Ciaphas Cain: For the Emperor - technical analysis thread

[Adrian Laguna]

Page 286:

These were plasma weapons we were facing, ,and even the heavy body armour we were wearing would be all but useless against it

- Cain believes that the carapace armor he and his troops are wearing would be completely ineffective against Tau pulse/plasma weaponry. Given before that he believed it could stop a las-bolt (and later on, implying it could even stop a hellgun bolt we again see evidence that the tau weaponry is more powerful than Imperium las weaponry.

Someone is misusing the phrase "all but". It means that you can describe that particular thing as everything but that one adjective, it's the one thing it is most certainly not. Consider the example "he is all but dead", am I describing a dead man? Of course not, then the phrase "all but" would be completely redundant, since simply removing it not only would preserve the meaning, but make the writing flow better. "He is all but dead" implies someone who's been fucked-up to an immense degree, but most certainly not dead.

Now, the question here is whether the author is misusing the phrase "all but" or if he means "most nearly useless but not quite" and Connor is the one misinterpreting. The difference here is small though. A hit to the chest will put a Guardsman out of action, the question really is whether the hit will outright kill him or if the armour provides some survivability.

Page 296

We were making better time now though, the tau appearing to have some way of seeing in the dark. They certainly had no visible luminators, so I assumed the lenses on the front of their helmets enabled them to see in some way I couldn't quite comprehend.

The pathfinders evidently carry the tau "blacksun filters" as parrt of their standard gear. i cannot find anything to define what comprises said filters, although they may be infrared (or otherwise.)

It may seem like Cain's statements here indicate he is not familiar with infrared or other types of possible detection technology, but this is questionable, ,given amberley's auspex, the fact he reasoned out the p urpose of the ocular eyepieces, and the fact we know from the Wargear book and the 3rd edition codex that infrared goggles and sights are considered part and parcel of Guard equipment.

The simplest interpretation is that Cain simply doesn't know how IR or light amplification equipment works, whether Imperial or Xenos.

[Elheru Aran]

Page 293 - the "hard-shelled" and visored helmeneted figures are described as "pathfinders" - the Tau equivalent of Imperial Guard storm-troopers (Recon specialists and forward observers.)

Not quite correct. Pathfinders are scouts. Stormtroopers are elite heavy soldiers. The pathfinders are regarded as elite soldiers among the Tau due to the risks they take in scouting out enemy positions and being in enemy-occupied territory though, as well as using specialist weapons such as rail-rifles.

[Connor MacLeod]

Someone is misusing the phrase "all but". It means that you can describe that particular thing as everything but that one adjective, it's the one thing it is most certainly not. Consider the example "he is all but dead", am I describing a dead man? Of course not, then the phrase "all but" would be completely redundant, since simply removing it not only would preserve the meaning, but make the writing flow better. "He is all but dead" implies someone who's been fucked-up to an immense degree, but most certainly not dead.

Now, the question here is whether the author is misusing the phrase "all but" or if he means "most nearly useless but not quite" and Connor is the one misinterpreting. The difference here is small though. A hit to the chest will put a Guardsman out of action, the question really is whether the hit will outright kill him or if the armour provides some survivability.

The indication seems to be that the plasma guns would have minimal if any effect on carapace armor, which if not literally "completely ineffective", it is almost completely ineffective, so the difference in interpretation is minor at best.

Moreover, its possible its not just an issue of raw power. Cain's statements would imply that plasma weapons affect armor differently than las weapons might (understandable, since they are two different phenomena) and we have already observed in the same novel that carapace is not totally effective at stopping bolter rounds, either (it CAN, as we observe later with Jurgen, but its not wholly effective.)

In any case, its still another indication that the tau plasma weaponry was much more powerful than hellguns or lasguns (and tau plasma weapons are less powerful than Imperial equivalents, according to the TAu codex.)

At the BEST, you could maybe interpret it might stop the first shot, but the second if not the third shot would almost certainly fuck up the armor (as noted.) and tau plasma weapons are almost certainly capable of rapid fire the way lasguns are. Which still means that Carapace will be virtually useless against the tau plasma weapons.

The simplest interpretation is that Cain simply doesn't know how IR or light amplification equipment works, whether Imperial or Xenos.

Well yes, he doesn't neccesarily understand the intricate details behind detection methods, nor would be neccesarily be able to figure out from the information he's given what they DO use, but my point was that the quote does not indicate that he is ingorant of the fact such devices exist.

