service. This also means that we can expect the Guard forces to be outnumbered by PDF forces by a factor of 10 (more or less.) This in turn means that the Imperium's PDF forces will run from tens to hundreds of trillions of troops at least, and psosibly into the low quadrillions.

[Connor MacLeod]

As a "what the hell" matter I decided to do the "total population" figures seperately:

Hive world
100 billion to 500 billion average, with 20,000-120,000 such worlds:

- 2 quadrillion to 10 quadrillion (20,000 hive planets) total people living in hive worlds.

- 12 quadrillion to 60 quadrillion (120,000 Hive planets) total people living on hive worlds


Forge Worlds

1 million to 15 million average, 10,000-40,000 such worlds estimated

- 10 billion to 150 billion population (10,000 planets)

- 40 billion to 600 billion population (40,000 planets)

Civilised worlds

15 million to 10 billion average, 500,000-700,000 planets estimated

- 7.5 trillion to 5 quadrillion population (500,000 planets)

- 10.5 trillion to 7 quadrillion population (700,000 planets)


Agri worlds

15,000 to 1,000,000 average population, 200,000-300,000 planets estimated

- 3 billion to 200 billion population, (200,000 planets)

- 4.5 billion to 300 billion population, (300,000 planets)


Feral Worlds

100,000 to 5,000,000 population, est. 1/2 to 1 million or more worlds

- 50 billion to 2.5 trillion population (half a million planets)

- 100 billion to 5 trillion population (1 million planets)

Feudal worlds

10 million to 500 million population, est. half a million to 1 million (or greater) such worlds

- 5 trillion to 250 trillion population (half a million planets)

- 10 trillion to 500 trillion population ( a million planets)


Again, unsurprising that Hive Worlds (and to a smaller extent, civilized worlds) contribute the greatest percentage of the total population in the Imperium. The total population can of course, probably reach into the quadrillions quite easily now. This also means that the potential "military" pool of canidates is greatly undertapped, despite the state of supposed "constant war" the Imperium is under. Given 10% of its population mobilized for war, you could easily expect quadrillions of troops in the Guard and Navies, nevermind the PDF. Of course, such forces wouldn't be nearly as well trained, but the potentail remains there.

In short, if the Imperium went on a REAL war footing it has a real potential to fuck over any enemy with numbers and firepower. I also suspect that in a "back to the wall" sort of situation the Imperium could be expected to deal with anything short of the Chaos gods incarnating directly in the Materium or a major war against the fully-awakend Necrontyr.

[The Grim Squeaker]

In short, if the Imperium went on a REAL war footing it has a real potential to fuck over any enemy with numbers and firepower. I also suspect that in a "back to the wall" sort of situation the Imperium could be expected to deal with anything short of the Chaos gods incarnating directly in the Materium or a major war against the fully-awakend Necrontyr.

This is quite consistent with "The Imperium truly mobilizing for the first time since the first Tyranid hive fleets" Fluff (Regarding the new Hive fleets).
Disturbingly, the same piece mentions a minimum of 500% mobilization or "Every able-bodied man and woman taking up arms".

In addition, the Chaos gods manifesting would mean that your soldiers are now insane, regardless of numbers and the Necrons simply zap terra from orbit .

Excellent and useful analysis

[Ford Prefect]

In short, if the Imperium went on a REAL war footing it has a real potential to fuck over any enemy with numbers and firepower. I also suspect that in a "back to the wall" sort of situation the Imperium could be expected to deal with anything short of the Chaos gods incarnating directly in the Materium or a major war against the fully-awakend Necrontyr.

They couldn't beat the Tyranids - by their own admission, there aren't enough bullets in the Imperium to do it. Comparitively, the Orks may well outnumber them within the Milky Way*; there is a map in an issue of White Dwarf which shows the concentration of Ork worlds across the galaxy, and it is rather scary. If I could find the issue, I could make a rough estimate.

*There are Orks outside the Milky Way, but including them is unfair. Also, there's no real indication about how much of the Ooniverse the Orks cover, just that they're out there.

[Connor MacLeod]

In short, if the Imperium went on a REAL war footing it has a real potential to fuck over any enemy with numbers and firepower. I also suspect that in a "back to the wall" sort of situation the Imperium could be expected to deal with anything short of the Chaos gods incarnating directly in the Materium or a major war against the fully-awakend Necrontyr.

This is quite consistent with "The Imperium truly mobilizing for the first time since the first Tyranid hive fleets" Fluff (Regarding the new Hive fleets).
Disturbingly, the same piece mentions a minimum of 500% mobilization or "Every able-bodied man and woman taking up arms".

