Ciaphas Cain: CAves of Ice - analysis and discussion thread

[Adrian Laguna]

Page 35

"Binary," as the tech-priests refer to their secret language, is one of their most sacred mysteries. Cracking it has long been a priority of the Inquisition, but so far even the most rudimentary syntax has yet to be established.

This is a subscript referring to Cain and a Ministorium official overhearing a group of Adeptus Mechanicus speaking in a "weird twittering language" that set Cain's teeth on edge. Not sure what to make of this precisely (Do they speak in a binary code or computer language, or do they just call it binary because its tech erlated and they dont understand the term?)

I find it likely that in the 41st millennium computers still function largely based upon ones and zeroes. It's probable that the Inquisition is barking up the wrong tree, sort of. The reason they cannot crack binary is because it's not just 1s and 0s, but rather heavily encrypted 1s and 0s. What the Inquisitor writing the footnotes calls "binary" is probably an encryption of some sort based on binary code.

[Lost Soal]

The newest Space Wolf novel takes place on a Promethium mining planet and it is described as being white hot with the hot air in the tunnels being capable of igniting it. Note the temperature is easily tolerable for pdf troops to walk through for several hours.

[white_rabbit]

The newest Space Wolf novel takes place on a Promethium mining planet and it is described as being white hot with the hot air in the tunnels being capable of igniting it. Note the temperature is easily tolerable for pdf troops to walk through for several hours.

Its also Radioactive IIRC.

[Connor MacLeod]

It seems most likely that the Orkish gestalt effect, such as it is, mostly extends to a boost to relative performance. The red goes faster phenomenon is probably the best, most consistently identifiable and quantifiable instance. And that is simply a relativley small (but significant) boost to the speed of such vehicles.

I'd guess that the effect is more akin to enchanting or blessing an object: such is not impossible in 40K (I believe it is quite possible to enhance or imbue objects with warp power, and some technologies do have an intimate working relationship with warp and psyker abilities already.) In fact, a case could be made for other powers in 40K (such as the Imperium) invoking a lesser form of this ability (via prayer or blessings) it need not be restricted solely to orks (just work better for them than for others, and just be less subtle. Out of universe we know such is generally a joke, but in-universe it could make some sense. The orks, of course, use bigh noisy explosions to supplant faith and prayer.)

As for the fossil fuels, I would submit that if they are fossil fuels they are an extremely refined product. Imperial products like promethium are evidently heavily refined, to the point that calling them fossil fuels is probably erroneous.

My comments on fossil fuels were merely illustartting how noisy chemical reactions seem to work as a catalyst for invoking the WAAAAGH! power to boost Ork technology. We know most Imperium craft can pull hundreds or thousands of gees, and I doubt even my estimated energy-density figures (even at their most optimistic) would allow an Ork fighter to maintain sustained performance of any kind like that without psychic boosting.

It's almost certainly a catch-all for a family of products. We are talking about non-Mechanicus sources, which means they may not be party to the full details. Given the sheer range of promethium products it's unlikely that any one single real world analogue would fit.

Or, its likely that some of the products are made from elements separated from promethium when it is found (its unlikely promethium is ever found in a "pure" state, and needs to be broken down before it is turned into fuel. Whatever is separated could be used in other products.)

And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that other novels (like the Ghosts novels) have referenced other fuels (like Gasoline, Diesel, etc.) independently of promethium.

PS: Connor, I'm suprised you missed the joke about Soylens Veridens (sp?).

I caught the Soylent Green joke (I might still have commentary in it elsehwere, because Cain references it and Sulla does as well, but I just haven't added it yet.) On the other hand, it may not be totally a joke: other novels (which I will cover at some later date) do hint that human flesh is recycled as usuable food, at least in certain hive cities (or at least used to be. Its just another reason I consider Hive Worlds to be a bad place to live...)

[Connor MacLeod]

The newest Space Wolf novel takes place on a Promethium mining planet and it is described as being white hot with the hot air in the tunnels being capable of igniting it. Note the temperature is easily tolerable for pdf troops to walk through for several hours.

If you can quote it that might be helpful, otherwise I can't really say if it might contribute anything or not. (It still may not, since body armour can vary from full body hardshell with full face helmets to something light and agile like the Ghosts wear.)