The reason I felt a need to point this out is because it has been implied tha thte IG are unfamiliar with devices like infrared scanners and such (i believe the cain novels were specifically mentioned, too.) I was simply illustrating that, from this quote at least, it does not follow.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sorry about hte delay, I took a break from the forums ofr the holidays. I want to finish this one up before new years though. Then I start Caves of Ice.

page 317 - the tau were unfamiliar with the infiltrator nature of the Genestealers.

Page 321 - Tau pathfinder armor can be penetrated by lasgun/autogun fire ("multiple impacts")

Pages 323

I recognised the tactif from the cleansing of Keffia, and Jurgen evidently, did too, as he raised the melta before
fallign back. The blast of superheated air roared against my face, ,vaporising the oncoming stealer and chewing
a chunk out of the front few ranks.

- A meltagun can "vaporise" a whole genestealer (a purestrain I believe), and implying similar for the "first few ranks" (at least two others, possibly more.) If we know the mass of a genestealer, we can probably estimate its output. (I'd assume more than a regular person, so probably several hundred kg is possible, suggesting hundreds of MJ worth of energy at least, possibly low gj.)



Pages 323-324

The firing continued, with las-bolts and bullets chewing up the masonry around us, and I felt a sudden blow against my chest. I glanced down; a las-bolt had impacted against the borrowed
armour beneath my greatcoat, and I blessed the foresight that had impelled me to requisition it.

- Lasbolt stopped by carapace armor.

Page 324

The explosive bolts detonated inside their chitinous shells, blowing their thoraxes to bloody mist.

- Effect of bolt pistol rounds on genestealers.


Page 324 - Cain mentions having witnessed Purestrain Genestealers effortlessly tear open Terminator armour.

Page 324 subscript mentions that Cain was part of an "Imperial Guard unit" detailed to mop up onboard a Space Hulk, evidently assisting (and working from) a Space Marine battlebarge for an unknown period of time. This may imply that some Guard regiments do serve with or are attached to Space Marine forces, at least on a temperoary basis (to assist in their activities, anyhow.)

Page 331-332

He raised the hellgun, aiming it at my chest. Incredibly, he still didn't seem to realise that I'd concealed armour there, or he'd have gone for a head shot I'm sure

- Cain is confident that a hellgun shot (or possibly a burst) at close range would not penetrate his carapace armor.

Page 332

"Jurgen, kill him," I said. The expression on Kelp's face was almost comical for the half-second or so that he still had one, then he exploded into a small pile of gently steaming offal.

- Doesn't precisely say "vaporize" here, but the fact that Kelp is "steaming" and he "explodes" implies at least partial vaporization. We may also infer Jurgen logically used a lower setting here (mentioned in First and Only, I believe) because of Cain's proximity to Kelp, so did not employ full power (and hence, not full vaporization.) The output would still be many tens of megajoules at least, as the water content in kelp's body is raised to the boiling point. It also disregards the fact Kelp was, I believe, still wearing carapace armor (not that it would neccesarily provide a HUIGE amount of protection, but that could add a few more tens of megajoules potentially, depending on how the effects work.)

Bear in mind this also occurs over about half a second or less, so that can at least double or triple the figure too.

Page 333 - mention of the dissipation of Kelp's "molecules", implying he might have been at least prtially vaporized, as postulated above.

Page 337 - Carapace armor scored with "las-bolt impacts"

Page 338

Abruptly, Trekeck took a bolt to the chest, the explosive tip bursting through her rib-cage, spattering the wall next to her with viscera.

- While carapace armor seems to be able to withstand prolonged lasgun fire (and at least limited Hellgun fire), a bolter round (type unknown, but its probably not a heavy bolter due to the effect)penetrates the carapace armor before detonating. This may imply that the thermal properties of carapace armor are much better than its kinetic, though.

The inquisitor turned to answer me, but before she could say anything, a las-bolt burst against the side of her head.

"Amberley!" I yelled, but to my astonishment she was suddenly gone, vanishing without a trace apartt from the sudden thunderclap of displaced air rushing in to fill the sudden vacuum in the space which she'd occupied.