I'm aware of this . However:

a.) it was "at least 500%" increase in mobilization, they implied it could be higher

b.) it was only across 3 of the five segmentum (though at least one IIRC was Ultima, which is one of the bigger/most powerful ones.)

[Connor MacLeod]

They couldn't beat the Tyranids - by their own admission, there aren't enough bullets in the Imperium to do it. Comparitively, the Orks may well outnumber them within the Milky Way*; there is a map in an issue of White Dwarf which shows the concentration of Ork worlds across the galaxy, and it is rather scary. If I could find the issue, I could make a rough estimate.

Says where? Its been established in the later codexes (the one Death mentioned) that they're a major threat and there isn't a guarantee of sucess, but they're hardly DOOMED. Genestealer cults aside, the Tyranids are not exactly known for stealth, and there are certain factors that make them rather predictable. They've been manipulated at least once into fighting others (like the Orks) so it can probably happen again (and probably the Necrons. The Necrons are as l ikely to view them as being as big a threat as anyone else.) Chaos probably won't look too well on the Tyranids gobbling up the galaxy before they can conquer it (I also doubt the Chaos Gods would care for every follwoer and potential follower being gobbled up either - I'm pretty sure they need them.)

The Eldar at least (and possibly the Tau) would doubtless ally if the Tyranids stood to wipe anyone out - its hardly in their best interests (at this point) for the Imperium to go down, since they're the dominant power on the block (and we know the Eldar and Humans have allied in the past on numerous occasions.)

The major problem in fighting the Tyranids (like in fighting every other enemy in the Imperium) is that the Imperium cannot effectively bring its full strength to bear on any one enemy without leaving it exposed to the others. If the Imperium could manage to fight them one at a time, they probably COULD crush most of them eventually. But they're not nearly that obliging, so things become much harder for them, despite being the biggest power out there (so far).

Of course, the fact that eveyone is almost always fighting each other is also a blessing, because those enemies are as likely to fight the Tyranids (or each other) as the Imperium also, so that prevents them from concentrating wholly on them as well.

[Connor MacLeod]

Argh. I thought I was done iwth this, but I have some more tirdbits to add. More misc addenda:

Epic 40K 2nd edition: Armies of the Imperium:

page 44

A typical regiment may be between two and six thousand men strong and as there are over a million worlds in the Imperium the potential number of recruits is enormous. The size of an individual army depends on circumstancecs, but it is quite common for armies to include more than a hundred regiments in all.

"Armies" by this definition comprise "more than a hundred" regiments. This implies between 200,000 and 600,0000 troops minimum. This could be more, given other (later?) sources specify larger numbers per regiment (tens or hundreds of thousands, for potentially millions/tens of millions of troops.)


Codex IG, 2nd, page 6

The Imperial Guard is not a single army but many armies of countless millions of men and fighting machines. At any one time the Imperial Guard fight across a hundred warzones and upon ten thousand planets.

....

Each Army and each war is unique in at least some respects.

Mention of "armies of countless millions of men and fighting machines." a bit vague, but it implies each "army" generally comprises millions of troops and machines.

It also is indicative of the scale of conflict (the precise numbers do vary from "hundreds" to "thousands" depending on the source, be it novel or game fluff.) but as an order of magnitude estimate, it does indicate that, relative to its overall size, only a small percentage of the Imperium is truly "at war" at any given time. Which makes sense, because the Imperium could have no realistic chance of existing, much less expanding, if it were constantly at war everywhere (what passes for trade would be disrupted, as would industry, populations, etc.)

As often noted, the distinction is probably due to propoganda and perception - they're not ALWAYS at war all over, ,they're just taught to think that way and it usually "seems" to be (because, in truth, they possibly COULD be at war at any time - there's no way of telling where the next threat will strike from or where.)

Every planetary Lord in the imperium recruits, equips and maintains his own planetary defencee forces. The number and types of troops vary tremendously from world to world. The forces of a multi-billion populaton hive world like Necromunda are vastly different from those of a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza. Regardless of the size of its armies, each world is obliged to make 10% of its total armed forces available for recruitment into the Imperial Guard in any year.

An army is gathered from a number of worlds, usually over a radius of no more than ten thousand light years, and its theoretical size is a tenth of the entire armed forces of thsoe worlds. In practice, planetary Lords are often called upon to provide greater forces and more ferquently, especially if the immediate danger is great. On the other hand a planet which is far from any war zone may not be called upon to provide troops for manyy decades.