[Lonestar]

I caught the Soylent Green joke (I might still have commentary in it elsehwere, because Cain references it and Sulla does as well, but I just haven't added it yet.) On the other hand, it may not be totally a joke: other novels (which I will cover at some later date) do hint that human flesh is recycled as usuable food, at least in certain hive cities (or at least used to be. Its just another reason I consider Hive Worlds to be a bad place to live...)

In Grey Hunter a hiver mentions that bodies are "recycled", which Ragnar finds very disgusting. Whether they are recycled as food or as a fertilizer... (shrugs*

[18-Till-I-Die]

In the Guant novel, His Last Command, it is stated that during the long war on Fortis Binary they ran out of food and started canibalizing corpses to survive.

Years later some of the people have become 'addicted' to the taste of human flesh and decided to feed it to others by taking bodies off the battlefield and using them as 'foodstuffs'.

This, quite naturally, led to a massive outbreak of disease and infection. Said outbreak may or may not have to do with, or have been made worse by, (spoilers) the huge Chaos portals that the planet was perfuse with (spoilers).

[Lost Soal]

The newest Space Wolf novel takes place on a Promethium mining planet and it is described as being white hot with the hot air in the tunnels being capable of igniting it. Note the temperature is easily tolerable for pdf troops to walk through for several hours.

If you can quote it that might be helpful, otherwise I can't really say if it might contribute anything or not. (It still may not, since body armour can vary from full body hardshell with full face helmets to something light and agile like the Ghosts wear.)

I was about to say sorry, its in another city, but remembered its actually the one Wolf novel I've bought up her, so here we go.
Regarding the heat.

All around him, promethium flowed through cooled pipes to keep it from exploding in the hot air of Hyades
...
Underground Ragnar had hoped the temperature would fall, but the servents of the Machine God had made minimal use of fans and vents. Keeping the oxygen content of the complex low probably made the Prometium safer, Ragnar thought.

Pdf Equipment

The members of Markhams team were from Hyades, wearing Carapace Armour and rebreathers.[\quote]
Their very well armed and armoured, but as far as I was aware, Carapace armour doesn't have cooling units.
Dispite the hinted low Oxygen, Ragnar is still able to ignite the Promethium.

[Connor MacLeod]

I was about to say sorry, its in another city, but remembered its actually the one Wolf novel I've bought up her, so here we go.
Regarding the heat.

All around him, promethium flowed through cooled pipes to keep it from exploding in the hot air of Hyades

Well this alone doesn't really tell us much. I suppose we might approximate compared to gasoline or something, but as I already said Promethium seems to be somewhat different compared to that. We'd need
more data before we could make any conclusions based on that.

If you're curious, googling the ignition temperatures of gasoline turned up this link, while googling the same for diesel turned up this link

Gasoline has an ignition temp of around 530-550 K, and Diesel has around 480-530 K (slightly lower). For comparison the average human body temp is around 310 K and room temp is around 300K. This might not mean anything for Promethium though.

BTW what did you mean by the planet being "white hot" before?

...
Underground Ragnar had hoped the temperature would fall, but the servents of the Machine God had made minimal use of fans and vents. Keeping the oxygen content of the complex low probably made the Prometium safer, Ragnar thought.

Fans and vents for cooling? That might suggest some sort of limits on the temperature (I'm not up on air conditioning or cooling systems though, I'd have to look into that before concluding anything.)

Pdf Equipment

The members of Markhams team were from Hyades, wearing Carapace Armour and rebreathers.

Their very well armed and armoured, but as far as I was aware, Carapace armour doesn't have cooling units.
Dispite the hinted low Oxygen, Ragnar is still able to ignite the Promethium.

But they are wearing rebreathers which does tend to suggest they might be covered (well they're wearing carpace too, which suggests its fairly full-bodyh) Alternately, if the temperatures are not exceedingly high, they might be wearing some sort of reflective/insulating element under the carapace (I know that in the Cain Novels Cain wears carapace under his uiform and greatcoat, and flak can be worn over/under other outfits too..)

I think beyond a certain point (say, inside a volcano) you need fairly extensive protection - fully enclosed like stormtrooper armor - to survive.) Again, I'd have to check.