- Displacer devices in operation. Curiously, this particular device also seems to incorporate a shielding function as well as the teleportation feature, ,as the las bolt actually impacts (ie "bursts" implies an interaction of some kind with the target, and given that Amberley's head is intact, it wasn't her body that go tstruck) before the device activiates (implying a reactive function, at leat for this device.) This seems to differ from the in-game description of such objects (although that may be purely game mechanics.)


Page 339 - Jurgen's melta creates a hole in a masonry wall tall enough for a person to walk through, a meter wide and the wall "barely the width of" Cain's forearm. "wide as his forearm" may refer to length or width of the forearm (the latter implies .1 meters, the former .5 meter.) which may suggest between 450-2300 kg of material was affected. It is not known whether it was melting or vaporization, but melting seems likely given general melta descriptons and the absence of a larrge quantity of superheated rock vapor (as opposed to caves of ice) or superheated fragments. This would imply many hundreds (800+) if not thousands (1000-5000+) megajoules (an estimate, admittedly, but not varying by a dramatic amount, and consistent with other descriptions of capability.)

Page 340 - Amberley mentions her displacer field, and how it teleports her out of the way if she takes a strong enough hit (most of the time.)

Page 345 - Krak missiles striking Chimaeras mainly do "soft" damage - taking out treads or weak points, but leaving most of the armor un-penetrated.

Page 360 - AMberley's bolt pistol exploded the chest of a Genestealer hybrid in PDF armor in "a rain of red entrials and shredded gold armour."

Cain takes a subsequent hybrid with a shot to the head, "blowing the fellow's brains out through the back of his skull". While not precisely "exploding" the head, this is close enough. At the very least, it implies partial (explosive) vaproziation and probable boiling of at least some of the water/fluids in the skull, as well as some cooking (not incineration, though) Should be worth a few hundred kilojoules at least by boiling, cauterization (a known las-weapon effect) and partial vaporization (another known effect) of the brain alone (about half a kilo by itself) more if other (IIRC, an adult human skull weighs about a kilo, so the other components aside from skul and brain might be affected.) it may go as much as a megajoule or more (especially with significant vaporisation occurring.)

As a side note, the novel "Drakon" describes a similar effect from a "multi-megawatt" plasma pistol. Not exactly concrete proof in and of itself, but it is suggestive as supplementary evidence.

Page 361 -

The claws [of a purestrain Genestealer, presumably] I'd seen tear open Terminator armour as though it were a crusty meat pie were alreaddy slicing at her cape when its head exploded, showering her with an unpleasant organic residue, and leaving the body to topple to the floor. I looked up at the gallery aain and saw Sorel already seeking a fresh target for his long-las.

Sorel's long-las shot explodes a Purestrain Genestealer's head. Assuming normal human head mass (4-5 kg, although its probably at least 50% heavier due to the differencee in size.) and the usual "boiling/cauterization" effects, and ignoring vaporization, it requires at least a megajoule (probably several easily, given the factors I'm ignoring.) We also do not know if Sorel in this case is using a hot-shot powerpack or a regular one (but as I recall long-las are generally semiautomatic, so its probably a single shot.)

Page 362 - Genestealer patriarch "face to belly" with Cain - at least twice the height of a man.

Page 363 - Patriarch's natural armour is highly resilient to long-las bolts (althoguh its uncertain whether Sorel's are hotshot packs or not), but Cain's chainsword rather easily cuts into its flesh.

Page 364 - Jurgen shoves melta point-blank into the Patriarch's belly wound (from Cain's chainsword), and the entire midsection flashes to steam (vaporised water) and foul smelling "offal". It is evidently mortally wounded, but remains mostly intct (IE the blast does not cut it in half) Its hard to gauge precise effects, given that Kain was in hand to hand range of the Genestealer (and not severely harmed by the side effects), that the flesh was not noticably charred or incinerated, and the possibility that the patriarch's natural armour shell may have contained or redirected the effects away from Cain (hence why Jurgan stuck the melta into a wound, to bypass the lethal effects)] Assuming at least twice the mass (probably more like 3-4x) of a normal human and only the midsection affected (say around 50-60 kilos, at least) and ignoring vaporization in favor of boiling point alone we're probably talking at least 15-20 MJ at a bare-assed, end minimum (probably more like twice or three times that, once parrtial vaporization is facotred in, more if the body mass is grreater.)