The "10% of PDF forces earmarked for the Guard" statement - its noted that tithe is a "standing" one - the first kind as noted in the more recent Guard Codex. IT also notes (which is the second kind of tithe mentioned in the latest Codex) that there is also the "conditional" tithe, that of additional troops provided should a situation (IE a war breaking out) merit it.

This also establishes that the "standing' Guard armies over a given time period are going to be at a definite, fixed number (10% of the PDFs will almost always be skimmed off, at some point at least) It also represents that this is probably a more professional, better trained, and more disciplined/dedicated segment of the Guard - their PDF training (and the "best' of the PDFs at that) augmented by additional Guard training as well as the providence of better equipment.

The other part, the "conditional" raisings, are probably much more "nebulous" in terms of quality, lower training standards, and probably prone to greater attirtion (offset by the potentially greater numbers.) Of course, if they survive, the survivors will probably be just as skilled and dangerous as the "standing" forces recruited from the PDFs.

Troops recruited from a world are formed into a single Imperial Guard regiment. As a result there is no such thing as a typical size for a regiment. REgiments can consist of a few hundred men or hundreds of thousands, depending on the size of their Lord's armies.

As has been mentioned in the past, there is no "fixed" regiment size. The Gudrunite rifles being the oft-repeated example, and the probable genesis of that notion is probably from here. This DOES represent a change from the Epic stuff (earlier stuff). Instead of forming a single "army", its forming a single "regiment" (although the distinction probahly is meaningless since the approximate numbers will be the same.) However, its also worth noting that this could vary depending on the "type" of tithe, the planet providing the troops, or both, since we know some planets do raise multiple regiments at one time (Tanith raised 3, from its PDF, prior to its death IIRC.) the massive "single regiment" raisings like the Gudrunite Rifles probably would be more commonly a "conditional" raising (which is basically what the Gudrunite rifles were - they were raised for an upcoming Crusade.)

AS there are approximately a million worlds in the Imperium the variety of uniforms, fighting stayles and levels of equipment can be hardly imagined. However, there are some very large planets which provide particularily vast forces, and a regiment from such a world might constitute almost an entire army.

this indicates some worlds (like Hive Worlds) provide substantially more troops than others, and that some planets "regiments" will be equivalent to armies on others. This implies that Hive Worlds provide at least many hundreds of thousands of troops. With 20,000 Hive worlds, this means at least four to twelve billion Guardsman from hives alone, minimum.

However, we know of the Gudrunite rifles providing upwards of 750,000, and Gudrun isn't remotely a Hive World (more a civilized one, if a rather major one) We could reasonably expect a hive World to provide millions of troops (at least an order of magnitude, given the difference in population.) Which also meshes with the fact we know of armies in the novels and such that do number in the millions. This leads to many hundreds of billions of troops from Hive worlds alone, which seems more likely.

The Imperial Guard makes up the vast bulk of the planetary defence forces of the Imperium's millions of worlds, it is a huge military force of Humans and abhumans.

No one knows the true size of the Imperial Guard, and only the huge Codex Exercitus, maintained on Terra by the highest ranks of the Administratum, contains the necessary data for such a calculation. Therea re some guesses and rumours - some say that if the whole of the Imperial Guard were paraded shoulder to shoulder they would cover the entire planetary surfaces of such-and-such a system, or stretch from Terra to such and such a star.

This probably shoudl be taken as something like hyperbole (though similar statements appear in the IIUP), but it does hint at many trillions or quadrillions of troops (or potentail troops - the Guard need have no fixed size, of course.)

Also note the "millions of worlds" reference.

For ten thousand years the Imperium has shielded and nurtured a million human worlds.

This indicates that the IoM hs comprised at least a million worlds since the Heresy era, and this probably is the absolute minimum. It also means 10,000 years of fluctuation (expansion as well as loss, with an emphasis on expansion) and probably lends greater credence to the "millions of worlds" mentioned in certain sources.

Civilized worlds: This is the widest category comrpising any world, generally self-sufficient, with a contemporary technology base that does not comply with other specification. Includes major sub-categories Cardinal Worlds[cc], Garden Worlds [cg], and Mining Worlds [cm]

Hive worlds: surface generally inhosptiable, even deadly to human life after centuries of processing. Urban conglomerations called Hives, many miles in height, are principle population centres. Factory, mining, and atmosphere processing are main industries.

Descriuption of Hive and civilized worlds form the 3rd edition rules.

Note that Hives are involved in "factory, mining, and atmosphere processing" The first two point to the high level of industrialization (and technical sophisticaiton) of such worlds. The latter points to a measure of terraforming capability for the Imperium - they can at least ensure breathable atmospheres on planets (because Hives are generally inhospitable.) This is also hined at in one of the Ciaphas Cain short stories.