I suppose that it is also possible the properties of Carapace might allow it to absorb and reradiate heat well (acting as insulation itself) again, I'd have to check. On the other hand its possible that carapace is designed to absorb heat really well, which might mean it retains it (so it might cook the guy on the inside or burn them if they don't have good insulation or a cooling unit of some kind.)

[Connor MacLeod]

regarding the whole cannabalism thing, I was aware of the Gaunt one (even though I havne't formally read the novel yet), so I am aware that the cannibalism thing isn't stnadardized or uniform. I'm also aware that depending on the novel you read, food supplies available (to the civilians, to the Guard, or to other segments of the Imperium as a whole) can vary dramatically depending on a number of factors. (THe food supplies of the Ghosts differ from the troops in Fifteen hours, for example.) This is precisely why I qualified my statement (Even if the food i Hive cities were great, there are a shitload of other reasons to make them terrible places to live, for the most part. The food situation, at least in the impoverished areas, only would seem to make some sense.)

Its also quite possible timeframe plays a role here - in the past (millenia ago) Exterminatus were specialized vent only carried out by Space Marines and was a top secret activity (There are alot of differences that may affect thingts.) Its possible the stnadard of living on Hive Worlds has changed since then.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, this update has been long delayed due to some computer problems, but here goes:

Page 61

- Again the Valhallans have a tactical hololith, which feeds in data provided by the Pure of Heart in orbit (The hololith, of course, is malfunctioning and provides erratic imagery, though noone has hit it yet.) It shows roughyl a three dimensional image relaying the Valhallan positions as well as the Ork advance in great detail.

Page 62

- at this point the Ork GArgant is 200 kilometers to the west. upon request by Cain, the Pure of Heart relays that it has a "high thermal signature, which indicates combustion process of some kind." It has a metallic shell that is mainly ferric in composition. and is eighty metres tall.

Page 73

- Jurgen's melta is stated as being capable of vaporizing an ambull along with a "fair sized chunk of the wall behind it." and again notes that the weapon was designed for punching through tank armor, although it is quite effective against powerful targets (or engaging groups of enemies ast short range, including Orks.)

I don't recall offhand any specific information about how massive ambulls are, but I'd guess they're probably larger than orks or humans by several times (say maybe half a ton to a ton) in which case vaporisation would require close to several gigajoules of energy, plus whatever portion of the wall is vaporised (which could double or triple the output, since the melta is probably going to vaporise at least a similar volume in ice as the creature itself.)

This would also be roughly consistent with Necronlord's meltagun calcs as per below (and we know from other sources that Meltaguns, like lasguns, have variable settings, so the difference in power could be attributable to that.)

Page 74 -75

- an auspex, wielded by an Adeptus Mechanicus assistant to Cain and his group, is capable of detecting "interesting striations" in the ice layers (later identified as claw marks) hinting at active detection measures (probably something like radar.)

Page 75

- Again mention that the Valhallans use five man "fire teams" (two per squad.)

Page 75

- Cain estimates that at this point they are 1-2 kilometers below the surface. A subscript by Amberley notes that they were almost 3 kilometers belowground at this point.

Page 81

His voice was drowned out by the abrupt hiss of the melta as Jurgen fired into the wall, instantly flashing a dozen cubic meters of ice into steam, which condensed almost instantly in the subzero temperatures, filling the narrow passageway with mist.

The infamous "meltagun calcs" as originally performed by Necronlord. Necronlord's original calcs are somewhat consevative (inefficiencies, latent heat of fusion, specific heat, etc all add some energy to the calc, but its still accurate to within an order of magnitude.) It can safely be said that a meltagun can achieve double-digit gigajoule outputs easily (but this is probably close to the maximum for the weapon - multimeltas reach triple digit GJ in Storm of Iron and are are definitely more powerful.)

It should also be noted that some people have equated the output of 20-30 gigajoules of enerrgy as resulting in a bomb-like blast. This is not neccesarily true - the pressure wave (if any) will depend heavily on the duration of the vaporisation as well as how "concentrated' it is (bombs develop high pressures due to the fact they generate large amounts of gasses in very short timeframes and in very small volumes.) Given the "area effect" nature of a meltagun, and the "sustained" nature of the beam, small volumes and rapid timeframes are unlikely. Furthermore, the described operation of a melta (at least some of them anyhow) tend to suggest that the "heating" of the ice would be much more uniform than ti would be if, say, a lasgun was melting it (the latter would have to heat a very small area and rely on work heating to vaporize the rest of it, which tends to lead to more "explosive" effects - a meltagun does not need to rely on work heating nearly as much to achieve the same results.)