Page 367 - a bolt pistol apparently explodes Sorel's head

Page 372 - Tau battlesuit missile launchers "shred and pulp" the genestealer PDF factions with "flame and shrapnel"

Page 373 - A bolt pistol shot explodes/impacts against Jurgen's carapace helmet (oversized), shattering a good deal of carapace but failing to penetrate (though knocking him backwards and unconsious.)

Page 375

The supercharged las-blast screamed through the air between us, blasting a smoking crater through the left side of the governer's chest, and for a moment I felt the exultation of victory.

Hellgun blast blows a "crater" through the left side of a genestealer (the governor's) chest. Implied size of the woud is large (say, maybe fist-sized at least, perhaps more) - calcing it is difficult, but largely unneccessary in this case. Wound size is implied similar to but smaller than what the tau plasma weapon did to the aforementioned stocky guy.

page 375 - the chitin plates of the governer seem to have resisted the full force of the hellgun blast (or staunched the wound anyhow.)

Page 384 - the Tau evidently remain unaware of the genestealre implants and their infiltration roles/capabilities, given they medevac the tau pathfinders that had been captured belowground.

Page 392

"Blanks are like anti-psykers," she explained. "They can't be affected by psykers or warp entities. They block telepathic communication."

- Amberley describes the nature and abilities of psychic blanks. Uses are implied below.

Page 394 - Amberley implies that Inquisitor Radicals, or "Ordo malleus" fanatics consider blanks "highly sought after" prizes (the latter as "daemon cannon fodder".)

[Setzer]

IIRC, Caves of Ice mentions that Cain's augmentic fingers don't shiver with his real ones. That means that involuntary movements are not conveyed by augmentics, at least for shivering.

[defanatic]

In any case, its still another indication that the tau plasma weaponry was much more powerful than hellguns or lasguns (and tau plasma weapons are less powerful than Imperial equivalents, according to the TAu codex.)

He points out that the weapons firing could not be Imperial plasma weapons, because they fired too quickly. Plasma guns fire slowly.

[Connor MacLeod]

In any case, its still another indication that the tau plasma weaponry was much more powerful than hellguns or lasguns (and tau plasma weapons are less powerful than Imperial equivalents, according to the TAu codex.)

He points out that the weapons firing could not be Imperial plasma weapons, because they fired too quickly. Plasma guns fire slowly.

Imperial plasma weapons (as he notes are also very unreliable and have severe cooling problems. This is in part due to their excessive power outputs. The tau (as the Codex: Tau book indicates) accept a lower damage potential for increasd reliability and greater stability/safety than Imperium Plasma weapons. (part of it is of course technology, since tau plasma weapons are more compact than Imperium ones, ,but only partly.)

Imperium plasma weapons are rapid fire as well, they're just not as rapid fire (nor sustainably so) as tau plasma weapons are (Again, its the reliability issue. prolonged periods of use for Imperium plasma weapons only increases their unreliability.)

[Lost Soal]

Page 345 - Krak missiles striking Chimaeras mainly do "soft" damage - taking out treads or weak points, but leaving most of the armor un-penetrated.

This is an odd one, since the Ghosts books are full of instances where missile launchers are used against Leman Russ' and penetrate, yet this is suggesting they cant be used. That even goes against their fluff descriptions in wargear books. In Armour of Contempt they had to shoot at distances of less than 100m to stand a chance.

Could the distance be an issue he wasn't considering?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

It does fit with earlier fluff (which may or may not have since been contradicted) where krak warheads implode and shatter pieces of the target rather than penetrating like most conventional AT warheads.

[Stormbringer]

Page 345 - Krak missiles striking Chimaeras mainly do "soft" damage - taking out treads or weak points, but leaving most of the armor un-penetrated.

This is an odd one, since the Ghosts books are full of instances where missile launchers are used against Leman Russ' and penetrate, yet this is suggesting they cant be used. That even goes against their fluff descriptions in wargear books. In Armour of Contempt they had to shoot at distances of less than 100m to stand a chance.

It's more likely that the tread-fethers used by the Tanith and others during the Sabbat Crusade are not necessarily the same make of krak missle. There is a time difference of six centuries and a half a galaxy of difference to consider.

Furthermore, we're talking about a PDF unit which is poorly equipped compared to a frontline Guard regiment. Cain makes references to the inferior kit of the PDF in general and the Gravalax PDF in particular many times. It's quite possible that this extends to their using a less efficient, less effective make of krak missle.