Civilized Worlds are the "widest" category, implying that they are the most numerous and most varied, this further reinfores that manyn of the worlds in the Imperium are probably in the "civilized" category.

Also note the bit on "self sufficiency" - this may seem inconsistent with "fabric of the Imperium", which indicates that only a "few" worlds can be called "truly" self sufficient (and thus require much shipping), but this is not neccesarily so. The Imperium as such employs a high level of technology that is standardized, but not every planet can neccesarily produce every object (or even if they can, they don't all do it equally well.) Some worlds can produce something that others can't. And other worlds may possess resourcse that yet more planets need. Even if a planet has most of the basics (food, air, natural resources) it can still need other things that only another world can provide (A civilzied world may still need the advanced technological devices provided by forge and hive worlds, for example.)

In this context, we can consider the "self sufficiency" to be "mostly self sufficient" - but to maintain Imperium standard levels of technology and such, they do require resources and devices from other worlds (without which a civilized world may fall back to say, ,a more 20th century level of capability.) Agri worlds and mining worlds almost ceertainly are in a similar state. and Forge and hive Worlds, of course, need food and supplies from other worlds.

Civilised worlds are by far the most common of all the types of settlement in the Imperium. The people inhabit urban centres supplised by the planet's own natural resources and agriculture. These worlds are self-sufficient, ,and have reasonable, but not excessive populations. The social and technological base varies from world to world, although acess to fully-developed technolgy is usually possible.

Hive worlds are distinguished by vast, continent-spanning cities, often built high into the sky and deep below the ground.

Industrial worlds are given over to industrial processes such as manufacturing and mining . They are only sparsely populated, as most work is carried out by machinery and robots. most industrial worlds are developed only for mining and, even then, a planet must be extremely minereal rich if the effort is to be justified. Noramlly, manufacturing of goods takes place on ordinary, inhabited planets, because the costs and hazards of inter-stellar flight are considerable.

Again note that "civilized" worlds are self sufficient, (see above.) Also note the refrence to "access to fully developed technology" which would justify the explanation for the apparent disrecpancy etween self sufficiency and the "fabric of the Imperium" reference - shipping is probably that "very" acess, and the point of dependency for such otherwise self-sufficient worlds. (IE they can't produce or provide EVERYTHING.)

Industrial worlds are probably the early name for Forge Worlds, although it might be argued that some civilized worlds (and hive worlds) are very industrial (since Mining worlds are mentioned here, which are described also as being a civilized world. It also discusses briefly the scope and scale of manufacturing and production, and indicates that a 'industrial worlds/forge world" can expect high levels of automation (or could, at least.)

Hive worlds are mentioned and noticable for the reference to 'continent spanning cities" that extend high up into the sky and below grround. This obviously varies from hive world to hive world (Earth matches this, though other places like Stalinvast, Vervun, or Necromunda do not.) Its interesting insofar as it hints at how much firepower MIGHT be needed to destroy some 40K cities. Which is to say, alot. (Teratons or petatons, for the "continent spanning" ones, no doubt.)

[Connor MacLeod]

These are collections from a number of "fluff library" sourcecs I found on the net and have cited elsewhere. Most of the artilces seem to come from White Dwarf or other magazines, so I assume they're authentic.
In case anyone is curious the links are:

http://www.gamehobby.net/subject_indexe ... index.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/pangolin ... index.html

Just some added (interesting) data:

Murder is very common throughout all the civilised settlements of Imperial worlds. Sometimes in the overcrowded hive worlds and overpopulated civilised worlds, murders can go undetected, unsolved, or not bothered with. Many are simply put on holoscript and filed in the Administratum and will probably never be solved. Many murders are gang-related, since the bulk of humanity comes from hive worlds and people there are almost always a member of a gang.

The bulk of the total (estimated) human population in the Imperium is comprised in Hive Worlds, which tends to lend credence to my calculation estimates as I did them. Which, of course, is gratifying. Civilized worlds, of course, make up another sizable percentage. The rest probably are the "minor" planets outside the "million or so' major ones - the feudal and feral worlds and the like.

A Hive World has a population which far outweighs its own ability to feed or support it, often exceeding a thousand billion people on a planet the size of Earth. Such vast numbers of people exert such pressure upon the environment that few hive worlds can sustain life naturally. Many have no free ground surface left because they are entirely built over, to the extent that the planet is no more than a huge urban conglomeration.

Here, we're told that Hive worlds "often" exceed a trillion or more in population, which seems to have changed with the advent of 3rd edition.