The energy output is, however, quite substantial, and could pose a risk to exposed flesh, especially in confined spaces. In this case, though, there are some possibly mitigating circumstances. For example, due to the mentioned "sub zero temperatures", that some of the people were up to 100 meters away along the tunnels (either way), time was allowed for others to get clear, that a third opening was created a bit later, and that all the Valhallans were heavily bundled up in flak armor, greatcoats, and winter gear, brief exposures to the high temperature steam would unlikely be a significant problem (And given the warning, they can take further protective measures such as, turning away, covering their faces, etc.)

Another possibility is that 40K humans are not quite like us (ie modern humans) - there is circumstantial evidence that they are taller/heavier, ,stronger, and faster as a rule, so they could also have greater durability as well (the fact that the Valhallans are likely to be heavily bundled due to the enviroment is a bigger saving grace here.)

Page 91

- one of the Imperial Guardsman with cain manages to take down an Ambull with full auto lasgun fire. The result leaves the body "riddled with the cauterised craters of las bolt impacts" and that identification was impossible (Cain wondered if it was the same one he'd wounded before) because there wasn't enough left intact to tell (although the head was untouched.) Clearly, he didnt totally vaporize or incinerate the creature, but he did severely burn it. It is also worth noting that it is not mentioned that he needs to replace his clip, so he may not have totally used up his ammo.

Unfortunately, its very difficult to accurately measure the amount of damage done. Cauterising is mentioned, but no exact volumes of damage are implied. If we assume the aforementioned "500-1000 kilo" mass for the Ambull, and ssume about half the body was burned (cauterised), and that all of a 40 shot clip was used up, you might get 1-3 megajoules per shot (roughly.) All in all, its more useful as a supplementary bit of evidence than direct, calculable evidence.

Page 91

- the aforementioned trooper is also wounded by the ambull's claws, although not severely (through coat and flak armour as well.) The claws I believe are fairly sharp, and the Ambull is clearly quite strong. Though the momentum did not look to be enough to send the Guardsman flying or knock him unconsious, so the amount of force required couldn't be tremendously high, either. Ambulls I think can dig through stone, so that may imply that the "pressure" the claws generate on the flak could be quite high.

Page 93

According to the Magus Biologos they [ambulls] can see heat rather than light. Rather an odd concept, I have to say, ,but having looked through a tau blacklight system recently I can attest from personal experience that such a phenomenon can be achieved by technosorcery, so I suppose its not beyond the bounds of possibility that it might also occur in nature.

This is in regards to the ambull's ability to see in the dark (the means by which made no sense to Cain, he claims.) From what I understand some people take this to mean that Cain (and by extension the Imperial Guard as a whole) do not understand or utlilize infrared or night-vision systems. However, we know of ample (earlier) cases that demonstrate this false (such as the Ghosts novels.)

We also know from page 62 that Cain IS familiar with thermal scanners (and another incident with Sentinels in Triator's Hand reinforces this, IIRC.) so again the idea that Cain or the Guard have no idea about them is patently false.

[Teleros]

but having looked through a tau blacklight system recently I can attest from personal experience that such a phenomenon can be achieved by technosorcery, so I suppose its not beyond the bounds of possibility that it might also occur in nature.

This is in regards to the ambull's ability to see in the dark (the means by which made no sense to Cain, he claims.) From what I understand some people take this to mean that Cain (and by extension the Imperial Guard as a whole) do not understand or utlilize infrared or night-vision systems. However, we know of ample (earlier) cases that demonstrate this false (such as the Ghosts novels.)

Could you use it to mean something like: "if tau technosorcery can do it (like our own blessed auspices etc), then I suppose it might occur in nature too"...? Just pop in a hidden premise like that and it'd work with the Gaunt's Ghosts info, plus the fact that Cain's regiment is a fairly well equipped one.

[Black Admiral]

It wasn't Cain making that observation about the ambulls' ability to see heat, it was Amberley - who may simply be unfamiliar with Guard-issue thermal vision equipment.

[Lost Soal]

BTW what did you mean by the planet being "white hot" before?

There are a number of references in the book to Promethium being white hot.

Pg 34

Promethium, the white hot fuel used in Imperial flame weapons, was found naturally in only a few places, including Hyades.

I think there may be more quotes but i means going through the whole book as I can't remember where they might be.

[Connor MacLeod]

BTW what did you mean by the planet being "white hot" before?

There are a number of references in the book to Promethium being white hot.

Pg 34

Promethium, the white hot fuel used in Imperial flame weapons, was found naturally in only a few places, including Hyades.

I think there may be more quotes but i means going through the whole book as I can't remember where they might be.

Well temperature and color depends heavily on the substancec involved. Some substances (like lead) I believe. But even if it doesnt, I'm pretty sure Promethium would ignite before glowign white hot (unless its supposed to turn other materials white hot. I'm still not sure about the context.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Page 96 - another Guardsman is severely wounded (stomach wound) by the claws of an ambull.

Page 97

She squeezed the trigger methodically, placing single shots on the head of the nearest ambull with commendable accuracy. aiming for the eyes and maw. A las bolt burst against the roof of the thing's mouth, blowing a large chunk of brain matter backwards which clung to the frozen wall, solidifying like an obsecne outgrrowth as the creature toppled backwards.

- The lasgun burst (single shot) blasts through the Ambull's mouth and out the back, exploding the contents out the back. Hole size isn't known, nor is whether there is any cauterization (probable, though) or the size of an Ambull's head. Assuming ork size, the entire head could mass between 10-20 kg (Ghostmaker specifies that Ork skulls are 2x bigger, and some Orks are up to 400 kilos in weight. Generally, the head's mass is assumed to be 5-8% of the total body mass.)

Page 98 - Cain wonders if he shouldn't have told Jurgen to acquire something safer than the melta, such as a hellgun or flamer. This seems to suggest that the valhallan general stores (like we saw in "For the Emperor" have hellguns available. Perhaps these were leftover or recovered from the losses among their storm trooper regiments? (Then again, Jurgen is supposed to have an unusual scrounging ability, so this may merely mean that. A normal human brain (IIRC) masses around 1.3-1.5 kilos. Thus brain mass can be considered 1/3 to 1/4 the overall body mass. (That could mean an Ambull brain masses around 2.5-3 kilos at least, possibly as much as ten kilos.) Assuming cauterization takes place, and ignoring vaporisation, cauterisation would require at least 670-800 kilojoules per shot, assuming a 2.5-3 kg brain. At 10 kg, the energy is ~2.7 megajoules.

It shoudl be noted that like the prior calc I did on the ambull, this is not a precise calc, and should not be presented as such. (I've noticed that certain parties are prone to presenting some of my calcs are firm calcs, despite the fact I indicate that in some cases there are assumptions involved.)

Page 106

Where we are now is on a continental shelf, which is why we've penetrated as far as the bedrock. The ice goes down for tens of kilometres just out form the mountain range, which would have been an island chain in those days. Or perhaps this was a coastal plain which flooded as the oceans forze and increased in volume.

- Depth of the ice (at least in the continental shelf) is tens of kilometres deep. This is still fairly close to the refinery. Worth noting for a calc to be performed later.

Page 107 - Mention of an Imperial Guard medicae sanctorium (insane asylum) in the Sigma Pavonis system, specializing in troopers suffering from mental illness and combat fatigue. Less chronic cases are sent for assessment and rehabilitation, while severe ones receive long term care (up to many years.) the system also serves as a manufactory for combat servitors (many of which end up with Inquisitors. The connection is implied to be more than coincidental, of course.)

Page 109 - Cain mentions seeing Necrons walking throug hellgun fire as if it were a "refreshing spring rain." Necrons can easily withstand unconcentrated, individual hellgun shots without being damaged.

Page 112 - According to Cain, the Necrons weapons and equipment are so powerful they make the "most sophisticated toys of the Adeptus Mechanicus look like sharpened sticks."

Page 118 - Cain is overheard reciting one of the Catechisms of Command under his breath, which involves the phrase "Fear is the mind killer". Clearly the Commiserat teaches Bene Gesserit techniques to its members

Page 120 - Cain thinks an Ork could survive a fall of several hundred meters, even dropped on its head.