Of course, its always been impossible for the Imperium to keep track of such precise data, so we might traet the 3rd edition stuff as "average values" or "estimates", or maybe for "middling" hive worlds, since we know other Hive worlds in the novels have had smaller populations (representing newer/younger ones.) On the other end of the scale, really old Hive worlds like Necromunda probably reach the "trillion plus" mark (not that the 500 billion figure mentioned in the 3rd edition rules is all that far off from "a thousand billion" either...)

It also tends to hint at my potential Guard numbers to still yet be conservative.

Necromunda’s population has never been counted and the chances are that it never will be because the number of people involved is simply too large. There are probably more people on Necromunda than have ever lived in the entire history of Terra up until the end of the twentieth century. An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has been made to count Necromunda’s population in Trazior or any other of the several thousand hives on the planet.

Here, Necromunda's population is estimated (conservatively) to be in the trillions, probably closer to tens of trillions.

The hives are grouped into clusters comprising up to a dozen or so individual hives all linked by a network of overground travel tubes and subterranean passages. These clusters are scattered over the cloud-strewn surface of the planet. From the top of any hive it is possible to see the tips of distant hive clusters projecting from the seas of poison mists like far-flung islands.

Hive clusters are connected together by roads across the wastes and transportation tubes supported on pylons and suspended on cables. With its forest of towering hives interconnected in a network of tubes, the landscape resembles a petrified forest entangled in the web of some enormous spider. On the notorious hive world of Necromunda this is a very powerful symbol.

The hives are the result of thousands of years of constant demolition and rebuilding. Any of the planet's original cities lie underneath the hives, many hundreds of yards below the current surface of the planet's ash wastes.

Each hive takes the form of many huge spires which rise from the base of the city. From a distance, a hive resembles a mass of stalagmites rising from the cloud strewn wastes. Each hive covers an approximately circular area some fifty to a hundred miles in diameter. The tops of the spires can rise to a dozen or more miles above the ground surface, piercing the festering clouds that surround the lower levels of the hive. The spires usually merge into each other at their bases, and smaller spires will sometimes grow out and upwards from just above the base, branching like a cactus and forming multiple spires.

Anatomy of a Hive world. Hives average fifty to a hundred miles in diameter, and may be grrouped in a dozen or more such hives (meaning that the clusters/cities can be hundreds/thousands of miles across - which may be consistent with the "continent sized" hives mentioned in Rogue Trader. The spires rize "dozen or more" miles upwards, and the undergrround portion can go "hundreds" of meters (well yards, but close) beneath the surface. This may be conservaitve, Lt Kage in "Kill Team" mentions that his Hive World went three kilometers up, and three km into the ground as well.

Nonetheless, this just reinforces the idea of how big/durable "cities" in 40K can be, and thus how hard they can be to destroy (requiring alot of firepower, such as Teratons of energy. Imagine how much energy in a fireball hundreds of miles in diameter must be.) Th ebest part is, we know even small ships like frigates need to deliver this kind of firepower easily.

Even the Adeptus Administratum, the administrative branch of the Adeptus Terra, does not know for certain the exact number of worlds within the Imperium. There are approximately a million, but the treacheries of space-travel, the process of time distortion, and the effects of warp storms which can isolate worlds for centuries, make an accurate count impossible.
In addition, the galaxy is a dangerous and warlike place, whore worlds are constantly under threat from alien invaders, internal rebellion, and treachery by governors. Also, new worlds are constantly being added to the Imperium: virgin worlds ripe for colonisation or old human worlds which have been rediscovered after long periods of isolation.

The worlds of the Imperium take many different forms. Some are sparsely populated agricultural worlds whose sole purpose is to provide food for less productive and more highly populated planets. Other worlds are dedicated to specific functions, such as mineral-rich mining planets, barren research stations, military observation planets, and so forth. Most worlds of the Imperium have a reasonably mixed economy and are in most respects self- sufficient. The Adeptus Terra has very little to do with such worlds so long as their governors continue to pay their tithes and impose the Imperial laws which control and contain the emergence of mutant psykers.

The precise number of worlds in the Imperium (due to the stated factors) is not known, which may account ofr the "million/millions" difference. It also reinfores the idea that new worlds are ALWAYS being rediscovered or colonized and added into the Imperium, so the influx of new worlds probably does exceed the loss rate substantially.

And again, we see the mention of "mostly self sufficient" and are reasonably well off economically - sincee this applies to "most worlds", and that the description readily applie sto civilized worlds, we can further conclude (again) that the vast majority of worlds in the Imperium ARE civilized worlds (teh major ones, at least.)