PAge 124 - Valhallans carry goggles (and scarves) as part of their standard (winter gear) kit (which is relevant insofar as protection from the aforementioned massive meltagun blast were concerned.)

[Bob the Gunslinger]

The newest Space Wolf novel ....

Is it any good?


The third Cain novel should yield some pretty impressive calcs too, including troop deployment speed and numbers. They're zipping all over a planet in that one.

[Lost Soal]

The newest Space Wolf novel ....

Is it any good?

Its got a few problems, like a twist you can see coming a mile away and Ragnar for some reason seems to be in charge of the Wolfblade on the planet, but overall it is a good story and sets up a much larger story arc for future books. You should certainly read it.

[Lonestar]

Its got a few problems, like a twist you can see coming a mile away and Ragnar for some reason seems to be in charge of the Wolfblade on the planet, but overall it is a good story and sets up a much larger story arc for future books. You should certainly read it.

Pff, of course he should be in charge, he's Bad ass. How many people rip the throats out of an Imperial assassain with his teeth? (from the previous book)

[Lost Soal]

Its got a few problems, like a twist you can see coming a mile away and Ragnar for some reason seems to be in charge of the Wolfblade on the planet, but overall it is a good story and sets up a much larger story arc for future books. You should certainly read it.

Pff, of course he should be in charge, he's Bad ass. How many people rip the throats out of an Imperial assassain with his teeth? (from the previous book)

What can you expect from someone who think's their Chapter name is a literal description of its warriors.
He's also essentially still a Blood Claw and should be taking orders from the others, not giving them. Still, at least he does listen when given advise.
My biggest gripe really is actually something the authors did with Hagr which goes against their own description of him, and was a badly written way of showing how uber Ragnar is. Anyone who's read it will probably know which part I'm on about.
And if this is to go any further I suggest doing it in its own thread, since this is way off topic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Page 132

- Valhallan comm beads have a minimum transmission range of 300 metres (At least in winter/blizzard conditions.)

Page 134

- Cain's laspistol is capable of blowing a hole through the torso of an Ork, but it is not a fatal wound (nor does it bleed. Whether the healing factor or cauterization caused this, I cannot say.)

Page 134

The unmistakable hiss of the melta opening up behind me made me turn, just in time to see my aid cut down a small group of the creatures that had evidently been following the first with a single ravening blast of thermal energy.

- Melta takes down an "small group" assuming 2 orks (500 kg?) this probably takes around a gigajoule (assuming vaporisation, described in too many sourcees to count)

Page 139

In less than a second, he [an ork struck by a gauss weapon] seemed to dissolve; skin, muscle, and skeleton whipping away to vapour, leaving only the echo of a howl of inhuman agony to mark his passing.

- As I discuss later, the Gauss weapons do not seem to be thermal at all, despite the statement of "vapour." Various sources (Inquisitor sourecbook, the Necrons codex) tend to describe them more as some sort of "molecular" or "atomic" disruptor device (the Codex implies magnetic field/force field disruption.) of some kind, with little to no thermal results.

Out of purely academic interest, completely vaporising (or more accurately, ,cremating) an ork (Assuming 200 kilos, although it could possibly be twice that) would require at least 500-600 megajoules of energy. Odds are its probably much more (several gigajoules.) Note however that cremation would leave ashes behind as well as water vapour, and he wouldn't "dissolve".

Page 139

- Gauss beams appear to be sweeping/raking/cutting weapons, however in this mode they do not seem to cause thermal effects to the surroundings, despite destroying four orks in close succession. If it were thermal, (as the other quotes suggest) the energy beam would be vaporising massive quantities of snow (as much as a melta, in all probability) as well as the orks.


Page 140

- Necrons shrug off sustained fire from ork bolter rounds (although orks aren't very accurate to beign with.) One lucky hit, though, destroyed the powerpack of a Necron, detonating it, destroying both weapon and Necron (but leaving the others untouched.) Ork axes (and muscles) can cut through their bodies though (at least to decapitate)


Page 141

The ork's triumph was short lived, however, as the conerted beams of the two surviving necrons ripped it to vapour in a heartbeat

- Again necron beams seem to vaporise an ork in short order (fraction of a second, actually), but probably not purely thermal damage.

Page 147

- one of the Valhallans is hit by an ork bolter round, which leavs a "bloody crater" exploded in his chest. It also is described as being "instantly fatal, smashing through the flak armour beneath his greatcoat to detonate inside his ribcage." The fact that the Ork bolter round penetrates flak armour (unsurprising. Its quite likely that ork bolters are on the same magnitude of raw momentum/pressure as Space marine bolters.)

Page 147

The heavy weapon hissed once more, flashing the intervening curtain of snow into vapour, and reducing the ork leader and the two standing next to him to a rank pile of gently steaming offal. The sole survivor turned, blinking in what looked like stunned stupefaction, its left arm hanging limp and charred from flash burns, then turned and bolted

3 orks, probably vaporised. Assuming 200 kg for the escorts (and 300 kg for the leader, thats at least several gigajoules easily (minimum). If we more conservatively assume boiling rather than full vaporisation, its only 52 megajoules. I'm leaning towards full vaporisation (and probably under-rating the mass involved.) This calc probably puts the meltagun's output at very close to what the "ice vaporisation" calcs before indicate.


Page 150

Then I nodded to my aide, stepped back, and he pulled the trigger. Lunt's body boiled into vapour in amatter of seconds, helped by the volatile promethium left in the flamer tanks, and I led the others in a few ritual words commending his soul to the Emperor.

Melta cremates a body in a matter of seconds (hundreds of megajoules to a gigajoule.) Note that Jurgen would clearly not want to go "all out" in this case, because cremating a body like that (or even vaporising it) will release a massive amount of thermal energy as well as a pressure wave (not neccesarily lethal, though - depending on circumstances.)

However, we also dont know how the promethium tanks contributed to this either, so its hard to gauge (how much fuel was in them, etc. We know from the Ghosts novels that flamers can cremate individuals as well.)

Page 158

- comm beads can subvocalise. And the shrapnel from several ork grenades cannot be completely stopped by Imperial Flak armour (at least that worn by Valhallans.) Note, of course, ork Grenades are probably larger and more powerful than modern grenades, so this probably (By itself) does not neccesarily mean much.

Page 159

- Lasguns can be fired on full auto one-handed, indicating minimal recoil. (at least in this instance: Necropolis had a Tanith trooper get his hand blown off and he couldn't use a lasgun one-handed. Of course, Tanith rifles seem to have LOTS of recoil.)

Page 159

- a volley of bolter shells tears an IG trooper apart.

Page 159

- a shot from a laspistol and a lasgun blow away most of an ork's head. Assuming cauterisation occurs (likely, no blood mentioned) and that an Ork head masses around 10-15 kilos ("Ghostmaker" indicates that ork heads are about twice the size of a human's, and this is conservative: head mass generally represents 7-8% of total body mass, and orks can mass up to 400 kilos, again according to Ghostmaker.) going with the conservative "boiling point" estimate, we're probably talking at least 2.7-3 megajoules, minimum, for the combined shot.

Assuming a lasgun is 3-4x more powerful than a lasgun,a nd that they are on comparable settings, a laspistol works out to at least 600-700 kilojoules, and the lasgun works out to about 2-2.5 Megajoules per shot.

Page 159

- lasguns can be used to deliver suppressive fire.

Page 166

- Necron cavern tomb. Cain estimates there are hundreds of thousands in that one chamber "at the very least"

Page 166-167

Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.

Of course the planet would be rendered uninhabitable for generations, but no one in their right mind would be willing to set foot here once the necron presence was known in any case, so the question was moot.

Ah, the most (in my opinion) precise and impressive example for 40K starship firepower. Many calcs to follow:

Off the bat, some variables to address: A "flotilla" of battleships in Battle Fleet gothic is defined as a squadron. By BFG, this means 2 or 3 Battleships. In other words, a couple of lance volleys from a couple of battleships will wipe out a continent and render a planet uninhabitable. But the latter part is purely a secondary effect!

Anyhow, assuming at least 1e9 megatons (low end.), 3 battleships, and that a "couple" of salvos means 2 - the firepower works out to roughly 167 teratons per salvo.

impressive, yes, but more than likely a drastic underestimate. For one thing, later on Cain mentions "sterilizing" the planet, which implies drastically gerater firepower (tens of billions of megatons.) For another, consider just how deeply buried under the planet the necron tomb is, at LEAST 3 km, possibly tens of km deep. That's a huge volume to attack. Cratering a continent-sized target would require tens of billions of megatons. Melting or vaporising that much ice would be even MORE insane (and more likely - lances are sustained beam weapons and melting/vaporising is what they do.) Assuming a 3000 km diameter "continent, 10 km depth, and complete melting would equate nearly 10 billion megatons of energy.

Assuming 10 billion (20 billion sterilization? double that) megatons, 2 battleships, and 2 salvos - 2.5 billion megatons per salvo. REalistically this is probably more accurate, short term extinction, much less sterilization (which would be needed to completely eradicate the Necrons taint.) AT the very minimum, one billion megatons should be expected per salvo (pulierizing a large crater into the continent ought to require at least 4-5 billion megatons, easily.)

In any case, the statement makes it clear the planet is STILL Habitable, at least in the long term. This means it didnt lose its biosphere, atmosphere, etc, suggesting that the energy is definitely under e11-e12 megatons (And hence battleship firepower is no more than 250 billion megatons.)

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Is that a lot?








Seriously, though, how would that compare to, say, an ISD? I don't mean in a versus sense. It's just that we have so many discussions here about what an ISD can do, BDZs, etc., that it would make the term "billions of megatons" easier to picture.

[18-Till-I-Die]

That's 250 petatons for a battleship's LANCES.

I dont know if this includes the broadside. Remamber most battleships have only a few lances in their dorsal turrets (according to the models) and relatively few cruisers do, most battleship's firepower is based around their broadsides, bomber squadrons and torpedoes.

Interestingly, a Gothic class cruiser mounts numerous Lance turrets.

[Dominus]

That's 250 petatons for a battleship's LANCES.

Ouch. With these calculations, I think we can finally put the issue of absolute Imperial superiority (in terms of raw firepower) over, say, the Covenant to rest the next time it is brought up. Wait until I show this to my friend, the shameless "Covenant uber alles" Halo fanboy. I can picture the mental contortions already...

I dont know if this includes the broadside. Remamber most battleships have only a few lances in their dorsal turrets (according to the models) and relatively few cruisers do, most battleship's firepower is based around their broadsides, bomber squadrons and torpedoes.

The Battlefleet Gothic rulebook stats reflect this as well. It's true enough for the Emperor (though I don't believe the Emperor even has any lances; it's really more of a carrier than a battleship anyway) and Oberon class battleships, and perhaps the Retribution as well, but the Apocalypse class is the exception to that rule -- armed only with lances (admittedly the most powerful lances in all of BFG -- sans the Planet Killer -- based purely on the stats), a nova cannon, and four 'regular' dorsal turrets. However, the lances on the Desolator-class are implied to be a more effective overall weapons platform, as they're nearly as powerful as the ones mounted on the Apocalypse while their vastly increased range lets them 'pick off' targets at distances that would apparently burn out the capacitors on the Apocalypse class. A single Desolator-class battleship, the Eternity of Pain, is noted to have accounted for more than seven confirmed battleship kills over the centuries largely thanks to these long-ranged lances, according to the rulebook.

Interestingly, a Gothic class cruiser mounts numerous Lance turrets.

And are actually considered to be sub-par cruiser designs by most fleet commanders, I believe; unless paired up with another cruiser or a squadron of escorts. Apparently, their lance batteries can't damage the enemy fast enough in capital ship duels before suffering severe damage themselves.

[Imperial Overlord]

And are actually considered to be sub-par cruiser designs by most fleet commanders, I believe; unless paired up with another cruiser or a squadron of escorts. Apparently, their lance batteries can't damage the enemy fast enough in capital ship duels before suffering severe damage themselves.

I'm rather partial to lances but you can't generate the number of damaging hits against another craft as you can with an equivalent number of weapon batteries and advantageous positioning. That being said there are a couple of areas where they really shine: heavily armoured targets and when you don't have such advantageous positioning (long range, gas clouds, interference, broadside exchange). Where they are really murderous is when you can pair them up with a good number of weapons batteries. The nightmarish thing about the Apocalypse is that if you're willing to take the overload damage, you can use the lance arsenal at long range and absolutely murder some poor bastard.